LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

[zinycor]

So, I was thinking, what if at Rivendel it was decided to go with Boromir's plan, and use the ring against Sauron. How would that go? What would that change? How would they do so? And is it even possible?

[truemane]

If they decided that at the Council of Elrond, then what probably would have happened is a power struggle in Imladris. Only one of them could wield the Ring, and I think anyone who bought into the plan would be susceptible to its corrupting influence.

Who would have emerged triumphant? My money is on Elrond, since it's his place.

So that means that Boromir, the hobbits, Gilmi, Legolas, Aragorn would all have been either killed or jailed or driven out.

Elrond claiming the ring would have had disastrous consequences for Lothlorien and for Gandalf, since they possessed the Elven rings.

The Balrog would not have been defeated and would have probably laid waste to the entirety of Eriador. Unless Elrond took control over it. In which case it certainly would have.

That would make the first real conflict between Imladris and Sauruman.

I suspect Sauruman would have taken the day, since he already had an army. And the Ents would have stayed in the forest.

So Sauruman assails Imladris, takes the Ring, and then Lothlorien falls.

Meanwhile, Denethor is driven mad with grief over his son's death. Gondor is destroyed by Sauron. And Rohan is ground to dust between the forces of Mordor and Isengard.

Mordor wins. Gets Ring. Rocks fall and everyone dies.

[Sapphire Guard]

Sauron's reaction to what he believes is Aragorn with the Ring is 'HIT THEM WITH EVERYTHING I HAVE, STAT!' or as Tolkien puts it 'taken the proffered bait in jaws of steel.'

Boromir's plan was 'take the Ring to Minas Tirith.' Sauron finds out and tries to crush it. He probably succeeds in destroying Minas Tirith. If given an opportunity, the ring pulls an Isildur on Boromir in order to return to its master.

[GloatingSwine]

Either Sauron wins and they are all enslaved or killed.

Or someone with the strength of will to use the Ring gets hold of it, uses it, and is corrupted by it and becomes a dark lord as vile as Sauron.

No other outcomes come from trying to use the Ring, lose to Sauron or become him.

[Talakeal]

I believe the official answer is that the ring would have filled their head with delusions of overconfidence until they challenged Sauron directly, at which point they would have been defeated and he would have taken his ring back.

If someone with a great deal of personal power and the wisdom to not take the bait and only fight Sauron on their own terms such as Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel, or Gandalf then they would have eventually defeated Sauron, replaced him as lord of middle earth, and established a totalitarian state based on their own personal ideas about what is best for the world.

[Traab]

I believe the official answer is that the ring would have filled their head with delusions of overconfidence until they challenged Sauron directly, at which point they would have been defeated and he would have taken his ring back.

If someone with a great deal of personal power and the wisdom to not take the bait and only fight Sauron on their own terms such as Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel, or Gandalf then they would have eventually defeated Sauron, replaced him as lord of middle earth, and established a totalitarian state based on their own personal ideas about what is best for the world.

Yeah this, basically. At BEST they replace sauron as eventual evil overlord, at worst they pick a fight they cant win and sauron gets his groove back. The thing is, using the ring doesnt even make sense. Nobody knows what it can do besides enslave the other ring holders, and make you invisible. Ok, so lets say that works, the nazgul dont work for sauron anymore. Big whoop. Now you just have to deal with his hundred thousand orc army. And thats assuming you can figure out how to make the ring do what you want. Even if gandalf, elrond, or galadriel DO overthrow sauron, they cant truly kill him. The ring is a part of his very soul. So long as it exists, so does sauron. So enjoy dealing with that every so many years. Gaaah there is just so much wrong with boromirs plan its almost impossible to quantify all the ways its a terrible plan. At least the old saw about getting the eagles for a lift makes SOME sense. Theoretically it could work. get the eagles to bring frodo and sam to mt doom. Yes it would still take awhile, but not even remotely as long, the nazgul are still on foot at this stage trying to get back to mordor so no flying wraiths to deal with, the sheer speed and distance they can travel per day makes setting up a trap problematic, and again, the sheer speed means corruption potential is minimized. They arent marching for months with it whispering in their ears, closer to a week at most. Hell send elrond along since he was at least able to insist it be destroyed at the cracks of mt doom, if frodo balks, hurl his hobbit butt into the lava.

[Jay R]

Maybe somebody could use it. But at the end of the great war, whoever is using the Ring becomes the Dark Lord.

Hobbits were able to (somewhat, for a limited time) resist the power of the ring. But more powerful entities could not.


When Frodo offer the ring to Gandalf, in Bag End:
"No!" cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. "With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly. " His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. "Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have need of it. Great perils lie before me."


At the Council, Elrond said, "We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so. I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it."


When Frodo offered the Ring to Galadriel, Sam said, "I wish you'd take his Ring. You'd put things to rights. You'd stop them digging up the Gaffer and turning him adrift. You'd make some folks pay for their dirty work.

"I would, " she said. "That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas. We will speak no more of it. Let us go."

[Sapphire Guard]

There's a lot of problems with the Eagle plans too.

1. Finding the Eagles (in the book).
2. Getting them to agree with the plan.
3. Avoiding being seen (the first thing they meet on leaving Rivendell is the crabain. Their enemies have plenty of airborne spies (and palantir). At one point Frodo is nearly 'broke' just because Sauron nearly noticed him standing on a tall hill. The Nazgul may be grounded, but their steeds can still be around.
4. They don't have unlimited range. First thing Gandalf asks Gwaihir.

"How far can you bear me?"
"Many Leagues, but not to the ends of the earth."

5. The eagles could be tempted by the ring too.

[zinycor]

Let's not talk about the eagle's plan. If you wish to do so, please make another post.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah this, basically. At BEST they replace sauron as eventual evil overlord, at worst they pick a fight they cant win and sauron gets his groove back. The thing is, using the ring doesnt even make sense. Nobody knows what it can do besides enslave the other ring holders, and make you invisible.

My understanding of it is the Ring basically held a reservoir of Sauron's magical power, anchoring it in a way that allowed it to be tapped without diminishing the user (recalling that one of the fundamental traits of Lord of the Rings magic is that an act of creation requires a permanent investment from the creator - making a bunch of evil minions directly weakens the Evil Overlord.) It doesn't have specific powers of its own, exactly, aside from the backdoor into the other rings. Taking over the Ring and using it against Sauron would both be denying that resource to him and giving the user that reserve of power to use with their own existing magic, allowing them to use it with much less caution and much more aggressively - without something like the Ring the other magical beings of the world could attempt to directly fight Sauron, but chances are they'd have to expend themselves into impotence to do it.

[LibraryOgre]

I understand that there was a video game at one point where you COULD give the ring to Gandalf, and Gandalf could then pretty much trash all the armies of Middle Earth.

[The Jack]

For thematic reasons, tolkien's worldview and the setting's examples

There's no way Tolkien would've wrote a happy ending for anyone who intended to use the ring for good.

Good is flawed by giving in to Evil. Good is best when it returns to good.
Evil is Evil.
The Ring is Evil.
Therefore, giving into the Ring is a flaw.


I don't agree with the guy's worldview, but he wrote the world.

[Talakeal]

I understand that there was a video game at one point where you COULD give the ring to Gandalf, and Gandalf could then pretty much trash all the armies of Middle Earth.

I know in Battle for Middle Earth II you can give it to Galadriel, and she then becomes crazy kung-fu chick who tosses orcs around like Neo fighting Agent Smith clones in the Matrix sequels.

[zimmerwald1915]

if frodo balks, hurl his hobbit butt into the lava.

I'm not sure the Professor would have approved of this cold calculus. Gollum was permitted to attempt murder at the Sammath Naur for the the sake of the Ring because 1) he did not succeed, 2) he did not ultimately obtain the Ring for himself even if that was his object and 3) it cost him his life.

[Fyraltari]

For what it's worth Tolkien stated in one letter that "among the forces of good" only Gandalf was powerful enough to force the Ring to switch it allegiance from Sauron to him and even then it would take time and effort. Cue much debates on wether Saruman could do so as well.

The thing is, using the ring doesnt even make sense. Nobody knows what it can do besides enslave the other ring holders, and make you invisible. Ok, so lets say that works, the nazgul dont work for sauron anymore. Big whoop. Now you just have to deal with his hundred thousand orc army.

The Ring is the Ring of Domination, it allows you to read and direct the thought of all the Ringbearers (which is why the Three were hidden rather than used against Sauron) it also gives power to command those who are evil (Sauron uses mind control on his armies anyway). It also seems to give Sam the ability to understand the tongues of Orcs. Finally Galadriel says that the Ring give power according to one's initial strength. Hobbits gets invisibility and better hearing because being unseen is what they are good at, but an elf-lord or a wizard wouldsee their own powers, especially their power to command lesser wills, increase manyfold. Gandalf having mastered the Ring could command not only the Nazgûl but vast armies of orcs, men and maybe even elves.

And thats assuming you can figure out how to make the ring do what you want. Even if gandalf, elrond, or galadriel DO overthrow sauron, they cant truly kill him. The ring is a part of his very soul. So long as it exists, so does sauron.

Sauron like any of the Ainur cannot actually die anyway, all the Ring does is allow him not to lose his power where a he is fatally struck. Should the Ring truly yield to another being, its power wouldn't be Sauron's and he would diminish (or be unable to regenarate anymore)

So enjoy dealing with that every so many years. Gaaah there is just so much wrong with boromirs plan its almost impossible to quantify all the ways its a terrible plan.

You mean beside toying with an artifact of concentrated evil?

At least the old saw about getting the eagles for a lift makes SOME sense. Theoretically it could work. get the eagles to bring frodo and sam to mt doom. Yes it would still take awhile, but not even remotely as long, the nazgul are still on foot at this stage trying to get back to mordor so no flying wraiths to deal with, the sheer speed and distance they can travel per day makes setting up a trap problematic, and again, the sheer speed means corruption potential is minimized. They arent marching for months with it whispering in their ears, closer to a week at most. Hell send elrond along since he was at least able to insist it be destroyed at the cracks of mt doom, if frodo balks, hurl his hobbit butt into the lava.

I don't think the guy who can summon clouds of ash has to worry about controlling his airspace. In the Hobbit the Eagles are worried about the Men of the valleys of Anduin shooting them down with their bows, I don't see them reaching Mt Doom without a diversion to soak the armies off the Gorgoroth plateau. As for Elrond, he states that Glorfindel is too powerful to go anywhere near Mordor unspotted, I would assume the same applies to him, one the most powerful healers on the continent and wielder of the second most powerful Ring of Power.

EDIT: Also Elrond does not throw people into lava. If he did they wouldn't be there in the first place. And no-one in Middle-Earth has the will power to actually throw the Ring into the Crack of Doom (with or without a sacrificial victim). Standing on the sideline telling someone else to do it? Sure. Doing it themselves? Nope.

[Talakeal]

For what it's worth Tolkien stated in one letter that "among the forces of good" only Gandalf was powerful enough to force the Ring to switch it allegiance from Sauron to him and even then it would take time and effort. Cue much debates on wether Saruman could do so as well.

We have this quote to go on:

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.']

[Vinyadan]

I understand that there was a video game at one point where you COULD give the ring to Gandalf, and Gandalf could then pretty much trash all the armies of Middle Earth.

If that game is pre-patch Battle for Middle-Earth, Gandalf could already trash anything and everything, one-shot Balrogs, explode the Nazgul, and destroy castle gates with his sword of lightning.

After the patch, he couldn't destroy gates any more

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Tom Bombadil for ultimate dark lord.

Jar Jar Binks as well, for good measure.

[LibraryOgre]

Tom Bombadil for ultimate dark lord.

Jar Jar Binks as well, for good measure.

I know I reference it all the time, but, Oldest and Fatherless?

[Reddish Mage]

I'm not sure the Professor would have approved of this cold calculus. Gollum was permitted to attempt murder at the Sammath Naur for the the sake of the Ring because 1) he did not succeed, 2) he did not ultimately obtain the Ring for himself even if that was his object and 3) it cost him his life.

Permitted by who? Also what about Gollum. Supposedly anyone who got the ring would have either been defeated by Sauron or, if truly powerful enough, replace Sauron. Yet Gollum had the ring for centuries and never wished to do anything but hide in his hovel with the ring. The ring's way out was to get itself to Bilbo.

[Aeson]

Permitted by who?

The author, presumably.

Also what about Gollum. Supposedly anyone who got the ring would have either been defeated by Sauron or, if truly powerful enough, replace Sauron. Yet Gollum had the ring for centuries and never wished to do anything but hide in his hovel with the ring. The ring's way out was to get itself to Bilbo.

I think the bit about anyone who claimed the Ring for themselves either being defeated by Sauron or replacing Sauron has to do with two things:
One, most of the people about whom this comes up wanted the Ring - at least notionally - for the purpose of using its power to oppose Sauron.

Two, once Sauron has enough power and influence in the world, he's coming after whoever holds the Ring, regardless of whether or not the Ring's bearer knows of or desires the Ring's true power or is merely content to sit in a dark, dank hole under a mountain for all eternity. The various realms of the free peoples of Middle-Earth are not in a position to ultimately defeat Sauron or his puppet empires without either using or destroying the Ring; they will ultimately fall even if Sauron does not recover the Ring before he becomes master of the world. Once that happens, Sauron quite literally has all the time in the world to look for his Ring, which wants to be found, and lacks any minor distractions such as preparation for - or fighting - wars with any of the few powers which yet had any significant ability to oppose him circa T.A.3000 preventing him from focusing his full attention - and that of his greatest and most loyal servants - on finding it. Even if it is still with Gollum in a dank, dark pit under a mountain, Sauron will eventually find it and come to take it, or at least send powerful, loyal servants such as the Nazgul to recover it, and whoever holds the Ring will be compelled to oppose Sauron and his servants if they desire to retain the Ring.

Whether they desired the power of the Ring from the start or were merely content to moulder in a pit for all eternity so long as they held it, the time will eventually come when the Ring-bearer must either overthrow Sauron or lose possession of the Ring, and in order to defeat Sauron in such a confrontation it is almost certain that the Ring-bearer will have to take the Ring's power for themselves. It's likely that even an entity of such inherent power as to be able to defeat Sauron without having to claim the Ring's power - should any such being exist within the confines of Middle-Earth by the time of the War of the Ring - would be sorely tempted by the Ring during such a confrontation.

[Reddish Mage]

It's likely that even an entity of such inherent power as to be able to defeat Sauron without having to claim the Ring's power - should any such being exist within the confines of Middle-Earth by the time of the War of the Ring - would be sorely tempted by the Ring during such a confrontation.

Who the heck could beat Sauron at the height of his strength without the Ring? I seem to recall Sauron only lost the ring because of luck. Sauron has never been overpowered and the only beings higher than Sauron on the scale are the gods that have agreed not to interfere directly in Middle Earth, except for Morgoth .

[zimmerwald1915]

Who the heck could beat Sauron at the height of his strength without the Ring? I seem to recall Sauron only lost the ring because of luck. Sauron has never been overpowered and the only beings higher than Sauron on the scale are the gods that have agreed not to interfere directly in Middle Earth, except for Morgoth.

Sauron has been overpowered a number of times - notably by Huan and Luthien. And while Gil-Galad and Elendil perished in the attempt, they did bring Sauron low enough for Isildur to cut off his finger. Albeit the manner in which they did so is left vague and the movies make it seem otherwise.

[hamishspence]

Who the heck could beat Sauron at the height of his strength without the Ring? I seem to recall Sauron only lost the ring because of luck.

He lost the ring (at least in the books, and Tolkien tie-material like his Letters) because the body that wore the ring was killed by the heroes Elendil and Gil-galad - who died in the process.


Letters:

"It ends with the overthrow of Sauron and destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil. But at a cost, and with one disastrous mistake. Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows."



It's only in the movie that the ring is slashed off the hand of a living, fully functional Sauron - who is foolish enough to put his hand within slashing range of Isildur.

[Fyraltari]

Sauron has been overpowered a number of times - notably by Huan and Luthien. And while Gil-Galad and Elendil perished in the attempt, they did bring Sauron low enough for Isildur to cut off his finger. Albeit the manner in which they did so is left vague and the movies make it seem otherwise.

Sauron had no Ring that one time, though. But yeah his track record of fighting is rather poor as he is both a coward and a schemer not a fighter.

He lost the ring (at least in the books, and Tolkien tie-material like his Letters) because the body that wore the ring was killed by the heroes Elendil and Gil-galad - who died in the process.


Letters:

"It ends with the overthrow of Sauron and destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil. But at a cost, and with one disastrous mistake. Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows."

I seem to recall Isildur claiming (in Unfinished Tales ?) to Elrond, who was there and would know the truth of it, that he dealt the killing blow to Sauron.

It's only in the movie that the ring is slashed off the hand of a living, fully functional Sauron - who is foolish enough to put his hand within slashing range of Isildur.

It isn't mentionned in the movie but, in the book Isildur writes that the heat of Sauron's hand killed Gil-Galad so that was probably what Sauron was going for in that scene: burning that uppity Dùnedain's face off.

[Aeson]

Sauron had no Ring that one time, though. But yeah his track record of fighting is rather poor as he is both a coward and a schemer not a fighter.

Third Age Sauron doesn't have the Ring, either, and if I recall correctly Gandalf indicates to Frodo that Third Age Sauron without the Ring is only a shadow of the power of Third Age Sauron with it. First Age Sauron, who hasn't yet bound a significant fraction of his power into the Ring, may not be as powerful as Second/Third Age Sauron with the Ring (although it's a bit difficult to be sure since First Age Sauron is also closer to the strength of time-of-creation Sauron while latter-day Sauron is presumably somewhat diminished through long years of putting his strength into warping Creation), but I'd think it quite likely that First Age Sauron is still more powerful than Third Age Sauron without his Ring.

[Fyraltari]

Third Age Sauron doesn't have the Ring, either, and if I recall correctly Gandalf indicates to Frodo that Third Age Sauron without the Ring is only a shadow of the power of Third Age Sauron with it. First Age Sauron, who hasn't yet bound a significant fraction of his power into the Ring, may not be as powerful as Second/Third Age Sauron with the Ring (although it's a bit difficult to be sure since First Age Sauron is also closer to the strength of time-of-creation Sauron while latter-day Sauron is presumably somewhat diminished through long years of putting his strength into warping Creation), but I'd think it quite likely that First Age Sauron is still more powerful than Third Age Sauron without his Ring.

Part of the point of the Ring is that it allows him to draw from the Power of the other 19 Rings of Power who were made by Elves, so Sauron was more powerful with it than before.

Also during the War of the Last Alliance, Sauron had only had around a hundred years to get better from losing his body when Nùmenor sank, when at the End of the Third Age he's had had around three millenia so he probably was in better form.

[Vinyadan]

Third Age Sauron doesn't have the Ring, either, and if I recall correctly Gandalf indicates to Frodo that Third Age Sauron without the Ring is only a shadow of the power of Third Age Sauron with it. First Age Sauron, who hasn't yet bound a significant fraction of his power into the Ring, may not be as powerful as Second/Third Age Sauron with the Ring (although it's a bit difficult to be sure since First Age Sauron is also closer to the strength of time-of-creation Sauron while latter-day Sauron is presumably somewhat diminished through long years of putting his strength into warping Creation), but I'd think it quite likely that First Age Sauron is still more powerful than Third Age Sauron without his Ring.

Actually, Sauron seemed to have a fairly conservative approach to his own power, to the point that in the Second Age he was stronger than Morgoth was at the end of the First Age. This was because Morgoth immediately began using his power for incredible feats, such as raising the Misty Mountains, changing the weather, and creating the Dragons. He forced so much of his power into the world, that Tolkien said that Arda itself had turned into his Ring.

Instead, Sauron had much of the work already done for him. He also put much more effort into seducing others; the corruption of Numenor was probably his greatest feat. I do wonder what he was expecting would happen, though. Maybe he thought that Ar-Pharazon would conquer some territory, like Tol Eressea. Maybe he wanted him to die while fighting the Valar, as a way to spit in their face while cruelly enjoying his defeat. Turning friend against friend was something he is said to be good at by Gandalf. Instead, he was not expecting physical Numenor to be destroyed. This happened because Manwe gave up his power as "Lord of the World" to Eru, and Eru did not pull his punches. Giving up his own power to a higher authority was probably unthinkable to Sauron, which explains why he was caught by surprise when the sea overcame him.

Sauron's powers are occasionally described. He could craft rings of power, and he was the best in Middle-Earth at it. He knew spellsongs. He had daunting eyes that could challenge people's will. He could put evil spirits into living creatures, which he did to create werewolves. He could change into many forms. His magic could cover a land, and, when it came into contact with that of the good maia Melian, it created corridors of madness and such an environment, that humans could find nothing to eat, and large spiders would populate the area. Even before he had the Palantir, he could spy a whole vale from his tower. He was a "a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul
in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves", and could summon fear against his enemies. He could try to read the thoughts of certain individuals, even if far away.

Anyway, I think that Tolkien's definition of Arda as Morgoth's ring is interesting. It explains a bit how the Ring worked. Sauron put his power into it, but he expected the Ring to return it back with interests. We know that he expected to control the wearers of the other rings. It worked with the Nazgul, who were ultra-scary and very powerful: Aragorn and Glorflindel weren't strong enough to defeat the whole of them while mounted, and Glorfindel wasn't just anybody (according to later texts, he may have been as powerful as a Maia, except he couldn't change his shape). He used it to build the foundations of Barad-Dur, which were not destroyed until the Ring melted. He could have used the Ring to read the thoughts of other ring wearers. But this all backfired, compared to Morgoth's ring, in that no one was willing to nuke Middle-Earth into pieces to destroy Morgoth, which could be done with the Ring.

[Reddish Mage]

First Age Sauron is also closer to the strength of time-of-creation Sauron while latter-day Sauron is presumably somewhat diminished through long years of putting his strength into warping Creation), but I'd think it quite likely that First Age Sauron is still more powerful than Third Age Sauron without his Ring.

What's the point of warping creation if you just get weaker from doing it?

Anyway, I think that Tolkien's definition of Arda as Morgoth's ring is interesting. It explains a bit how the Ring worked. Sauron put his power into it, but he expected the Ring to return it back with interest... He used it to build the foundations of Barad-Dur, which were not destroyed until the Ring melted. He could have used the Ring to read the thoughts of other ring wearers. But this all backfired, compared to Morgoth's ring, in that no one was willing to nuke Middle-Earth into pieces to destroy Morgoth, which could be done with the Ring.

So he gets more powerful so long as he has the ring, and also he didn't really need to warp Creation because Morgoth did it for him. All Sauron does is pour his energies into the ring expecting it to make him even more powerful. It makes sense.

[Aeson]

What's the point of warping creation if you just get weaker from doing it?

To impose your will upon the world, shaping and ordering it as you see fit?