Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Rater202]

But in the "original timeline" they did go there in the first place, which they only did because they knew of Goku Black and the loop. There is no difference presented, or that I can think of as even slightly plausible, that would change whether Zamasu got destroyed without also changing whether Zamasu met and fought Goku.

Look, yu're just gonna have to accept on Faith that somehow,they didn't know about the loop last time.

Maybe Beerus and Whis weren't physically present.

OrMaybe Goku and Zamasu met under differant circumstances in the original timeline.

[Douglas]

The depiction shown in the anime is pretty clear that Goku and Zamasu's "original" meeting was exactly the same as the one in the final timeline. Could be different in the manga, I suppose. So far I'm considering it a plot hole. Those are certainly plentiful enough in all sorts of media.

Of course, there's also the issue of why Zamasu didn't skip all the risky intermediate steps and just wish for all mortals to be killed. That one's easily explainable as him wanting the visceral satisfaction of doing it himself, or just overlooking the possibility, though. And for all his forethought, it was rather careless of him to not make Black's body immortal too.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Episode 122 - Not a Worf

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It was a defeat, but I wouldn't call it "Worfing". Vegeta He didn't lose just to show us how powerful Jiren is. We already had scenes with Jiran showing his powers (against Goku, no less!) Vegeta lost so that he can be motivated to go beyond his limits (in the very next episode, according to the preview).

Vegeta didn't go through anything that Goku himself didn't. In fact, he actually fared quite better than Goku did (in SSJ Blue). If anyone was "worfed", it was Goku when he first fought Jiren.

- - -

Kinda off how Jiren actually bothere dmoving against SSJB Goku this time... I guess the power-up Goku got from his battle against Kefla was quite substantial. Of course, that doesn't explain why Vegeta can suddenly do much better than Goku did, so that's another point for "DBS is as consistent as gelatine in an earthquake";

Spoiler: Episode 122

Show

Then he got Yamcha'd.

Different word. Same result.

Vegeta literally just repeated his fight with Cell: the punch to the gut, the bragging, the charging for his final flash, the ending up in a crater, his power depleted.

this episode was simply "Vegeta getting beat up for his pride" O'clock, meeting his quota, so what if he punched Jiren in the gut, Jiren is still unscratched and taking them both easily, means jack squat for all the good it does Vegeta.

-_-

[tonberrian]

The depiction shown in the anime is pretty clear that Goku and Zamasu's "original" meeting was exactly the same as the one in the final timeline. Could be different in the manga, I suppose. So far I'm considering it a plot hole. Those are certainly plentiful enough in all sorts of media.

Of course, there's also the issue of why Zamasu didn't skip all the risky intermediate steps and just wish for all mortals to be killed. That one's easily explainable as him wanting the visceral satisfaction of doing it himself, or just overlooking the possibility, though. And for all his forethought, it was rather careless of him to not make Black's body immortal too.

I remember this, in the anime Goku Black specifically has Goku's lust for battles and feels that the immortality would be too cheap or some such. It definitely came up in one of the clips I saw.

[Rater202]

It should also be noted that Future Zamasu in all likely hood didn't wish for immortality for the sake of being immortal.

The Zamasu's plan is dependant on killing all of the other Gods so that they won't stop the Zero Mortals Plan.

Zama, as a Supreme Kai, has his life tied to that of his universe's God of Destruction--if all a Universe's Supreme Kais bite it, so does the God ofDestruction, and if he GoD goes down he takes the kais with him.

Being immortal bypasses that and allows Future Zamasu to kill Future... Elephant without killing himself in the process.(Presumably, Goku Black's body switch would have protected him if he'd stayed in his own timeline instead of moving to the Future Timeline)

Furthermore: Goku Black did the body switch specifically because he both coveted and was afraid of Goku's power and potential for growth, and that potential for growth inherant in Goku's body did interesting things when combined with Zamasu's power(Goku Black's Zenkai Boosts were ludicrously powerful and he got a new power every time he got one, which he also got mid fight with significantly less damage.)

He's clearly the ultimate being, so why would he need to be immortal?

[Douglas]

He's clearly the ultimate being, so why would he need to be immortal?

Because why settle for an almost certain plan when only a relatively small increase in effort will make it a certain plan?

Of course, to be truly certain he would have needed to ask, and get a favorable verdict on, the question of whether Super Shenron can kill Zeno.

[Rater202]

Because why settle for an almost certain plan when only a relatively small increase in effort will make it a certain plan?

You severely underestimate the arrogance of gods, visionaries, and insane hypocrites.

[jindra34]

Spoiler: Re:122 Spec:123

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So... Jiren started out sandbagging against both Vegeta and Goku. And got slightly punished for it. And tanked another final attack. *sigh* Well it seems Jiren's strategy is to break both the mind and body. And Freeza did you just get OWNED by the weakest enemy yet? Tisk Tisk, sloppy you.
Also I don't think Vegeta will be getting UI, but something closer to SSB2, and then we'll get a true tag team combo on Jiren. Also suspect time is going to end up being a bigger factor than KOs at this point.

[Lemmy]

Spoiler: Episode 122

Show

Then he got Yamcha'd.

Different word. Same result.

Vegeta literally just repeated his fight with Cell: the punch to the gut, the bragging, the charging for his final flash, the ending up in a crater, his power depleted.

this episode was simply "Vegeta getting beat up for his pride" O'clock, meeting his quota, so what if he punched Jiren in the gut, Jiren is still unscratched and taking them both easily, means jack squat for all the good it does Vegeta.

-_-

Spoiler: Ep 122

Show

Not a Yamcha either.
In the Cell fight, Vegeta did get Worfed. He was beat just to show how powerful the new enemy was, and never got anything from it. Except an excuse to be relegated to the sidelines again.

This time, he was defeated, but if the preview is to be trusted (and I don't see why it shouldn't be), Vegeta will (immediately) use this defeat/loss as motivation to wake a new power.

[Mikeavelli]

I remember this, in the anime Goku Black specifically has Goku's lust for battles and feels that the immortality would be too cheap or some such. It definitely came up in one of the clips I saw.

Having an immortal body would cheapen any battles he fought because there was no risk of losing. As a more practical concern, this would also severely limit his ability to grow in power over time, which seemed to be his main reason for not becoming immortal as Black.

[khadgar567]

you know kirrilin is kinda bench mark of human in the arc were ten of the absolute powerful people are fighting to keep their universe safe. if you look the tournament team besides him they are either aliens( goku vegita, piccolo and frieza), augmented human( augmented is the key word here)( both androids)and half alien half human hybrid( gohan). so he is not weaker than most of them he is out of his own league when nearly all your team mates are have deck stacked for their own benifit. and on the vegita gets ultra instinct part its kinda about time since his pride kinda beaten out of him with only way he have is swallow that huge lump he have in his throat and unlock the humbleness power up that flashing in the line.

[Jayngfet]

Except Vegeta's power clearly isn't Ultra Instinct.

[khadgar567]

Except Vegeta's power clearly isn't Ultra Instinct.

the theory spinning in thew web is he got the attack point of the instinct and goku have the defensive instinct part so its kinda my version is goku and vegita gonna need to fusion dance so they kinda get the full instinct so they can beat jirren since goku cant hit him and vegita cant defend him self and check whis in both episodes he does the same expresion in same time for both of them. I bet a full set of dragon balls that next epidode vegita gets his part of the instinct then.

[zimmerwald1915]

the theory spinning in thew web is he got the attack point of the instinct and goku have the defensive instinct part so its kinda my version is goku and vegita gonna need to fusion dance so they kinda get the full instinct so they can beat jirren since goku cant hit him and vegita cant defend him self and check whis in both episodes he does the same expresion in same time for both of them. I bet a full set of dragon balls that next epidode vegita gets his part of the instinct then.

I'd take those odds if there weren't rules against gambling here.

The idea that UI has "sides," "parts," or "facets" is somewhat nonsensical. It's not a style, it's a state of being that one is either in or not in, and that one has either mastered or not. Goku has entered UI but failed to master it. No one else in U7 has entered it at all.

[Anteros]

I'd take those odds if there weren't rules against gambling here.

The idea that UI has "sides," "parts," or "facets" is somewhat nonsensical. It's not a style, it's a state of being that one is either in or not in, and that one has either mastered or not. Goku has entered UI but failed to master it. No one else in U7 has entered it at all.

That doesn't mesh with what we've seen on the show though. Goku has explicitly gained the defensive side of it, but has to stop to think when he wants to attack which leaves him vulnerable. The subtext here being that Goku is a more defensive fighter, so the ultra defense comes more naturally to him. It's just as reasonable that a more offensive fighter would find that part of ultra instinct more natural and master it first.

As an aside: I don't think Super got this bit of characterization correct. Goku's fighting style has always been more offensive than defensive while Vegeta prefers to defend and counter attack.

[Rater202]

Vegeta's most well-known moves are two energy beams that he has to sit wide open and charge for them to be maximally effective and one where he literally blows himself up.

Dude's moves are pure offense.

[Lord Raziere]

As an aside: I don't think Super got this bit of characterization correct. Goku's fighting style has always been more offensive than defensive while Vegeta prefers to defend and counter attack.

no its that Goku thinks more about attack, while Vegeta thinks more about defense. thus Goku does defense automatically while Vegeta does offense automatically, thus they get Ultra Instinct of stuff they do automatically, because they don't think about those parts, but don't get Ultra Instinct for the parts they do focus on, because putting any thought it into it at all is overthinking things for Ultra Instinct.

[Lemmy]

you know kirrilin is kinda bench mark of human in the arc were ten of the absolute powerful people are fighting to keep their universe safe. if you look the tournament team besides him they are either aliens( goku vegita, piccolo and frieza), augmented human( augmented is the key word here)( both androids)and half alien half human hybrid( gohan). so he is not weaker than most of them he is out of his own league when nearly all your team mates are have deck stacked for their own benifit. and on the vegita gets ultra instinct part its kinda about time since his pride kinda beaten out of him with only way he have is swallow that huge lump he have in his throat and unlock the humbleness power up that flashing in the line.

To be fair, I don't think Krillin is weaker than the androids... Well, maybe #17, since the current writers seem to have a huge hardon for him... But that's mostly because of Super's utter disregard for consistency with anything established in Z.

In the Buu saga, Android 18 and Krillin were about equal on power.

DBZ always had basically 5 power levels:

Main villain > Goku > Vegeta > Piccollo > Everyone else > non-combatants (Bulma & co)... With Goku or Gohan taking the #1 spot using their newest transformation.

[Delicious Taffy]

Just a few quick responses:

Zamasu's timeline nonsense isn't worth thinking too hard about.

Krillin isn't the only human on the team.

Ultra Instinct apparently fills in gaps in a fighter's technique, or something like that.

Vegeta getting his ass blasted wasn't done to show how much tougher anybody else is.

[Tono]

So, if Vegeta does get a new form/power up, would this be the first time we see him get it? Unless i am miss remembering SS, SS2, and SSB were all given to him out side of a fight or off screen. I don't remember GT that well, but I am pretty sure Bulma gave him 4.

And still waiting for the Gohan foreshadowing to pay off.

[Devonix]

Yeah Krillin isn't the only human. Tien's human, Roshi's Human And last I heard A person being a cyborg still counts as human.

[Lemmy]

So, if Vegeta does get a new form/power up, would this be the first time we see him get it? Unless i am miss remembering SS, SS2, and SSB were all given to him out side of a fight or off screen. I don't remember GT that well, but I am pretty sure Bulma gave him 4.

And still waiting for the Gohan foreshadowing to pay off.

Well... We (kind of) see him achieving SS... In a flashback, but we do.

[Jan Mattys]

So, if Vegeta does get a new form/power up, would this be the first time we see him get it? Unless i am miss remembering SS, SS2, and SSB were all given to him out side of a fight or off screen. I don't remember GT that well, but I am pretty sure Bulma gave him 4.

And still waiting for the Gohan foreshadowing to pay off.

More importantly, I think that unless Vegeta's new power unlock is the same ultra-instinct that Goku already has, then it's the first time we see Vegeta getting something first.

Goku, got to SS first
Gohan got to SS2 first
Goku got to SS3, SS4, SSB and UI first.

Am I right?
So if Vegeta gets a different power up, or the attack part of UI, it would be kinda cool since for the first time we see him not playing catch up but developing his own strenghts and weaknesses.
Kinda refreshing.

[Phexar]

More importantly, I think that unless Vegeta's new power unlock is the same ultra-instinct that Goku already has, then it's the first time we see Vegeta getting something first.

Goku, got to SS first
Gohan got to SS2 first
Goku got to SS3, SS4, SSB and UI first.

Am I right?
So if Vegeta gets a different power up, or the attack part of UI, it would be kinda cool since for the first time we see him not playing catch up but developing his own strenghts and weaknesses.
Kinda refreshing.

Vegeta (and Future Trunks) did get Super Saiyan Second Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan ahead of Goku though I think, but that's all. They were in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber first and went off to confront Semi-Perfect Cell, with Goku and Gohan training in there after them.

Vegeta also achieved Super Saiyan Third Grade but we never see him using it unlike Future Trunks since he was aware of the downside of all that bulk.

Both of the above are more a case of overclocking Super Saiyan though and not really true transformations on their own, so it remains to be seen if Vegeta's new power is any different or whether it's an enhanced version of Super Saiyan Blue.

[Anteros]

Vegeta's most well-known moves are two energy beams that he has to sit wide open and charge for them to be maximally effective and one where he literally blows himself up.

Dude's moves are pure offense.

That could be said for most characters in the show.

Watch most of his hand to hand fights. He loves to counter punch.

https://youtu.be/CaDFNetYzEA?t=2m55s

Start at 2:55 if the time thing doesn't work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykKmDkCCZRM

https://youtu.be/txPshQHfzjk?t=1m51s

I tried to find some more clips from Z but those fights are all so drawn out with posturing and pointless monologuing that it's hard to give good examples. Things like catching Cell's tail and countering, or his second fight against Zarbon, or even his most recent fight against Jiren. He lets his enemy attack to look for weaknesses. Obviously there are also examples of him not doing this, but this method always stood out to me as Vegeta's style.

To be fair, I don't think Krillin is weaker than the androids... Well, maybe #17, since the current writers seem to have a huge hardon for him... But that's mostly because of Super's utter disregard for consistency with anything established in Z.

In the Buu saga, Android 18 and Krillin were about equal on power.

DBZ always had basically 5 power levels:

Main villain > Goku > Vegeta > Piccollo > Everyone else > non-combatants (Bulma & co)... With Goku or Gohan taking the #1 spot using their newest transformation.

He is explicitly weaker than 18. She has said as much to him while offering to help him fight, and he agreed with her.

[Starwulf]

And last I heard A person being a cyborg still counts as human.

For the purposes of getting stronger, they are considered human, but they have infinite energy, so they are considered "Altered Humans", which puts them in a different category from Roshi/Tien/Yamcha/Krillin.

[Devonix]

For the purposes of getting stronger, they are considered human, but they have infinite energy, so they are considered "Altered Humans", which puts them in a different category from Roshi/Tien/Yamcha/Krillin.

This episode all but confirms for me that the whole tournament is the Grand Priest's way of teaching the Xeno's about mortality and how it's wrong to break your toys.

[Gandariel]

Another possibility I've read on Reddit is that Jiren is actually trying to train and recruit Goku and Vegeta on his own quest to revolt against the angels (because he doesn't approve their idea of justice or something like that)

Would explain why he knocked off Hit (as he is an assassin and wouldn't want him with him) but didn't do so with any of the Saiyans, and instead seems to be actively trying to get them stronger (as he did with Vegeta: he wasn't hitting as hard as before, didn't knock him off, and his last attack put him down just enough for him to get the usual Saiyan boost thingy).

He also didn't knock off Goku, Kefla, or really anyone else, while it's pretty clear that he could have already won the tournament by himself.

[Anteros]

Alternatively, it's just the same arrogance that every single Dragon Ball villain ever has shown.

[Lemmy]

Well, but Jiren isn't presented as a villain, just a rival.