Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Lord Raziere]

I feel like your top two should be categorized under "not enough information" instead of "worked the hardest."

they don't seem to fight with any special tricks and no one sees anything unusual in how they fight to explain it to the audience or wonder how they are doing this or that.

Dragon Ball generally shows the gimmicks that its using right off the bat. if Beerus and Jiren aren't exhibiting anything that needs to be explained, they aren't doing anything out of the ordinary aside from unimaginably powerful they are.

[Xihirli]

Gohan doesn't have any gimmicks either. His power is basically all unearned.

[Lord Raziere]

Gohan doesn't have any gimmicks either. His power is basically all unearned.

Nope, super saiyan is a gimmick. your boosting your power x50 for a temporary duration, your hair's going gold and your filled with rage. basically a berserker form. So.....gimmick.

[Rater202]

...Is the Saiyan equivalent of a vampire someone who harvests another Saiyan's s-cells?

[Rakaydos]

Nope, super saiyan is a gimmick. your boosting your power x50 for a temporary duration, your hair's going gold and your filled with rage. basically a berserker form. So.....gimmick.

What about Mystic Gohan?

[Lord Raziere]

What about Mystic Gohan?

.........good point, anyone could theoretically become Mystic, not just Gohan. just like how anyone could theoretically achieve Ultra-Instinct. so they wouldn't count as gimmicks since any person could achieve them if they tried. but that has nothing to do with Jiren or Beerus. Beerus just seems to be a purple cat and no one has mentioned any special advantages from his biology nor is there any specific backstory saying he got it through bull hax, so its assumed he worked for his power. its just the baseline assumption of a martial arts story.

same with Jiren. if there was any time for Belmod to give backstory on how Jiren has some bull hax ability that allows him to defeat people the way he does, we would've gotten that during Jiren and Goku's first fight. the entire point of introducing such hax is to demonstrate an overreliance on the hax so that protagonist figures out a weakness that can be exploited to win against it if your good enough. Jiren isn't demonstrating anything like that. his abilities have been:
-absurdly strong, strong fast and durable.
-ball blast
-eye beams
-force fields of pure willpower
-break a timestop with pure willpower

none of which are out of place with normal dragon ball z abilities. such forcefields have been used since Tien- they're called Kiai- to block ki attacks and push people around, and psychic powers to move things with your mind is something that happened before in Dragon Ball with other people, while Buu and Gotenks have managed to scream themselves out of another dimension and Zamasu slashed a hole in the universe where clones of him started spilling out. so he hasn't done anything out of the ordinary for Dragon Ball except in scope and quality.

and since he is such a superman expy, I half expect Toriyama to be all like "and now lets reveal that Jiren is actually weak to some random green thing!" for the punchline to the superman joke he is making.

[jindra34]

Spoiler: Episode 118

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Proper title: Jokers revealed and beaten.

Whelp we got to see Gohan be all awesome what with almost soloing both the U6 Namekians... who had indeed done massive fusion stacking to get to that point of power. Well done kid.

And U2 pulled ANOTHER trick out of their sleeve (actually 2) and the results might have worked, HAD THEY NOT USED THEM ON GOKU. So those idiots get deleted.

[Lemmy]

S-Cells...

When you think Toriyama can't get a higher grade in George Lucas' school of "How to Ruin Your Greatest Work", he surprises us all again.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Dragon Ball Super Episode 118

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and so U2 and U6 begin to make their last stands. lets hope they do it well, and go out with style.

WAIT THEY'RE AIRING THIS!? TO EVERYONE!? WHELP. THERE GOES THE WHOLE "KEEPING THE DESTRUCTION SECRET SO THAT PEOPLE DON'T PANIC" THEORY!

oh its just U2. nevermind. they're just being idiots as always.

oh can it peanut gallery. we all know Goku isn't going to lose to these three guys.

oh. OH. OOOOOOOOH.........thats why they're broadcasting......U2......is using their version of the spirit bomb.....with their entire universe. to bring their last three fighters all the energy power they can......

....ok they look ridiculous, but I'm still sad.

ok, the Androids getting into this is funny and also oddly reminiscent of how my android OC's like to cosplay, what the hell, Toriyama how do you keep reading my mind?

and of course, the U6 Namekians fused with many of their race to get as much as power as they can to survive, to protect U6.........

yeah, yeah, High Priest. whatever. but yeah, they are giving it their all, and both Universes are trying their hardest to save the people in them. I think "Battle Against a True Hero" is appropriate here.

ok ok, Gohan protecting Piccolo like Piccolo protected him from Nappa is a great callback, and Nail and Kami silently appearing is well done, I'll give them props for that ONE nostalgia trip of many.

oh. Wow, that technique.....0_0 THAT COULD ACTUALLY WIN THEM THIS. ....THEY DOING THIS BETTER THAN I THOUGHT, I THOUGHT IT'D BE HOPELESS FOR THEM.....BUT THEY HAVE A CHANCE AND.....ITS ALL THE SADDER FOR IT.....

AND......U7 WINS AGAIN.....

.....U2 GOES OUT THE SAME WAY THEY CAME IN.........CUTESY AND PROCLAIMING LOVE EVEN WHEN FACING DEATH.

AND U6.........CHAMPA'S LAST ACT WAS TO MAKE A FACE AT HIS BROTHER AS IF HE WASN'T ABOUT TO DIE..... AND CAULIFLA TRIED TO MAKE GOOD ON HER PROMISE TO CLOBBER THEM....

Beerus.....I think he is hiding his distress over his brother going...."say something"....I think its too himself, advice too late, too late to show his love, too late to say goodbye.

and Vegeta clenches his fists at Cabba's passing, and says he is in a terrible mood....he truly did care for the guy.

13 minutes. sigh.....and its only going to get worse from here.

Tournament Status:
U7: 7/10
U3: 6/10
U4: 3/10
U11: 3/10
U2: Erased.
U6: Erased.
U10: Erased.
U9: Erased.
Total: 19 fighters remaining.

Only U7, U3, U4 and U11 remain. the two highs and two stable lows. U4 is probably next. then U3, then U11. Unless U3 and U4 get taken out at the same time as well.

But yeah, we basically got the two smart Universes and Jiren left, and are now getting into the final phase of the tournament. U7 has remained stable with seven fighters for quite a long time now. some things gotta start taking them out for this to have any tension. I just hope whatever last trump cards U3 and U4 have are good enough to be worth the wait before their inevitable defeat.....

[Future Sword]

I really liked this episode. It hit all the right notes, and had some real weight to it.

[khadgar567]

you know i want to see shokugeki between jiren and goku with omni king as only judge

[Starwulf]

Man, that episode had a lot of punch to it,

Spoiler

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even if it was inevitable that U2 and U6 were going out in this episode, the emotional weight of it was actually pretty startling. I actually felt kind of amazed/bad/sad/impressed/something I can't quite describe with U2's 3 remaining fighters, especially when they manifested their own transformations of love, and then again when their universe was erased. It was a good way for them to go out, good and...appropriate.

U6 was pretty much as most of us were thinking, that their Namekians weren't just two separate Namekians, but two fused together with a good many of their own race. It didn't serve them very well, but it did serve to finally bring out Gohan's real power(or at least most of it I'm assuming), which made me happy, was tired of seeing him being thrown around like a ragdoll again and again, when we all knew he had a lot more power than what was being shown. He was just being his normal soft-hearted self(well, that and practical I guess, since he figured his real power would lead to deaths, and thus his own expulsion).

Champa's farewell definitely touched me, he knew their were no words that could really convey how he felt towards his brother, and how he'd miss him, so he just went with a gesture that he knew his brother would understand. And, I agree with Raziere, Beerus's words of "Say something" was towards himself, probably angry at his own inability to say anything meaningful to his brother, while his brother was able to convey his love towards him despite being erased.

Very heavy episode over-all, look forward to next weeks, the preview definitely seemed interesting. I wonder if

Spoiler

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those little creatures we saw are just manifestations of U4's destroyer(I'm assuming I have the right universe, the Mouse destroyer), somehow given physical form and a decent amount of his own strength somehow.

[Lemmy]

Holy ****! That episode was actually really good!

Even if the outcome was predictable, the battles were intense and the emotional impact was truly well done.

Well done, DBS. Well done.

(Even a broken clock is right twice a day).

[chainer1216]

i fear Piccolo isn't long for this tournament, the notes he hit in this episode are too similar to the notes krillan and roshi had right before they got eliminated.

[Xihirli]

I think with those three eliminations Goku took Vegeta's MVP status.

[The Troubadour]

Great episode. Did not like the subversion that men are better at being magical girls than women, but great episode.

.........good point, anyone could theoretically become Mystic, not just Gohan.

Could they? Wasn't that "form" achieved at least partly by Gohan's untapped reserves of strength?

[Rater202]

Great episode. Did not like the subversion that men are better being magical girls than women, but great episode.



Could they? Wasn't it achieved due to Gohan's untapped reserves of strength?

1: Mistci is a fanon term--the proper name is either "Ultimate Gohan" for the form Gohan assumes, "Potential Unlocked" for what the transformation is called, or "Elder Kai's unlocking abillty" for what Elder Kai(or rather, the witch he fused with,) does to grant it.

It's a transformation that Elder Kai can grant to people. The Strength of the transforation is proportionate to their potential. I don't know if it's canon, but in Xenoverse, Elder Kai states that you have to be near or even at the natural limits of your potential in order to use it, which would be consistantwith Gohan losing the form when she started slacking off again.

It's supposed to bring you beyond the limits o your potential and grant you cheap and easy access to the full brunt of your power.

So Ultimate Gohan is "As strong as Gohan is capable of being at this time at no draw back."

Which makes it both more powerful and more practical than his Super Saiyan forms--if I understand it right, if Gohan were to get Super Saiyan 3, Blue, or Rage, his Ultimate form would get stronger to account for it.

So basically, anybody could get that transformation if they can sit still long enough, but not everyone is going to get the same mileage out of it.

[Starwulf]

Great episode. Did not like the subversion that men are better at being magical girls than women, but great episode.

I didn't feel like that was the message at all. More like....they adored/worshipped Ribrianne so much, and wanted so hard to make her proud of them, that they unlocked their own form, and then with the overwhelming love they could feel pouring in from the universe, they were able to use "Love's" ultimate attack. I feel that Ribrianne wasn't able to, because while she had the adoration and love of her entire universe, they weren't sending it in such massive quantities at the time because they felt she already had the strength to do it. When she fell, U2 realized they had to be more proactive, and that's why what happened, happened.

[Lord Raziere]

Could they? Wasn't that "form" achieved at least partly by Gohan's untapped reserves of strength?

Well at least any half saiyan I should think, but this power doesn't seem particularly saiyan-ish so I'd think its actually drawing on his human side? it was achieved because of a kai unlocking someone's untapped potential. untapped potential doesn't really care which race your from. remember, this is still a thing running on eastern myth, and one of the assumptions is that everyone has a spark of divinity within them (which is referenced in DBZ's first song with the line: SPARKING!!), just takes a lot of work to bring it out. if only saiyans could be strong or achieve something godlike, we wouldn't have Beerus or Jiren or any of the Gods of Destruction.

its just that saiyans are the only ones with hax abilities like Zenkai to bring it out faster and hair colors to signify when they're tapping into higher levels of it. in normal martial arts wuxia, there is no visual indication whether somebody is stronger than you, they just kick your ass. thats where the phrase "crouching tiger, hidden dragon" comes from, because you normally never know who will turn out to be the strongest fighter there, because one fighter is a crouching tiger hiding their true abilities, another fighter is a dragon who is really strong master of the art but y'know, HIDDEN. its why Roshi can be a badass while still looking like an unseemly old man. heck "crouching tiger hidden dragon" is a big part of the drama around Beerus when he first showed up on earth because he didn't initially act threatening at all, was perfectly respectful and no one could sense his true strength, so no one would ever knew to treat him with eggshells because of it. its similar to that mythological tale where greek gods show up to various people in disguise asking for hospitality as beggars then destroys them after revealing their true nature, its a lesson to be respectful because you don't know who might you be disrespectful to. you don't want to tick off the wrong guy in a world of supernatural martial arts because any of them could be martial arts masters but not wearing any gi because y'know....they have lives outside of fighting even if fighting is a big part of it.

this is mostly because martial arts were developed by the lower classes of society when nobles outlawed them having weapons, so the entire point of martial arts is for them to be hidden, and for anyone to be able to use them.

so no, saiyans aren't really stronger than anyone else, they just get access to the strength they have faster through a trick or two of biology and a psychology to constantly try to get more of it obsessively. Jiren if he has no tricks like Goku and Vegeta, probably spent LONGER to achieve his power than they did. but yeah, maybe the Mystic would vary in power depending on the persons talents, but the point is anyone could work to achieve something like that, maybe not always in the same way, maybe with modifications to work better with a different fighting style, but it can and should be. and Ultra Instinct is pretty much confirmed universal.

[Anteros]

Goku tanks bullets to the face as an untrained child. Saiyans are definitely naturally stronger than other races.

[Starwulf]

Goku tanks bullets to the face as an untrained child. Saiyans are definitely naturally stronger than other races.

Not to mention people like Tien, or even Piccolo have been training just as hard, and just as long as Goku and Vegeta, yet aren't even a fraction of their over-all strength. They've improved their power, yes, but nowhere near as much given their level of effort. If anything I'd say Tien has probably trained harder than anyone(or at least, he had up until the Buu Saga, and then after Frieza came back in Super he began training seriously again), and yet when the Androids showed up, he wasn't even cannon fodder for them. He literally had to drain his body of all it's power, using his strongest attack, just to keep Cell pinned down(but not hurt, nope, not even a scratch).

Honestly, saying it's "Just a trick of biology" technically is right, just not the way Raziere was trying to paint it as. Biology is biology. It's not a trick, or a hax, it's how you're born. They are Saiyans, they are a naturally stronger race than the majority of races that have been revealed thus far. That means that other races aren't ever going to catch up, because they are naturally weaker. They are going to have lower ceilings, and can't do anything to raise them. If they want to break them, they would have to jump through hoops far more convoluted than achieving Super Saiyan, like go sit through a ridiculous ceremony performed by the Elder Kai.

Trying to say that anyone can be as strong as a different race/species if they train enough is silly. It's like saying that a potato bug can become as strong and large as a praying mantis. Or that a turtle could become as fast as a Cheetah, or that a goldfish could eat more than a shark. Or that a human could become as strong as an gorilla. No matter how much any of the "lesser's" in those scenario's train and fight against their limitations, they'll never overcome them enough to be on par with the "stronger".

So if Jiren ends up being stronger than Goku/Vegeta, it's because his races biology primed him to be that way, either in starting him out stronger, or giving him a higher ceiling, or both. It is possible he trained harder, but if his species didn't have such a high ceiling cap on strength, he wouldn't be as strong as he is now.

[Durkoala]

Not to mention people like Tien, or even Piccolo have been training just as hard, and just as long as Goku and Vegeta, yet aren't even a fraction of their over-all strength. They've improved their power, yes, but nowhere near as much given their level of effort. If anything I'd say Tien has probably trained harder than anyone(or at least, he had up until the Buu Saga, and then after Frieza came back in Super he began training seriously again), and yet when the Androids showed up, he wasn't even cannon fodder for them. He literally had to drain his body of all it's power, using his strongest attack, just to keep Cell pinned down(but not hurt, nope, not even a scratch).

Honestly, saying it's "Just a trick of biology" technically is right, just not the way Raziere was trying to paint it as. Biology is biology. It's not a trick, or a hax, it's how you're born. They are Saiyans, they are a naturally stronger race than the majority of races that have been revealed thus far. That means that other races aren't ever going to catch up, because they are naturally weaker. They are going to have lower ceilings, and can't do anything to raise them. If they want to break them, they would have to jump through hoops far more convoluted than achieving Super Saiyan, like go sit through a ridiculous ceremony performed by the Elder Kai.

Trying to say that anyone can be as strong as a different race/species if they train enough is silly. It's like saying that a potato bug can become as strong and large as a praying mantis. Or that a turtle could become as fast as a Cheetah, or that a goldfish could eat more than a shark. Or that a human could become as strong as an ape. No matter how much any of the "lesser's" in those scenario's train and fight against their limitations, they'll never overcome them enough to be on par with the "stronger".

It has been repeatedly shown that the humans can keep up with saiyans in their base forms: Most of the Z fighters have quickly ascended to Goku's level when undergoing the same training as he went through. It's when the transformations come into the picture that they get left behind and the problem is excarbated by the fact that very few of them try to keep up once super saiyans crop up like mould in a dark bathroom. Piccolo also managed to briefly outclass the entire saiyan cast in the Cell saga. Overall, it feels like it's possible for non saiyans to keep up if they have the drive. In fact, they may have a stamina advantage over the power-draining Super Saiyans if they manage to fight on their level, but none of the cast actually try as they aren't combat addicts like Goku or Vegeta.

[Starwulf]

It has been repeatedly shown that the humans can keep up with saiyans in their base forms: Most of the Z fighters have quickly ascended to Goku's level when undergoing the same training as he went through. It's when the transformations come into the picture that they get left behind and the problem is excarbated by the fact that very few of them try to keep up once super saiyans crop up like mould in a dark bathroom. Piccolo also managed to briefly outclass the entire saiyan cast in the Cell saga. Overall, it feels like it's possible for non saiyans to keep up if they have the drive. In fact, they may have a stamina advantage over the power-draining Super Saiyans if they manage to fight on their level, but none of the cast actually try as they aren't combat addicts like Goku or Vegeta.

Ok, but Super Saiyan is part of their biology. It isn't a trick or a hack, it's their biology. Humans don't have that transformation, thus their power ceiling is lower over-all. Saying "They can keep up to their transformations" isn't proving they can be as strong, it's merely highlighting where their biology fails to keep up with that of a Saiyans. And Goku proved it was possible to reduce the SSJ strain to absolute minimum when he trained with Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, so even saying that if they trained enough they could get enough stamina to outlast the transformation isn't even necessarily true.

Also, as far as Piccolo eclipsing everyone when he fused with Kami....we don't know that for sure. Goku was still recovering from the Heart Virus. We have no clue what his over-all power level was at that point. He was leagues ahead of Vegeta prior to the 3 year training trip, so it stands to reason he'd have been significantly ahead of him still after the 3 years. So it's quite possible that Goku could have beaten 17 and 18 by himself if he hadn't been afflicted with the Heart Virus.

[Lord Raziere]

It has been repeatedly shown that the humans can keep up with saiyans in their base forms: Most of the Z fighters have quickly ascended to Goku's level when undergoing the same training as he went through. It's when the transformations come into the picture that they get left behind and the problem is excarbated by the fact that very few of them try to keep up once super saiyans crop up like mould in a dark bathroom. Piccolo also managed to briefly outclass the entire saiyan cast in the Cell saga. Overall, it feels like it's possible for non saiyans to keep up if they have the drive. In fact, they may have a stamina advantage over the power-draining Super Saiyans if they manage to fight on their level, but none of the cast actually try as they aren't combat addicts like Goku or Vegeta.

Exactly.

Goku: trains with Kami for like five years, gets powerful enough to fight Piccolo Jr.

Krillin, Tien and Yamcha: trains with Kami for one year, all of them get powerful enough to take on Raditz, who is more powerful

these do not indicate that humans are inherently weaker than saiyans. if anything saiyans develop slower than humans.

Edit: also the "tougher than bullets" thing? doesn't mean much. Goku was PL 10 when that happened. the average person is PL 5. meaning the amount of power it takes to become immune to bullets is trivial in Dragon Ball, barely worth mentioning.

[Rakaydos]

I think with those three eliminations Goku took Vegeta's MVP status.

I'm pretty sure the MVP status has been on Android 17 the whole time. Nevermind knockouts, his Assist and Save count is incredible.

[Sapreaver]

Exactly.

Goku: trains with Kami for like five years, gets powerful enough to fight Piccolo Jr.

Krillin, Tien and Yamcha: trains with Kami for one year, all of them get powerful enough to take on Raditz, who is more powerful

these do not indicate that humans are inherently weaker than saiyans. if anything saiyans develop slower than humans.

Edit: also the "tougher than bullets" thing? doesn't mean much. Goku was PL 10 when that happened. the average person is PL 5. meaning the amount of power it takes to become immune to bullets is trivial in Dragon Ball, barely worth mentioning.

If your talkiny about the pl of the human radditz killed. The scanner was giving the pl of the gun

[HolyDraconus]

Exactly.

Goku: trains with Kami for like five years, gets powerful enough to fight Piccolo Jr.

Krillin, Tien and Yamcha: trains with Kami for one year, all of them get powerful enough to take on Raditz, who is more powerful

these do not indicate that humans are inherently weaker than saiyans. if anything saiyans develop slower than humans.

Edit: also the "tougher than bullets" thing? doesn't mean much. Goku was PL 10 when that happened. the average person is PL 5. meaning the amount of power it takes to become immune to bullets is trivial in Dragon Ball, barely worth mentioning.

And both Goku and Krillin have PL trillions of times higher than that and both were harmed far more by bullets than kid Goku. Just saying

[lord_khaine]

Alright that episode was straight up awesome.
That the guys from the love universe got the same type of transformation as the girls were hilarious, and while the way Goku defeated them were kinda boring, then the fight afterwards were one of the best DBZ fights ever. its really a shame it did not last longer, but i do love how both Gohan and Picollo were working together as a team, switching back and forth, covering each other. I do also think those two have the deepest and best developed friendship in the serie.

All the same, the last bit with Champa and Berus were also great. That scene packed such an immense amount of emotion into such a tiny space.

[The Troubadour]

As good as the fights were, the best part was Androids 17 and 18 hamming it up as "villains", then getting Goku to play along.

[Starwulf]

As good as the fights were, the best part was Androids 17 and 18 hamming it up as "villains", then getting Goku to play along.

Honestly, the entire episode combined into probably the best episode of Dragon Ball since the Cell Saga. I don't think there was one sour note in the entire episode, honestly feel bad going into the next episode knowing that it's going to be pretty much impossible to top it, or even come close to equaling it. Just have to steel myself for a medium to major letdown on the heels of that all-star episode.