The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #1291
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    So I've been pondering this overnight.

    The problem with oppression as an excuse for violence is that there's never been a society on earth that's free from oppression. Certainly 19th century America wasn't. Sparta wasn't. Rome wasn't. None of the European countries were. There's always something that needs fixing.

    More problematic than oppression itself is the perception of oppression -- has there ever been a child who didn't think, at some point, his parents were being mean and unfair? And in marriage, even the most committed egalitarians can find themselves in an unequal situation.

    That's why oppression doesn't work as a pretext. Because if it was there would never be any human society, or any human relationship, in which we couldn't be justified in killing the other people in it. And you can't build a family, or a tribe, or a country, or a world that way.

    So you've got move the goalposts for oppression waay back. Something like as follows:

    1) The oppression has to be truly intolerable. For example, you're being exterminated, or you're being sexually used against your will (which Hilgya wasn't, by word of Giant). In some historical situations I can't site on forum but do exist, slavery itself was not considered reason enough for revolt -- not in the ancient world, where almost everyone was a slave of one sort or another.

    The rest follows from just war theory:

    2) The proposed violence has to have a reasonable chance of correcting the evil.

    3) The cure must not cause more harm than the original disease. There were many revolutions against oppression in the 20th century, and the result killed millions of people
    in artificial famine, extermination , and purges . 11 million people dead from those three incidents alone, not counting thousands of intellectuals rotting away in rural labour camps for no greater crime than having a degree. And we haven't even touched on the casualties caused by wars of liberation and civil wars themselves.

    4) The war must have a reasonable chance of success. What's worse than oppression? A losing war against oppression that results in collective punishments and mass executions. There have been a lot more failed slave revolts in history than successful ones. IIRC, the Romans crucified a man on every mile of the Appian way after the Spartacus revolt to drive the point home.

    So -- there are circumstances when warfare and violence against intolerable oppression exist. But it's not nearly as common as people think they are. That's why laws and courts exist -- it's a way for people who think the system has aggrieved them to gain redress. Convince enough people to agree with you, the problem can be solved without bloodshed.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    I love you !!


    sch
    Do NOT argue with idiots - they drag you on their level and beat you with experience

  2. - Top - End - #1292
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by schmunzel View Post
    Next thing Ivan might have offered her a comfy cushion

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnS49c9KZw8

    terrible, cruel man, indeed

    sch
    Re-read my post. There was no one making the claim to which your response applies.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

  3. - Top - End - #1293
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kereminde View Post
    You got Romeo and Juliet out of that? I mean, I can see where one would, but it doesn't scan for me. There's just barely enough to qualify them as "two households, alike in dignity" (haha . . . no) but they are not the same "star-crossed lovers", headed for a poor end all too soon due to miscommunication and rash action.
    Rich literally published a separate comic out of the story of Romeo and Juliet starring Haley and Elan titled "Haleo and Julelan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kereminde View Post
    N.B. A foot massage is not necessarily a request for intimacy, therefore labeling it as "similar requests" instills a charged meaning here which is not separated at all.
    The pre-text of marriage, or indeed any potential relationship, makes it intimate. If you go on a date and say "Hey want a foot massage?", that's most likely getting taken as a request for sex.
    Last edited by a1chemi; 2017-11-17 at 05:43 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #1294
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by luna the cat View Post
    No doctor is touching me if we don't have a clear (professional) relationship built on trust and understanding.
    Speaking from personal experience here, you'd be amazed what you'll let an unknown doc touch if **** goes south fast, no matter how awkward the situation may be otherwise. I trusted whoever the hell said they could fix it, didn't much care for the lack of previous relationship.
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  5. - Top - End - #1295
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    d6 Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post



    Nah. I'm better than he is.

    You see, my focus is on ending oppression. Not on pampering my ego after I went right there and screwed up. So... Yeah. I'm not Eugene Greenhilt. I might be quite a bit like Hilgya, though, which I would gladly take as a compliment - and I do mean it, I see a few parallels between me and her (though I was never forced into marriage, of course). And yes, I do believe she is better than Eugene.
    youre not campaigning for ending opression
    You are campaigning to allow people being cowardly murdered for no reason.

    And I do not argue that dwarven society is as it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Re-read my post. There was no one making the claim to which your response applies.
    true!


    sch
    Last edited by schmunzel; 2017-11-17 at 05:44 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by luna the cat View Post
    See, not all of us are privileged to have good insurance plans, so if I am paying 250 out of pocket for a doctor's visit, I want to be sure he's not going to be an ******* or gross.
    That's exactly my point. Not all of us have insurance plans at all. Which narrows down options quite a lot. I mean, I could in theory not go, that's been somewhat my modus operandi in general, but now this is about you and I and not about the circumstances. Should we drop the tangent, or do we agree this is also a coerced event and I should be justified for poisoning my doctor with a literal gallon of something toxic? (Sarcasm, by the way.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Hilgya was not at all careful about what she revealed to Durkon. Not only did she sum up her actions in a very frank way ("I just gave up and ran away from all my responsibilities to the clan and abandoned my marriage"), but she doesn't hide the fact that she attempted to murder Ivan. We're meant to view Hilgya's characterization of Ivan with amused skepticism, but it's because Hilgya is mistaken, not because she's lying by either omission or commission.
    True. Most of the time this comic has characters who are very . . . very up-front about themselves, but it doesn't stop things from being shifted and moved around . . . I mean, this isn't the first character who's been through this process and I really doubt she'll be the last. We're meant, intended to, take the scene one way but inevitably there is this disconnect where some people read something else into it. Which is where we get discussions like these (for better or worse) where we look at things and try to determine whether any other message could have been intended.

    And we are discussing a cleric paladin of Loki, by the way. Deception and trickery is sort of his thing. Be careful what you take at face value.

    Quote Originally Posted by a1chemi View Post
    The pre-text of marriage, or indeed any potential relationship, makes it intimate. If you go on a date and say "Hey want a foot massage?", that's most likely getting taken as a request for sex.
    That can literally be stretched to cover anything as being likely as being taken as prelude or euphemism for something else. All you need to do is have one person take it as such, even if there wasn't an intent there in the first place. "Want to sit on the couch and watch CSI?" "Oooh, you pervert." "We're having pizza for dinner." "Oh stop it, not in front of the kids."

    In fact, such is often one of the tools of low comedy, making something utterly mundane out into being something other than it is, an innuendo for something it could to potentially be. Where it becomes comedic is when one side takes it at face value instead of the value of innuendo. Where it becomes tragic is when this leads people to believe any sort of offer is (not merely "may be") a pretext for something more, so long as it's a married or dating couple. That's how you end up having the swing back to comedy where something innocent is offered and taken as a pretext, and reacted to with shock and anger at "how dare you?!".

    I personally detest this, because it's managed to add another layer of code and innuendo to something which really . . . really . . . didn't need any more.
    Last edited by Kereminde; 2017-11-17 at 05:52 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #1297
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by luna the cat View Post
    No doctor is touching me if we don't have a clear (professional) relationship built on trust and understanding.
    What? Seriously? Built? Who told you that if you have to get touched by a doctor you'll have had time to build any kind of relationship? Most of the doctors that have touched me are people I'd never met before...

  8. - Top - End - #1298
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kereminde View Post
    Why do I get the feeling we're about to loop around from painting Eugene Greenhilt as Something-Evil into Tarquin as not-Evil? I mean, if we do that'd be hilarious.
    I respect Tarquin for his clear cut agenda

    There would be no fooling around with foot rubbing while he was round


    sch
    Do NOT argue with idiots - they drag you on their level and beat you with experience

  9. - Top - End - #1299
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCacaobean View Post
    What? Seriously? Built? Who told you that if you have to get touched by a doctor you'll have had time to build any kind of relationship? Most of the doctors that have touched me are people I'd never met before...

    I think they don't generally go straight for the sensitive areas though. Usually you get some time to feel them out (as a professional) before they grab your nethers.

    Also there are gloves and a general air of professionalism.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a1chemi View Post
    I think they don't generally go straight for the sensitive areas though. Usually you get some time to feel them out (as a professional) before they grab your nethers.

    Also there are gloves and a general air of professionalism.
    My point is quite a few of the times I had to be touched, it was an emergency. So, yeah they went strait for my nethers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kereminde View Post
    cleric paladin of Loki.
    Hilgya's a cleric. Unless I'm missing something else you mean...
    Last edited by SilverCacaobean; 2017-11-17 at 05:54 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #1301
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCacaobean View Post
    My point is quite a few of the times I had to be touched, it was an emergency. So, yeah they went strait for my nethers
    Please accept my condolences on the kind of emergency with which you seem to have needed to deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Please accept my condolences on the kind of emergency with which you seem to have needed to deal.
    Don't worry, no condolences needed
    Last edited by SilverCacaobean; 2017-11-17 at 05:59 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a1chemi View Post
    I think they don't generally go straight for the sensitive areas though. Usually you get some time to feel them out (as a professional) before they grab your nethers.

    Also there are gloves and a general air of professionalism.
    None of which has prevented . . . remarkably scummy individuals from having used this to their advantage. Of course, those are the exceptions and not the rule. So too are the ones who you build a relationship and trust with before having your heart literally open for them (instead of figuratively open) so you know you can trust. The general understanding is they're going to be a professional about it at the bare minimum, so it should be perfectly fine.

    We're not necessarily talking about those people, at all. We're talking about the few who ruined it for the rest of them. Which is . . . an unfortunate case, but it is so . . . often how we wind up discussing things where the exceptions and outliers are ones who wind up setting the bar for everyone else. It's a shame nowadays people assume the worst and don't even expect the best instead of hoping for the best and having a plan for the worst just in case.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCacaobean View Post
    Hilgya's a cleric. Unless I'm missing something else you mean...
    It's been my new joke so to speak. Since there was a lot of talk about conclusions without evidence, I decided to just leap on the most outlandish one I could think of and decide to make up evidence to support it and then claim it is obvious if you paid attention to the two panels we got any clue of what was going on in this strip.

  14. - Top - End - #1304
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by luna the cat View Post
    Catholic school here, so yeah, I know that, but OoTS is very not an old testament setting, Western Continent that worships Ereshkigal and others aside.

    Actually, that brought to mind an anecdote. I was homeless for a time a while ago and would go to a christian charity that did food, showers and other things. They also would ask if they could wash your feet, as a sort of "we are living like early christians" thing (they were evangelicals IIRC). So I refused each time, but they'd ask each time, and it felt very patronizing, and mostly for them. I mean, I am sure for some people a foot massage is a very nice thing, but it felt more so they themselves could feel like they were living more like early christians. So maybe part of the reason I've gotten heated in this thread is that unwanted foot massages are associated with a pretty bad time in my life.

    Anyway I think feet are gross and I don't understand why anyone would want a stranger to touch them, and I'd only let someone touch my feet if we were "together" and that was something they wanted to do for some reason and I wanted to indulge them in their... foot thing. There's no situation I can imagine where I'd think of someone touching my feet as a favor unless I had an injury and it was a doctor.
    Other people might not realize that you see it that way.
    When you presume that you have a relationship you might do it to do someone a favor.
    Good intent has to be worth something


    That being said I hope you are doing better now. Not having a home sucks. Hard.

    sch
    Last edited by schmunzel; 2017-11-17 at 06:34 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kereminde View Post
    It's been my new joke so to speak. Since there was a lot of talk about conclusions without evidence, I decided to just leap on the most outlandish one I could think of and decide to make up evidence to support it and then claim it is obvious if you paid attention to the two panels we got any clue of what was going on in this strip.
    Oh, hadn't noticed that, sorry for the "correction".

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a1chemi View Post
    I think they don't generally go straight for the sensitive areas though. Usually you get some time to feel them out (as a professional) before they grab your nethers.

    Also there are gloves and a general air of professionalism.
    Basically this; I mean it's not a rare thing for an OB/GYN to have a bad/uneven reputation. Mostly 85% women now in the profession, but that wasn't the case until a few decades ago.

    And this is why TSA uses same gender agents for pat-downs or asks if the passenger would like a private screening, and explains every step of the screening process ("I'm going to touch the back of your leg, is that ok?") The fact that the pat-down has to be done in order for me to fly doesn't mean I can't say that I would be preferred to be screened by another agent if something about them makes me uncomfortable.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by luna the cat View Post
    And this is why TSA uses same gender agents for pat-downs or asks if the passenger would like a private screening, and explains every step of the screening process ("I'm going to touch the back of your leg, is that ok?")
    I don't know what kind of TSA agents you've dealt with, but mine don't give a hoot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I don't know what kind of TSA agents you've dealt with, but mine don't give a hoot.
    i don't understand what you mean by this

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by luna the cat View Post
    i don't understand what you mean by this
    Non same-gender TSA agent. No "I'm going to touch your leg now" before they search. Just "step over here," and frisk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
    In a Forum full of dorks, you are truly King Dork. Long may you reign!
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  20. - Top - End - #1310
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Non same-gender TSA agent. No "I'm going to touch your leg now" before they search. Just "step over here," and frisk.
    It might have to do with me being a woman and constantly and visibly nervous while in public
    Last edited by luna the cat; 2017-11-17 at 06:42 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Non same-gender TSA agent. No "I'm going to touch your leg now" before they search. Just "step over here," and frisk.
    It's hard to argue something never happens, but as I understand, same gender is the procedure.

    I've only had pat down once or twice and it was as luna described. Every person I've seen being pat-down has been the same gender as the patter. Pat-downer? Anyway...

    How did we get on this topic? Ob yea foot rubs. I think this all just shows that touching other people in pretty much any way can be a demand or grab for intimacy.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by luna the cat View Post
    That is... not the URL I would have chosen.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a1chemi View Post
    I think this all just shows that touching other people in pretty much any way can be a demand or grab for intimacy.
    But is it necessarily a prelude to something else, or is sometimes a cigar just a cigar?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Cigars will kill you.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by schmunzel View Post
    I respect Tarquin for his clear cut agenda

    There would be no fooling around with foot rubbing while he was round


    sch
    May I please quote this in my forum signature?
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmunzel View Post
    I respect Tarquin for his clear cut agenda

    There would be no fooling around with foot rubbing while he was round

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JumboWheat01 View Post
    Gettin' the baby some adventuring experience while he's still young. *sniff* Such a beautiful thing.
    XP's are awarded based on Average Party Level, so by carrying around a Lvel 0 infant she is lowering her APL and ensuring she gets more XP's from each fight, so she can level up faster.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Also, to @Luna the cat, while I can understand why the text might be interpreted differently, I just want to clarify that my interpretation (which I think is fairly similar to that of several other people here) of the "foot massage" flash-back panel, and what Hilgya said in response, is as follows.
    First, I am assuming the flash-back panels basically represent what really happened.
    Second, while I don't think Hylgia is lying per se, she does seem to be presenting her situation as being as bad as she can make it sound.
    The first panel (with the crossbow) does seem to clearly show that she had absolutely no choice in who she would marry, and was threatened with force if she didn't marry. We don't see a crossbow behind Ivan's back, so presumably he didn't have to be PHYSICALLY forced to go to the wedding. However, she explicitly says that she doesn't know him, and I see no particular reason to assume that he somehow knew her. If Dwarven society were portrayed as consistently patriarchal, then I could see more of an argument that maybe he had randomly seen her and decided he wanted to marry her, but Rich hasn't really portrayed Dwarven society that way, as far as I can tell. He made the high priest of Thor female, and put Durkon's mom in an authority position in the army. Based on how Rich has portrayed Dwarven society in the rest of the comic, what I would consider the most reasonable assumption from the flash back is that Ivan had no more choice than Hylgia, and would have been married at cross-bow point if he had dissented like Hylgia had.

    With that as my interpretation of the first flash-back, I would view the second flash-back panel as two people, neither of whom had any more choice about the situation they are in than the other, one of whom is content with the situation, and one of whom is not. Hylgia says that he "never stopped hounding me with his endless questions". Given that she is seemingly portraying her situation in the bleakest light possible, I think we would know if he was continually asking for intimate touch, because "he kept asking to touch me" or something like that would sound worse than simply "hounding me with his endless questions". Since (1) we only see one of those questions, which is not repeated more
    than once, (2) the request is not necessarily sexual in nature, and(3) the joke of the panel is probably (as far as I can tell) meant to be "Hylgia is describing the events of her life as worse than they actually were" (along with "Ivan is a total idiot"), I believe that the most obvious (and probably intended) interpretation of the panel is that the questions he "hounded" her with were things like "how are you feeling today" and "can I get something for you while I'm at the store", and "would you like me to make dinner" and other stuff like that, rather than asking her over and over again "would you like a foot massage" and other potentially suggestive things. And for the record, I would probably be fine with a platonic friend who I'm not attracted to giving me a foot massage.

    Obviously you don't read it that way, but I just wanted to make it clear how I view that strip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmunzel View Post
    I respect Tarquin for his clear cut agenda

    There would be no fooling around with foot rubbing while he was round

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pnewman View Post
    XP's are awarded based on Average Party Level, so by carrying around a Lvel 0 infant she is lowering her APL and ensuring she gets more XP's from each fight, so she can level up faster.
    Don't cohorts get only half XP share, without adjusting the level of the party?
    OK, even then, sharing the XPs of highlevel adventuring mom should make Durkon-jr level up pretty fast ^^

  29. - Top - End - #1319
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Aquillion's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JumboWheat01 View Post
    Gettin' the baby some adventuring experience while he's still young. *sniff* Such a beautiful thing.
    What is that XP going into, though? It might seem cute now, but taking levels of Baby is just going to hurt his progression in the long term.

  30. - Top - End - #1320
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm curious if I got this right. There's a 40 page debate going on which at it's core revolves around:
    "I like character X, so X can't be evil, because... umm... my mommy said that was bad I guess?!". Sided with a bit of "Y must be Evil because I really don't like Y! There's no way a Good character could be someone I'd detest".

    Which has happened for every single character so far that dared bust the mold of Good = Everything Nice Evvar and Evil = Cartoonish Evil.


    Because I seriously don't get it. Tarquin was an awesome character, and absolutely magnificiently evil. And so is Belkar. I don't care for Eugene much, but I can accept that he is or thinks he is Lawful Good. Can't quite see it myself, but maybe one day we'll see how that shakes up.

    Digging Helgya coming back, it was mindblowingly beautiful. Really liking her atm, and convinced she is evil. And I have no problem with that. Just looking forward to how the story will go on.


    And yes I'm totally ignoring the whole rule implication of D&D Good/Evil Turn Undead. Because it really don't matter at all. I look forward to seeing what that's about in the future. Or not.

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