Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

[Velaryon]

Still haven't had a chance to pick this up yet, but I have a question. Does this finish the Stormlight Archive (other than future connections to the rest of the Cosmere), or will there be a fourth book?

[Douglas]

The Stormlight Archive was announced before even The Way of Kings was published as being planned at 10 books long. I haven't heard anything about that changing.

So yes, there will be a fourth book, plus six more to follow.

[Seerow]

The Stormlight Archive was announced before even The Way of Kings was published as being planned at 10 books long. I haven't heard anything about that changing.

So yes, there will be a fourth book, plus six more to follow.

Worth noting that it is planned as two sequences of 5 books with a time jump in between where the main characters switch. So as of oathbringer we're about halfway through the current Arc

[Douglas]

I would like one very specific spoiler from someone who's read the whole book, please: Is the secret of the Recreance - the reason why the ancient Radiants abandoned their oaths - revealed in Oathbringer? Just a yes or no, I'll read it in the book when I get to it if the answer is yes.

[Tvtyrant]

I would like one very specific spoiler from someone who's read the whole book, please: Is the secret of the Recreance - the reason why the ancient Radiants abandoned their oaths - revealed in Oathbringer? Just a yes or no, I'll read it in the book when I get to it if the answer is yes.

Spoiler: Yes or No for people who want to know.

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Yes.

Unrelated: I enjoyed the book a lot, but I felt that

Spoiler

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Kaladin got shafted through nearly the entire book. Family reunion is meh, he doesn't get the girl, he has some sort of breakdown about the next oath, etc.

[Seerow]

Spoiler: Yes or No for people who want to know.

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Yes.

Unrelated: I enjoyed the book a lot, but I felt that

Spoiler

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Kaladin got shafted through nearly the entire book. Family reunion is meh, he doesn't get the girl, he has some sort of breakdown about the next oath, etc.

Spoiler: Discussion of tvtyrant's answer, full book spoilers ahoy

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The big secret that caused the recreance actually seemed like something of a let-down to me. We had long since guessed humans weren't native to Roshar, that being the big secret just feels off. That being said, I feel like the characters focusing on that is a misdirect. The thing that stuck out to me was the revelation that Humans had destroyed their previous planet with Surgebinding. That requires power on a whole other level compared to what we are seeing so far in the series, even Dalinar's Unity. I strongly suspect it was less about Humans being foreign invaders, and more about how/why the previous planet was destroyed. Given that Honor was allegedly raving mad by the time the recreance happened, and when the secret had been discovered in other generations it didn't break the Radiants after he had a chance to talk to them, I feel like there's other factors at play here we're still not privvy to.



As far as Kaladin's overall story arc, I didn't mind. Kaladin was the main star of book 1, and took a prominent leading role in book 2. This isn't a series about a single main protagonist, it's an ensemble, Kaladin having a book where he takes more of a backseat is fine. I do feel like his family reunion could have used a bit more exploration, but besides that I was fine with it. I was actually happy Kaladin didn't level up again. Going on a firm 1 oath per book just makes things a little too predictable imo. The main thing I feel cheated on was the Kaladin vs Amaram showdown. Kaladin was hamstrung throughout the fight by needing to protect Dalinar from random Fused mooks flying in, leaving Amaram able to take advantage, and then Amaram gets surprise headshotted by someone else. Yes, sometimes Kaladin needs someone else to save him... but it didn't feel like a particularly satisfying resolution to the guy who set so much trouble into motion.

[Douglas]

Spoiler: Yes or No for people who want to know.

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Yes.

Thank you.

Just finished part 3.

Spoiler

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I'd been wondering for a while whether saving Kholinar would be the climax of part 3, or of the whole book. The "army through the Oathgate" plan just seemed too tidy and perfect, even with an Unmade or two in the way. I did not call the queen being that thoroughly complicit, though, or Elhokar dying. There have been all those hints of him being a potential Radiant even from book 1, it was a surprise to see that cut short.

In other news, thank you Hoid/Wit, for finally talking some much needed sense at Shallan. Suppressing your memories is not a healthy coping mechanism.

I wondered a bit, when a chapter epigraph revealed that it's the Fourth Ideal that grants Shardplate, whether Kaladin would be getting that at a climactic turnaround moment in the fight to save the city. Still time for that to happen in the counterattack later, though.

I'm really not sure whether Sja-anat is being honest about having switched sides. Her warning in this case was genuine, but that could easily be part of a longer deception plan.

[Seerow]

Thank you.

Just finished part 3.

Spoiler

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I'd been wondering for a while whether saving Kholinar would be the climax of part 3, or of the whole book. The "army through the Oathgate" plan just seemed too tidy and perfect, even with an Unmade or two in the way. I did not call the queen being that thoroughly complicit, though, or Elhokar dying. There have been all those hints of him being a potential Radiant even from book 1, it was a surprise to see that cut short.

In other news, thank you Hoid/Wit, for finally talking some much needed sense at Shallan. Suppressing your memories is not a healthy coping mechanism.

I wondered a bit, when a chapter epigraph revealed that it's the Fourth Ideal that grants Shardplate, whether Kaladin would be getting that at a climactic turnaround moment in the fight to save the city. Still time for that to happen in the counterattack later, though.

I'm really not sure whether Sja-anat is being honest about having switched sides. Her warning in this case was genuine, but that could easily be part of a longer deception plan.

Spoiler: Part 3

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Yeah Elhokar's death rocked me more than really anything else in the book besides Eshonai literally being dead in a ditch.

The Epigraph you mention threw me off a bit, because my understanding was Kaladin is at the 3rd ideal as of the end of WoR, and as of that same time Shallan is a step ahead of him. So in theory if the 4th ideal grants Shard Plate, why does Shallan not have it? Or does it vary between orders?

Also yeah Elhokar's wife being bad news we knew. But literally bonding one of the unmade is a level of crazypants I really hadn't anticipated at all.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: Discussion of tvtyrant's answer, full book spoilers ahoy

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The big secret that caused the recreance actually seemed like something of a let-down to me. We had long since guessed humans weren't native to Roshar, that being the big secret just feels off. That being said, I feel like the characters focusing on that is a misdirect. The thing that stuck out to me was the revelation that Humans had destroyed their previous planet with Surgebinding. That requires power on a whole other level compared to what we are seeing so far in the series, even Dalinar's Unity. I strongly suspect it was less about Humans being foreign invaders, and more about how/why the previous planet was destroyed. Given that Honor was allegedly raving mad by the time the recreance happened, and when the secret had been discovered in other generations it didn't break the Radiants after he had a chance to talk to them, I feel like there's other factors at play here we're still not privvy to.



As far as Kaladin's overall story arc, I didn't mind. Kaladin was the main star of book 1, and took a prominent leading role in book 2. This isn't a series about a single main protagonist, it's an ensemble, Kaladin having a book where he takes more of a backseat is fine. I do feel like his family reunion could have used a bit more exploration, but besides that I was fine with it. I was actually happy Kaladin didn't level up again. Going on a firm 1 oath per book just makes things a little too predictable imo. The main thing I feel cheated on was the Kaladin vs Amaram showdown. Kaladin was hamstrung throughout the fight by needing to protect Dalinar from random Fused mooks flying in, leaving Amaram able to take advantage, and then Amaram gets surprise headshotted by someone else. Yes, sometimes Kaladin needs someone else to save him... but it didn't feel like a particularly satisfying resolution to the guy who set so much trouble into motion.

Spoiler: Reply to Reply

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Recreance seemed to me that they realized their oaths are what make them inevitably destroy the world. Somehow they are going to realize the final oath makes them choose a path of destruction or break their bond.

Amaram being a follower of the evil guy seemed like a mistake to me. It took away from the point of his character, to show that ends justify the means is terrible in practice, but if he is actually an apocalypse worshipping dude then the lesson becomes "don't follow Sauron" which is meaningless. Dalinar did that part much better with his addiction to being a khornate.

[Douglas]

Spoiler: Part 3

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Yeah Elhokar's death rocked me more than really anything else in the book besides Eshonai literally being dead in a ditch.

The Epigraph you mention threw me off a bit, because my understanding was Kaladin is at the 3rd ideal as of the end of WoR, and as of that same time Shallan is a step ahead of him. So in theory if the 4th ideal grants Shard Plate, why does Shallan not have it? Or does it vary between orders?

Also yeah Elhokar's wife being bad news we knew. But literally bonding one of the unmade is a level of crazypants I really hadn't anticipated at all.

Spoiler

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I thought Shallan was at the 3rd Ideal, though my memory's a bit fuzzy on exactly how I got that impression. Acknowledging that her Shardblade is Pattern rather than a normal one as the 2nd, and then the full memory of the fiasco with her family as the 3rd, or something like that maybe? Granted, this doesn't fit with her having a Shardblade before then, but maybe the traumatic experience (and subsequent repression of memory) made her backslide but without removing the abilities?

[Actana]

Spoiler: Discussion of tvtyrant's answer, full book spoilers ahoy

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The big secret that caused the recreance actually seemed like something of a let-down to me. We had long since guessed humans weren't native to Roshar, that being the big secret just feels off. That being said, I feel like the characters focusing on that is a misdirect. The thing that stuck out to me was the revelation that Humans had destroyed their previous planet with Surgebinding. That requires power on a whole other level compared to what we are seeing so far in the series, even Dalinar's Unity. I strongly suspect it was less about Humans being foreign invaders, and more about how/why the previous planet was destroyed. Given that Honor was allegedly raving mad by the time the recreance happened, and when the secret had been discovered in other generations it didn't break the Radiants after he had a chance to talk to them, I feel like there's other factors at play here we're still not privvy to.



As far as Kaladin's overall story arc, I didn't mind. Kaladin was the main star of book 1, and took a prominent leading role in book 2. This isn't a series about a single main protagonist, it's an ensemble, Kaladin having a book where he takes more of a backseat is fine. I do feel like his family reunion could have used a bit more exploration, but besides that I was fine with it. I was actually happy Kaladin didn't level up again. Going on a firm 1 oath per book just makes things a little too predictable imo. The main thing I feel cheated on was the Kaladin vs Amaram showdown. Kaladin was hamstrung throughout the fight by needing to protect Dalinar from random Fused mooks flying in, leaving Amaram able to take advantage, and then Amaram gets surprise headshotted by someone else. Yes, sometimes Kaladin needs someone else to save him... but it didn't feel like a particularly satisfying resolution to the guy who set so much trouble into motion.

Spoiler: Further spoiler discussion

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it stated that humans brought Odium to Roshar and only later started venerating Honor? Wouldn't that mean that the powers that destroyed their previous home were those of Odium's "radiants", not the ones we're currently seeing? Which would mean in turn that it's not the Knights Radiant who are even at risk of destroying the world, it's the voidspren.

Or did they have both Odium and Honor radiants among them from the beginning?

[GrayDeath]

While you can enjoy each Cosmere series in isolation, a number of them make more sense in the broader context. Especially the Stormlight Archive. At least one other Cosmere novel is basically a prequel for the Stormlight Archive novels, and the inter-Cosmere interactions are so prevalent that not having the context really does limit how much you'll enjoy it.

As I said: if you don't want to deal with the other Cosmere stuff, you might be better off reading something else. Nothing wrong with that! But it is something you have to keep in mind.

Spoiler: Other Cosmere Stuff

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If there was only one other Cosmere novel you could read to help understand the Stormlight Archive, it's be Warbreaker, which was expressly written as a way to introduce some characters that occur in the Stormlight Archive, although only tangentially at the moment. Three characters from Oathbringer originally appeared in Warbreaker.

Also, as for the complaint that the Stormlight characters aren't asking questions of Azure... why would they? The majority of them don't know that other worlds are even a thing.

Thanks for mentioning it, I had Warbreaker here and waiting to be read anyway, now I`m gonna do that while waiting for Book 3 to arrive.

[Douglas]

Spoiler: Ending

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All Hail Queen Jasnah!

*cough*

Finished the book just now. I'll have more comments to post later.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: Ending

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All Hail Queen Jasnah!

*cough*

Finished the book just now. I'll have more comments to post later.

Spoiler

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I was actually sad she lived. I like Jasnah, but this series is getting to marvel levels of immortality.

Except the king of course.

[Shadow of the Sun]

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I was actually sad she lived. I like Jasnah, but this series is getting to marvel levels of immortality.

Except the king of course.

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At least every character that's survived stuff like this (except Szeth, at which point there was almost literally Deus Ex Machina...) has a justified reason for doing so, rather than random people being retconned as having survived against earlier characterization.

Actually, one of the things that I appreciated about this book is that Eshonai is dead, if we're not counting some Odium-inspired voidspren shenanigans, rather than her being somehow alive. It also let us look more into Venli's character, which is nice, too.

[Talanic]

Spoiler: Reply to Reply

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Recreance seemed to me that they realized their oaths are what make them inevitably destroy the world. Somehow they are going to realize the final oath makes them choose a path of destruction or break their bond.

Amaram being a follower of the evil guy seemed like a mistake to me. It took away from the point of his character, to show that ends justify the means is terrible in practice, but if he is actually an apocalypse worshipping dude then the lesson becomes "don't follow Sauron" which is meaningless. Dalinar did that part much better with his addiction to being a khornate.

Spoiler: Reply to Reply to Reply

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Odium has been talking to Dalinar for less than two months, but explicitly (page 1131) contacted Dalinar before Amaram. He was so self-serving, so willing to justify anything for power that he fell to Odium's offers in a matter of weeks.

Spoiler: Gloating

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I derive significant satisfaction from puzzling things out in advance. If you search these very boards, somewhere waaaay back near when it first came out I made a post about The Way of Kings. In it, I noted that horses, humans and birds (well, chickens) didn't seem to fit with the rest of the world. I didn't know about the Cosmere yet (it was my first brush with Sanderson) and I continued with a guess that Shardplate and Shardblades were technologically based (okay, that bit was way off) and the residents of Roshar were unwilling colonists on an alien planet.

Selectively speaking, nailed it.

[The New Bruceski]

Spoiler: knights' oath speculation

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Given Keladin's breakdown, I believe his fourth oath is along the lines of "I will move on from those I fail to protect in order to save the ones I can." It was building right up to that and I was happy to see the subversion of him not having a climactic breakthrough.

Spoiler: general book thoughts

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Sanderson doesn't write very subtle, but dang he writes satisfingly. The almost hyperbolic character personalities let him shift viewpoints in a busy scene like that end battle without any difficulty or confusion.

Elhokar being courted by the Cryptics has been clear from the first book when his paranoid mutterings included their Shadesmar form watching him. Great evolution into the role confronting his lie that he could be the King his father was, and then that death scene was gut-wrenching.

I'm not sure what to think of the Diagram. That note for bargaining with Odium implies that when he wrote it he KNEW that their interpretation-guided attempt to dethrone Dalinar would fail and that he'd resist Odium's trial despite their assumption otherwise. So is this still, as claimed, a way to salvage what he can from Odium's wrath or is the Diagram a poison pill, flawed in some way to help them actually win against him?

[Talanic]

Spoiler: general book thoughts

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I'm not sure what to think of the Diagram. That note for bargaining with Odium implies that when he wrote it he KNEW that their interpretation-guided attempt to dethrone Dalinar would fail and that he'd resist Odium's trial despite their assumption otherwise. So is this still, as claimed, a way to salvage what he can from Odium's wrath or is the Diagram a poison pill, flawed in some way to help them actually win against him?

Spoiler: My long, rambling take on the Diagram

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Cultivation is the real genius here. In fact, we have this entire war wrong - it's not the humans versus Odium, or Honor versus Odium, it's Cultivation fighting Odium from the shadows, and, currently, owning the heck out of him.

I think the three deities' view on foresight is a fine representation of their character and domain. Honor didn't look as much to the future because (although he could dream of a grand future or fear for the fate of the world) he was far more concerned with how things are. Odium can see the future, but since he's a god of passion and anger, he's far more likely to give weight to outcomes that he wants to happen and can be blindsided by an outcome he didn't want.

Cultivation, however, is all about creating a situation that will grow into what she wants, and she clearly doesn't want Odium to win.

What did Taravangian ask for? The capacity to save people from the coming troubles. The Nightwatcher made him have great intelligence and great compassion, but each is always the inverse of the other. Taravangian thinks that the periods of compassion are periods of weakness, and so does Odium. They are both wrong. Odium is going to keep on coming to Taravangian while he's in his 'weak' periods, going to bully him and force him to help the world's coming destruction - until some point when Taravangian's compassion is going to allow him to sacrifice himself to really put a spike in Odium's plans. And Odium will never see it coming because he doesn't think compassion can be a strength.

I'm not certain that Transcendent Taravangian planned that out. It's possible, partly because he can't have NOT known that Odium would beat him on a purely intellectual level. TT may have been the greatest genius ever, but he was still bound by humanity, and bound further by having only twenty hours to write the Diagram.

So that's one possibility - that Cultivation turned Taravangian into a weapon against Odium.

Another possibility, though. Taravangian only found the paragraph in the Diagram after Odium projected it out. How do we know the words that Taravangian read were actually his writing, and not something Odium added to the Diagram?

[Doran]

Spoiler

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It does seem as though Lift, Dalinar and Taravangian are all three weapons of Cultivation against Odium.
Likewise both Shallan and Kaladin are guided by Wit/Hoid.

I wonder if this is why we don't see Wit helping out Dalinar, Lift or Taravangian, as there's too much chance Cultivation OR Odium will notice him.

When encountering Dalinar 5 years ago, Cultivation mention this is the first time she's met with a mortal for centuries.
Lift met with the Nightwatcher and/or Cultivation 3 years ago.

I wonder if T met her more than 5 years ago?

That could mean that the Nightwatcher gave him the Compassion/Intelligence curse, but then Cultivation found out and made him create the Diagram.

[Douglas]

I have to say, I feel the infiltration of Cosmere stuff - a series I have not read and don't intend to read - really undercut Oathbreaker hard. It obvious that stuff from outside this intricately developed world is infiltrating it and breaks the complex rules setup for everyone in bizarre ways.

Spoiler

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In particular, it seems to really hurt the big reveal that humans aren't native to Roshar and effectively stole the land from the parsh/listeners by undercutting the moral quandary, since by that point it's already been revealed that there are other worlds where humans live, which offers a workaround.

Cosmere is not a series, it's a meta-series, and the Stormlight Archive is part of it, so you're technically already reading it. Roshar is one intricately developed world, there are several other intricately developed worlds in other series (some of which haven't been written and published yet), and they all fit together into the same intricately developed universe. The stuff from another world may not operate by the Roshar-specific rules of spren, Shardblades, Surges, and Knights Radiant and such, but those are special cases and applications of more general rules which the other-world stuff does follow. None of which you really need to know to follow the story Oathbreaker is telling.

As for the spoiler comment

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are you really suggesting that the population of Roshar evacuate to another world? There would be rather extreme logistical problems with that, and those would be thoroughly dwarfed by the problems involved in convincing everyone to do it. Even if you somehow dealt with those problems, you'd then be dumping an entire world's worth of refugees on another world. It's not even close to a feasible solution.

Spoiler: Discussion of tvtyrant's answer, full book spoilers ahoy

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The big secret that caused the recreance actually seemed like something of a let-down to me. We had long since guessed humans weren't native to Roshar, that being the big secret just feels off. That being said, I feel like the characters focusing on that is a misdirect. The thing that stuck out to me was the revelation that Humans had destroyed their previous planet with Surgebinding. That requires power on a whole other level compared to what we are seeing so far in the series, even Dalinar's Unity. I strongly suspect it was less about Humans being foreign invaders, and more about how/why the previous planet was destroyed. Given that Honor was allegedly raving mad by the time the recreance happened, and when the secret had been discovered in other generations it didn't break the Radiants after he had a chance to talk to them, I feel like there's other factors at play here we're still not privvy to.

Spoiler

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That may have been the result of a more open and direct conflict between Shards, possibly even the event where Odium's current bonds were established. It may also have involved the Dawnshards, which have been mentioned by name a few times but very little about them has been revealed. Ancient Shard-created weapons of mass destruction, maybe?

In any case, as I recall the Stormfather does say that part of the reason the Radiants abandoned their oaths was that they were concerned that Surgebinding might somehow destroy Roshar eventually.

Spoiler: Reply to Reply

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Amaram being a follower of the evil guy seemed like a mistake to me. It took away from the point of his character, to show that ends justify the means is terrible in practice, but if he is actually an apocalypse worshipping dude then the lesson becomes "don't follow Sauron" which is meaningless. Dalinar did that part much better with his addiction to being a khornate.

Spoiler: Ending

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I think he was not originally a follower of Odium, but got converted the way Odium tried to convert Dalinar.

Amaram's goal has been to get the Heralds to return so they can lead humanity to greatness. Odium revealed to him that the Heralds have been there all along, intentionally hiding from everyone, and Amaram felt betrayed by the Heralds because of that. It was likely a painful revelation to him, and he apparently accepted Odium's offer to take his pain so that he wouldn't have to face it. Amaram's failure then serves as a contrast to Dalinar's success in resisting Odium's temptation.

Spoiler: Whole book

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Watching Shallan keep trying to deal with her issues by suppressing and ignoring the memories, and escaping into alternate personalities, was painful. She accomplished a lot of important and impressive things, all the while slowly falling apart psychologically. I've already commented about liking when Wit finally intervened with some good and insightful advice, but I also really liked the (I hope final) resolution of that. Adolin recognizing the real Shallan, and Shallan responding to that, was beautiful. It was also very nice to see her emphatically choose Adolin, recognizing that her feelings for Kaladin weren't nearly as meaningful.

Kaladin actually not reaching the Fourth Ideal in a climactic moment to resolve a conflict was a good subversion and break from the pattern of the first two books. I'm still curious what the Fourth Ideal is, though, and he'll probably reach it next book (and get Shardplate?). Maybe he'll even match Lopen's utterly non-dramatic (despite his planning otherwise) swearing of an Ideal.

I'm disappointed with Nalan and many of the Skybreakers. Their philosophy, or maybe just their execution of it, has... problems. I can see some sense in swearing to some objective code not subject to your own whims, but if you're going to commit to something like that you had better be extremely careful and certain in your choice of what it is. And then resorting to selective enforcement, manipulating the source of your external "objective code", explicitly endorsing the use of loopholes, and likely putting greater emphasis on the exact wording of things than their spirit? Seems like a lot of hypocrisy to me.

Even Szeth's oath, though very convenient and good for the protagonists at least for now, has the potential to turn bad. Szeth chose it because Dalinar was an extraordinary and good man, and the leader of the fight against Odium, but as has been pointed out many times in this book, men change. If Dalinar were to fall, such as if he had given in to Odium's attempt to convert him, Szeth following him down would be very bad and not at all in the spirit of his oath.

Dalinar's new Ideal (his third, I think), and the whole scene where he spoke it, was awesome. The sheer number of things that were simultaneously and separately looking very very bad just before a dramatic recovery was a bit excessive, though. Also, I'm wondering a bit whether Dalinar will eventually be able to un-Splinter Honor.

Regarding the secret of the Recreance, I think the characters paid far too little attention to the point that those ancient humans served Odium, and in fact were named Voidbringers specifically because Odium - "the Void" - came with them to Roshar. Sure, it's a shocking revelation that humans were the original Voidbringers, but the truly important thing about Voidbringers is the god they serve, not what species they are. You can believe that the listeners were in the right in the first Desolation, and at the same time believe that the humans were in the right in most of the following Desolations, quite easily and consistently by recognizing that the important common element is that Odium is the enemy.

About the Diagram, it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that Super-Taravangian anticipated Odium's reaction to certain things, and his ability to see and interpret the Diagram's contents, and wrote things partly with an eye toward manipulating ordinary Taravangian into unwittingly taking courses of action that would have anti-Odium results without Odium being aware of the plan. I'm also intrigued by the implication that Renarin is a rogue factor Odium's future sight can't account for, who might thus become a key part of Odium's eventual defeat. Extra-interesting that Taravangian didn't mention this to Odium even while agreeing to serve him, and that the wording used was that The Diagram (the organization) would serve Odium. I could see Taravangian starting up a separate secret organization while distancing himself from the existing one, and Kharbranth being officially spared Odium's wrath might come in useful.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the development that two of the Heralds are now in Dalinar's custody. Jasnah identified them when they fainted at the Oathgate. Even better, both of these two are (at least sometimes) mentally functional and may be able (and willing?) to provide their knowledge and expertise, unlike Jezrien before he died. Talenelat in particular I expect will be not merely willing, but eager, at least when he's not zoned out with his lengthy "prepare for the Desolation" mantra.

[Talanic]

Spoiler: About Amaram.

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The more I think about Amaram, the less surprised I am that he fell to Odium. In the past two months, not only has his entire life's work turned out to be worthless, he's been publicly exposed as a fraud, lost one of his best friends, and his liege lord was murdered - apparently (to him) BY said best friend (or at his orders). Even the fact that he's now Highprince Sadeas means nothing - Alethkar has been conquered, and he's Highprince-In-Exile...unless, perhaps, if he turns to the other side.

He's been trying to return the church to power by returning the Heralds, but the only one he meets is a broken madman. When Odium tells him the rest are there, active, and uncaring about the needs of humanity - well, his entire life was a lie! More than that, he actively worked to cause an apocalypse - one he believed that only the Heralds could stop, and now he knows the Heralds can't and/or won't stop it! Given his earlier actions, his willingness to sacrifice others for his own power, the fact that he would then swap to what he perceived as the winning side is no surprise at all.

Spoiler: About Szeth

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If Dalinar falls, would he still have his will - which is explicitly what Szeth swore to serve? Or would it be Odium's will in his place, and he could no longer give orders to Szeth? I believe this is moot. If Dalinar has not fallen at this point, he won't.

Spoiler: About the response to the Recreance Reveal

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I don't think that anyone realized that the original Voidbringers followed Odium. At the point that the translation was revealed, we hadn't really seen Odium's emotion-sucking side yet. They'll probably address it at some point.

[Mechalich]

As for the spoiler comment

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are you really suggesting that the population of Roshar evacuate to another world? There would be rather extreme logistical problems with that, and those would be thoroughly dwarfed by the problems involved in convincing everyone to do it. Even if you somehow dealt with those problems, you'd then be dumping an entire world's worth of refugees on another world. It's not even close to a feasible solution.

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No, I'm saying it lessens the stakes. First, because so long as there are other world with humans on them even if Odium ultimately wins on Roshar and kills all the humans there humanity doesn't go extinct. The destruction of a population is inherently less threatening than the extinction of a species. Period. Secondly, no one cares about the faceless masses - that's not how humans respond to storytelling. Witness the situation with the Parsh. They are almost all going to die - in fact Jasnah notes explicitly in the text that at the current juncture - with no means to stop the Fused - the only way humanity can win against Odium is to xenocide them - but we the reader are not really intended to care. In fact, by using as the only Parsh viewpoint character the individual in this series with the most blood on her hands of all Sanderson is deliberately making them even less sympathetic.

By revealing the presence of other worlds then, Sanderson establishes that Roshar can fall entirely and yet the story can continue. Any major characters can escape elsewhere. Even if they don't even if humanity and its allied spren forces ultimately win on Roshar, Stormlight Archive has been revealed as the battle, not the war. In all honesty, that's kind of ridiculous, given the shear length of the series. This series is going to be something like 3 million words if it actually gets finished. That's not enough?

[Doran]

Spoiler: Full Book

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Mechalich, do you really think we're being setup for Parsh genocide/xenocide winning the day?
Against the God of Hate?

Sounds like Odium's ultimate end goal - get one side to genocide the other and use that to break free of the Greater Roshar system.

Despite the fact said God is perfectly happy using both Parshmen and humans as tools, and has started possessing the latter via the Thrill? It's only a step from there to Void Knight Radiant.

I disagree with humanity existing on other planets robs the story of tension and drama - even if you think of faceless masses, it doesn't then matter if humans still exist on other planets or not.

[Personification]

Hi people, I love that this is a thing, I loved the book, and to those who didn't:

DEEEESTROOOY!!!!

(just kidding, opinions and tastes are personal)
Anyway, have you guys also been to the 17th Shard, just wondering, they have a lot of these discussions there with interesting feedback stuff on them from different people, so yeah. Also, I love the Kaladin Avatar! We need more Cosmere themed avatars!

[JeenLeen]

I'm about halfway through the book, but a couple questions.

Is the

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supposed Radiant that Targavarian (sp) brings with him

mentioned in the first or second book? If so, please summarize. Sorry that I don't remember how to spell her name.

Would someone summarize what the Warbreaker character(s) did in the first/second book?

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beyond the living sword's cool appearance near the end of the second book. Mainly referring to Zahel/Vasher

[Doran]

First question

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Mr T’s dustbringer Malata was not mentioned previously even in Ts POV presumably to keep her a secret.

Second question

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Zahel appears as an old ardent in Bk2, becomes Renarin and Kaladin’s sword master, uses colour expressions, refers to a former voice in his head.

Late bk2 Kaladin looks for advice from Wit/Hoid about protecting the king and finds Zahel. He advises K to make the choice that lets him sleep at night- that’s what he wishes he’d done.

Vasher and Nightblood were also in Way of Kings 2003 draft version, so warbreaker is effectively a prequel for these two characters

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: So. Finished the book.

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ooooh boy, this was a long punishing read. Sanderosn is really pushing me to my bookish limits with these.

so.....just to summarize and sort this all out in my head:

humans invaded Roshar long ago, after their old world was destroyed. brought Odium with them.

humans turned to Honor, but Radiants learned the truth, abandoned humanity, Honor died but Odium somehow got imprisoned here.

now Odium wants to be free, which is bad, but is all emotions ever so you can't really kill him because he is guy that allows you feel anything.

Jasnah is now Queen.

Dalinar is dealing with the fact that we went Genocide Route in the past without drugs supernatural or otherwise better, and is now writing a book about it.

Kaladin got hit with "everyone is not evil down inside" bat and became useless for a moment.

Shallan has married Adolin and is now the next Queen in line.

Szeth is now on their side.

Taravangian is a fool who thought he could outsmart gods and failed, as expected.

Moash is just a failure in general.

Venli said the Words. This could be good or bad, depending.

Teft and Lopen are now Windrunners.

Amaram is dead, and everyone rejoiced.

Adolin told Shallan and Dalinar that he killed Sadeas. Neither of them cared.

Wit is acting mysterious as usual.

Cultivation is up to something but who knows what.

Despite all that Odium has done, he lost. feel like this book was a very Pyrrhic victory for the protagonists though: the world is basically wrecked by now. and its only the third book.

I feel like this book had a lot of meta jokes for Sanderson though. like you can see them sprinkled throughout the book, and not just in the Hoidwit parts.

[Seerow]

Spoiler: Responses to Raziere's reactions

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humans invaded Roshar long ago, after their old world was destroyed. brought Odium with them.

humans turned to Honor, but Radiants learned the truth, abandoned humanity, Honor died but Odium somehow got imprisoned here.

now Odium wants to be free, which is bad, but is all emotions ever so you can't really kill him because he is guy that allows you feel anything.

My understanding is that Odium is actually still trapped on the Humans original world, the place where the Heralds go back to between desolations.

Odium can be killed, in the same way that Honor was killed. It doesn't matter whether he is Odium, or if he is Passion, or something else... the Shards of Adonalsium work fundamentally the same, so if Odium is outright killed, the power could be taken up by another individual (as has been done with other shards in other Sanderson series), or the power could be splintered (As Odium did to Honor).

Moash is just a failure in general.

I actually rather like Moash's arc, as kind of a dark mirror of what Kaladin could have become had his worst impulses taken over at various points in the story. But yes lots of strong feelings for Moash. There's actually a whole subreddit /r/****moash.

Venli said the Words. This could be good or bad, depending.

Venli as our first Listener Radiant is a huge deal and I am really hoping it is hers/Eshonai's book next... but I think that is actually Book 5, with Szeth coming up next.

Teft and Lopen are now Windrunners.

Also strongly implied that the two Kaladin met back up with who saved Gavilar's baby are full wind runners as well. They both said the first oath when greeting Kaladin, and somehow managed to get that far away despite Kaladin being nowhere near.

Cultivation is up to something but who knows what.

She's pretty obviously playing games to undermine Odium. Honor said that Cultivation was better at seeing the future than him. She seems to be playing the long game of manipulating certain pieces just the right way to screw with Odium and save herself. The manipulation of Dalinar to deny Odium his preferred Champion was brilliant.

Despite all that Odium has done, he lost. feel like this book was a very Pyrrhic victory for the protagonists though: the world is basically wrecked by now. and its only the third book.

Odium lost a battle, but the war overall he's still in a strong position. The Parsh control Kholinar still, managed to turn a significant chunk of Alethi armies, and still have much of the rest of the world divided and bickering. Oh and he has Tarvangian in his pocket as well. Yeah, things are going to get worse before they get better.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Responses to Raziere's reactions

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Odium can be killed, in the same way that Honor was killed. It doesn't matter whether he is Odium, or if he is Passion, or something else... the Shards of Adonalsium work fundamentally the same, so if Odium is outright killed, the power could be taken up by another individual (as has been done with other shards in other Sanderson series), or the power could be splintered (As Odium did to Honor).

I actually rather like Moash's arc, as kind of a dark mirror of what Kaladin could have become had his worst impulses taken over at various points in the story. But yes lots of strong feelings for Moash. There's actually a whole subreddit /r/****moash.

She's pretty obviously playing games to undermine Odium. Honor said that Cultivation was better at seeing the future than him. She seems to be playing the long game of manipulating certain pieces just the right way to screw with Odium and save herself. The manipulation of Dalinar to deny Odium his preferred Champion was brilliant.

Odium lost a battle, but the war overall he's still in a strong position. The Parsh control Kholinar still, managed to turn a significant chunk of Alethi armies, and still have much of the rest of the world divided and bickering. Oh and he has Tarvangian in his pocket as well. Yeah, things are going to get worse before they get better.

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Hopefully not everyone who gets the Odium Shard becomes as corrupted as him.

Hm. I see. I guess Moash will be the archenemy to foil Kaladin at some point.

Yeah, Cultivation set it up so that his curse actually prepared Dalinar for this, while his boon gave him a break. Essentially, she picked just the right amount of time for him to recover enough to face it with a different perspective then gradually start remembering.

thing is though, if Cultivation has control over that, how much control does she have over Taravangian's intelligence? how much did she plan for Taravangian to figure out? how much did she plan for Odium to figure out from Taravangian? What does she gain from Kharbranth being preserved? I mean....Taravangian's random intelligence is Cultivation's doing after all, and he did get that Transcendent day awfully early. what if its not really random- just Cultivation adjusting him up and down as she needs? meaning Taravangian is potentially a pawn of both Odium and Cultivation. To put in Avatar The Last Airbender terms:
Long feng/Taravangian: "you have bested me at my own game."
Azula/Cultivation/Odium: "Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player."

Yeah, what the Parsh choose to do going forward is going to impact a lot of this. I do not see them gaining victories without at least some Parshendi choosing to fight against Odium.

thing is, I don't think Cultivation is guaranteed to be good. She is on the protagonists side for now, but she could easily be the one outgambitting Odium for her own goals, and Cultivation could be pulling all the strings for a plan no one agrees with. who knows what she is going to do? I mean we don't know what Lift's payoff is going to be, or how else she is going to influence events. she is the only Shard they have to fight on their side, and she can't do it openly knowing how destructive Odium is.

[Shadow of the Sun]

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Hopefully not everyone who gets the Odium Shard becomes as corrupted as him.

Hm. I see. I guess Moash will be the archenemy to foil Kaladin at some point.

Yeah, Cultivation set it up so that his curse actually prepared Dalinar for this, while his boon gave him a break. Essentially, she picked just the right amount of time for him to recover enough to face it with a different perspective then gradually start remembering.

thing is though, if Cultivation has control over that, how much control does she have over Taravangian's intelligence? how much did she plan for Taravangian to figure out? how much did she plan for Odium to figure out from Taravangian? What does she gain from Kharbranth being preserved? I mean....Taravangian's random intelligence is Cultivation's doing after all, and he did get that Transcendent day awfully early. what if its not really random- just Cultivation adjusting him up and down as she needs? meaning Taravangian is potentially a pawn of both Odium and Cultivation. To put in Avatar The Last Airbender terms:
Long feng/Taravangian: "you have bested me at my own game."
Azula/Cultivation/Odium: "Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player."

Yeah, what the Parsh choose to do going forward is going to impact a lot of this. I do not see them gaining victories without at least some Parshendi choosing to fight against Odium.

thing is, I don't think Cultivation is guaranteed to be good. She is on the protagonists side for now, but she could easily be the one outgambitting Odium for her own goals, and Cultivation could be pulling all the strings for a plan no one agrees with. who knows what she is going to do? I mean we don't know what Lift's payoff is going to be, or how else she is going to influence events. she is the only Shard they have to fight on their side, and she can't do it openly knowing how destructive Odium is.

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It's dangerous to assume that any Shard is specifically on the side of the protagonists. Their desires and goals may align, but they are not really "on anyone's side" other than their own; being aligned with a cosmic principle tends to sway your own personal opinions and viewpoints, changing you over time. And given how long Cultivation's been aligned to that principle, it's definitely coloured her opinions and views. She might be preferable for the protagonists, but she's not really "on their side" in the same way that the sun isn't on anyone's side, even if it provides us all the energy we need for life.