Prose's Guide to Xanathar's Guide to Everything

[mephnick]

These two posts are the perfect example of the two primary player types:

1) This is a game
2) This is a story

I refuse to tell a story. Refuse!

[mgshamster]

I refuse to tell a story. Refuse!

No story allowed!

Non-jokingly, sorry for implicating you in the idea that you're on an extreme end. You're not.

All of us fall within some part of that spectrum, but there is a line from which each of us must decide which is more important - the story or the rules.

Those who say the story are more likely to favor RP over optimization, and more likely to ditch the rules to allow for some for of rule breaking creativity. An extreme end of this will prefer free-form games.

Those who say the rules are more important are more likely to prefer an optimized PC and have some level of desire for the story to be told within the rules. An extreme form of this will say things like, "Why would I ever play something less than optimal and why should I ever allow a non-optimized PC in my group?" or "The more rules there are, the easier it is for a new DM to run a story." I've even seen one DM run a Hardcover book where there was zero RP and the entire campaign was battle after battle with short and long rests in between each one.

[Easy_Lee]

All of us fall within some part of that spectrum, but there is a line from which each of us must decide which is more important - the story or the rules.

There is another path: the meta. And I don't mean rules meta, I mean meta about the game. Transcend the game. Why are you playing it? Escapism? Fantasy? I don't think so.

D&D isn't about the PCs, the rules, the story, or the world. It's about the people. Transcend the rules vs story argument and instead adapt to the people around you. If we all do that, every game will go smoothly regardless of how it's played.

[Ravinsild]

No story allowed!

Non-jokingly, sorry for implicating you in the idea that you're on an extreme end. You're not.

All of us fall within some part of that spectrum, but there is a line from which each of us must decide which is more important - the story or the rules.

Those who say the story are more likely to favor RP over optimization, and more likely to ditch the rules to allow for some for of rule breaking creativity. An extreme end of this will prefer free-form games.

Those who say the rules are more important are more likely to prefer an optimized PC and have some level of desire for the story to be told within the rules. An extreme form of this will say things like, "Why would I ever play something less than optimal and why should I ever allow a non-optimized PC in my group?" or "The more rules there are, the easier it is for a new DM to run a story." I've even seen one DM run a Hardcover book where there was zero RP and the entire campaign was battle after battle with short and long rests in between each one.

I guess that's beauty of roleplaying games in real life/tabletop. In a video game you often hear "can't we just skip the RP?" in a WoW raid or something. In D&D in real life you can decide if you want a combat simulator type game or a loosey-goosey free-form style game like Critical Role where it's 90% story where the fights are there to accentuate the drama.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I like to optimize an RP concept to be the best at that niche. Like I want to build a Hexblade that specializes in cold and necrotic spells/damage who is sort of a shadow caster that's great at fighting in melee.

Ordinarily the most optimized just take the best spells at whatever level for their utility. However I want a specialized concept with a very strict design and I hate PAM because I think Glaives and stuff look goofy on my character concept. So I just want to build the best optimized version of my character to do a good job at being what he's supposed to be, but not the overall MOST optimized character. Otherwise it's a hodge-podge of random spells with no theme and a stupid (IMO) looking weapon.

[Talamare]

I'm pretty sure they do the show on their own free time as a hobby. Although, yeah, they've probably played for more years in 5e than in Pathfinder at this point so you would think their system mastery would be a little better by now. They often do forget some rules though, but as far as I could tell it mostly seemed to be pretty standard 5e with a touch of homebrew here and there.

It's not like they blatantly constantly do things the rules don't allow from what I remember.

I think it STARTED that way, but the show is making money
At this point, I do think that each of them are getting a share of the wealth

Also, MM uses a LOT of Rule of Cool and his own Rule of Logic.

If someone says something clever, he will usually let it roll
If someone tries to do something clever, he will probably let them

It's rarely a good idea to bog down the game trying to find out exactly how to play some minor rule.

[mephnick]

Non-jokingly, sorry for implicating you in the idea that you're on an extreme end. You're not. .

No problem. I am pretty far to one end on the Story - Game spectrum. I try not to be too militant about it but sometimes I fail!

[Temperjoke]

Getting a bit off topic now.

[mephnick]

Getting a bit off topic now.

Eh, it's a class options rating thread. No one reads past the first page of these things.

[Waterdeep Merch]

The catapult spell can actually be one of the single most damaging in the game if you're a rich lunatic with access to plenty of acid. Just put all the acid into a pack of the right weight for the spell slot you're going to use (4 for the basic one, since the other pound is taken up by the pack), and get ready to throw fists full of dice. 3d8 (13.5) to the primary target and 8d6 (28) to them and everyone next to them in an AoE, all for a level 2 slot and a little over 100 gold per casting. Add 1d8 (4.5) bludgeoning and 10d6 (35) additional AoE acid damage for every 125 gold and spell slot higher than 2nd spent doing this.

The price gets outrageous fast and god help you if you don't have either a high strength score or (preferably) a bag of holding, but if you're in AL and have way too much money anyway, this is how you melt encounters. Literally.

[Ravinsild]

The catapult spell can actually be one of the single most damaging in the game if you're a rich lunatic with access to plenty of acid. Just put all the acid into a pack of the right weight for the spell slot you're going to use (4 for the basic one, since the other pound is taken up by the pack), and get ready to throw fists full of dice. 3d8 (13.5) to the primary target and 8d6 (28) to them and everyone next to them in an AoE, all for a level 2 slot and a little over 100 gold per casting. Add 1d8 (4.5) bludgeoning and 10d6 (35) additional AoE acid damage for every 125 gold and spell slot higher than 2nd spent doing this.

The price gets outrageous fast and god help you if you don't have either a high strength score or (preferably) a bag of holding, but if you're in AL and have way too much money anyway, this is how you melt encounters. Literally.

lmao, now you too can be Grand Apothecary Putress and chuck the perfected plague at both the living and the scourge!

[Temperjoke]

Eh, it's a class options rating thread. No one reads past the first page of these things.

People do ask questions, or contrary opinions on some of the ratings, which can get lost in side conversations.

lmao, now you too can be Grand Apothecary Putress and chuck the perfected plague at both the living and the scourge!

"Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven?" When I played WoW, he had my favorite armor in the game.


Back on the original subject, for a number of the classes in here, they would do way better in a less combat-focused game. Like the Inquisitive, Mastermind, and Whispers Bard would all do well in a mystery or political plot. On the Bountiful Luck halfling racial, for the halfling sure, it might not be great, but I see it as a great way to aid your group.

[Saggo]

Also, MM uses a LOT of Rule of Cool and his own Rule of Logic.

If someone says something clever, he will usually let it roll
If someone tries to do something clever, he will probably let them

It's rarely a good idea to bog down the game trying to find out exactly how to play some minor rule.

Maybe. I think people assume it's a lot because the show is under public scrutiny. I'd bet most players/DMs would be surprised how many times their tables actually houseruled or made a ruling contrary to RAW. Critical Role is like any table I've seen, Player wants to do some cool/exciting/epic thing and DM adjudicates.

I understand that not everyone likes the show, to each their own. I don't understand why many people adamantly claim they're not playing the 5e system.

[MeeposFire]

Maybe. I think people assume it's a lot because the show is under public scrutiny. I'd bet most players/DMs would be surprised how many times their tables actually houseruled or made a ruling contrary to RAW. Critical Role is like any table I've seen, Player wants to do some cool/exciting/epic thing and DM adjudicates.

I understand that not everyone likes the show, to each their own. I don't understand why many people adamantly claim they're not playing the 5e system.

On a site like this it really seems to grind people's gears if you do not play something similar to their debatable vision of RAW. Clearly if you are not using this rule or that rule then you are not really playing 5e.

Of course their houserules and rulings are fine but the stuff on that show are not 5e.

[mephnick]

I understand that not everyone likes the show, to each their own. I don't understand why many people adamantly claim they're not playing the 5e system.

Oh yeah it's fine. It's ran in a way to be entertaining to viewers, no problem with that.

Basically I'm about to open up my table to a whole bunch of random people and I'm just worried they've seen CR and are expecting the freedom to do a bunch of emotional monologuing while the rest of the table sits there.

[Chugger]

Very good guide. I agree with almost all of your conclusions. Thanks for writing this.

I want to discuss two things; one being Circle of Mortality (Grave Domain). You hint at the 0 healing aspect of this without really explaining it or explaining why it could be very good. Why do I think it's good? An important character (like a front-line meleer) gets dropped to zero, and it falls to me (as a non-Grave caster) to heal him back - and I roll a 1 on the dice. Or I upcast cure w to lvl 2 and roll a 1 and a 3. That sucks. Even adding the wis bonus to these rolls, the guy I just healed is very likely to be put right back down on the floor, zero'd again.

But let's say my wis is 18 and I upcast cure w at lvl 2 on a 0'd char as a Grave cleric. I'm rolling two 8s (when healing a 0'd char your dice are maxed). I wouldn't gloss over that. This is big. It means in a very critical moment in the fight, instead of healing the tank for 5 pts damage or 8 pts damage - I just healed him for 20! Twenty should keep him in the fight - and if it doesn't it's because we're higher level and maybe I should have upcast even higher. Anyway, I feel the guide glosses over this aspect of Circle of Mort - and maybe you wanna look at this. (edit, with Grave you can precisely control how many hit points you want to give a 0'd character by choosing how far to upcast).

The other thing is the racial feats. Experienced players know well what I'm about to bring up, but inexperienced players may not. In a point-buy system of char generation, if a racial feat gives a +1 to a stat that only got a +1 on generation, you're not "keeping up" if your goal was to hit 20 in your main stat by lvl 8. In other words, if you can give yourself a 17 in a key stat, a racial feat is golden because you go to 18 at lvl 4 and get a useful or not so useful extra thing. But if a racial feat gives you +1 on a stat that can only be as high as 16, you are giving yourself an odd stat - which is usually bad (17) - and so you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it.

Where it might shine is if your Tiefling had 13 con to start and you really want those resistances to cold and poison and so on. You'll get a meaningful con boost to 14 and abilities you very much want. Good.

Anyway, I have no idea if you want to adjust this section and add a (more efficiently boiled down version of) this. Inexperienced players seeking help from a guide might benefit tons from this - it might save them from locking into a "mistake" - a choice that will prove disappointing and that will gimp their character forever. A lot of AL players come here, and point-buy is what AL uses - so I would think adding this info would help them a ton. But it's your call. Again I do like your guide a lot - you worked hard on it - so again thank you very much.

[Saggo]

Oh yeah it's fine. It's ran in a way to be entertaining to viewers, no problem with that.

Basically I'm about to open up my table to a whole bunch of random people and I'm just worried they've seen CR and are expecting the freedom to do a bunch of emotional monologuing while the rest of the table sits there.

Ah, yes. That's fair. Wears on me sometimes, too.

[Marcloure]

About your rating of Dragon's Breath as red. As how the spell is written, it seems you can cast it on a familiar and have a flame breathing owl. The familiar uses its own action to deal 3d6 [type] damage in a 15-foot cone, so you and your allies can still use yours own actions to do your things. This way, the spell damage is an addition, not substitution.
Doing this combo, the spell doesn't seem so bad to me. What do you think of it?

[Saiga]

About your rating of Dragon's Breath as red. As how the spell is written, it seems you can cast it on a familiar and have a flame breathing owl. The familiar uses its own action to deal 3d6 [type] damage in a 15-foot cone, so you and your allies can still use yours own actions to do your things. This way, the spell damage is an addition, not substitution.
Doing this combo, the spell doesn't seem so bad to me. What do you think of it?

That sounds like a fun use of both spells, familiars are pretty squishy though.

Shadow Sorcerors could use this with their hound couldn't they?

[Marcloure]

That sounds like a fun use of both spells, familiars are pretty squishy though.

Shadow Sorcerors could use this with their hound couldn't they?

Yes, but the Shadow Hound already have a good dire wolf attack. And a owl can fly up to 60 ft. and doesn't provoke opportunity attacks, so you can keep it safe behind trees, rocks, around the corner or just behind the front line.

[mgshamster]

About your rating of Dragon's Breath as red. As how the spell is written, it seems you can cast it on a familiar and have a flame breathing owl. The familiar uses its own action to deal 3d6 [type] damage in a 15-foot cone, so you and your allies can still use yours own actions to do your things. This way, the spell damage is an addition, not substitution.
Doing this combo, the spell doesn't seem so bad to me. What do you think of it?

I've got a pyromancer sorc who twins Dragons Breath on an ally and the two of them breathe fire on larger groups.

[Saggo]

Of course their houserules and rulings are fine but the stuff on that show are not 5e.

Sure it is. That was the idea, we all have a laundry list of contrarian housrules and rulings. The 5e systems are all primarily intact and adhered to in the show.

[ProseBeforeHos]

The other thing is the racial feats. Experienced players know well what I'm about to bring up, but inexperienced players may not. In a point-buy system of char generation, if a racial feat gives a +1 to a stat that only got a +1 on generation, you're not "keeping up" if your goal was to hit 20 in your main stat by lvl 8. In other words, if you can give yourself a 17 in a key stat, a racial feat is golden because you go to 18 at lvl 4 and get a useful or not so useful extra thing. But if a racial feat gives you +1 on a stat that can only be as high as 16, you are giving yourself an odd stat - which is usually bad (17) - and so you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it.

Yeah that wasn't necessarily clear in my description. A feat like fade away I rated sky blue in the assumption you're boosting intelligence from 17 to 18. If you're a gnome rogue and you start dex 16 then you're probably better off just raising dex to 18.

Of course all these calculations go out the window if you're rolling stats (some people still do...).

[ProseBeforeHos]

About your rating of Dragon's Breath as red. As how the spell is written, it seems you can cast it on a familiar and have a flame breathing owl. The familiar uses its own action to deal 3d6 [type] damage in a 15-foot cone, so you and your allies can still use yours own actions to do your things. This way, the spell damage is an addition, not substitution.
Doing this combo, the spell doesn't seem so bad to me. What do you think of it?

I think it's the best use of the spell I have yet to see. However it's still a level 2 slot for 3d6 of damage. Evaluating spell quality is not just about the burst you can do in a single round, but also the general efficiency of the spell. I still struggle to imagine the scenario where I take it over many of the other, better lvl 2 options.

Edit: I read the spell description more carefully, I think you may be right here. I clearly underestimated this spell. Thanks for the input.

[Maxilian]

I don't think the Desert aura for the Barbarian is a trap option, is true that many monster have resistance to it or inmunity but, having in mind the amount of damage it does, resistance is not really that relevant, the good part about this aura is that the damage is secure, and you need to Attack an enemy, deal damage or take damage if you want to keep your rage, so this allow you to keep this up in a really secure way.

[Puh Laden]

I don't think the Desert aura for the Barbarian is a trap option, is true that many monster have resistance to it or inmunity but, having in mind the amount of damage it does, resistance is not really that relevant, the good part about this aura is that the damage is secure, and you need to Attack an enemy, deal damage or take damage if you want to keep your rage, so this allow you to keep this up in a really secure way.

Technically, dealing damage doesn't prevent your rage from ending, only taking damage and attacking.

[Maxilian]

Technically, dealing damage doesn't prevent your rage from ending, only taking damage and attacking.

I kind of feel bad now, i guess i will go back to play my Shepard druid or prepare my backup Rouge / Kensai character

[Foxhound438]

Ah, the rest of the spells

Only 2 issues I have with the remainder:

1) Maddening darkness should be the same rating as illusory dragon. You say yourself that it's just as good, so the lower rating is just you being picky. Having both would be pretty unnecessary, but it's buyer's choice. If anything, the darkness is better- more damage, no further action required. The fear effect of the dragon is probably in most cases just worse than flat out blinding everything with darkness. No spellcasting through it, basically. And most of all, you completely ignore the fact that warlocks get MD but not the dragon.

2) hand of radiance is at least situationally useful for clerics, since it's pretty common for them to end up in melee, and as soon as there's more than one target you're doing better with this than you would a melee attack- especially on clerics that get potent casting. A light cleric standing next to two things is almost strictly better off using this, and don't say they should avoid melee in the first place, because you can build them to be just as or more tanky than any divine strike cleric since after maxing wis, these guys pump con instead of having to boost strength as well.

[MeeposFire]

Sure it is. That was the idea, we all have a laundry list of contrarian housrules and rulings. The 5e systems are all primarily intact and adhered to in the show.

Lol I guess I should have used blue text even though I hate that concept. That part was me being a bit sarcastic about how people are ok with their houserules and rulings but other people's stuff is of course to them out of bounds for being 5e to them.

[Bardock here]

Earth Bind is Sky blue. If used with Distant (600 feet) / Quicken Metamagic.
A Divine Soul / Warlock keeps distance (Free wings) while blasting with Spell Sniper feat + Distant Metamagic Repelling Agonizing Eldritch Blast (Repelling 10 feet each hit).
It's a death sentense.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Earth Bind is Sky blue. If used with Distant (600 feet_ / Quicken Metamagic.
A Divine Soul / Warlock keeps distance (Free wings) while blasting with Spell Sniper feat + Distant Metamagic Repelling Agonizing Eldritch Blast (Repelling 10 feet each hit).
It's a death sentense.

IMHO, it doesn't deserve the Sky Blue. It's very powerful with a very specific build. That alone doesn't shoot it into the stratosphere of power.