Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[chainer1216]

Spoiler: Speculation about Episode 118

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Just spitballing, but might Namekian fusion be the tool that U6 uses to take out Piccolo? It's a second-time-as-farce repeat of the Kefla gambit, to be sure, but these guys don't seem smart enough to realize that (Confronting other fighters when you're down to two? What are you thinking?) and having Gohan revenge-ringout the fused U6 Namekian would be an efficient way to tie up their universe, narratively-speaking.

Well from kami/king piccolo history we know that not only can Namekians fuse but split, what if their plan involves fusing to get the extra power and then split at the end.

From the preview we see a scene with a bunch of shadowy Namekians, im guessing that means that these two are made up of multiple fused Namekians. What if the plan is to wait until the end and then split into a bunch of Namekians. The Zen-Os have been extremely. Lenient with rule stretching like that so far.

[Dragonus45]

Well from kami/king piccolo history we know that not only can Namekians fuse but split, what if their plan involves fusing to get the extra power and then split at the end.

From the preview we see a scene with a bunch of shadowy Namekians, im guessing that means that these two are made up of multiple fused Namekians. What if the plan is to wait until the end and then split into a bunch of Namekians. The Zen-Os have been extremely. Lenient with rule stretching like that so far.

That would be a brilliant plan, but it would probably work better if they went more for keep away and less for lets go fight these guys.

[Xihirli]

Also, the only event we know of in which a Namekian divided himself was when Nameless divided his evil and good half in order to become the kami. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know how. It might have been something that required items that are hard to get, or maybe it wasn't a Namekian thing but something Popo can do to anyone if they want to become kami.
We've also seen King Piccolo just... birth offspring at will. Do we know how long that takes? If it's less than 48 minutes maybe the Namekians were just leaving eggs everywhere in all those episodes when we couldn't see them.
I don't think that's actually what happened.

[Rater202]

Also, Piccolo explicitly stated that he couldn't split back into Piccolo and Kami again.

King Piccolo wasn't a normal thing--He was literally a demon born of Kami's expelled Evil and negativity.

So I don't think "fuse/defuse later" is a plan that would be considered.

[Lord Raziere]

That would be a brilliant plan, but it would probably work better if they went more for keep away and less for lets go fight these guys.

While I'd like their plan to be "split so that there is enough namekians to out populate everyone else and win the tournament by sheer numbers" so that Zen'O disqualifies them for being "boring" to prove how much of a farce this really is.....

....I doubt thats going to happen for some reason. It would be a good way for them to exit the tournament rather than the usual fighting thing, but a common theme in U6 fighters is that they're basically U7 fighters with less experience and lot of overconfidence. Frost and Caulifla are basically less experienced versions of Freeza and Goku and vastly overestimated their abilities to handle their own counterpart. even the U6 namekians are confident they can somehow win despite having only two members left.

[Starwulf]

I wonder if now that U6 has it's own earth(well, has had for a while now I guess), if their universe will eventually have to deal with Buu. It seems pretty clear that they didn't, else the majority of their fighters would probably be dead, with the exception of Hit. Maybe Caulifla/Kale/Cabba if they managed to go SSJ2, but I honestly doubt it, I imagine Buu would have beat them before they managed to realize how serious of a threat he was. Maybe if Kale went LSSJ I guess, after seeing Caulifla get beat down in SSJ2 mode and either killed or absorbed(though, if she was absorbed, I doubt even LSSJ would have been able to beat Buu at that point).

Sorry for being OT, it's just something that's been bouncing around in my head for a while now since Beerus used his wish on the Super Dragon Balls to bring back Earth, and we were told that U6/U7 are sister/brother/twin/whatever universes, and they have so many similarities elsewhere, that it stands to reason that there was a Buu in their universe as well at some point, and he probably ended up on their Earth as well. Would be a hilarious mini-arc after the tournament, U6 peeps go back to their universe only to find Buu out and about rampaging, and they toy around with him a bit before obliterating him.

[Lord Raziere]

I wonder if now that U6 has it's own earth(well, has had for a while now I guess), if their universe will eventually have to deal with Buu. It seems pretty clear that they didn't, else the majority of their fighters would probably be dead, with the exception of Hit. Maybe Caulifla/Kale/Cabba if they managed to go SSJ2, but I honestly doubt it, I imagine Buu would have beat them before they managed to realize how serious of a threat he was. Maybe if Kale went LSSJ I guess, after seeing Caulifla get beat down in SSJ2 mode and either killed or absorbed(though, if she was absorbed, I doubt even LSSJ would have been able to beat Buu at that point).

Sorry for being OT, it's just something that's been bouncing around in my head for a while now since Beerus used his wish on the Super Dragon Balls to bring back Earth, and we were told that U6/U7 are sister/brother/twin/whatever universes, and they have so many similarities elsewhere, that it stands to reason that there was a Buu in their universe as well at some point, and he probably ended up on their Earth as well. Would be a hilarious mini-arc after the tournament, U6 peeps go back to their universe only to find Buu out and about rampaging, and they toy around with him a bit before obliterating him.

problem with that:

Botamo might already BE the Majin Buu of his universe. He is fat, he has a hax defense that makes him hard to take out, a powerful fighter, and I can't really think of anyone else that he might be a counterpart of.

[Starwulf]

problem with that:

Botamo might already BE the Majin Buu of his universe. He is fat, he has a hax defense that makes him hard to take out, a powerful fighter, and I can't really think of anyone else that he might be a counterpart of.

Hmmm...that's an interesting theory. Maybe the Buu of their universe was never sealed away like ours, and instead of absorbing a Kai, he ended up absorbing someone else that changed his features and instead of hax regen, he has hax defense instead. I could see that ^^. I'd still like to see my idea happen, a little mini-arc of U6 dealing with Buu when they got back, but if not I think I could go with your idea as headcanon :).

[Future Sword]

Or maybe Buu is just a U7 thing, and the universes aren't exact copies of each other.

[Xihirli]

Why would the other U6 fighters not be around if Buu were a thing? Every single one of the U6 fighters was punching at or above Buu tier, in the first tournament at least, and the U7 Buu didn't blow up the home worlds of any of the planets these fighters are from, as far as we're aware.
And why would summoning a new Earth bring in Buu? Buu isn't from earth.

[Mikeavelli]

Why would the other U6 fighters not be around if Buu were a thing? Every single one of the U6 fighters was punching at or above Buu tier, in the first tournament at least, and the U7 Buu didn't blow up the home worlds of any of the planets these fighters are from, as far as we're aware.
And why would summoning a new Earth bring in Buu? Buu isn't from earth.

In the first Tournament:

- Botamo has maybe Buu-tier defense, but he's got rubbish for offense and fighting skill.
- Frost was punching at Freeza saga level Freeza tier
- Magetta was punching above his tier because the rules of the tournament (extremely limited mobility) favored him, and has a weaksauce weakness.
- Cabba wasn't even Freeza saga level Freeza tier before going Super Saiyan.
- Hit was the only one punching above Buu-tier.

In the most recent tournament, it's pretty much just Kale and Caulifla who have stepped up to rivaling Buu.

[Starwulf]

In the first Tournament:

- Botamo has maybe Buu-tier defense, but he's got rubbish for offense and fighting skill.
- Frost was punching at Freeza saga level Freeza tier
- Magetta was punching above his tier because the rules of the tournament (extremely limited mobility) favored him, and has a weaksauce weakness.
- Cabba wasn't even Freeza saga level Freeza tier before going Super Saiyan.
- Hit was the only one punching above Buu-tier.

In the most recent tournament, it's pretty much just Kale and Caulifla who have stepped up to rivaling Buu.

Absolutely this.

And as far as Buu not being from earth...Uhh, yeah, he kinda was. That's where Bibidi(Babid's Father) stored Buu's seed/pod/whatever after he stuck him in there when Buu got too rebellious. He had intended on bringing him back out of it once he had calmed down, but he was discovered by the Supreme Kai's of the time and destroyed before he could. Babidi even mentions how long it had taken him to find where the pod was stored, and we've had several references to how backwater of a planet Earth is, so that makes sense. And given the fact that Bibidi storing Buu was thousands of years ago, I'm pretty sure he would have stuck it on Earth in U6 before it was destroyed, I doubt the humans had even evolved on the planet at that point. So definitely before their planet had been destroyed(Whis' counterpoint even specifies that it was the humans that had destroyed it).

And given how U6 and U7 are twin universes or whatever, and have so much else in common, it stands to reason that Buu might have existed in U6 as well.

Anyways, to add onto Mikeavelli: Botamo would have been absorbed in an instant. He's slow as hell, and while his "Impenetrable" defense shtick is useful against fighters that rely on conventional attacks, it's not going to work against Buu, at all.

Magetta: Not that strong honestly, and again fairly slow(but faster than Botamo). Another one absorbed if Buu couldn't destroy.

Cabba: Weaksauce. Even as a SSJ he wasn't that strong. Maybe a bit stronger than Goku when he fought against Frieza, but that's it. Obliterated, not even absorbed.

Frost: Same as Cabba. Marginally stronger than his counterpart was at the time of the Frieza saga, maybe. He relies on trickery a lot, so he might not have even been as strong. Obliterated.

Hit: I even mentioned Hit would still be alive, if Buu had encountered him, his rampage would have ended for sure, though not immediately, since Hit relies more on physical attacks, which aren't going to do enough damage to Buu to entirely atomize him.

As far as "Why" would they all be dead if Buu had shown up pre-1st tournament? Pretty simple really, their universe has more of a galatic peace than U7 does, and a threat the magnitude of Buu would have attracted all their attention, especially Cabba and Frost given their popularity in the own universe(again, pre 1st tournament, before it was found out how much of a scumbag Frost was). They'd have been called in to wipe out the threat, and been absorbed or obliterated. I'm not sure on whether or not Magetta or Botamo would have been called on, the 1st tournament doesn't go into whether or not they are players on the galatic/universal scale like Cabba/Frost were, but if they were...again, dead/absorbed.

[Xihirli]

In the first Tournament:

- Botamo has maybe Buu-tier defense, but he's got rubbish for offense and fighting skill.
- Frost was punching at Freeza saga level Freeza tier
- Magetta was punching above his tier because the rules of the tournament (extremely limited mobility) favored him, and has a weaksauce weakness.
- Cabba wasn't even Freeza saga level Freeza tier before going Super Saiyan.
- Hit was the only one punching above Buu-tier.

In the most recent tournament, it's pretty much just Kale and Caulifla who have stepped up to rivaling Buu.

Frost's third form was edging out Goku's base form when Goku's base explicitly became better than his Buu-saga SSJ3 (by a WIDE margin) during the BoG arc. Beyond that, an exhausted Frost was explicitly stated and shown to be stronger than Piccolo, who at that point was DEFINITELY ahead of Namek!Freeza.
Magetta can't fly, but in raw power he was equalling base Vegeta in a number of feats even before his advantage began to set in and managed to survive a Final Flash from SSJ Vegeta unscathed.
Cabba's base was about even with Vegeta's, which was pretty close to Goku's when they were training in the Time Chamber maybe an hour before the tournament began.

So... no. Incorrect.

[Future Sword]

Where did those estimates even come from? Did this suddenly become the "Let's All Forget How Super Works" thread, or something? Y'all are crossing my eyes with this random nonsense.

Vegeta told Cabba they were evenly matched, in their base forms. Vegeta is roughly equal to Goku in their base forms, and it's been that way for a hot minute. Goku fought post-training final form Freeza without transforming, so it's reasonable to infer that Vegeta could have, as well. If Cabba is about even with base Vegeta, there's no way in hell that he's as low as Namek-Saga Freeza.

Let's not get crazy, here.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah, normal form =/= namek saga. a base form is the main power of everyone, and super forms are just multipliers. if someone with a PL of 10 and someone with a PL of 100 both went super saiyan, the same gap would be there, since they both get boosted x50. the first guy would just have a PL of 500, and the later would have a PL of 5000.

the first U6 team are all clearly Majin Buu levels, its was clearly stated, and I have no doubt that they had their own adventures, its just that none of them were as ever limit-pushing as U7's were. I'd wager to guess its because of U6's tactical diversity:
-Magetta and Botamo pretty much impervious to all attacks they tried, only getting defeated by ring out both times. its likely they had fought many threats without needing to worry about their own safety
- Frost is too clever- he after all uses things like poison and other unfair tactics, so his battles are often done before his foes can truly test his limits
-Hit is so good at his assassination job that he was happy to finally have someone that could actually challenge him
-while U6 saiyans are a race that go around fighting threats to protect others, pure good guys. so they would often work as a team to take down threats they can't do alone, this is seen most when Kale and Caulifla fight Goku together without any bickering over who gets a turn.

meaning, in a real battle for war or protecting others, U6 is actually probably pretty good. but in a tournament setting, Magetta and Botamo can get ringed out, Frost's poison is cheating, the U6 saiyans have to fight alone, and Hit.....well he is actually good in both settings, but Hit still has to hold back since his techniques kill which isn't allowed.

meaning the reason why they are weaker than U7 is because they never had any impetus to get individually stronger, since they either had a hax defense, unfair tactic figured out or teamwork to help them, while Hit became so strong that he stagnated without a greater challenge to pursue, and was taking out targets with one hit before they realized what happened.

Its also why U6 isn't doing so well in the tournament of power- they have a lot of talents that make them competent dangerous foes to face, but they are so used to a universe where their tactics work out that they're over confident about their advantages and thus are caught off guard when their tricks don't work.

[Anteros]

Where did those estimates even come from? Did this suddenly become the "Let's All Forget How Super Works" thread, or something? Y'all are crossing my eyes with this random nonsense.

Vegeta told Cabba they were evenly matched, in their base forms. Vegeta is roughly equal to Goku in their base forms, and it's been that way for a hot minute. Goku fought post-training final form Freeza without transforming, so it's reasonable to infer that Vegeta could have, as well. If Cabba is about even with base Vegeta, there's no way in hell that he's as low as Namek-Saga Freeza.

Let's not get crazy, here.

Vegeta was toying with Cabba. He tanked Cabba's best shot with his forehead while they were in the same form. They are in no way equal or even close.

[Starwulf]

Vegeta was toying with Cabba. He tanked Cabba's best shot with his forehead while they were in the same form. They are in no way equal or even close.

Yeah, it's like everyone keeps forgetting Goku's(and Vegeta's to a lesser, but only slightly so extent) tendency to muck around, only matching their opponents power so they can have a good fight. I mean, it's not like it hasn't happened a dozen times already, and even mentioned as such several times as well.

There are no words, no proof that can be given that could convince me any of U6 contestants were on Majin Buu's power level except Hit. Botamo literally only has his defense going for him, he possesses very little actual combat strength, he just uses his weight to knock people around, which has been shown time and time again, literally. Both in the first tournament, and the 2nd, he has literally only attempted to push people over the edge. I mean, Gohan literally just lifted him up off his feet like...2 inches, and that was enough to take him out of the fight. Someone with even a modicum of fighting prowess/strength would have been able to stop that. Magetta has a bit more offense, and a little less defense(Vegeta was pretty close to knocking him out of the ring even without the insult in the 1st tournament), but none of it was even close to actually harming Vegeta, even in his base state. It was just the lack of oxygen caused by the extreme heat.

Frost was a pathetic creature that had to rely on poisons to win. He has not once shown a serious power-level at any point in time. When Goku went SSJ, he was absolutely wrecking him until the poison started to take effect, and even then he only went SSJ in order to convince Frost to get more serious and power up to his final form. He basically backed Frost into a corner with overwhelming power in order to force him to break out the final/real form. There's nothing saying that Goku couldn't have wrecked him without SSJ, he just didn't bother, probably because by the time he realized how vastly more powerful he was, Frost had already been beaten down, almost to the point of being knocked out. Again, only the poison saved Frost there.

Cabba was nowhere near on Vegeta's level. The Manga shows this much more clearly than the anime iirc, but quite honestly, even the anime made it seem that Cabba was vastly outclassed. Vegeta was just toying with him, humoring him because he thought the boy was just warming up. Do remember how angry he was when he realized that was all that Cabba had.

[Xihirli]

Except that Super Saiyan is way more powerful than that after you've mastered it, as with Ascended SSJ and Full Powered SSJ, the in-between phases from SSJ to SSJ2, so no. Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was better mastered and much stronger than Cabba's, so in the anime, where Vegeta turns to the audience and says we're even in base form, they are, and Vegeta just happens to have a much better hold on Super Saiyan than a kid who just learned it.

And while yes, Vegeta and Goku both tend to hold back, this is directly discussed during the tournament. Every time Vegeta tells Goku, or vice versa, that "you could have ended it," they're referring to just transforming to Blue, not holding back as they were. So the way their opponents fared against whatever form they were fighting is representative on how they measure up against the form and opponent they're fighting.

And prefacing your arguments with "I cannot be convinced otherwise" sort of reveals that you're not interested in actual discussion.

[JadedDM]

Did you guys hear about the interview with Toriyama that explained what really causes Super Sayians? Turns out it's not about energy levels, rage, or the small of your back.

Spoiler

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It's caused by midi-chlorians. S-cells.

[Lord Raziere]

......

Spoiler: Interview

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.......What I'm hearing is that you can possibly extract S-cells from a super saiyan then inject anyone with them to make anyone a super-saiyan. or at least any human or saiyan, since they're biologies prove compatible.

[Rater202]

Let me get this straight:

Spoiler

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Saiyans have special cells in their bodies.

The number of these Cells vary and can increase.

Once you have enough, you can go Super Saiyan.

The rage boost tha t turns you Sper Saiyan the first time increases the number of cells in your body.

Goku and Vegeta are genetically predisposed to having a large number of these cells.

Increases in the number of cells are heritable.

...Makes more sense than Midichlorians.

...Theory: Bulma discovers this phenomenon, studies it, extracts some from whoever, and starts implanting them into the human fighters, possibly with minor genetic alterations.

This is why everyone human in Dragon Ball Online could go Super and why Xenoverse "Saiyans"
don't have tails.

...I wonder if this isn't like the "Red Baby" cells in Tokyo Ghoul where they're responsible for the powers of the "race" and recovering from severe injuries results in you having more of them throughout your body and that makes you stronger and that's how Zenkai works?

[Future Sword]

I'm... actually kinda into this new revelation.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Interview @ Rater:

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It would make more sense for how the super saiyan happens so often in Online without Goku and Vegeta having to get a big human harem to make a bunch of half-saiyan babies. Bulma's got the money, the saiyan, smarts and connections to make something like S-Cells a marketable medical treatment for martial artists, and the various cultural barriers to Goku and Vegeta doing that plus Goku's own.......unique mental faculties, probably means that the harem wouldn't happen. I can even see Trunks volunteering his own S-Cells for such a procedure if he figures it out and takes over the company instead.

[Rater202]

Well, now I've got ideas for new and rehashed OCs.

Spoiler: is this even a spoiler?

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...And now I'm imagining a What-If scenario where Frieza's scientists discovered this and frieza used it to make his own Super Saiyans.

[Anteros]

Yeah...I think that's pretty dumb. I'm just gonna ignore it unless they actually make it part of the show.

[Xihirli]

The great thing about Dragonball is that it's so hard to determine what's "canon" that you can only count the parts you like as canon and find some other reason for why you don't count it.

[JadedDM]

My thing about this revelation is that I feel it undermines the premise of the show itself. Wasn't the original idea that Goku is a low level warrior, who nobody ever expected much from (as opposed to someone like Vegeta, an elite warrior and prince of all Sayians). But because he put in the time and effort, and trained constantly, Goku surpassed all others, including Vegeta. Thus proving it's not about the circumstances of your birth that determine who you are, but how much effort you're willing to work at things to improve.

But now it turns out, oh wait, Goku actually is special. He has special genes that make him special, and if he didn't have those genes, he'd never have advanced as far as he did in strength and power, even with all of his years of training.

[Anteros]

My thing about this revelation is that I feel it undermines the premise of the show itself. Wasn't the original idea that Goku is a low level warrior, who nobody ever expected much from (as opposed to someone like Vegeta, an elite warrior and prince of all Sayians). But because he put in the time and effort, and trained constantly, Goku surpassed all others, including Vegeta. Thus proving it's not about the circumstances of your birth that determine who you are, but how much effort you're willing to work at things to improve.

But now it turns out, oh wait, Goku actually is special. He has special genes that make him special, and if he didn't have those genes, he'd never have advanced as far as he did in strength and power, even with all of his years of training.

Sorta. In the original Dragonball Goku was just naturally better than everyone else due to his genetics. The "low level warrior" stuff was only a thing for like the Saiyan saga in Z. It's always been more of a Vegeta specific hangup than an actual Goku character trait.

[Lord Raziere]

Sorta. In the original Dragonball Goku was just naturally better than everyone else due to his genetics. The "low level warrior" stuff was only a thing for like the Saiyan saga in Z. It's always been more of a Vegeta specific hangup than an actual Goku character trait.

Yeah, that is kind of true.

lets examine which of these warriors truly worked hard for their power without any inherent advantages:

-Goku: hes a saiyan, he's had the zenkai and saiyan instincts thing boosting him the entire time, and super saiyan kind of boosts your power far beyond your skill to win.
-Krillin: human, so hes had to work hard
Roshi: guy has had anti-age put on him, meaning he has a long time to perfect his techniques beyond most people, so it does count as an unfair advantage that others don't have.
-Tien Shinhan: unfortunately, Tien has distant alien genes. thats why he has a third eye. sorry Tien, your just as alien as Gohan, you just didn't win the saiyan lottery
Chiaotzu: he is human. so probably.
Yamcha: human, no advantages, has had to work hard for his power......no matter how little he has and how ineffective he is
Piccolo: inherited his memories and techniques from Demon King Piccolo, has regeneration, arm-stretch attacks, so he has some inherent advantages aside fromh ard work
Gohan: half saiyan genes and trained by Goku himself to get super saiyan by the Hyperbolic time chamber, that and potential unlock, TWICE.
Vegeta: yeah, he has super saiyan genes, he married bulma and got free gravity chambers, he outright exploited his Zenkai in Namek saga, he willingly took the Majin boost from babidi, he doesn't care about working hard
Ginyu: lets face it, he probably stole a lot of bodies, each one incrementally more powerful than the last to be so strong, though it does take some time to figure out how they work.
Freeza: he was literally born with the level of power he had for his entire life before Goku came along, he didn't work for it
Androids 17 and 18: got forcibly implanted with infinite energy drives by a mad scientist, about as far away as you can get from it
Android 20: modified himself to drain energy from others, not hard work unless you count the hard work it takes to design reality-breaking inventions to do all this
Cell: same as Freeza but with frankenstein DNA, he didn't work for his power through training, he used gene hax and draining androids to do that
Majin Buu: eldritch being of great power and great emotion from the dawn of time who just seems to do strange things without even trying. yeah, he didn't earn it
Beerus: putting aside his GoD powers, he doesn't seem to have any special tricks to how he fights. so Beerus very very probably earned his GoD-hood.
Whis: on the other hand, despite being more powerful than Beerus was probably created like that. maybe. we don't know, angels are mysterious and seem to be reality warpers.
Hit: has a greater power than Zenkai in Improvement, but relies on his techniques most of all, so he probably did a lot to refine his time skip ability to its utmost, so kind of hard wrok?
Zamasu: HAHAHAHAHAHA NO, Mr. Fusion and Immortality Hax.
Jiren: has no tricks or gimmicks to him. probably worked the hardest.

so yeah, the people who probably earned their power the most are Jiren and Beerus, followed by Krillin, Yamcha and Chiaotzu

[Xihirli]

I feel like your top two should be categorized under "not enough information" instead of "worked the hardest."