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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    ^^^ Actually Moash rocks and has rocketed up to become 2nd best notmain character after the Lopen this time around.
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    Y'all know Cultivation is the Reverse Ruin, right? It's right there in her name.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    ^^^ Actually Moash rocks and has rocketed up to become 2nd best notmain character after the Lopen this time around.
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    Y'all know Cultivation is the Reverse Ruin, right? It's right there in her name.
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    I dunno. Sanderson is big on everyone having their own agendas, and the Stormlight series has particularly gone out of its way to be a complex grey world of no clear or easy answers in regards to its problems. if Cultivation just triumphed over Odium then fixed everything through her tough love schtick, I don't think it'd be satisfying.

    Cultivation may be about growing things, but to what ends, we don't know. she seems like a mother nature type of deal, and nature is an ugly, harsh often cruel thing. a world ruled by Cultivation might be a fecund, abundant one, but not necessarily a safe one. anything but safe really. best you could hope for would be a competitive garden in my mind, all set up to constantly grow more without you having any real choice in what way you grow. remember: she can see the future. more than Odium. don't trust anyone who can see the future.

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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
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    Venli as our first Listener Radiant is a huge deal and I am really hoping it is hers/Eshonai's book next... but I think that is actually Book 5, with Szeth coming up next.
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    I'm thinking that Eshonai is dead for good and everything Sanderson said about her book is misdirection to hide Venli's arc in Oathbringer.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adderbane View Post
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    I'm thinking that Eshonai is dead for good and everything Sanderson said about her book is misdirection to hide Venli's arc in Oathbringer.
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    I'm sure she's gone as well, but Sanderson has said a character doesn't need to be alive to be a Flashback focus character. Because of that I suspect Venli's book will still have Eshonai as the Flashback PoV
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    So a couple of thoughts.

    Spoiler: Part 4 Spoilers
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    How many people think that the story, "The Girl Who Climbed the Wall," is an allegory for humans leaving Shinovar? The wall, meant to keep the humans from leaving, represents the mountains that protect Shinovar from the Highstorms, but also protects the Parshmen from the humans. From the Parshmen point of view, the humans are the monsters, as Shallan's version of the story teaches.

    But Wit recontextualized the story with the addition of darkness and light, which most likely represent Odium and Honor. This is not a story about humans destroying the Parshmen, but about humans turning to Honor.

    The exact details about what happened aren't clear yet. I imagine there was conflict between the followers of Honor and the followers of Odium. There are still humans who follow the Passions, which is what Odium is--the Shard of Passion. It says more about him than his Shard that his most powerful passion is Hatred. But I suspect this conflict is what drove one group out of Shinovar and thus into conflict with the Parshmen. At least one group of Parshmen was destroyed in this conflict, and made a deal with Odium to be able to return and continue the war--and thus, the Desolations.

    The most pro-human interpretation is that the Odium-followers were driven out of Shinovar, where they destroyed a large number of Parshmen, who then made a deal with Odium and destroyed not just the Odium followers, but tried to destroy the Honor-followers as well, which led to the cycle of Desolations, the Heralds, the Oathpact, etc. When Honor was around to explain this, he kept the Recreance from happening. As he became mad, the Radiants lost this perspective, and it destroyed their oaths.

    I suspect that it's not as straightforward as that, though. It fits the story better if the Honor-followers were driven out, and then their conflicts with the Parshmen are more tragic and avoidable.

    As for the spren, it seems inevitable that they would change and betray the Parshmen. Spren reflect how the world is perceived, and bringing a large group that views the world differently to Roshar naturally changed the spren, who then were more closely bonded with the humans than the Parshmen.


    Spoiler: Part 5 Spoilers
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    I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone talk about Maya and Adolin yet. This is a ripe area for speculation. It's pretty clear that Maya is a cultivationspren, the same type as Lift's spren Wyndle (who is described as being made of vines and crystals, whereas the cultivationspren are described as having vines for their faces and crystals for their hands when we see them in Celebrant).

    This makes sense, as the Second and Third Ideals for the Edgedancers are to "remember those who have been forgotten" and to "listen to those who have been ignored", both of which apply directly to the dead spren. In fact, we see Adolin doing both at the end, when he both remembers and listens to Maya.

    The question, then, is whether Adolin is broken enough to form the bond. Some say not yet, others say that even if he isn't broken, Maya is. There's certainly room to break Adolin more. The fallout from Sadeas's death hasn't really played out yet, nor have we seen the consequences of Adolin learning the truth of how his mother died. Adolin clearly admires and loves his father, and has always modeled himself after him. If Adolin can't forgive his father for killing his mother, and Dalinar can't forgive Adolin for murdering Sadeas, that will drive a wedge between them and possibly break Adolin.

    (There's also speculation that Adolin will give up Maya, or that he will turn to the dark side. I think the first is unlikely, and while I hope the second doesn't happen, it doesn't seem impossible, if a wide enough rift opens between him and his father.)

    And then there's the question of what it would take to wake up the other Shardblades. There are at least three that don't have a home yet--Renarin's, Oathbringer, and Amaram's blade, which seems to still be in the hands of Rock--who doesn't need one if he bonds an honorspren. But if anyone else can wake up a Shardblade, I'd expect it to be Rock. And if Rock and Adolin can discover what it takes to wake up a Shardblade, they may be able to place the other two blades with people who can wake them up: perhaps squires of the correct orders, though that seems too simple. I don't think it's just a matter of following the Ideals of the dead spren, but practicing the Ideals toward the dead spren. Which is why the Edgedancer ideals fit so well.
    Last edited by DSCrankshaw; 2018-01-05 at 07:11 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    My questions after finishing the book (and minor Mistborn spoiler)
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    While we know Surgebinders destroyed their old world and their coming to Roshar caused Odium to follow, I feel like we might be slightly mislead. For some reason, the idea that they did not originally serve Odium BUT their fleeing one world for another bought Odium with them.

    Also, is Odium generally considered to be that red force that Sazed (?) is protecting the mistborn world from, as shown in that one vision he gives to the protagonist near the end of the 'industrial revolution' books?

    Lastly, it seems like aluminum might have more universal applications. The room that guarded the soulcaster from the voidspren in Kholinar was warded by a light-weight, silverly metal. And Nightblood's sheath was a silverly metal. I'm wondering if both are aluminum or some alloy of it. (That the sheath can block Nightblood might be a quality of Nightblood, not specific strength of the stealth itself.)
    Do we know anything about his sheath from Warbreaker?


    All in all, I enjoyed the book a lot.
    On Wit/Hoid in the epilogue
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    I liked confirmation that he can use Breath (or something equivalent) to animate cloth.
    And the idea of him gaining Soulcasting and Lightweaving as a Surgebinder is awesome.

    Is he supposed to be Yolish and thus maybe have the Lightweaving from that world? I haven't read the short story(ies) that touch on the Yolish planet. (I'm hoping to read that collection of stories Sanderson put out sometime in the next few months.)


    EDIT--forgot. A question about the Words/Vows and what they unlock. Is it
    Spoiler
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    No Vow (as squire) -- can possibly start absorbing (and healing via) Stormlight and do basic Surges when their Knight is nearby.
    1st Vow -- can absorb Stormlight and heal. Use Surges?
    2nd Vow -- can use Surges.
    3rd Vow -- can manifest a Shardblade.
    4th Vow -- can manifest Shardplate
    5th Vow -- ???

    And when do you actually bond a spren? It seems unclear to me whether it's the 2nd or 3rd. Especially since, for Kaladin, the 2nd seemed to definitely have him bonded but it seems it might work differently for apprentices, as shown by Bridge Four and the Skybreakers.
    Does it seem that using just Lashes until the 3rd Vow was a Skybreaker rule, not an overall rule?

    Also, do we know what Windrunners' two Surges are? Are they used together to do the different type of Lashings, or should we be anticipating Kaladin learning another Surge?
    That Sazed says Kaladin does more advanced Lashings makes me think Windrunner Lashings are two of the Surges combined.
    Last edited by JeenLeen; 2018-01-16 at 09:33 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    My questions after finishing the book (and minor Mistborn spoiler)
    Spoiler
    Show

    While we know Surgebinders destroyed their old world and their coming to Roshar caused Odium to follow, I feel like we might be slightly mislead. For some reason, the idea that they did not originally serve Odium BUT their fleeing one world for another bought Odium with them.

    Also, is Odium generally considered to be that red force that Sazed (?) is protecting the mistborn world from, as shown in that one vision he gives to the protagonist near the end of the 'industrial revolution' books?

    Lastly, it seems like aluminum might have more universal applications. The room that guarded the soulcaster from the voidspren in Kholinar was warded by a light-weight, silverly metal. And Nightblood's sheath was a silverly metal. I'm wondering if both are aluminum or some alloy of it. (That the sheath can block Nightblood might be a quality of Nightblood, not specific strength of the stealth itself.)
    Do we know anything about his sheath from Warbreaker?
    Spoiler
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    Red means one shard is corrupting another shard's magic.
    Odium's usual color is Gold.
    The Red force could potentially be any other shard, or possibly one shard using another's magic as a tool - say if Odium or Autonomy corrupted a splinter of Ambition.

    From WoB we know Nightblood's sheath is aluminium.


    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    All in all, I enjoyed the book a lot.
    On Wit/Hoid in the epilogue
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    I liked confirmation that he can use Breath (or something equivalent) to animate cloth.
    And the idea of him gaining Soulcasting and Lightweaving as a Surgebinder is awesome.

    Is he supposed to be Yolish and thus maybe have the Lightweaving from that world? I haven't read the short story(ies) that touch on the Yolish planet. (I'm hoping to read that collection of stories Sanderson put out sometime in the next few months.)
    Spoiler
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    Yolen was featured in Liar of Partinel, Hoid's old backstory, and Dragonsteel which is also where Bridge 4 and the Shattered Plains are from.

    No stories from Yolen are currently canon, but we know there is a dragon called Frost there (he replies to Hoid's letter in Words of Radiance). It was the location of the Shattering of Adonalasium, and most of humanity (apart from Scadrians which were created directly from their Shards) are descended from there.


    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    EDIT--forgot. A question about the Words/Vows and what they unlock. Is it
    Spoiler
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    No Vow (as squire) -- can possibly start absorbing (and healing via) Stormlight and do basic Surges when their Knight is nearby.
    1st Vow -- can absorb Stormlight and heal. Use Surges?
    2nd Vow -- can use Surges.
    3rd Vow -- can manifest a Shardblade.
    4th Vow -- can manifest Shardplate
    5th Vow -- ???

    And when do you actually bond a spren? It seems unclear to me whether it's the 2nd or 3rd. Especially since, for Kaladin, the 2nd seemed to definitely have him bonded but it seems it might work differently for apprentices, as shown by Bridge Four and the Skybreakers.
    Does it seem that using just Lashes until the 3rd Vow was a Skybreaker rule, not an overall rule?

    Also, do we know what Windrunners' two Surges are? Are they used together to do the different type of Lashings, or should we be anticipating Kaladin learning another Surge?
    That Sazed says Kaladin does more advanced Lashings makes me think Windrunner Lashings are two of the Surges combined.
    Spoiler
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    Vow unlocking seems to be different for different orders - e.g. Bondsmiths get no Blade at all.

    Jasnah probably has plate however, judging from the final battle.

    Windrunner surges are Gravitation and Adhesion: The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum - Full Lashing is an example of the latter, and Kaladin also uses it to split the winds of a highstorm.

    Also Sazed? Do you mean Szeth?
    A knight radiant is more efficient at stormlight use then someone holding a honorblade.
    I also don't think people holding an honorblade get access to resonance combination powers - like the Windrunner's ability to have many squires.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    Quote Originally Posted by Doran View Post
    Vow unlocking seems to be different for different orders - e.g. Bondsmiths get no Blade at all.
    I think that one isn't that Bondsmiths can't manifest a Blade, but that the Stormfather refuses to be so subservient to a human as to become a physical tool for him - the idea is too insulting and offensive to him for him to cooperate in that way, but if he ever changes his mind he does have the ability to be a Shardblade for Dalinar.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    Sorry, I meant it isn't magically impossible for it to occur, but that the three World/Godspren refuse to do it, as you stated.

    On the other hand...

    I wonder if Syl is made up of pure "Tanavastium", and Pattern of pure "Cultivatium" in blade form with other orders being a mix of the two metals.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    Quote Originally Posted by Doran View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post

    EDIT--forgot. A question about the Words/Vows and what they unlock. Is it
    Spoiler
    Show

    No Vow (as squire) -- can possibly start absorbing (and healing via) Stormlight and do basic Surges when their Knight is nearby.
    1st Vow -- can absorb Stormlight and heal. Use Surges?
    2nd Vow -- can use Surges.
    3rd Vow -- can manifest a Shardblade.
    4th Vow -- can manifest Shardplate
    5th Vow -- ???

    And when do you actually bond a spren? It seems unclear to me whether it's the 2nd or 3rd. Especially since, for Kaladin, the 2nd seemed to definitely have him bonded but it seems it might work differently for apprentices, as shown by Bridge Four and the Skybreakers.
    Does it seem that using just Lashes until the 3rd Vow was a Skybreaker rule, not an overall rule?

    Also, do we know what Windrunners' two Surges are? Are they used together to do the different type of Lashings, or should we be anticipating Kaladin learning another Surge?
    That Sazed says Kaladin does more advanced Lashings makes me think Windrunner Lashings are two of the Surges combined.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Vow unlocking seems to be different for different orders - e.g. Bondsmiths get no Blade at all.

    Jasnah probably has plate however, judging from the final battle.

    Windrunner surges are Gravitation and Adhesion: The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum - Full Lashing is an example of the latter, and Kaladin also uses it to split the winds of a highstorm.

    Also Sazed? Do you mean Szeth?
    A knight radiant is more efficient at stormlight use then someone holding a honorblade.
    I also don't think people holding an honorblade get access to resonance combination powers - like the Windrunner's ability to have many squires.
    Vow unlocking
    Spoiler
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    EDIT: I expanded on this a little.

    It definitely seems to vary depending on the order. Edgedancers and Windrunners receive their blades on their third vow, while Shallan has her blade after only the first ideal, before having to tell any truths. And Dalinar was able to force the Stormfather to manifest after only the second ideal.

    Nale seems to imply that Skybreakers only get access to their second surge with their third ideal, but it's not always divided like that. Lift could cause plants to grow after only the first, but needed the second ideal to heal, and they're both done with the surge of progression. It's implied that flight comes with the second ideal for Windrunners, though gravitation for other purposes (such as to draw away arrows) can come before.

    As for spren, if someone attracts the attention of a spren, they can heal and surgebind before saying the first ideal, as Kaladin did in the first book. Squires can piggyback on their Knight's spren, but they seem to need a spren of their own before saying the third ideal, at least for the Skybreakers. But it's also possible to attract a spren earlier, and may be necessary for the second ideal among Windrunners (that seemed to be the case for Lopen, and possibly Teft, though we didn't see where he said the second ideal). Clearly, you need a spren before you can summon a Shardblade.


    Speaking of spren and surgebinding:
    Spoiler: Part 5
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    Did anyone get the impression that Adolin was surgebinding at the end of Oathbringer? The way he fought the thunderclast seemed very much in keeping with how I expect Edgedancers to operate: quick hit and run attacks, always keeping just ahead of the enemy. His semi-recovery after falling into the building seemed suspiciously quick.

    There's also one reference to him sliding across the rubble, and if Abrasion works both ways, increasing friction as well as decreasing it, then it may have other applications, such as clinging to a thunderclast's finger or dangling from a cliff face.

    If Adolin was surgebinding, it was the same sort of unconscious surgebinding we saw from Kaladin early in the first book. Some suspiciously lucky breaks, but nothing clearly supernatural. So there's no proof it was happening, but I have my suspicions.
    Last edited by DSCrankshaw; 2018-01-16 at 11:20 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    Quote Originally Posted by DSCrankshaw View Post
    Vow unlocking
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    It definitely seems to vary depending on the order. Edgedancers and Windrunners receive their blades on their third vow, while Shallan has her blade after only the first ideal, before having to tell any truths. And Dalinar was able to force the Stormfather to manifest after only the second ideal.

    Nale seems to imply that Skybreakers only get access to their second surge with their third ideal, but it's not always divided like that. Lift could cause plants to grow after only the first, but needed the second ideal to heal, and they're both done with the surge of progression. It's implied that flight comes with the second ideal for Windrunners, though gravitation for other purposes can come before.

    As for spren, if someone attracts the attention of a spren, they can heal and surgebind before saying the first ideal, as Kaladin did in the first book. Squires can piggyback on their Knight's spren, but they seem to need a spren of their own before saying the third ideal, at least for the Skybreakers. But it's also possible to attract a spren earlier, and may be necessary for the second ideal among Windrunners.


    Speaking of spren and surgebinding:
    Spoiler: Part 5
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    Did anyone get the impression that Adolin was surgebinding at the end of Oathbringer? The way he fought the thunderclast seemed very much in keeping with how I expect Edgedancers to operate: quick hit and run attacks, always keeping just ahead of the enemy. His semi-recovery after falling into the building seemed suspiciously quick.

    There's also one reference to him sliding across the rubble, and if Abrasion works both ways, increasing friction as well as decreasing it, then it may have other applications, such as clinging to a thunderclast's finger or dangling from a cliff face.

    If Adolin was surgebinding, it was the same sort of unconscious surgebinding we saw from Kaladin early in the first book. Some suspiciously lucky breaks, but nothing clearly supernatural. So there's no proof it was happening, but I have my suspicions.
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    I hope Adolin isn't. I am fairly irritated by how widespread it is now. Feels like Star Wars EU where everyone has to be a Jedi to be special. Adolin is cool because he doesn't have super powers, and gets the girl by being a nice, cool person instead of the Broodster.

    Making him a radiant takes away from why he is so likable.
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
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    I hope Adolin isn't. I am fairly irritated by how widespread it is now. Feels like Star Wars EU where everyone has to be a Jedi to be special. Adolin is cool because he doesn't have super powers, and gets the girl by being a nice, cool person instead of the Broodster.

    Making him a radiant takes away from why he is so likable.
    Re Adolin.
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    I can't say I agree.

    First, reviving Shardblades has been foreshadowed for a while now, and Adolin's the only Shardbearer with a serious chance of doing it (well, maybe Rock, if he still has Amaram's Shardblade). I've been expecting this since the second book.

    Second, they need Radiants. Lots of Radiants. There were hundreds of them in previous Desolations. There are, what, maybe a dozen now? They were outnumbered at least ten-to-one during the battle of Thaylen City. How many Fused did they actually manage to kill? Jasnah got a couple, and Adolin killed one. I don't recall any of the others actually killing a Fused. Not that it makes any difference, as long as the Fused can simply find more bodies, but if all those dead singers found a body they'd outnumber the Radiants at least a hundred to one.

    Not to mention that the only organized order of Radiants, the Skybreakers, are working for the other side. And it looks like a lot of the Dustbringers will join that side as well. And at least one Reacher, though there's hope that Venli will eventually join Dalinar's team.

    Frankly, there are too few spren willing to bond humans, because of the Recreance. The only way they'll be able to raise enough Radiants to stand a fighting chance is to start reviving the dead spren. If they can do that, that will not only create as many Radiants as they have Shardblades, it may also convince the more reluctant spren to give the humans a second chance.
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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    Quote Originally Posted by DSCrankshaw View Post
    Re Adolin.
    Spoiler: Part 5
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    I can't say I agree.

    First, reviving Shardblades has been foreshadowed for a while now, and Adolin's the only Shardbearer with a serious chance of doing it (well, maybe Rock, if he still has Amaram's Shardblade). I've been expecting this since the second book.

    Second, they need Radiants. Lots of Radiants. There were hundreds of them in previous Desolations. There are, what, maybe a dozen now? They were outnumbered at least ten-to-one during the battle of Thaylen City. How many Fused did they actually manage to kill? Jasnah got a couple, and Adolin killed one. I don't recall any of the others actually killing a Fused. Not that it makes any difference, as long as the Fused can simply find more bodies, but if all those dead singers found a body they'd outnumber the Radiants at least a hundred to one.

    Not to mention that the only organized order of Radiants, the Skybreakers, are working for the other side. And it looks like a lot of the Dustbringers will join that side as well. And at least one Reacher, though there's hope that Venli will eventually join Dalinar's team.

    Frankly, there are too few spren willing to bond humans, because of the Recreance. The only way they'll be able to raise enough Radiants to stand a fighting chance is to start reviving the dead spren. If they can do that, that will not only create as many Radiants as they have Shardblades, it may also convince the more reluctant spren to give the humans a second chance.
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    That assumes that this series is going to involve a final battle. I really hope not, I have read both WoT and Mistborn series and don't need another installment of Sanderson's End Times.

    The story so far has given me hope it won't be another huge fantasy war book. Characters get their powerups based on personal development, and in the books so far battles have always gone badly and personal decision making has gone well. Especially with Dalinar's choice instead of a super power smackdown.
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    So I've got a rambly ending theory of the Stormlight Archive Ending, but it involves spoilers not only potentially all Brandon's Cosmere Works, but any Words Of Brandon he's stated on here.

    Spoiler: EVERYTHING COSMERE RELATED + ENDING SPECULATION
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    So this theory is pretty out there, so I'm not going to reference all words of Brandon directly right now - I'll do so if people look into it though. This is also based on various speculation on Vessel's I've read on the 17th Shard.

    So we know investiture=energy=mass in the Cosmere, and at the Shattering of Adonalasium all investiture was aligned to one of the 16 shards.

    We also know that though the power of Adonalasium is infinite (or at least encompassing the entire universe), the Shards are not all powerful, as they have finite minds/souls (which is why Sazed can't sense every use of Ruin/Preservation aligned investiture in the universe).

    The Vessel is like a hosepipe attached to an ocean in the Spritual Realm - they can stretch themselves through more power but there are still limits. For example in Mistborn Secret History (MSH) Kelsier exploited the fact Ruin is not omnipresent, and that his attention was elsewhere when speaking to Spook.

    Also from MSH we know that Vessels are bound to their power by Connection - which can be hacked and artificially created. Without this connection to a Vessel, the Power can be then splintered, and manipulated by another shard. For a full connection/power, the Vessel needs to have a presence to the Physical realm, unlike a Cognitive shadow (not sure if Kelsier with a body or a Herald could wield the full power of a Shard).

    A Vessel is bound and manipulated by their Intent, which can corrupt them over time, and potentially even puppet them. However a Vessel holder also interprets their intent to the extent of synoyms. Ati thought Ruin was wholly evil and destructive, and so was he in the end. Sazed however more easily recognises the role of Ruin in recycling and creation, and part of the natural order. Dalinar, Sadeas or Amaram holding Honor would each interpret Honor differently (e.g. Amaram might interpret Honor as Glory - more about Good PR)

    An example of this was on Sel (Elantris planet), where AonDor is the remnants of Devotion (Aona) and Dominion (Skai) Powers. Odium ripped the powers from the Spiritual realm, and jammed them together in the Cognitive realm preventing people from picking them up. Seons and Skaze are splinters cast off from this process.

    We also know from Oathbringer that Odium stopped trying to destroy the Stormfather because it meant he was open to a strike from Cultivation which could destroy him in turn.

    This doesn't, however, explain how Odium could have killed Honor - he presumably did so slowly, as Honor started to go insane around the recreance, but without Cultivation killing Odium as he did so.

    My theory is that Odium manipulates other Shards into acting against their Intent directly and indirectly while he can do almost anything without violating his Intent of hatred and being hated, and to bring things apart. (he only cannot act selflessly, but is allowed to fake it through deceit and betrayal).

    Note that Odium does not have to hate himself or make himself be hated, just as Preservation does not preserve itself above all others, and Ruin doesn't need to destroy himself. This is probably why he picked this Shard in the first place, and doesn't pick up any others - it's one of the best for attack and defense against other Shards.

    Harmony is also vulnerable because of this as he can continually be pushed off balance about whether to be harmonius, preserve, destroy, and to intervene or not.

    The Red mist around Scadrial, and the red-eyed Faceless immortals is presumably another Shard trying this to break Sazed, although it might be Autonomy rather than Odium.

    Both Honor and Cultivation are Invested in Roshar (possibly in Braize), increasing their control over it, but also reducing their power for other purposes. I think Odium tends to infect other shards splinters/spren/magic reducing their flexibility for a small cost of it's own.

    This is probably what the Unmade are - mixture of cultivation and honor investiture that were on Roshar, Braize and Ashyn in the Greater Roshar star system, but that then infected by Odium to deny their use and possible reabsorption by Honor and Cultivation.

    Odium has also damaged Honor by subverting the Heralds and the Knight Radiant, and manipulating Honor constantly into trolley problem situations where he has to let other people violate their oaths or go against the law of the land - for example choosing between Humans and the indigenous inhabitant of Roshar - the Parshmen.

    Skybreakers and Windrunners represent the two sides of Honor - whether to be Good or to be Lawful, and how Odium has attacked him through this dichotomy.

    So all Vessels are linked to their Shard through Connection in holding it, and all are to some extent vulnerable because of this. Shard holding multiple shards are even more vulnerable because they have to balance the Intents.

    So what if a group of people (say 10) held a Shard's power collectively?

    They'd each have a tenth of the power, but also a tenth of the intent, and could interpret that intent differently.

    They could act collectively as a Pantheon + one shard, but each personally intervene depending on their area without risking going against their intent.

    If one or two goes rogue or gets corrupted by their intents the rest can destroy them and reassign their "purview".

    I could think of two ways this could happen - splinter the Shard into 10 pieces gradually and once they are stable have individual people claim them, or work out away to link 10 people together and share the connection equally.

    Or in other words the prototypes of the (Un)Made and Heralds, which both proved to fail though the efforts of Odium.

    Hold one, get two free!

    So if you could do this with one shard, why not with three at once?
    Each person would hold 0.1 Honor, 0.1 Cultivation, and 0.1 Odium for 0.3 of a shard.

    All of them acting together would be the match of any 3 shards, but it'd take 4 of them to match Endowment, and 7 of them to match Harmony.

    Since each Vessel would be able define their own Intent, you could then have an even wider range of personalities, and shifting Odium into the actual role of Passion.

    For example -

    Dalinar - Holder of the Pseudo Shard "Unity"
    • Honor - I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together
    • Cultivation - I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man
    • Odium - The Thrill - blood brothers, shared combat.


    I'm not saying he's there yet, but I think this what the series might be going towards.

    Cultivation Endgame

    Cultivation seems to be one of the best shards at foresight.
    It's possible that even if she kills Rayse, his Shard Odium might need a bearer immediately to avoid destroying the planetary system. If she pulls what Odium did on Sel, then all the Spren in the cognitive realm would get destroyed. If she leaves it alone, it might become something like the Evil on Threnody (which might be a remnant of Ambition). Moash could pick Odium up (shard version of The Lord Ruler maybe?).

    If she picks Odium up, it will likely corrupt her (Odium + Cultivation = Torture).

    If she picks Honor up to compensate, she might already have a personal interpretation of it which would make things worse (Cultivation+Honor = Slavery) and Odium would make things even worse then that (Odium+Cultivation+Honor=Eugenics)

    So if she identifies good candiates beforehand, and crafts their interpretations of each of the three shards, she can retire (either die like Vin to be with Tanavast, or do a Hoid) , knowing her chosen Pantheon can handle things.

    And as people get tired of holding a pseudo-shard, or get too corrupted, they can choose a successor.
    Last edited by Doran; 2018-01-19 at 11:34 AM.
    Exalted avatar remix by Musashi
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    Quote Originally Posted by Doran View Post
    So I've got a rambly ending theory of the Stormlight Archive Ending, but it involves spoilers not only potentially all Brandon's Cosmere Works, but any Words Of Brandon he's stated on here.

    Spoiler: EVERYTHING COSMERE RELATED + ENDING SPECULATION
    Show

    So this theory is pretty out there, so I'm not going to reference all words of Brandon directly right now - I'll do so if people look into it though. This is also based on various speculation on Vessel's I've read on the 17th Shard.

    So we know investiture=energy=mass in the Cosmere, and at the Shattering of Adonalasium all investiture was aligned to one of the 16 shards.

    We also know that though the power of Adonalasium is infinite (or at least encompassing the entire universe), the Shards are not all powerful, as they have finite minds/souls (which is why Sazed can't sense every use of Ruin/Preservation aligned investiture in the universe).

    The Vessel is like a hosepipe attached to an ocean in the Spritual Realm - they can stretch themselves through more power but there are still limits. For example in Mistborn Secret History (MSH) Kelsier exploited the fact Ruin is not omnipresent, and that his attention was elsewhere when speaking to Spook.

    Also from MSH we know that Vessels are bound to their power by Connection - which can be hacked and artificially created. Without this connection to a Vessel, the Power can be then splintered, and manipulated by another shard. For a full connection/power, the Vessel needs to have a presence to the Physical realm, unlike a Cognitive shadow (not sure if Kelsier with a body or a Herald could wield the full power of a Shard).

    A Vessel is bound and manipulated by their Intent, which can corrupt them over time, and potentially even puppet them. However a Vessel holder also interprets their intent to the extent of synoyms. Ati thought Ruin was wholly evil and destructive, and so was he in the end. Sazed however more easily recognises the role of Ruin in recycling and creation, and part of the natural order. Dalinar, Sadeas or Amaram holding Honor would each interpret Honor differently (e.g. Amaram might interpret Honor as Glory - more about Good PR)

    An example of this was on Sel (Elantris planet), where AonDor is the remnants of Devotion (Aona) and Dominion (Skai) Powers. Odium ripped the powers from the Spiritual realm, and jammed them together in the Cognitive realm preventing people from picking them up. Seons and Skaze are splinters cast off from this process.

    We also know from Oathbringer that Odium stopped trying to destroy the Stormfather because it meant he was open to a strike from Cultivation which could destroy him in turn.

    This doesn't, however, explain how Odium could have killed Honor - he presumably did so slowly, as Honor started to go insane around the recreance, but without Cultivation killing Odium as he did so.

    My theory is that Odium manipulates other Shards into acting against their Intent directly and indirectly while he can do almost anything without violating his Intent of hatred and being hated, and to bring things apart. (he only cannot act selflessly, but is allowed to fake it through deceit and betrayal).

    Note that Odium does not have to hate himself or make himself be hated, just as Preservation does not preserve itself above all others, and Ruin doesn't need to destroy himself. This is probably why he picked this Shard in the first place, and doesn't pick up any others - it's one of the best for attack and defense against other Shards.

    Harmony is also vulnerable because of this as he can continually be pushed off balance about whether to be harmonius, preserve, destroy, and to intervene or not.

    The Red mist around Scadrial, and the red-eyed Faceless immortals is presumably another Shard trying this to break Sazed, although it might be Autonomy rather than Odium.

    Both Honor and Cultivation are Invested in Roshar (possibly in Braize), increasing their control over it, but also reducing their power for other purposes. I think Odium tends to infect other shards splinters/spren/magic reducing their flexibility for a small cost of it's own.

    This is probably what the Unmade are - mixture of cultivation and honor investiture that were on Roshar, Braize and Ashyn in the Greater Roshar star system, but that then infected by Odium to deny their use and possible reabsorption by Honor and Cultivation.

    Odium has also damaged Honor by subverting the Heralds and the Knight Radiant, and manipulating Honor constantly into trolley problem situations where he has to let other people violate their oaths or go against the law of the land - for example choosing between Humans and the indigenous inhabitant of Roshar - the Parshmen.

    Skybreakers and Windrunners represent the two sides of Honor - whether to be Good or to be Lawful, and how Odium has attacked him through this dichotomy.

    So all Vessels are linked to their Shard through Connection in holding it, and all are to some extent vulnerable because of this. Shard holding multiple shards are even more vulnerable because they have to balance the Intents.

    So what if a group of people (say 10) held a Shard's power collectively?

    They'd each have a tenth of the power, but also a tenth of the intent, and could interpret that intent differently.

    They could act collectively as a Pantheon + one shard, but each personally intervene depending on their area without risking going against their intent.

    If one or two goes rogue or gets corrupted by their intents the rest can destroy them and reassign their "purview".

    I could think of two ways this could happen - splinter the Shard into 10 pieces gradually and once they are stable have individual people claim them, or work out away to link 10 people together and share the connection equally.

    Or in other words the prototypes of the (Un)Made and Heralds, which both proved to fail though the efforts of Odium.

    Hold one, get two free!

    So if you could do this with one shard, why not with three at once?
    Each person would hold 0.1 Honor, 0.1 Cultivation, and 0.1 Odium for 0.3 of a shard.

    All of them acting together would be the match of any 3 shards, but it'd take 4 of them to match Endowment, and 7 of them to match Harmony.

    Since each Vessel would be able define their own Intent, you could then have an even wider range of personalities, and shifting Odium into the actual role of Passion.

    For example -

    Dalinar - Holder of the Pseudo Shard "Unity"
    • Honor - I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together
    • Cultivation - I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man
    • Odium - The Thrill - blood brothers, shared combat.


    I'm not saying he's there yet, but I think this what the series might be going towards.

    Cultivation Endgame

    Cultivation seems to be one of the best shards at foresight.
    It's possible that even if she kills Rayse, his Shard Odium might need a bearer immediately to avoid destroying the planetary system. If she pulls what Odium did on Sel, then all the Spren in the cognitive realm would get destroyed. If she leaves it alone, it might become something like the Evil on Threnody (which might be a remnant of Ambition). Moash could pick Odium up (shard version of The Lord Ruler maybe?).

    If she picks Odium up, it will likely corrupt her (Odium + Cultivation = Torture).

    If she picks Honor up to compensate, she might already have a personal interpretation of it which would make things worse (Cultivation+Honor = Slavery) and Odium would make things even worse then that (Odium+Cultivation+Honor=Eugenics)

    So if she identifies good candiates beforehand, and crafts their interpretations of each of the three shards, she can retire (either die like Vin to be with Tanavast, or do a Hoid) , knowing her chosen Pantheon can handle things.

    And as people get tired of holding a pseudo-shard, or get too corrupted, they can choose a successor.
    This seems like a good time to break out my theory.
    Spoiler: The Unmade
    Show

    Everyone claims Odium is the Shard of Hatred, but he claims that he is the Shard of passion, meaning all passions. What if they're both right?

    Holding all sorts of conflicting passions at the same time would drive a man mad, but what if he split those passions off from himself, either creating or changing spren for that purpose? Thus, the Unmade. We already know that some of them are base passions, like gluttony or the thrill. What if they all are passions? Maybe some of them are more human because their passions are more complex, higher order.
    Donald S. Crankshaw
    Blog: Back of the Envelope

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Doran's Avatar

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    Default Re: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive)

    You know I was originally going to say I'd found a quote against DSCrankshaw's theory, but it actually supports it instead.

    Spoiler: The Unmade
    Show


    The letter to Hoid in the Words of Radiance epigraph states

    Quote Originally Posted by Letter to Hoid

    He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.
    It sounds like "the virtues" refers to the other Shards - perhaps in particular Devotion, Cultivation etc. But this could instead mean, as DSCrankshaw says - other passions or virtues - and a classic misdirection.

    Perhaps if the Unmade were once human, Rayse pulled a trick similar to the 9 Ringwraiths from Lord Of The Rings - he split off pieces of himself that were high in Intent, but low in control, and turned them into Spren or gave them to humans to corrupt ala Ruin.

    Rayse does seem to be someone who would optimise his Shard as much as possible.
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