"I was told someone here needed help..."

[Fish]

"...murdering Durkon Thundershield," says Hilgya.

Told by whom? Who told Hilgya about this? How, when?

I scanned the first 10 pages of the thread and didn't see anyone addressing this. What does this mean?

Furthermore, who could have told Hilgya this? And who would have?

[Chronos]

It could have been Loki, who we know is on the "save the world" side of the voting, and is just the sort to bend the rules a little to meddle. We know, after all, that the gods can talk directly to their priests when it suits them.

[Deliverance]

"...murdering Durkon Thundershield," says Hilgya.

Told by whom? Who told Hilgya about this? How, when?

I scanned the first 10 pages of the thread and didn't see anyone addressing this. What does this mean?

Furthermore, who could have told Hilgya this? And who would have?

I haven't read the 1105 thread, but Loki struck me as the obvious suspect and if this is not being discussed in the 1105 thread I guess I'm not alone in that.

But it is a good question. Loki is not only top of my list of suspects, he is the list of suspects. Who else would a) know her, b) know where Durkon is, c) know enough about her and Durkon to point her in Durkon's direction, d) Be able to inform her? The only other possible contenders I can think of are Hel, Hel's Durkon vampire, and Thor - and at most they know of her, Thor having seen her with Durkon and Hel&Co from Durkon's memories (and that's besides Hel&Cod not having a motive for telling her). I just don't see any of the three as viable candidates.

No, it has got to be the God who has her direct line and who has every reason to intervene, Loki. Either directly or indirectly. If not, I can't wait to see what explanation the Giant has cooked up.

EDIT: Yendor (a few posts below) posits Sabine on behalf of the IFCC, Hilgja being an ex-pawn and knowing Sabine... Now I'm jealous - I like that idea even better than Loki telling Hilgja as it suits their behind-the-scenes manipulation perfectly, so my list now reads: "1. Sabine, 2. Loki".

[Fish]

Who else [but Loki] would a) know her, b) know where Durkon was, and c) know enough about her and Durkon to point her in Durkon's direction?

I grant you a) and b), but c) is not warranted. The person who told Hilgya need only have said, "There's a dwarf by the name of Durkon Thundershield who must be stopped, and this is where he is." They didn't need to know her personal backstory in order to tell her that much. If there's a c) then it's that the person must know that there are other people here trying to kill Durkon. The elements of the quote are "someone needed help," "here," and "murdering Durkon Thundershield." Who, where, what.

I was going to go with one of the priests at the Godsmoot, personally; that seems like a likely place to start. There are a lot of clerics there, from every pantheon, who heard the name of Durkon and saw personally what he (and Hel) were doing.

Loki is a possible suspect. The whole idea of Thor vs Loki has been going on during the whole strip; perhaps Durkon and Hilgya are the agents of reconciliation between the two. Who knows? Anyway, let's call Loki suspect #1.

I would call one of the temple priests suspect #2.

If I had to name suspect #3, I'd have to think about it. It doesn't seem likely that anybody else knows all three elements of who, where, and what, all together.

[Jasdoif]

I was going to go with one of the priests at the Godsmoot, personally; that seems like a likely place to start. There are a lot of clerics there, from every pantheon, who heard the name of Durkon and saw personally what he (and Hel) were doing.

It's possible communication isn't actually blocked, but I wouldn't put any bets on it.

[Deliverance]

I grant you a) and b), but c) is not warranted. The person who told Hilgya need only have said, "There's a dwarf by the name of Durkon Thundershield who must be stopped, and this is where he is." They didn't need to know her personal backstory in order to tell her that much. If there's a c) then it's that the person must know that there are other people here trying to kill Durkon. The elements of the quote are "someone needed help," "here," and "murdering Durkon Thundershield." Who, where, what.

Good point.

[Yendor]

"...murdering Durkon Thundershield," says Hilgya.

Told by whom? Who told Hilgya about this? How, when?

I scanned the first 10 pages of the thread and didn't see anyone addressing this. What does this mean?

Furthermore, who could have told Hilgya this? And who would have?

I suggested it was Sabine. The IFCC should be monitoring the situation, and Hilgya was one of their Linear Guild pawns, so it seems likely they could bring her in to disrupt a plan which likely conflicts with their own.

[Deliverance]

I suggested it was Sabine. The IFCC should be monitoring the situation, and Hilgya was one of their Linear Guild pawns, so it seems likely they could bring her in to disrupt a plan which likely conflicts with their own.

I like that idea; Never thought of that.

[Jasdoif]

I suggested it was Sabine. The IFCC should be monitoring the situation, and Hilgya was one of their Linear Guild pawns, so it seems likely they could bring her in to disrupt a plan which likely conflicts with their own.

Hilgya was crossed off of their graphical list of pawns...though Sabine probably could still make a convincing case out of it. Might explain the "murder" aspect.

[Fish]

Sabine is a possibility, because we know the IFCC does like to interfere with things, and they do know her (and that she'd be likely to go).

I personally don't like the idea of Loki, because it seems to break the non-interference thing the gods have going on with respect to the Gates.

The priests in the Godsmoot are a possibility because nobody said that magical communication was used to contact someone (although admittedly in this world this is likely). They shouted through the barrier to someone outside, so not all communication is blocked; and we don't know if the field was dropped for some reason, due to a change in the vote circumstances. Not very likely but not impossible.

Who else could have known about this particular need at this time and place, had the ability, had the motivation, and knew Hilgya?

Eugene might have the knowledge, might know who Hilgya is from his vantage point, probably has the motivation, doesn't have the power

Tarquin's gang has the ability, probably doesn't have the knowledge (although they've got a Gate and might have discovered there's a threat), motivation questionable (Tarquin would pursue Elan, not Durkon)... knows Hilgya? can't rule it out

Anyone from the Mechane, including Julio Scoundrél, has the knowledge, probably has the motivation, probably doesn't have the ability

[Fish]

I'm revising my list of requirements:

• a) knew where Durkon would be ("someone here ...")
• b) knew there was a team who needed help killing him ("...needed help...")
• c) had the ability to contact Hilgya / knew Hilgya / could plausibly be in contact with her ("I was told...")
• d) has the motivation to send somebody after Durkon

Nothing in that statement suggests knowledge of the Gates, of Durkon's mission, of his vampiric status, or the presence of the rest of the Order.

So, other possibilities:

The Oracle told her that she needed to be here, and here now, to help someone kill Durkon. Plausible. If she went to the Oracle and asked, the Oracle would definitely have a), b), and c), and Hilgya could supply d).

Malack. It's distantly, remotely possible that he left a message for someone. Unlikely; he wouldn't know Durkon would be here, specifically, or that a team would be after him at that very moment.

[Yendor]

Hilgya was crossed off of their graphical list of pawns

True, but that didn't stop them making use of Zz'dtri.

Hilgya wasn't listed on Nale's Wanted poster, so it appears she wasn't known to Tarquin.

[Fyraltari]

Hilgya was crossed off of their graphical list of pawns...though Sabine probably could still make a convincing case out of it. Might explain the "murder" aspect.

So was Z.

I personally don't like the idea of Loki, because it seems to break the non-interference thing the gods have going on with respect to the Gates.

Ah but Loki is Chaotic Evil, to play with the leter of the rules is what he does.
Besides Count Durkula is not protected by the rules anymore.

[ReaderAt2046]

Sabine is a possibility, because we know the IFCC does like to interfere with things, and they do know her (and that she'd be likely to go).

I personally don't like the idea of Loki, because it seems to break the non-interference thing the gods have going on with respect to the Gates.

That might be why Loki phrased it the way he did. He didn't order Hilgya to interfere with the vote or even hint on the existence/location of an agent of Hel. He told Hilgya where to find people who wanted to murder Durkon Thundershield, and let her freely choose what to do with that information.

[Fish]

I'm not ready to presume it was Loki. I'm not even willing to presume she's here to help murder Durkon. She just said "I was told someone here needed help" doing so, not that she would assist.

[hroþila]

I like the idea of it being Sabine because it's plausible while not being obvious at all, and it gives her a way to reappear in the story (which we have reason to suspect she will do eventually). That said, Loki would be the more likely candidate.

I don't think Loki would be breaking any rules by sending Hilgya, though. That's explicitly what clerics are for. If that were against the rules, Hel would have been in breach of them long ago, thus rendering the whole thing pointless.

[Keltest]

Loki seems to be the most likely source of the information, given the short notice and the level of investment he has in the outcome, however it does beg the question as to how she could use Turn Undead instead of Rebuke Undead, because even if she were neutral, Loki couldn't grant her that power by virtue of his being evil.

[hroþila]

Loki seems to be the most likely source of the information, given the short notice and the level of investment he has in the outcome, however it does beg the question as to how she could use Turn Undead instead of Rebuke Undead, because even if she were neutral, Loki couldn't grant her that power by virtue of his being evil.

New theory: the baby is a Good-aligned Cleric of Thor.

[Fyraltari]

Are scrolls/wands/whatever of turn undead a thing ?

[Keltest]

Are scrolls/wands/whatever of turn undead a thing ?

not as such. Its a cleric and paladin class feature, similar to a ranger or druid's animal companion.

A cleric of an evil god gets rebuke undead. A cleric of a good god gets Turn Undead. Neutral clerics of neutral gods have to pick one. Since Loki is evil, it doesn't matter if Hilgya became chaotic neutral at some point, she would still Rebuke Undead if she worshipped Loki.

[Tiltowait]

I think Loki told his priesthood about it the same way Thrym got the message across to that elder frost giant cleric.

[Sencara]

Well there is always the prospect that strip 79 is how Loki knew she would be fine with killing Durkon. And there is also the chance she converted to worship Thor to get Turn Undead? And holy crap I wonder if that was a baby she already had or it is Durkon's.... Because wow that was a fast transition. Then again I lose track of time in the comic world.

[Dr.Zero]

"...murdering Durkon Thundershield," says Hilgya.

Told by whom? Who told Hilgya about this? How, when?

I scanned the first 10 pages of the thread and didn't see anyone addressing this. What does this mean?

Furthermore, who could have told Hilgya this? And who would have?

Yeah, Loki was my first choice back at the times when we were discussing this for the n-th time (based on the assumption that, if Hel could talk directly with Durkula even when he wasn't anymore her high priest, so could Loki... and he did that already when he ordered her to steal the Talisman from Nale).

Right now, I still think this would be the simplest explanation.

Spoiler: Old post

Show

There are plenty of explanations for Hilgya being there which are not contrived (ie: whatever explanation sounds as a good explanation is by definition not contrived).

Starting with the fact she is a high level cleric of Loki. If she still mirrors Durkon, she probably is one of the few clerics in this world in the high teens, level-wise.

With that premise, I don't find particularly contrived an explanation like: "Hey, little one, Loki here. Yes, yes, praise me. I want to inform you and your new 5 questing friends that the world is going to end, if no one acts and that you dwarves are going to get a particular short end of the stick from it. Yes, that includes you, even if you hate all other dwarves. So: [buy one of those teleport ball and go/explain it to your mage or psion and teleport/windwalk, if close enough] to Firmament to fix this mess. More details will follow. Remeber: Vote Loki 2017!"

Edit: just adding that, thinking twice about it, I find much more contrived that only Hel and Thyrm act through their followers, while all the other gods -starting with Loki, Odin and Thor- sit down on their thumbs.

[Fyraltari]

not as such. Its a cleric and paladin class feature, similar to a ranger or druid's animal companion.

A cleric of an evil god gets rebuke undead. A cleric of a good god gets Turn Undead. Neutral clerics of neutral gods have to pick one. Since Loki is evil, it doesn't matter if Hilgya became chaotic neutral at some point, she would still Rebuke Undead if she worshipped Loki.

Thank you

Well there is always the prospect that strip 79 is how Loki knew she would be fine with killing Durkon. And there is also the chance she converted to worship Thor to get Turn Undead? And holy crap I wonder if that was a baby she already had or it is Durkon's.... Because wow that was a fast transition. Then again I lose track of time in the comic world.

They celebrated New Year back in Azure City and are getting close to the end of that year, so I guess this is very likely to be Durkon's child.

[syskill]

I'd guess it was the resident priest of Odin. We already established in #1098 that he put Durkon on course to join the OOTS, and become Hel's high priest, by means of his self-fulfilling death-and-destruction prophecy. Assuming that Odin doesn't want the world destroyed, it stands to reason that there would be a plan to deal with Durkula now. Hilgya fits the bill perfectly because her fateful encounter with Durkon was also a result of the prophecy.

As a nice bonus, Hilgya's ability to turn undead can be explained by her being given temporary holy orders as a cleric of Odin.

[dps]

I'm revising my list of requirements:

• a) knew where Durkon would be ("someone here ...")
• b) knew there was a team who needed help killing him ("...needed help...")
• c) had the ability to contact Hilgya / knew Hilgya / could plausibly be in contact with her ("I was told...")
• d) has the motivation to send somebody after Durkon

Nothing in that statement suggests knowledge of the Gates, of Durkon's mission, of his vampiric status, or the presence of the rest of the Order.

So, other possibilities:

The Oracle told her that she needed to be here, and here now, to help someone kill Durkon. Plausible. If she went to the Oracle and asked, the Oracle would definitely have a), b), and c), and Hilgya could supply d).

Malack. It's distantly, remotely possible that he left a message for someone. Unlikely; he wouldn't know Durkon would be here, specifically, or that a team would be after him at that very moment.

Redcloak, Xykon, and the MitD would fit c (knew Hilgya) and presumably d, but probably not a or b, so they'd be longshots. Of the 3, I'd think Redcloak the most likely--he's much more likely than the other 2 to actually remember Hilgya, and the MitD would be questionable on d as well. Also, we know that Redcloak and the MitD know that Durkon and Hilgya had sex, but it's not something I'd think either would be likely to tell Xykon about.

[alwaysbebatman]

I'm revising my list of requirements:

• a) knew where Durkon would be ("someone here ...")
• b) knew there was a team who needed help killing him ("...needed help...")
• c) had the ability to contact Hilgya / knew Hilgya / could plausibly be in contact with her ("I was told...")
• d) has the motivation to send somebody after Durkon

Nothing in that statement suggests knowledge of the Gates, of Durkon's mission, of his vampiric status, or the presence of the rest of the Order.

So, other possibilities:

The Oracle told her that she needed to be here, and here now, to help someone kill Durkon. Plausible. If she went to the Oracle and asked, the Oracle would definitely have a), b), and c), and Hilgya could supply d).

Malack. It's distantly, remotely possible that he left a message for someone. Unlikely; he wouldn't know Durkon would be here, specifically, or that a team would be after him at that very moment.

This is a really excellent analysis. Between Loki, Odin, the Oracle, and the IFCC, I think it's really a tough call.


Loki is the most obvious, meeting all 4 qualifications easily.

The negative for the Oracle is that Hilgya would have had to seek him out and pay his fee with baby in tow, all for revenge. It seems like a situation where she could have arranged for a sitter first.

I like Syskil's idea: Odin meets (a)-(c) obviously-- being the god of prophecy, he could predict it all, and give his priest instructions for where and when to seek out Hilgya, and just what to say. But (d) is iffy. Durkon* works for Hel, but it's Odin's actions that led to his creation. But I wouldn't put it past Odin to play both sides here: causing Durkon* to be, because of something important he will soon do (presumably), but also put Hilgya into motion to help stop Durkon* from going beyond that purpose, whatever it may end up being.

But the IFCC is a Dark Horse. They meet (a)-(c) easily, and have the advantage of a personal connection via Sabine. Like with Odin (d) is an open question: how do they want this to go down?

@dps: I really don't see any reason to believe anybody on Team Evil know anything about what OOTS are getting up to since they last saw them at Girard's Pyramid.

[Gift Jeraff]

Order of likelihood, in my opinion:
1. Loki, or a member of Loki's church
2. A new god Hilgya may have converted to, or a member of said god's church (obviously a god opposed to Hel)
3. Sabine

[Tass]

A cleric of an evil god gets rebuke undead. A cleric of a good god gets Turn Undead. Neutral clerics of neutral gods have to pick one. Since Loki is evil, it doesn't matter if Hilgya became chaotic neutral at some point, she would still Rebuke Undead if she worshipped Loki.

Are we absolutely sure Loki is evil? I could see both him and Hilgya as chaotic neutral.

In addition to the turn undead, we also see her spamming cure spells in the early comics. While not a proof - they could be prepared - it seems to indicate spontaneous casting and thus that she channels positive energy.

[Chronos]

I think it's more likely that it's Sabine working alone than that she's acting on behalf of the IFCC. She's seriously pissed off against Tarquin, and by extension against his entire team, and by extension against the vampire spawned by Tarquin's teammate. That's enough motive.