Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Anteros]

Toriyama doesn't like doing one-winged angel stuff and keeps his transformations pretty practical, so any more improvement would be purely functional rather than anything visual or obvious.

The last arc literally had a villain with silver hair and a shiny halo.

[Lord Raziere]

The last arc literally had a villain with silver hair and a shiny halo.

Still pretty much humanoid, no extra arms, legs or anything else wildly divergent from base body, halo got broken and was basically an iconic anima thing anyways, and his fist getting bigger was a sign of him breaking down becoming WEAKER so yeah, not very wildly divergent or out there as far as transformations go and it was fusion anyways, and the one big warping it did have wasn't intentional and wasn't indicative of greater power but of the form devolving.

if thats the most your transformation does and everything else is just practical effects, thats pretty low-key as far as transformations go.

[zimmerwald1915]

You don't get martial arts stories if you ask that question: there is no right way.

You are, of course, correct. What concerns me is that the staff won't be able to keep themselves from asking that misguided question (or what's more likely, answering it implicitly) and thus undermining their martial arts story.

[Anteros]

Still pretty much humanoid, no extra arms, legs or anything else wildly divergent from base body, halo got broken and was basically an iconic anima thing anyways, and his fist getting bigger was a sign of him breaking down becoming WEAKER so yeah, not very wildly divergent or out there as far as transformations go and it was fusion anyways, and the one big warping it did have wasn't intentional and wasn't indicative of greater power but of the form devolving.

if thats the most your transformation does and everything else is just practical effects, thats pretty low-key as far as transformations go.

Yeah...I'm just going to say it. If you think he's not going to transform again then you're just outright wrong. We've had...10 (I think?) new transformations in the last 120 episodes. We're averaging one almost every 10 episodes. They are beating this dead horse into a fine paste.

It's looking like Toppo will get one in the next few episodes, and they're alluding to something new for Gohan as well soon. I'm guessing Goku will have moved on to "Super Omen" or whatever within the next 30 episodes. They're not going to stop with the transformations until the series ends.

[Lord Raziere]

Anteros, the original Dragon Ball Z lasted about 150 episodes, and we're currently at 123 in DBs.

in DBZ:
1. Great Ape
2. Kaio-Ken
3. Zarbon's form
4. Freeza Second Form
5. Freeza Third Form
6. Freeza Final Form
7. Super Saiyan
8. Freeza Final Form 100%
9. Imperfect Cell
10. Super Saiyan Grade 2
11. Perfect Cell
10. Super Saiyan Grade 3
11. Super Saiyan Grade 4
12. Super Saiyan 2
13. Super Saiyan 3
14. Majin Buu
15. Evil Buu
16. Super Buu
17. Mystic Gohan
18. Kid Buu

Thats eighteen transformations for the 150 episode old series. if you think they're beating this dead horse now, I hate to tell ya- its already dust and just apart of what Dragon Ball is now.

[Anteros]

Anteros, the original Dragon Ball Z lasted about 150 episodes, and we're currently at 123 in DBs.

in DBZ:
1. Great Ape
2. Kaio-Ken
3. Zarbon's form
4. Freeza Second Form
5. Freeza Third Form
6. Freeza Final Form
7. Super Saiyan
8. Freeza Final Form 100%
9. Imperfect Cell
10. Super Saiyan Grade 2
11. Perfect Cell
10. Super Saiyan Grade 3
11. Super Saiyan Grade 4
12. Super Saiyan 2
13. Super Saiyan 3
14. Majin Buu
15. Evil Buu
16. Super Buu
17. Mystic Gohan
18. Kid Buu

Thats eighteen transformations for the 150 episode old series. if you think they're beating this dead horse now, I hate to tell ya- its already dust and just apart of what Dragon Ball is now.

You're not being very intellectually honest by including most of these. You know that though. Most of these aren't even real transformations, or are things that were already inherent to the characters when they were introduced and not earned on screen.

I wasn't counting things like "Jiren Red" or the love idiots from universe 2...just major transformations that are played off in the series as a big deal. You also included 4 different versions of SSJ1 just to pad your numbers even though they aren't really called out as different forms in the show or manga.

I'm very obviously talking about major new transformations for main characters that the show tries to hype up as a huge event. If I was counting every minor thing for Super like you are for Z we'd have like 30.

[Lord Raziere]

You're not being very intellectually honest by including most of these. You know that though. Most of these aren't even real transformations, or are things that were already inherent to the characters when they were introduced and not earned on screen. If we counted things like this for Super we'd be well into the dozens.

I wasn't counting things like "Jiren Red" or the love idiots from universe 2...just major transformations that are played off in the series as a big deal. You also included 4 different versions of SSJ1 just to pad your numbers even though they aren't really called out as different forms in the show or manga.

Your being even less "intellectually honest" because you didn't even list anyone then claimed that your only counting "big deal" transformations that you still haven't listed. so.......

[Anteros]

Your being even less "intellectually honest" because you didn't even list anyone then claimed that your only counting "big deal" transformations that you still haven't listed. so.......

Because I assumed you watch the show. Do you really need me to list them for you? You're just being argumentative and nit-picky instead of addressing my actual points.

Fine.
Goku Red
Goku Blue
Goku Metal
Vegeta Blue
Vegeta Blue II
Frieza Gold
Trunks Rage
SSJ Rose
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Broly

If I wanted to be like you I'd start listing every little thing like
Blue Kaio Ken
Jiren Red
Koichiarator
Anilaza
Katopesla speed
Katopesla power
Katopesla ultimate
Ribrienne
Ok I'm bored now and there's like 6 more just in universe 2 alone.

[Lord Raziere]

Because I assumed you watch the show. Do you really need me to list them for you? You're just being argumentative and nit-picky instead of addressing my actual points.

Fine.
Goku Red
Goku Blue
Goku Metal
Vegeta Blue
Vegeta Blue II
Frieza Gold
Trunks Rage
SSJ Rose
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Broly

If I wanted to be like you I'd start listing every little thing like
Blue Kaio Ken
Jiren Red
Koichiarator
Anilaza
Katopesla speed
Katopesla power
Katopesla ultimate
Ribrienne
Ok I'm bored now and there's like 6 more just in universe 2 alone.

First list almost counts, but there is no "Goku Metal" as there is no transformation where his hair turns a metal color, fusions don't count as they are not transformations theyre combining two people, so merged zamasu is not a transformation, and there is no "Vegeta blue" there is only SS Blue for both Goku and Vegeta.

second list:
blue kaioken is not a new transformation is a combination of two old ones, so doesn't count
Jiren Red counts as its basically like Saiyan Red
Koichiarator and Anilaza don't count, those are fusions
Katopesla seems to be an armor thing, so not really a transformation, since its equipment
Ribrianne counts, but those transformations all only count as one because they all use the same method.

Cell is not a fusion because his Perfect form sticks around after 18 is punched out of it, so he never really needed the androids themselves just their information to make his body Perfect.

you didn't count Ultra Instinct.

or Ganos's Thunder Bird form, that counts.

[Anteros]

Ultra instinct was the metal one. I thought that was obvious since ya'know...he looks metallic during it. Your rules about what counts and what doesn't count are arbitrary. It's fine for you to decide what you think should count, but you don't get to decide for me.

Look, I'm not interested in arguing this with you any more. We obviously have different opinions on these transformations and how the show is handling them, and no amount of nit-picking words is going to make us come to a middle ground. You have your opinion and that's fine. I respect that. Let's just disagree.

[Rater202]

Nope. It's basically all just speculation and fan fiction. There's a lot of that going on right now.

Although, to be the fair...the show itself kinda follows a lot of bad fanfiction trends lately as well.

No.

Ultra Instinct -Omen-(or sign, depending on translation) is what Heroes and Dokkan Battle call the form that gives Goku Ultra Instinct. Presumably to distinguish it from the passive Ultra Instinct that Whis and Manga!Beerus use, since in Goku's case it's a transformation and UI isn't the onyly thing it does.

That's significantly closer to canon than a fanfic(In so much that it's an official media)

[Lemmy]

I don't know why you're taking an statement as vague as "broke out of his shell" to mean "goku gets every shonen power up ever!". It seems much more likely that it's just Whis' colorful way of saying "achieved the super-awareness known as Ultra Instinct".

[Rater202]

I don't know why you're taking an statement as vague as "broke out of his shell" to mean "goku gets every shonen power up ever!". It seems much more likely that it's just Whis' colorful way of saying "achieved the super-awareness known as Ultra Instinct".

1: Right before UI Goku reveals himself, elder Kai comments that the entire battlearea--no, the entire World of Void, is trembling with Goku's power.

2: The Kai of Universe 11 expresses shock that Goku is suddenly "gaining" on Jiren and the speed at which Goku is doing so, a word choice that indicates that Goku's skill and/or Power is noticibly improving before the Kai's very eyes.

3: One of the Zeno's explicitly states that Goku suddenly got much stronger.

4: Whis's explanation of how he thinks Goku got UI boils down to "he wasn't strong enough to resist the explosion, so he pushed past all of his limits to gain enough power to do so." This is after Krillin asks Whis to clarrify his comment on thinking the Spirit Bomb was responsible for Goku's UI form, and is prefaced by Whis saying that while he thinks that Goku absorbing the Spirit Bomb restored some ofhis energy, he doesn't think that aborbing that energy is what unlocked the transformation.

[Anteros]

No.

Ultra Instinct -Omen-(or sign, depending on translation) is what Heroes and Dokkan Battle call the form that gives Goku Ultra Instinct. Presumably to distinguish it from the passive Ultra Instinct that Whis and Manga!Beerus use, since in Goku's case it's a transformation and UI isn't the onyly thing it does.

That's significantly closer to canon than a fanfic(In so much that it's an official media)

The fact that the name of the form appears in a few Dragonball related works doesn't automatically mean that all of your speculation about what the form entails is correct.

[Rater202]

The fact that the name of the form appears in a few Dragonball related works doesn't automatically mean that all of your speculation about what the form entails is correct.

No, that would be the explicit statements from Whis, Elder Kai, Zeno, and Universe 11 Kai during Goku's first transformation into the form in question.

For a third time: Kai 11 comments in shock on the rate that Goku is gaining on Jiren and Zeno explicitly states that Goku suddenly became more powerful. Whis states that it is his belief that Goku achived UIO by shattering through his limits to find the power he needed to resist the explosion of the Spirit Bomb.

[Drascin]

Nope. It's basically all just speculation and fan fiction. There's a lot of that going on right now.

Although, to be fair...the show itself kinda follows a lot of bad fanfiction trends lately as well.

You say that as though the series hasn't largely ran on fluff fanfiction writing since, like, the end of the Cell Games.

Really, the average fanfic writer writes more coherent stuff, among other things because unlike Toriyama, the average fanfic writer actually knows what is going to happen in his story more than two chapters away, while Toriyama has a history of, by his own admission, turning in a manga chapter and then sitting down with his editor to figure out what happens in the next one.

[Anteros]

None of which means the form manifests in the way you are saying it does. Yes, it makes him stronger in the sense that he's better at fighting. Duh. Everything else you said about it like unlocking potential is literally pure speculation that you just made up based off a few comments that could be interpreted multiple ways.

You say that as though the series hasn't largely ran on bad fanfiction tier writing since, like, the end of the Cell Games.

Really, the average fanfic writer writes more coherent stuff, among other things because unlike Toriyama, the average fanfic writer actually knows what is going to happen in his story more than two chapters away, while Toriyama has a history of, by his own admission, turning in a manga chapter and then sitting down with his editor to figure out what happens in the next one.

You're not wrong.

[Rater202]

Everything else you said about it like unlocking potential is literally pure speculation that you just made up based off a few comments that could be interpreted multiple ways.

I didn't make up antything.

I am going by what the characters in the actual show actually said.

Go back and watch the fight with Jiren again. Try to find it on-cut, I had to go through three videos to actually find one with the God's commentary.

1: Goku getting more powerful.

Zeno is impressed by flashy things. If it was just Goku being a more skilled fighter allof a sudden, they wouldn't have said "Goku suddenly got stronger." "Goku suddenly got Amazing."

Elder Kai states that the world of Void is Trembling from Goku's power right before the UI form is revealed.

The fact that this is when Elder Kai states this logically means that it was not trembling prior to Goku entering that form.

Following this basic chain of logic indicates that UIO is a form that makes Goku more powerful than he was in SSJBKx20.

2: Goku improving rapidly while in this form.

Universe 11 Kai freaks out and explicitly states that Goku is rapidly gaining on Jiren, a word choice that Goku's skill, power, or both are rapidly increasing rather than it just being a flat improvement.

3: Unlocked Potential.

Whis's exact words were "in that big explosion, the raging power of the spirit bomb that entered Goku san, and Goku sans own power to resist it, beyond that clash of power, Goku san broke through the shell to the deaper potential within himself." That is pretty unambiguous. It is obviously refering to Goku's UI form being the result of him tapping his full potential in order to gain enough power to survive something that would have otherwise killed him.

Like, I don't even know why we're having this conversation. You say that these lines could be interpreted multiple ways, but really they can't. And I'm not the only one who thinks this.

[Lemmy]

1: Right before UI Goku reveals himself, elder Kai comments that the entire battlearea--no, the entire World of Void, is trembling with Goku's power.

2: The Kai of Universe 11 expresses shock that Goku is suddenly "gaining" on Jiren and the speed at which Goku is doing so, a word choice that indicates that Goku's skill and/or Power is noticibly improving before the Kai's very eyes.

3: One of the Zeno's explicitly states that Goku suddenly got much stronger.

4: Whis's explanation of how he thinks Goku got UI boils down to "he wasn't strong enough to resist the explosion, so he pushed past all of his limits to gain enough power to do so." This is after Krillin asks Whis to clarrify his comment on thinking the Spirit Bomb was responsible for Goku's UI form, and is prefaced by Whis saying that while he thinks that Goku absorbing the Spirit Bomb restored some ofhis energy, he doesn't think that aborbing that energy is what unlocked the transformation.

Yes, he does get noticeably stronger. I said as much myself. That doesn't mean he suddenly has access to "his full potential" (whatever that means) or that he instantly gets stronger/more skilled in reaction to his enemy. It just means he got stronger.

He was "gaining" on Jiren because he was much slower before, so simply speeding up to match him means Goku is "gaining on him". He's getting stronger because he's getting the knack of UI, not because he just continuously becomes more powerful.

Goku achieved UI and got much stronger (possibly because of the transformation that accompanied him reaching UI). And then slowly got more and more uses to UI, making himself a more effective fighter.

That's all that we know so far. This whole "he has his full potential and gets more powerful and skilled in response to his enemy" doesn't necessarily follow. It *might* be the case, but nothing was proved or stated to that point so far.

[Lemmy]

That's actually something that bothers me... This arc is (supposedly) all about "power isn't everything" and even the new transformation is more about skill and control than power...

So why the hell is Jiren shown as an absolute powerhouse, rather than an impossibly skilled opponent. And why does Goku become more powerful in UI? That sends the exact opposite message of the supposed "theme" of the arc.

I'm guessing it has something to do with fine ki control, but there's no way to tell.

[Lord Raziere]

That's actually something that bothers me... This arc is (supposedly) all about "power isn't everything" and even the new transformation is more about skill and control than power...

So why the hell is Jiren shown as an absolute powerhouse, rather than an impossibly skilled opponent. And why does Goku become more powerful in UI? That sends the exact opposite message of the supposed "theme" of the arc.

I'm guessing it has something to do with fine ki control, but there's no way to tell.

What do you imagine as pure power without any ki control/ any kind of control whatsoever? Just a question.

[Tokay]

Anteros, the original Dragon Ball Z lasted about 150 episodes

291, actually. Super's not even half way there yet.

[Mikeavelli]

That's actually something that bothers me... This arc is (supposedly) all about "power isn't everything" and even the new transformation is more about skill and control than power...

So why the hell is Jiren shown as an absolute powerhouse, rather than an impossibly skilled opponent. And why does Goku become more powerful in UI? That sends the exact opposite message of the supposed "theme" of the arc.

I'm guessing it has something to do with fine ki control, but there's no way to tell.

In an arc about skill overcoming power, it would make sense that the final antagonist is an unstoppable powerhouse who will end up being defeated by immense skill.

[Devonix]

What do you imagine as pure power without any ki control/ any kind of control whatsoever? Just a question.

Basically every enemy up till Frieza.
Raditz
Vegeta
Nappa
The Ginyu Force
All the way up to Frieza everyone of the enemies they fought simply used all of their power all of the time. The concept of actually controlling your Ki, Raising and lowering how much power is put into an attack was alien to them as a concept and treated as some amazing skill known only to the people of Earth and the Namekians.

[Lord Raziere]

Basically every enemy up till Frieza.
Raditz
Vegeta
Nappa
The Ginyu Force
All the way up to Frieza everyone of the enemies they fought simply used all of their power all of the time. The concept of actually controlling your Ki, Raising and lowering how much power is put into an attack was alien to them as a concept and treated as some amazing skill known only to the people of Earth and the Namekians.

Do you mean up to Freeza as in he is the last one who was pure force, or the first one who didn't use pure force?

[Devonix]

Do you mean up to Freeza as in he is the last one who was pure force, or the first one who didn't use pure force?

Frieza showed some ability in Ki control though a very limited degree

[Lord Raziere]

Frieza showed some ability in Ki control though a very limited degree

The fact that he didn't train a day in his life was coasting on pure power and talent doesn't matter to you? Or does it?

Also are Guldo and Ginyu exceptions to that or not?

[Drascin]

That's actually something that bothers me... This arc is (supposedly) all about "power isn't everything" and even the new transformation is more about skill and control than power...

So why the hell is Jiren shown as an absolute powerhouse, rather than an impossibly skilled opponent. And why does Goku become more powerful in UI? That sends the exact opposite message of the supposed "theme" of the arc.

I'm guessing it has something to do with fine ki control, but there's no way to tell.

That's kind of DBZ in a nutshell though. It insists that Power Levels Are Bull****, and yet the one that wins is always the one with the bigger power - it's just that heroes generally start out with the smaller PL and get a new transformation or two to increase their PL. But I can't actually remember a time when tactics and smarts and skill won the day in DBZ against anyone important (I guess Ginyu getting tricked into a frog works?). Tactics are generally what happens to distract the baddie until Goku can get there and punch/beam him really hard. So if anything it'd just be falling back into old reliables.

It's why what Rater says makes perfect sense to me. I think to myself, what would be more boring, if the new thing was a specific skill with a power downgrade that needed to be used in specific ways against a more powerful opponent, or if it was just another stat increase and "breaking the limits" on power across the board like Super Saiyan was? Then that one is probably what it is.

[khadgar567]

for every ones notice: I am sorry to start this flash fire in this threat and i take full responsibility of the derailment of threat.

[Lemmy]

That's kind of DBZ in a nutshell though. It insists that Power Levels Are Bull****, and yet the one that wins is always the one with the bigger power - it's just that heroes generally start out with the smaller PL and get a new transformation or two to increase their PL. But I can't actually remember a time when tactics and smarts and skill won the day in DBZ against anyone important (I guess Ginyu getting tricked into a frog works?). Tactics are generally what happens to distract the baddie until Goku can get there and punch/beam him really hard. So if anything it'd just be falling back into old reliables.

It's why what Rater says makes perfect sense to me. I think to myself, what would be more boring, if the new thing was a specific skill with a power downgrade that needed to be used in specific ways against a more powerful opponent, or if it was just another stat increase and "breaking the limits" on power across the board like Super Saiyan was? Then that one is probably what it is.

To be fair, it never really says "Power levels are BS!" that's little more than a T4S joke that the fandom took too far. Power has always been a much bigger component than skill... BUT, again, to be fair, there's a lot of overlap between power and skill in DBZ. You get stronger not just by lifting weights, but by training martial arts... And becoming more powerful seemingly makes you more skilled as well. It's... Weird.

As for an instance of smarts and skill winning the day... The first fight against Vegeta gets pretty close. Even Yajirobe is incredibly important in that fight! It was the last time a weapon was actually relevant in the show (Trunks sword is just a prop to make him look cool, but was never necessary for anything he did). So does most of the Freeza arc, actually (including most of the fight against him, where the Z-warriors slowly realize they can't overpower him and have to try and distract him for a loooooooong time). And Cell only manages to reach his full power by evading, taunting and outsmarting his enemies...

And well... There's always Mr.Satan... Who saved Earth twice by just being charismatic... Plus that one time when he threw #16's head, but that didn't require any smarts, just a good throwing arm.