Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Lord Raziere]

well there was Future Trunks going super saiyan as really dramatic after Future Gohan's death, but Future Trunks is like, the timeline where Toriyama decides all the comedy just died and left behind a world of grim apocalyptic terror where only a single hero is there to stand for the world's hope and survival. because lets be real: thats basically what Dragon Ball becomes when you take the comedic element away.

all other power ups are just like "yeah, your powerful now go be badass" because I don't think Toriyama really cares about power ups having weight unto themselves. like I get the impression, that Toriyama made those power up dramatic not because of the power ups themselves, but because of the circumstances surrounding them. Goku achieving the form wasn't dramatic because he had achieved it, but because for the second time in his life he tapped into his righteous fury to avenge Krillin's death. Gohan tapped into SS2 because Cell had absolutely zero respect for life and killed 16.

like, Goku's first transformation wasn't great because he achieved it at all, it was great because rediscovered something lost, and like all things it gets outdated, because its like being the first guy to discover electricity: sure, you discovered electricity, but the guy who discovers how to make electricity useful to a lot of people? even greater. Goku is honestly lucky that he has achieved so many other transformations in his life time, or he'd fall behind.

[Starwulf]

well there was Future Trunks going super saiyan as really dramatic after Future Gohan's death, but Future Trunks is like, the timeline where Toriyama decides all the comedy just died and left behind a world of grim apocalyptic terror where only a single hero is there to stand for the world's hope and survival. because lets be real: thats basically what Dragon Ball becomes when you take the comedic element away.

Ya know, that would be an amazing spin-off series. Chronicling the life of Future Trunks, from the moment the Androids attacked, all the way up to the point where they fight Goku Black and whatshisname. As long as it remained grim-dark pretty much the entire time, it could be an excellent counter point to the regular series(I know that's not the phrase I'm looking for, but my mind is really blanking atm).

[Lord Raziere]

Ya know, that would be an amazing spin-off series. Chronicling the life of Future Trunks, from the moment the Androids attacked, all the way up to the point where they fight Goku Black and whatshisname. As long as it remained grim-dark pretty much the entire time, it could be an excellent counter point to the regular series(I know that's not the phrase I'm looking for, but my mind is really blanking atm).

Dragon Ball: Genocide Route

But seriously yeah that would be awesome. But why stop at Zamasu? just keep going and torture Future Trunks with as many enemies as you possibly can, oh and make them far smarter than anything Goku faces just be extra evil.

[Rakaydos]

Dragon Ball: Genocide Route

But seriously yeah that would be awesome. But why stop at Zamasu? just keep going and torture Future Trunks with as many enemies as you possibly can, oh and make them far smarter than anything Goku faces just be extra evil.

By the time he faces Zamatsu, he's already dealt with the Bu situation offscreen, according to super.

[Lord Raziere]

By the time he faces Zamatsu, he's already dealt with the Bu situation offscreen, according to super.

Exactly. if we stop at Zamasu, it just be Android saga all over again, him basically killing Babidi and Dabura before Buu can ever get going then Zamasu then nothing, because those would be two arcs that would already be in Z and Super. you need more villains than those, otherwise its a just two recaps and giving a boring middle arc.

[Xihirli]

Who would ever start a series with two recaps?

[Lord Raziere]

Who would ever start a series with two recaps?

Who indeed.

Who indeed.

*slow mo*: WHOOOOOOOO INDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED.

#TotallyNotGlaringAtToei

[Rater202]

Re:17

First: How 17 could have gotten so strong.

1. 17 has, like Freeza, never trained a day in his life. "Roughly equal to Kami infused Piccolo" is 17's base state, which means he's gonna get hella results from extreme enough training.
2. 17 spends most of his time away from his family patrolling a national park on an island in the middle of nowhere and is apparently the only sapient on the island. When he's not fighting off poachers or taking care of animals, he's basically got nothing to do.
3. He never runs out of energy or gets tired. Strictly speaking, he never has to sleep if he doesn't want to(going by databooks, he doesn't even have to eat as long as he keeps hydrated.)

Thus, he has potentially a lot of time to train and can get huge benefits from it.

Second: Why he might have gotten so strong.

1. 17, back in the Android Saga, was very big on the idea that he was "the best." He was the strongest... up until Cell proved how wrong he was in that and overpowered him twice. IT would make sense for him to have a desire to grow stronger after that.
2. 17 is a park ranger. He has something that it is his job to protect. While this might not seem like much at the time, see below.
3. 17 has a family, something that he probably wants to protect.
4. While 17 seems more than capable of fighting off poachers so far, 17 is living proof that a guy stronger than anything you've ever dealt with before can come out of nowhere to ruin your day and has been on the receiving end of that before as well.
5. Furthermore, 17 is living proof that a mad genius can create an engine for destruction capable of wrecking everyone's stuff for some insane or petty reason, and well, "kill the guy stopping people from capturing the ridiculously valuable endagered animals" is a much more common super-villain motivation than "take revenge on this one guy who, technically speaking, has never actually drectly wronged me as he's not the one who killed my son and my son's death could accurately be laid at the feet of the general who throws his men's lives away selfishly."
6. When Cell overpowered 17 the second time, when he actually absorbed him, he snuck up on 17 and took him by surprise. Even if the poachers are weaker than he is, 17 can't sense energy(or at least he couldn't in the Android Saga.) The stronger he gets, the faster he can fight off a group of poachers, the less time any sneaky poachers have to sneak past him and get the animals.

Thus, he has legit reasons to make himself even stronger than he already was.

I've got no problem with 17 having gotten within spitting distance of Goku's max power since it makes perfect sense to me.

Re: Back Tingles. We have been showing off how badass characters in Dragon Ball are by having them learn or flatout copy other people's techniques with little to no effort for as long as there's been Dragon Ball--Most iconic would be the fact that Master Roshi never tought any of his students any of his techniques(Discounting Goku learning Mafuba in super. In OG Dragon Ball, Roshi basically taought them how to train themselves and how to turn chores into training, which is good, but still.). Goku copied the Kamehameha after seeing it once(and later made a stronger version of it and a dozen or so variations), Krillin and Yamcha both independently recreated it without Roshi's knowledge(and Roshi freaked out about them not being ready to do it until they pulled it off,) and Tien either copied it on sight or independently recreated it without ever having seen it prior to ever being Roshi's student just to prove a point that his rival school's Dodonpa was superior to the Kamehameha.

Understated but even more impressive if you think about it is Vegeta, between the Saiyan Saga and Namek, either teaching himself how to sense energy or just spontaneously developing the ability after, basically, finding out that it's possible.

The point of Goten and Trunks is that they have the potential to far surpass Goku and Vegeta(which is why Goku taught them fusion and tried to make them his successors as the Earth's protectors.) So them unlocking Super Saiyan with absolutely no effort before they could fly or shoot energy blasts and treating it like a kiddy game was, again, to show how huge a pair of badass in potentia they were.

A Saiyan who is already ridiculously strong having an easy time figuring out Super Saiyan after seeing it and having what it feels like explained to her isn't that much of a stretch in comparison to those above feets--Especially since Califluer and Kale are basically Female AU versions of Goku and Broly.

Honestly, this honestly feels like people who just don't like super picking something to jump on and bitch about without stopping to think that they've never complained about the exact same thing before. I'm sure that it's more nuanced than that, but that's what it feels like.

[Starwulf]

Honestly, this honestly feels like people who just don't like super picking something to jump on and bitch about without stopping to think that they've never complained about the exact same thing before. I'm sure that it's more nuanced than that, but that's what it feels like.

Considering I'm constantly going on and on about how much I enjoyed this episode or that, I can safely say you've missed the mark by a wide margin in trying to apply that rationalization to me ^^. I love Super, and pretty much everything about it. Hell, I've loved it so much, that I've subjected myself to the subbed version of it just so I can keep up with the current action rather than relying on the dubbed version, and I can't stand subbed anime, I avoid it as much as possible. That's how much I love Super :). I just don't like Caulifla. Back tingles and all :).

[Rater202]

Considering I'm constantly going on and on about how much I enjoyed this episode or that, I can safely say you've missed the mark by a wide margin in trying to apply that rationalization to me ^^. I love Super, and pretty much everything about it. Hell, I've loved it so much, that I've subjected myself to the subbed version of it just so I can keep up with the current action rather than relying on the dubbed version, and I can't stand subbed anime, I avoid it as much as possible. That's how much I love Super :). I just don't like Caulifla. Back tingles and all :).

I was refering to people complaining about califluer getting SSJ so easily in general.

[Dragonus45]

Honestly, this honestly feels like people who just don't like super picking something to jump on and bitch about without stopping to think that they've never complained about the exact same thing before. I'm sure that it's more nuanced than that, but that's what it feels like.

I adore super so your kinda off base there.

[Quiver]

Okay, I thought about this while I was working, and I think have a better way to sum up my feelings.

There are two types of super saiyan transformations in Dragonball; there are the one's which act as a climax to a storyline, and there are the one's that are just a step in the storyline.

Goku and Future!Trunks are good examples of the first type. The entire arc on Namek was about Freiza's fear of dying, and his fear of the super saiyan. Goku transforming, in the height of emotion, with thunder and lightning and a shattered sky to summon in the end of a Galactic Tyrant... that is, very empatheticly, the end of that storyline. Goku vs Freiza on a dying planet is the climax of Goku and Freiza's storylines up to that point.
Simialrly, the History of Trunks special is all about Gohan trying to get Trunks to transform into a super saiyan. The ending is tragic because... well, Trunks finally manages to transform. He succeeds in achieving the goal they had been aiming for, in the worst possible way.

Goten and Trunks are examples of the second one... but so are Vegeta and Gohan. Vegeta I already talked about; he just showed up one day, and turned into a super saiyan, bro. 'Cause pride and Kakarot and whatever.
Gohan though... it's kind of worth noting Gohan's super saiyan transformation? There is a bit of drama to it -certainly more than Goten, Trunks, Caulifla and Kale's first transformations had- but it's still nowhere near as momentous and important as Goku or Trunks' were. But that's because turning into a super saiyan isn't the climax of his storyline; that comes later, when he turns into a super saiyan 2 against Cell, and that's when we get the awesome music and sense of accomplishment and fulfillment.

I feel like Caulifla and Kale fall into the second one, where super saiyan isn't that big a deal, and it's just a stepping stone for the rest of their storyline, wherever that ends up taking them.

(For the record, I don't think their story is leading to them becoming Super saiyan three, God, Blue, GodBlueGodBerserkerBlue or whatever. I lean towards the 'Caulifla is going to be Goku's Cabba' theory, so her getting these transformations is more about bringing her to Goku's attention so he'll interact with her going forward)

[HolyDraconus]

I honestly hoped for a while there that they wouldn't ax the ladies so soon. While boring, they DID have more personality than Jiren. with less than 20 min to go, I have no doubt that Jiren can speed blitz whoever is left in 5 min if his universe is about to lose. Sooo.. yeah

[L Space]

Regardless of Android 17's power up (which doesn't bother/makes sense to me) he's had two of the funniest moments for me in Super:

1. Casually blasting the 'Warriors of Love' during their transformation. "They were wide open. Is there a problem?"

2. Completely hamming it up with his evil impersonation while fighting Ribrianne.

[Sniccups]

I think that Caulifla's transformation actually sort of works. Cabba, the most logical and calm Saiyan in the series, needed anger to transform the first time. Caulifla is by far the most hot-headed and ...well... traditionally Saiyan-ish of the U6 Saiyans, but she doesn't need it. It's a cool gimmick, which is enough for me because, well, it's Dragon Ball. We shouldn't really be expecting that much more, considering Toriyama's style for a lot of the original series.

Also, I'm just happy that we get 17 back, and that the humans are finally reasonably competent fighters again.

Edit: I'm watching some of the start of the tournament (episodes 96 and onward) and I keep being frustrated by how little Goku uses his Super Saiyan forms. He could beat most of the fighters much more easily as even a regular Super Saiyan, but he barely uses even that.

[Yuki Akuma]

Edit: I'm watching some of the start of the tournament (episodes 96 and onward) and I keep being frustrated by how little Goku uses his Super Saiyan forms. He could beat most of the fighters much more easily as even a regular Super Saiyan, but he barely uses even that.

He's pacing himself. Super Saiyan takes a bunch of stamina to maintain - even though he's mastered it, fighting as a Super Saiyan is still more tiring than fighting in his base form. The tournament is half an hour long!

[jindra34]

Spoiler: Episode 117

Show

So about 2 things happened in this episode: Universe 2 got reduced to chumps you can't take an exhausted Goku, and Ribrianne showed that she is completely unable to understand love when she encounters it instead of LOVE. Oh and another giant form that has been useless since the start of Z.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Episode 117

Show

So. The Androids Vs. U2. .....U2 getting beaten then? cause them Androids are from one of the darkest most serious arcs ever, and they've already proven to still be pragmatic fighters who were kicking their asses earlier so.....probably not getting beaten, not something like U2...

you two stupid U6 Namekians.....sigh......your going to lose eventually. your not even important enough to be introduced earlier and with how little members youh ave, your going to lose even if you both survive at the end of the tournament. the only way your winning is if there is only one other team in the tournament and they have on member, or if there is NO other teams at all. and your guys? are no Jiren.

aaaaaaand Vegeta is currently trying to replicate Ultra Instinct with pushup, situps and plenty of juice getting beat up by a bad joke because he won't fight normally. sigh. whelp, there goes his saiyan pride again.

all five remaining members have converged upon Goku. WHAT NO! U2! THE LAST TIME PEOPLE TRIED TO TEAM UP LIKE THIS TO TAKE OUT SOMEONE.......WAS HALF OF U11.......VERSUS CAULIFLA AND KALE....

and the androids arrive in time to save him. you guys are screwed.

Yeeeaaaaah.......Goku's not losing to these three randos. that just won't happen.

*looks at Ribrianne insult Krillin to 18's face*
*gets out of the room immediately*

and Rozie got owned. yup. this is turning out exactly how I expected it.

ok, Ribrianne. whats your big ace up your sleeve? cause your going to need it.

......its Ribrianne but even bigger. and with thes butterfly wings. ok.

OK, THIS IS AWESOME. YES. ALL OF THIS. FOREVER. GO 18!

ONE PUNCH ANDROID!!!!!!!

ok, apparently 18 will kill you if you actually state the reason they won outright, we all know it was 18's love for her family.

Tournament Status:
U7: 7/10
U3: 6/10
U2: 3/10
U4: 3/10
U11: 3/10
U6: 2/10
U10: Erased.
U9: Erased.
Total: 24 fighters remaining.

Oooooooooh.....so lets seeee..........U7 and U3 are now the definite leads. U2, U4 and U11 are all tied. U6 is hanging by a thread.

The Leads:
U7 and U3 seem to be keeping themselves apart and playing it smart and efficient. which explains both of their long term success.

The Ties:
It seems more and more likely that U11 is just waiting for the others to get knocked out and then take care of the remains.

The Thread:
U2 well.....lets get to the preview shall we?

Oh my. "accelerated tragedy. vanishing universes" and its focusing on the U6 namekians and last three U2's. Yup, U2 and U6 are being erased next episode. looks like the ones surviving after that will be U7, U4, U3, and U11.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: Episode 117

Show

So. The Androids Vs. U2. .....U2 getting beaten then? cause them Androids are from one of the darkest most serious arcs ever, and they've already proven to still be pragmatic fighters who were kicking their asses earlier so.....probably not getting beaten, not something like U2...

you two stupid U6 Namekians.....sigh......your going to lose eventually. your not even important enough to be introduced earlier and with how little members youh ave, your going to lose even if you both survive at the end of the tournament. the only way your winning is if there is only one other team in the tournament and they have on member, or if there is NO other teams at all. and your guys? are no Jiren.

aaaaaaand Vegeta is currently trying to replicate Ultra Instinct with pushup, situps and plenty of juice getting beat up by a bad joke because he won't fight normally. sigh. whelp, there goes his saiyan pride again.

all five remaining members have converged upon Goku. WHAT NO! U2! THE LAST TIME PEOPLE TRIED TO TEAM UP LIKE THIS TO TAKE OUT SOMEONE.......WAS HALF OF U11.......VERSUS CAULIFLA AND KALE....

and the androids arrive in time to save him. you guys are screwed.

Yeeeaaaaah.......Goku's not losing to these three randos. that just won't happen.

*looks at Ribrianne insult Krillin to 18's face*
*gets out of the room immediately*

and Rozie got owned. yup. this is turning out exactly how I expected it.

ok, Ribrianne. whats your big ace up your sleeve? cause your going to need it.

......its Ribrianne but even bigger. and with thes butterfly wings. ok.

OK, THIS IS AWESOME. YES. ALL OF THIS. FOREVER. GO 18!

ONE PUNCH ANDROID!!!!!!!

ok, apparently 18 will kill you if you actually state the reason they won outright, we all know it was 18's love for her family.

Tournament Status:
U7: 7/10
U3: 6/10
U2: 3/10
U4: 3/10
U11: 3/10
U6: 2/10
U10: Erased.
U9: Erased.
Total: 24 fighters remaining.

Oooooooooh.....so lets seeee..........U7 and U3 are now the definite leads. U2, U4 and U11 are all tied. U6 is hanging by a thread.

The Leads:
U7 and U3 seem to be keeping themselves apart and playing it smart and efficient. which explains both of their long term success.

The Ties:
It seems more and more likely that U11 is just waiting for the others to get knocked out and then take care of the remains.

The Thread:
U2 well.....lets get to the preview shall we?

Oh my. "accelerated tragedy. vanishing universes" and its focusing on the U6 namekians and last three U2's. Yup, U2 and U6 are being erased next episode. looks like the ones surviving after that will be U7, U4, U3, and U11.

Spoiler: look closer

Show

i dont think u6 is going out next episode for a few reasons, one of which is that in the previews it looked like Piccolo took another one for Gohan. Most likely, u7 losing their Namekian and a different universe with a non god tiered threat gets blitzed. U2 leaving is obvious so i dont believe it. Vegeta gaining UI would be epic though. The guy's a tactical genius, and is always outshown by the prodigy, and unlike Gohan, I'm certain he would use the powerup to great effect

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: look closer

Show

i dont think u6 is going out next episode for a few reasons, one of which is that in the previews it looked like Piccolo took another one for Gohan. Most likely, u7 losing their Namekian and a different universe with a non god tiered threat gets blitzed. U2 leaving is obvious so i dont believe it. Vegeta gaining UI would be epic though. The guy's a tactical genius, and is always outshown by the prodigy, and unlike Gohan, I'm certain he would use the powerup to great effect

Spoiler: Who are you trying to kid?

Show

all the big hitters of U2 and U6 are out. they're done. Dead universes walking. The reason U4 and U3 are still in are because U3 is smart enough to conserve resources for the final moments, U4 still has those two invisible threats to pull out to do whatever upset they think tip things in their favor, and U11 has Jiren. U2 and U6 only have scrubs who won't make it and even if they survived to the end of the tournament, they too few numbers to win. unless someone takes out U7 within 15 minutes, everyone who is not U7 is going to be erased no matter what.

So......why drag it out? we've seen this pattern before with U10 and U9, they either expended themselves too much too early or didn't focus at all and got erased slowly. For U6 and U2, we basically saw both of those universes trump cards get played: Kefla and giant Ribrianne. and neither of them worked.

I think I see the patterns: First two: U9 and U10. Second two to go: U2 and U6. Third two to go: U3 and U4. Last ones fighting will be U7 and U11.

they're not going to extend these universes false hope beyond 118. Namekians having infinite regeneration doesn't matter when your lose condition is getting knocked of the ring, and Goku getting attacked by a black hole, oh noes its not as if he didn't already survive THAT and get a power up from surviving one! face it better fighters have tried to take out Goku, Kefla tried, its not going to happen. Maybe Piccolo will fall out defeating the U6 Namekians, but ultimately, U6 and U2 won't be around for much longer all the warning signs are there and any subversion would just be pointless and delaying the inevitable. once all the Universes cards are played out......they're gone.

[Present 2.0]

Spoiler

Show

Yeah, I know, Powerlevels are bull, but what was this. Is C18 now God Tier.

Okay, one possible Explanation would be, that Ribrianne lost a lot of Energy during the Tournament and C18 didn't and that is why she was able to keep up with her.

[ben-zayb]

Haven't really kept up with DBS, but in the very unlikely chance that something caused everyone else to get ringed out except for Piccolo and one of the other namekians, what happens if they fused?

[Starwulf]

Spoiler: Eps 117

Show

Well, glad Ribrianne got taken out. The whole time she goes on and on and on about love, and how wonderful it is, and how she wants to spread it to all corners of all the universes, but the moment she comes across true love, she decries it as being ugly and evil and tainting real love. Yeah, screw that, so glad 18 beat the crap out of her.

Speaking of 18, did she just gain a significant power-up? Did she manage to shatter the same barrier that 17 clearly did off-screen sometime between end of cell arc and now? It certainly seems that way. I mean, I wouldn't put her on 17's level just yet, she may have gained power, but he's been in constant training defending his island of misfit toys animals, so he's likely refined and pushed his power to the max.

I'm with Lord Raziere on this one, U2 and U6 are both gone after this episode. Those 3 nobodies are going to be taken out by Goku(or someone surprise attacking them and knocking them out of the ring) and those Namekians are going to be knocked out, probably by Gohan after Piccolo takes another hit for him that results in his own ring out, and Gohan realizes he was still holding back the entire time blah blah blah we've seen this before.

Currently rooting for Vegeta to somehow achieve Ultra Instinct before the big showdown with Jiren, and him and Goku remember the words that Whis told them back in their initial training under him "If you two team up, there is likely nothing in the universe that could stand against you", and then they'll utterly decimate Jiren, who might be able to keep up with UI Saiyan, but against two will fall like everyone else.

Spoiler: Your post in spoilers

Show

Yeah, I know, Powerlevels are bull, but what was this. Is C18 now God Tier.

Okay, one possible Explanation would be, that Ribrianne lost a lot of Energy during the Tournament and C18 didn't and that is why she was able to keep up with her.

The episode literally just aired a few hours ago, please put that into spoilers for the people who haven't seen the episode yet. Thank you :).

[khadgar567]

okay this might be bad idea but i thing there is a good chance zen- o gonna start duking out first between each other as playing then ( we all kinda now the rest( and thanks to universe 2 its looking bad) we have buu saga all again but this time zen-o as buu and we all kinda know how hard defeating buu so we might need bulma to start grabbing plenatery dragon balls right now

[Future Sword]

I wonder if Gogeta might finally make an appearance, toward the end of this Tournament. Probably not, but it'd be neat.

[khadgar567]

I wonder if Gogeta might finally make an appearance, toward the end of this Tournament. Probably not, but it'd be neat.

I dont think so ultra instinct cutting realy close to super saiyan 4 and until vegeta swallows his arrogant pride there is not a good chance gogeta or the vegito in this arc but may be next one were they need to stop zen-o sama from going tyrant and erasing all universes.

[Mikeavelli]

Spoiler: Episode 117

Show

So about 2 things happened in this episode: Universe 2 got reduced to chumps you can't take an exhausted Goku, and Ribrianne showed that she is completely unable to understand love when she encounters it instead of LOVE. Oh and another giant form that has been useless since the start of Z.

Spoiler

Show

To be fair, it was pretty clear she didn't understand love from her introduction where she straight up murders people for being a bit rude to her. Being defeated by true love and finally realizing she has a bit to learn about it is really just wrapping up her character arc.

[Sniccups]

First, I'm pretty sure that Zen'o can delete anything, and thus any fight against him would result in his opponent getting deleted. Think about what he did to every single person in the future timeline, including people that presumably existed there like Jiren or Grand Priest.

However...
Do you think that Zen'o is can overrule Super Shenron? Could Super Shenron destroy Zen'o, or bring back some universes?

[zimmerwald1915]

Spoiler: Speculation about Episode 118

Show

Just spitballing, but might Namekian fusion be the tool that U6 uses to take out Piccolo? It's a second-time-as-farce repeat of the Kefla gambit, to be sure, but these guys don't seem smart enough to realize that (Confronting other fighters when you're down to two? What are you thinking?) and having Gohan revenge-ringout the fused U6 Namekian would be an efficient way to tie up their universe, narratively-speaking.

[JadedDM]

Favorite line:

Spoiler

Show

"He doesn't even have a nose!"

Also, don't piss off 18. Just...don't. Not even you, Shin.