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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Prose's Guide to Xanathar's Guide to Everything

    I always have trouble deciding what spells to choose and this will help a lot.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Prose's Guide to Xanathar's Guide to Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    Eh, maybe Lore Bard, but I'd probably take EK and a few clerics before I went BM or Life Cleric.
    I think it is more along the lines of that with limited numbers of subclasses some that are just markedly inferior stand out.

    Berzerker and somewhat Battlerager Barbarian
    Elemental Monk
    Beastmaster Ranger
    Champion Fighter
    Wild Magic Sorcerer

    There is a reason people only take those for a level or 2 if at all. The other choices are just plain better.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    There is a reason people only take those for a level or 2 if at all. The other choices are just plain better.
    Oh for sure, there are subclasses that are obviously the weakest. I'm not sure there are many classes where one option is obviously the best though.

    Maybe Totem Barb before Xanathar's (of course I'm crazy and regard Bear Totem as my 2nd or 3rd choice).

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    Oh for sure, there are subclasses that are obviously the weakest. I'm not sure there are many classes where one option is obviously the best though.

    Maybe Totem Barb before Xanathar's (of course I'm crazy and regard Bear Totem as my 2nd or 3rd choice).
    Hexblade is just straight up better than every other patron at this point.
    Like to the point that is is almost like getting another class.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    Hexblade is just straight up better than every other patron at this point.
    Agreed. I don't allow it because Bladelocks are good enough for that archetype with minor changes which I've made.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    Hexblade is just straight up better than every other patron at this point.
    Like to the point that is is almost like getting another class.
    Better for general combat only. The other patrons are better at a variety of things.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Psychihc blades is comically underrated. It's a smite yo uget back on a short rest, and bards can get swift quiver. It's far better than the flourishes of the other bard college at first level and scales better from there.

    Basically a Whisper bard would be fighting by putting on haste or swift quiver, getting their trigger on psychic blades. Then their standard action is free for a full spell. It's like a Bizzaro Sorc/Paladin. minus some bulk and plus skills.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Psychihc blades is comically underrated. It's a smite yo uget back on a short rest, and bards can get swift quiver. It's far better than the flourishes of the other bard college at first level and scales better from there.

    Basically a Whisper bard would be fighting by putting on haste or swift quiver, getting their trigger on psychic blades. Then their standard action is free for a full spell. It's like a Bizzaro Sorc/Paladin. minus some bulk and plus skills.
    I mean, if your 3rd level ability is dependant on using a 10th level ability to select a certain spell, it's probably not great. It also doesn't really fit the theme of the class to me.

    I don't think it's a red option, but it's definitely not a feature I'm picking the subclass up for which is usually what you want the 3rd level ability to be. Honestly they should have made Shadow Lore the level 3 subclass feature because that's thematic as hell.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Better for general combat only. The other patrons are better at a variety of things.
    They are not as much better at their things as hexblade is better at general combat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    They are not as much better at their things as hexblade is better at general combat
    If you're melee. Although I suppose this is true for the most part. But if you're not planning on being in melee, it's not as much of a benefit.

    Hexblade is mechanically the best for damage. But it doesn't have anywhere near the flavor of GOO or Fiend, or even celestial. You get stuff to do damage.

    I never thought I'd say this, but it's not always about doing damage.

    Imagine being able to project your voice directly into someones brainhole. The possibilities for mindfookery are nearly endless.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    Imagine being able to project your voice directly into someones brainhole. The possibilities for mindfookery are nearly endless.
    Exactly. Endless and very campaign-dependent.

    For an easier example, consider that the sun soul monk is often criticized as being underpowered. But against undead, particularly vampires, the archetype shines. You could not say Sun Soul was a bad choice unless you knew what you'd be fighting in the campaign.

    Back on Warlock patrons, that's why I think it's more useful to simply state what they can do well. Players will do a better job picking the one they think suits their intentions best if, rather than ranking archetypes outside of any sort of context, we state their strengths.
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    I mean, if your 3rd level ability is dependant on using a 10th level ability to select a certain spell, it's probably not great. It also doesn't really fit the theme of the class to me.

    I don't think it's a red option, but it's definitely not a feature I'm picking the subclass up for which is usually what you want the 3rd level ability to be. Honestly they should have made Shadow Lore the level 3 subclass feature because that's thematic as hell.
    I agree the theme is weird.

    However is psychic blades was placed later it would probably be a case of too little too late, where it wouldn’t scale super well. Then shadow lore might not be bringing enough to the class.

    However it allows you to make a version of a multiclassed build without multiclassing, so I would rate it more highly than the flourishes. On a more global level, you get to be a rogue with no condition for cha mod rounds/short rest.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2017-12-06 at 03:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    If you're melee. Although I suppose this is true for the most part. But if you're not planning on being in melee, it's not as much of a benefit.
    To a degree, but the difference between 14 AC and 19 AC is significant even for ranged characters; even ignoring all the other bonuses

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    To a degree, but the difference between 14 AC and 19 AC is significant even for ranged characters; even ignoring all the other bonuses
    True. There's other ways to get armor proficiency that don't involve locking you into a damage only subclass though.
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    The best at what? We might say it's the best at general combat, but that's only one pillar of the game. Sadly, that seems to be the only thing anyone cares about on forums because everything else is campaign-dependent.
    I would argue that the Hexblade is better at things like social interaction and exploration because it has so much combat power that the Hexblade can save its spells and invocations for those sorts of things.

    It has far and away more power than any other patron. It's not even close. And this is for all warlock types, not just weapon builds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    True. There's other ways to get armor proficiency that don't involve locking you into a damage only subclass though.
    Having a specter under your control that can go through walls and help spy for you is not combat only.

    Locked door. Specter unlocks it.
    Is that chest trapped? Specter checks it, possibly from the inside
    Need someone to bait out an enemy. Specter does it.

    It is one of the best support abilities of any patron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    Having a specter under your control that can go through walls and help spy for you is not combat only.

    Locked door. Specter unlocks it.
    Is that chest trapped? Specter checks it, possibly from the inside
    Need someone to bait out an enemy. Specter does it.

    It is one of the best support abilities of any patron.
    Seems to me that unseen servant could do almost all those things, but I don't remember offhand what the specter exactly does, im AFB atm.
    Last edited by krugaan; 2017-12-06 at 06:21 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    Seems to me that unseen servant could do almost all those things, but I don't remember offhand what the specter exactly does, im AFB atm.
    Are you going to spend 1 of your 2 spell slots on that?
    Only warlocks of 1 pact that takes 1 invocation can do it with a ritual, and that takes 10 mins.
    It also only follows commands and has no real mind.

    The specter is essentially essentially a very cool familiar that can go through walls, and fight with you. And follows advanced directions because they are pretty smart.

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    Are you going to spend 1 of your 2 spell slots on that?
    Only warlocks of 1 pact that takes 1 invocation can do it with a ritual, and that takes 10 mins.
    It also only follows commands and has no real mind.

    The specter is essentially essentially a very cool familiar that can go through walls, and fight with you. And follows advanced directions because they are pretty smart.
    If I'm tome, I probably have it as a ritual.
    If I'm chain, then I *already* have a cool familiar that can do all that.
    If I'm blade, then I'm a hexblade and the argument is moot.

    I dislike that you have to personally kill something to get this cool familiar, because that generally precludes its use in intrigue or similar campaigns. Of course, that hardly matters for dungeon crawls, but that's not the point of my argument.
    Argue in good faith.

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  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    To a degree, but the difference between 14 AC and 19 AC is significant even for ranged characters; even ignoring all the other bonuses
    Not only that but the underlying assumption here makes the argument moot.

    Either -

    Combat is dangerous and it's possible to lose/tpk so you should expect to be attacked. As such combat stats like AC are vital.

    OR

    It's easy to avoid even being attacked in combat because it is trivial and as such it doesn't matter what options are taken because the party is easily going to win anyway.

    In the latter case guides are completely worthless because every option results in success.

    For example, I just started up a new campaign with my group and we invited a new player. She brought a Ranger from a previous campaign by lowering her level a bit. She had leather armour, I suggested that she get better armour and she said leather was a character choice. Sure. So 2nd combat encounter of the session is comprised of 4 orcs. They use their bonus action dash to close the distance and 2 of them attack her and drop her in the first round. If she had better AC should would have been fine and the tide of battle wouldn't have swung against the party. The spellcasters fired off spells in the 2nd round to save the day, but now they are down those spells for the adventuring day, all because her AC is low. Not only did the orcs not care that she was armed with a bow, it made her a bigger target.

    I keep hearing that Hexblade is a damage only patron and the other patrons offer so much more...but what is that more exactly?

    Telepathy to 30ft?
    Charm for 1 round?

    What are these magnificent exploration and social interaction abilities? Warlocks have a lot of these abilities...they're just not from their patrons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    If I'm tome, I probably have it as a ritual.
    If I'm chain, then I *already* have a cool familiar that can do all that.
    If I'm blade, then I'm a hexblade and the argument is moot.

    I dislike that you have to personally kill something to get this cool familiar, because that generally precludes its use in intrigue or similar campaigns. Of course, that hardly matters for dungeon crawls, but that's not the point of my argument.
    The point of your argument was thay hexblade is the combat only subclass.

    My point was that you were wrong and it has one of the best utility features of any warlock subclass

    Also, no your familiar can't phase through a wall, or a chest and spy on the other side, it has to be able to get there like any physical being.
    Also the specter lasts until your long rest so that could be quite a while.
    Just because you are pact of chain does not make it less worthwhile, you can have 2 pets 2 that can be invisible 2 that can walk through walls

    Hexblade is the new broken patron for any build really.
    You can still be chain or tome if you want, none of their abilities force you to use a weapon. You could just take the nice armor, curse and use normal spells

    The point is that Hexblade is not the "combat only patron"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    The point of your argument was thay hexblade is the combat only subclass.

    My point was that you were wrong and it has one of the best utility features of any warlock subclass
    Yes, but that utility is *tied* to combat (unless you think of some clever way around it). I'll concede this one feature has *some* utility, but not much more than a chainlock pet by itself, and there's that pesky corpse thing you need as a prerequisite to use it.

    Also, no your familiar can't phase through a wall, or a chest and spy on the other side, it has to be able to get there like any physical being. That is pretty cool.
    Also the specter lasts until your long rest so that could be quite a while. I suppose this is a bonus?
    Just because you are pact of chain does not make it less worthwhile, you can have 2 pets 2 that can be invisible 2 that can walk through walls You can dismiss and resummon your pet at any point you can see within 30 ft, IIRC.
    Still, cooler than I thought.

    Hexblade is the new broken patron for any build really.
    You can still be chain or tome if you want, none of their abilities force you to use a weapon. You could just take the nice armor, curse and use normal spells

    The point is that Hexblade is not the "combat only patron"
    Sigh, we'll just agree to disagree, then.
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  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    Yes, but that utility is *tied* to combat (unless you think of some clever way around it). I'll concede this one feature has *some* utility, but not much more than a chainlock pet by itself, and there's that pesky corpse thing you need as a prerequisite to use it.
    What does Pact of the Chain have to do with the Hexblade Patron?

    It's like arguing that the Warlock's spellcasting ability is both stronger than the Hexblade features and provides more out of combat utility. Of course it does. Only you still get to cast spells as a Hexblade just as you can still take the Pact of the Chain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
    I keep hearing that Hexblade is a damage only patron and the other patrons offer so much more...but what is that more exactly?

    Telepathy to 30ft?
    Charm for 1 round?

    What are these magnificent exploration and social interaction abilities? Warlocks have a lot of these abilities...they're just not from their patrons.
    "So much more" is an overstatement but the comparison between the patrons isn't entirely cut and dry. Fey has much better cc options (sleep and faerie fire at low levels), fiend has the best aoe damage (fireball, wall of fire) and has good defensive options vs spells (something which hexblade doesn't have). Great old one has perhaps the best single ability of any warlock patron (create thrall) and even celestial can fill a healing niche in a party that already has good single target dpr, but lacks for a cleric.

    If I had to create a warlock "tier list" it would look something like this:

    Powerful Tier - Hexblade blaster, fiend blaster
    Good Tier - Hexblade bladelock, all other blaster locks
    Mediocre Tier - fiend bladelock
    Trash Tier - all other bladelocks

    The real power discrepancy is pact of the blade vs eldritch blast, not so much between the individual patrons.

    Edit: The one area where the Hexblade is just impossibly far ahead is multi-classing. Giving you medium armor, shields and the curse for a one level dip is obscene...
    Last edited by ProseBeforeHos; 2017-12-07 at 08:16 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProseBeforeHos View Post
    Edit: The one area where the Hexblade is just impossibly far ahead is multi-classing. Giving you medium armor, shields and the curse for a one level dip is obscene...
    This is almost certainly true. They could have just made warlocks an Int class...
    Last edited by krugaan; 2017-12-07 at 01:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProseBeforeHos View Post
    "So much more" is an overstatement but the comparison between the patrons isn't entirely cut and dry. Fey has much better cc options (sleep and faerie fire at low levels), fiend has the best aoe damage (fireball, wall of fire) and has good defensive options vs spells (something which hexblade doesn't have). Great old one has perhaps the best single ability of any warlock patron (create thrall) and even celestial can fill a healing niche in a party that already has good single target dpr, but lacks for a cleric.

    If I had to create a warlock "tier list" it would look something like this:

    Powerful Tier - Hexblade blaster, fiend blaster
    Good Tier - Hexblade bladelock, all other blaster locks
    Mediocre Tier - fiend bladelock
    Trash Tier - all other bladelocks

    The real power discrepancy is pact of the blade vs eldritch blast, not so much between the individual patrons.

    Edit: The one area where the Hexblade is just impossibly far ahead is multi-classing. Giving you medium armor, shields and the curse for a one level dip is obscene...
    Don't forget the cha to hit and damage too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProseBeforeHos View Post
    Powerful Tier - Hexblade blaster, fiend blaster
    Good Tier - Hexblade bladelock, all other blaster locks
    Mediocre Tier - fiend bladelock
    Trash Tier - all other bladelocks
    Somehow I'm surprised to see Fiend called out as being better than other options, without Undying called out as being worse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Somehow I'm surprised to see Fiend called out as being better than other options, without Undying called out as being worse
    What does undying get, again?
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    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan View Post
    What does undying get, again?
    1st: sanctuary effect Vs undead
    6th: small conditional self-heal on long rest
    10th: no sleep, eat, etc; slow ageing
    14th: second smaller self-heal on short rest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    1st: sanctuary effect Vs undead
    6th: small conditional self-heal on long rest
    10th: no sleep, eat, etc; slow ageing
    14th: second smaller self-heal on short rest
    Another frontloaded pact. Also, that sounds terrible.
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