Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Rater202]

the only hard restrictions on what the Dragon Balls can and can't do is that if it's not possible for their creator to do it and that someone with a power greater than the Dragon's can't be affected against their consent--At the end ofthe Namek Saga, after determining that Goku was still alive, Porunga wasn't able to bring Goku to Earth becuase Goku refused to come back.

Other limitations seem to be manifestations of how the power is focused--Dende could create Dragon Balls that could resurrect large numbers of people, or grant three wishes, but could not do both. Even later(In the manga and apparently Super,) when the Balls were modified for three wishes, ressurecting multible people took two wishes.

so basically, in order to know what the normal Dragon Balls can't grant, we would have to have a comprehensive list of everything that someone with Dende's or Elder Mori's raw power would be capable of doing.

Also, in the Saiyan Saga Ooolong suggested using the Balls to just kill the Saiyans but Shenron said he couldn't do so. I don't remember if that was a "I can't kill anyone" thing or a "they'restronger than me" thing, but Porunga refuses to bring Goku to King Yemma's check in station(they thought he was dead) becuase he can't send the living to Otherworld without killing them and he can't kill.

Honestly, the only things that for sure couldn't be granted by the Normal Dragon Balls would be absolute immortality rendering one's self all powerful or utterly and absolutely invincible.

[Spamotron]

The Troubador came to the same conclusion. But I gather the point was to enable the credited character beat by finding something #17 could wish for that Shen Long couldn't grant - and while I am admittedly not the greatest Dragon Ball lore nerd, "turn ##17 and 18 into humans" was definitively something Shen Long could not do. Presumably Super Shen Long could.

Any other options out there?

While never outright confirmed its widely speculated that Gero wiped their pre-android memories of being Lapis and Lazuli (Their original Human names as stated by Toriyama in interviews). That could potentially be something to wish for that regular Shen Long plausibly couldn't grant.

[Lemmy]

Maybe restore/protect some of the extinct/endangered species from that island he protects?

[Xihirli]

So we saw our first "Hakai" in the dub. I really liked it. Can't wait for "Hakai" to become something our main characters casually punch through.

[chainer1216]

A new dragon ball anime was announced Dragon Ball Super Heroes or some such, it looks like the game "villains", Fuu and Android 21 will be playing major parts, as well as Future Trunks.

Edit: looked into it further and it sort of is and sort of isnt a new series, its not going to be broadcast on TV, but it will have a story arc over a number of episodes.

[Rater202]

A new dragon ball anime was announced Dragon Ball Super Heroes or some such, it looks like the game "villains", Fuu and Android 21 will be playing major parts, as well as Future Trunks.

...You need to cite this.

Becuase there's already a Video Game called Dragon Ball Heroes and the current bit is called "Super Dragon Ball Heros."

Granted, there has been talk about an anime adaption of Heroes, but...

[chainer1216]

I gave you the exact name, you couldnt google it youself? https://youtu.be/pbrZFSsuYj4 heres a video talking about it then.

[Rater202]

So yeah, it's an anime adaption of Dragon Ball Heroes: Universe Mission.

Not a sequel anime to Super.

[chainer1216]

Straying even further beyond the main series, as far as you can while staying on topic probably, MasakoX, the voice of Goku/Gohan in DBZ Abridged just put out the first chapter of his spin-off/what-if/fan manga Dragon Ball R&R and its quite good.
https://youtu.be/y_90NMf_ka0

Its follows his What If Raditz Turned Good? video series' timeline and focuses on the kids of the saiyans, Goten and Trunks but specifically Raunch, who is the daughter of Raditz and Launch. Its got a fully animated opening sequence and a full crew of voice actors.

[Devonix]

the only hard restrictions on what the Dragon Balls can and can't do is that if it's not possible for their creator to do it and that someone with a power greater than the Dragon's can't be affected against their consent--At the end ofthe Namek Saga, after determining that Goku was still alive, Porunga wasn't able to bring Goku to Earth becuase Goku refused to come back.

Other limitations seem to be manifestations of how the power is focused--Dende could create Dragon Balls that could resurrect large numbers of people, or grant three wishes, but could not do both. Even later(In the manga and apparently Super,) when the Balls were modified for three wishes, ressurecting multible people took two wishes.

so basically, in order to know what the normal Dragon Balls can't grant, we would have to have a comprehensive list of everything that someone with Dende's or Elder Mori's raw power would be capable of doing.

Also, in the Saiyan Saga Ooolong suggested using the Balls to just kill the Saiyans but Shenron said he couldn't do so. I don't remember if that was a "I can't kill anyone" thing or a "they'restronger than me" thing, but Porunga refuses to bring Goku to King Yemma's check in station(they thought he was dead) becuase he can't send the living to Otherworld without killing them and he can't kill.

Honestly, the only things that for sure couldn't be granted by the Normal Dragon Balls would be absolute immortality rendering one's self all powerful or utterly and absolutely invincible.

The whole not being able to kill someone more powerful never really made any sense. It's not as if the Dragon has to get into a fight with someone.
" I wish for you to kill the Saiyans. " Ok their spaceships blow up and they die out in space. Unless you're saying that the saiyan space capsules are more powerful than the dragon.

[deuterio12]

The whole not being able to kill someone more powerful never really made any sense. It's not as if the Dragon has to get into a fight with someone.
" I wish for you to kill the Saiyans. " Ok their spaceships blow up and they die out in space. Unless you're saying that the saiyan space capsules are more powerful than the dragon.

Well, they are moving much faster than the speed of light to reach the Earth in one year when the closest star to the sun is Alfa Centauri at 4.24 light years (and I'm pretty sure Vegeta wasn't at Alfa Centauri, in particular because he stops by another system in the way to Earth). That's some serious power.

[Xihirli]

They very well may have just been out of the Dragon's range until they were making their landing approach.

[Anteros]

They very well may have just been out of the Dragon's range until they were making their landing approach.

They've used wishes to literally build planets on the other side of the galaxy. I'm pretty sure destroying some space ships should be trivial. Dragonball just isn't a very consistent show is all.

[Rater202]

Nobody ever tried wishing for ships to blow up.

I mean, it's a wish. You've gotta be specific: See Porunga's response to "bring Piccolo to Namek" being to bring him to a random spot on the planet Namek.

Granted, since his training with King Kai consisted of spending a few days meditating in the high gravity, Piccolo pre-fusion was probably not meaningfully more powerful than he was when Nappa kicked his ass and killed him, so prior to absorbing Nale, Piccolo may well have been weaker than Krillin.

If he'd been taken straight to where they were, he'd have been the first to die to Frieza.

But Porunga couldn't have known that. I'm just providing context.

[Devonix]

Nobody ever tried wishing for ships to blow up.

I mean, it's a wish. You've gotta be specific: See Porunga's response to "bring Piccolo to Namek" being to bring him to a random spot on the planet Namek.

Granted, since his training with King Kai consisted of spending a few days meditating in the high gravity, Piccolo pre-fusion was probably not meaningfully more powerful than he was when Nappa kicked his ass and killed him, so prior to absorbing Nale, Piccolo may well have been weaker than Krillin.

If he'd been taken straight to where they were, he'd have been the first to die to Frieza.

But Porunga couldn't have known that. I'm just providing context.

The characters know about specifics about wishes. It's not like asking the dragon to do something he can't do wastes a wish. Ok Dragon says he can't kill the, because they're too powerful. Ok. I wish their ships malfunction. I wish they get an incurable disease. It's the problem of having literal wishes in a show where the characters are just not too bright.

The Dragon can make someone imortal and unkillable by anyone but can't do other simple things?

[Rater202]

The characters know about specifics about wishes. It's not like asking the dragon to do something he can't do wastes a wish. Ok Dragon says he can't kill the, because they're too powerful. Ok. I wish their ships malfunction. I wish they get an incurable disease. It's the problem of having literal wishes in a show where the characters are just not too bright.

The Dragon can make someone imortal and unkillable by anyone but can't do other simple things?

There was exactly one attempt at wishing someone dead in the series--Oolong attempting to Wish the Saiyan's dead when the balls had been gathered to bring Goku back.

Shenron, at the time, only granted one wish per summoning and this was a year to the day of Goku's death.

If they'd tried something more specific and it worked, Goku would have been perma dead.

[Xihirli]

They've used wishes to literally build planets on the other side of the galaxy. I'm pretty sure destroying some space ships should be trivial. Dragonball just isn't a very consistent show is all.

That was the other dragon.

[Anteros]

That was the other dragon.

Does it really matter other than as an excuse to be pedantic? The Earth dragon was able to resurrect everyone on Namek as well. It does not have a range restriction.

[The Troubadour]

The whole thing with Shenlong being unable to do something to someone stronger than him is clearly an afterthought anyway. The rejuvenated Piccolo Daimaoh was strong enough to kill him with a single energy blast (and not even a full-powered one), and yet Piccolo still thought Shenlong was able to do something to him (hence why he killed it in the first place). Well, to be fair, just because Piccolo thought so, doesn't mean it was true, but I figure he's in a better position than most to evaluate that.

[Rater202]

The whole thing with Shenlong being unable to do something to someone stronger than him is clearly an afterthought anyway. The rejuvenated Piccolo Daimaoh was strong enough to kill him with a single energy blast (and not even a full-powered one), and yet Piccolo still thought Shenlong was able to do something to him (hence why he killed it in the first place). Well, to be fair, just because Piccolo thought so, doesn't mean it was true, but I figure he's in a better position than most to evaluate that.

My understanding is that he didn't want the Dragon Balls to be used against him, but that doesn't necessitate that they could be used on him.

For example, Kami using the Dragon Balls to restore his own youth and thus becoming Piccolo Daimaou's equal(at least theoretically,) giving him a decent chance at killing his evil half(Kami is willing to die to take out Piccolo, but Piccolo wouldn't be willing to die to take out Kami, giving the Good Half a clear advantage.)

Or someone wishing for immortality and defeating him via attrition, or to transmute his food or drink during a feast in his honor into deadly poison.

Or resurrecting all of those martial artists that he had killed because they could potentially be threats to himself and have them all zerg-rush him.

Or summoning a warrior stronger than Piccolo.

Or teleporting a nuclear bomb set to blow upon being moved from it's location of construction directly under his bed when he's asleep and can't use his ki to protect himself from things that his body alone isn't able to withstand.

Honestly, there are plenty of reasons he might not want the Balls around that aren't dependant on his being personally vulnerable to them.

[Reddish Mage]

the only hard restrictions on what the Dragon Balls can and can't do is that if it's not possible for their creator to do it and that someone with a power greater than the Dragon's can't be affected against their consent

so basically, in order to know what the normal Dragon Balls can't grant, we would have to have a comprehensive list of everything that someone with Dende's or Elder Mori's raw power would be capable of doing.

Honestly, the only things that for sure couldn't be granted by the Normal Dragon Balls would be absolute immortality rendering one's self all powerful or utterly and absolutely invincible.

I don't recall the Dragon Balls being incapable of granting "absolute immortality." Supposedly Garlic Jr. had it granted a and no one said Vegeta or Frieza couldn't get their wish because the Balls were incapable of it.

The "power" of the creator doesn't tell us much. Can Kami, Dende or the Grand Elder bring people back to life on their own?

Also, it doesn't appear that the Dragon Balls can't affect powerful people without their consent. Most people, regardless of how powerful they are, are completely shocked at being resurrected. Goku becomes young at the outset of GT and clearly didn't consent.

GT also gives the rule that the Dragon Balls can only be used so many times in century but that's clearly not true post-Super.

There are other instances of the Dragon Balls not working: Shen Long says he can't turn back the androids into humans.

The way resurrection is limited is highly inconsistent. Shen Long says he can't bring back Freeza except in pieces, but that wasn't a problem for a lot of others that appeared disintegrated. Also when the rule was given that Shen Long can only resurrect someone dead for a year in original Dragon Ball, Bulma figured out a way around that by preserving the bodies in a cryochamber. Does that mean Shen Long could resurrect someone if they recreated a new body for them?

In the end, there are no coherent rules and they certainly don't count for all Dragon Balls, the Super Dragon Balls are explicilty said to have "no limit." All we have are instances of refusals and vague explanations for those instances.

[Rater202]

I don't recall the Dragon Balls being incapable of granting "absolute immortality." Supposedly Garlic Jr. had it granted a and no one said Vegeta or Frieza couldn't get their wish because the Balls were incapable of it.

I'm infering from the fact that it took the Super Dragon Balls for Zamasu to become utterly invulnerble to all forms of harm... Except being Hakai'd or Erased.

If not even the Super Dragon Balls can make you completly and utterly immortal so that nothing can kill you, then obviously the significantly weaker normal balls can't either.

Also, Garlic Junior only exists in a movie and a filler arc, neither of which actually fit into continuity.

The "power" of the creator doesn't tell us much. Can Kami, Dende or the Grand Elder bring people back to life on their own?

Unknown. However, we are explicitly told that the Dragon Balls are only capable of doing that which is within the power of their creator at the time of creation, so if Kami can't ressurect the dead on his own, it's at least theoretically possible that someone with his power level could learn or be tought how to.

Also, it doesn't appear that the Dragon Balls can't affect powerful people without their consent. Most people, regardless of how powerful they are, are completely shocked at being resurrected. Goku becomes young at the outset of GT and clearly didn't consent.

GT also gives the rule that the Dragon Balls can only be used so many times in century but that's clearly not true post-Super.

1: GT is a "gaiden/side-story" that has very little impact on other timelines and had little inflaunce from Toriyama. The fact that he refered to it as a side-story(using a word that can also mean apcorypha) means that of all official materials it's the least canonical.

That out of the way, if you watch early GT, the Black Star Dragon Balls(created when Piccolo and Kami were still one person) are stated to be able to grant any wish. (Which is presumably why they scatter galaxy wide and blow up the planet they'red used on, similarly to how ressurecting large masses of people is only possible with Dende's Dragon Balls if he uses two wishes instead of three)

There are other instances of the Dragon Balls not working: Shen Long says he can't turn back the androids into humans.

And we don't know why. Considering that the Androids are more accurately cyborgs, were born human, by word of Toriyama are mostly organic, and are capable of human emotions, eating, drinking, sleeping, and having huaman children, it's entirely possible that Shenron couldn't make them human becuase they're already human.

The way resurrection is limited is highly inconsistent. Shen Long says he can't bring back Freeza except in pieces, but that wasn't a problem for a lot of others that appeared disintegrated. Also when the rule was given that Shen Long can only resurrect someone dead for a year in original Dragon Ball, Bulma figured out a way around that by preserving the bodies in a cryochamber. Does that mean Shen Long could resurrect someone if they recreated a new body for them?

We don't know if preserving the bodies would have worked--Roshi, Krillin, and everyone else King Piccolo had killed were dead for less than a year--Kami reset the timer on the Ball's recharge when he recreated the dragon. Explcitly so. It was like, a few weeks tops.

As for Freiza, Freiza had been dead for over a year.

Shenron was basically explaining why he couldn't bring people back who'd been dead for more than a year--if he tries, they come back in whatever state they were in right before they died, which most of the time means they're going to die imediatly after being brought back.

That's not inconsistancy, that's clarification.

[Douglas]

I'm infering from the fact that it took the Super Dragon Balls for Zamasu to become utterly invulnerble to all forms of harm... Except being Hakai'd or Erased.

There is no proof that Zamasu needed the Super Dragon Balls for that wish, just that he chose to use them for it. He likely didn't even know that the normal Dragon Balls existed - he only knew about the Super ones because he saw them in the background on Gowasu's TV when watching the inter-universe tournament. Also, immortal Zamasu vs Hakai has not been established which would win - the Zamasu that Beerus destroyed had not yet made any wishes.

If not even the Super Dragon Balls can make you completly and utterly immortal so that nothing can kill you, then obviously the significantly weaker normal balls can't either.

The show makes a very explicit point through dialogue that Zamasu's immortality was partially compromised when he fused with Black, because Black was not immortal.

[Rater202]

There is no proof that Zamasu needed the Super Dragon Balls for that wish, just that he chose to use them for it. He likely didn't even know that the normal Dragon Balls existed - he only knew about the Super ones because he saw them in the background on Gowasu's TV when watching the inter-universe tournament. Also, immortal Zamasu vs Hakai has not been established which would win - the Zamasu that Beerus destroyed had not yet made any wishes.

The show makes a very explicit point through dialogue that Zamasu's immortality was partially compromised when he fused with Black, because Black was not immortal.

Considering that Zamasu survived total bodily destruction after being fused, I have to question whether the in-universe assertion that his immortality was flawed after fusing was 100% accurate. Especialy since he basically became the multiverse in the process.

In the Manga version of Super, Goku learned how to use Hakai and almost killed Zamasu with it. (Zamasu was able to cancel the technique before he was fully erased.)

This was merged Zamasu, but the manga version had a differant weakness than the anime.(Since he wasn't a true Supreme Kai, the fusion wasn't permanent)

[Mato]

The Dragon Ball Super movie this time will be the next story in the series currently airing on TV. It will be an episode after catching our breath from the climax of the Tournament of Power with the universe’s existence on the line; with content that will give a little better understanding about Freeza and the Saiyans, which I hadn’t properly depicted up till now; and leading to a mighty foe saved for the occasion, which I think has it shaping up to be a really enjoyable story.

As with 2013’s Battle of Gods and the last outing Resurrection “F”, I’ve written the story myself, and I’ve had the privilege of drawing lots of design illustrations as well. The fact is, while I’m just as busy as ever, as long as I’m not doing a serial, I have plenty of free time to think about the animated version, which I was completely hands-off about before. (laughs) So please look forward to it!

Now then, the animated version on TV will be ending for the time being, but the very popular Dragon Ball Super comic drawn by Toyotarō (on sale now up through volume 5!) will keep on going as-is. I think there will also be story developments different from the TV show and the movie, so please look forward to that as well. I will be, too!

— Akira Toriyama

Hahahahaha. Ha.

As I've said before, Toyotaro wrote Super. The "thumbs up" the previous interviews claimed Toriyama gave is already vanishing after Goku vs Jiren's terrible ratings in Japan and Toyataro's accusations of tracing. Now the story is Toriyama was totally not involved in any of it in order to protect his name for marketing reasons.

[Lord Raziere]

Hahahahaha. Ha.

As I've said before, Toyotaro wrote Super. The "thumbs up" the previous interviews claimed Toriyama gave is already vanishing after Goku vs Jiren's terrible ratings in Japan and Toyataro's accusations of tracing. Now the story is Toriyama was totally not involved in any of it in order to protect his name for marketing reasons.

Okay....?

I don't know what your trying to prove here, but it feels like your trying to hold up something as proof your right about something, but no one cares what that thing is or has forgotten about it entirely, I sure have. So whatever, I don't care. Especially since Toyotaro if he has written Super, clearly done a bad job of it, and thus won't be coming out ahead. its not as if I like Toyotaro's changes in the manga, after all.

[Rater202]

Dude... Toriyama was talking about the Original DBZ Anime when he said "I was completely hands-off about before," as he explains when he spoke about the Villain of the movie. He is in fact saying that he's very much involved in the animated version now.

Spoiler: Toriyama talking about the Villain of the upcoming movie, spoilers.

Show

"Everyone, are you familiar with Broly? He's an incredibly strong Saiyan who only appeared in the old anime movies, and I apparently at least drew the designs for him, but I had practically no involvement with the anime at the time, so I had totally forgotten about the story content. So, about Broly. I hear these days, he's still very popular not only in Japan, but also overseas. Based on that, my editor suggested we have Broly appear in this next movie. I went ahead and watched the movies from back then, and I felt this could be quite interesting once I rearrange some things. I got right to work trying my hand at a story that incorporates him into the Dragon Ball Super series. While keeping in mind Broly's classic image so as not to disappoint his fans, I updated him and added a new side to his character, and I think this has resulted in a more fascinating Broly. Naturally you’ll get to see fierce combat, but also, the paths of destiny that lead to an encounter between Goku, Vegeta, and Broly. It also involves the Frieza Force and the history of the Saiyans, which end up having a major connection to everything. The story content turns out to be very large-scale and dramatic. Here comes that almighty Saiyan, Broly! I'm also including lots of other content all you fans will enjoy, so look forward to it, and be patient a while longer for it all to come together!!"

The bolded sgment is what he mens when he says he wasn't invovled in the animation before now.

You're cherry picking and have proven absolutely nothing about whether or not Super is canon or more "official" than GT.

@Raz: Mato is rather upset that GT is no longer considered the official continuation of the main Dragon Ball timeline and has been alternativly been claiming that Toriyama had just as much if not more invovlment with GT as he did Super and that they're both euqually canon or that Super will somehow lead to GT despite Super contradicting most of the events of GT.

At one point he claimed that Gt wans't a Side story becuase the cnote that Rotiyama wrote on a GT Box set calling it a Side Story used the characters for "Gaiden" instead of "Suaido Sutorii" or however you say Side Story in Romanji.

Now he's taking a comment where Toriyama says that he's now more invovled with the naimation than he was in the past(IE, the original animes) and twisting it to say that he had nothing to do wih Super's Animation until now.

For the record, the only thing in GT that hasn't been either contradicted or rendered irrelvant by Super is the existance of Baby and the Machine Mutants, and that's only becuase the Tournement of Power made the Tuffles canon instead of just anime and movie only concepts.

They can't be the same continuity, but that doesn't mean that an alternate and hopefully better written version of Baby can't show up in the Super Timeline.

[Lord Raziere]

oh right thats his deal, whatever. honestly I don't care for the weird people that somehow think GT is good. for every problem Super's got, GT has like two or three more.

[Mato]

I don't know what your trying to prove here

My running point that Toyotaro was behind Super.

Mato is rather upset that GT is no longer considered the official continuation of the main Dragon Ball timeline.

If anything, I'm perturbed that even after five years of reminders you still haven't realized everything Super has done takes place before the last chapter of Dragonball's manga. And how you dual claim Super overwrites both Dragonball Z and GT.

But I mean, you tell your self whatever you want. In a few more years who knows. Maybe people will be telling you Super isn't canon and claiming you DB:Legends, which takes place before the Buu Saga, totally replaces all of it.

[Rater202]

I am aware that super Takes Place before the End of Z. I also never said it invalidated anything from Z

I am also aware that Goku being able to go Super Saiyan Blue at Will invalidates the Need for Super Saiyan Four as Blue is either stronger than Four or Equally powerful depending on what Xeno Goku's Power LEvel is compared to Main Goku, and both Goku and Vegeta have forms more powerful than Blue.

In addition, the events of GT was set off by Pilaf and crew, at incredibly advanced age, managing to get into the Look Out to Aquire the Black Star Dragon Balls and wish for world domination. The fact that Pilaf and are accidentally wished themselves into being small children means they won't be elderly by that point in time and by all means, they seem to have given up on being evil so they wouldn't be after World Domination anymore.

I also know that the Dragon Balls have been used several times in Super, once being gathered up as a literal Bingo Prize, with no comment from Dende that overusing them could be dangerous. We have passed by the number of times that using the Dragon Balls completely fills them with NEgative Energy by GT's logic, as the Shadow Dragon Arc is unlikely to happen.

We have seen what Hell Looks like in canon. It seems that everyone has their own personal Hell and that Hells are organized by where in the universe you died--Not only is Frieza the only dead soul in that part of Hell, but it's explicitly stated that he's in Earth's Hell. This means that the Super 17 Arc can't happen becuase Doctor Gero and doctor Mu would have been a galaxy's worth of Hell away from each other in their own individual isolated tortures and thus wouldn't have met, let alone been able to build a Machine Mutant Clone of 17 without being caught.

Baby and the Machine Mutants can theoretically still exist in this timeline, but without the Pilaf Gang starting the hunt for the Black Star Dragon Balls(Which may or may not exist in this timeline,) there would be no chance for our heroes to encounter them.

More Minorly, Kibitoshin still exists in GT but he wished to be sperated back into Shin and Kibito in Super.

Just becuase GT takes s place after the End of Z and Super before it, that doesn't mean that the stuff in Super that contradicts stuff in GT doesn't matter. It's basically impossible for GT as you know it to exist in the same timeline as the events of Super.

Besides, Super has hinted, with comments about Pan being Satan's here and the existence of Tien's Dojo, to be heading towards the events of Dragon Ball Online, which ignored GT entirely.

And finally: Why are you so attached to a confirmed side story where Pan is useless when the current canon that is that Pan is a prodigy in Ki use who can fly on instinct before she can even crawl?