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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    That's a good question. How in the Hell IS Gero' s droids better than the best of an entire universe that is dedicated to such things? Pretty sure that Cell at this point would be dying of laughter after seeing them.
    Pretty sure it's the same reason 17 and 18 can survive SSB, which is so far beyond Gohan's old SS2 that beat Cell. Universe 7's dedication is to ADVANCEMENT.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    That's a good question. How in the Hell IS Gero' s droids better than the best of an entire universe that is dedicated to such things? Pretty sure that Cell at this point would be dying of laughter after seeing them.
    One Reed Richards still beats an entire universe of Nikola Tesla.

    It just happens that the DB Equivalent of Richards was evil, insane, or both.

    Though it should be noted that the Science Universes team are remote controlled robots while Gero's creations were free willied Androids, Cyborgs, and clones(and 17 and maybe 18 are much stronger now than they were when Gero moddified them specifically becuase they're based on humans.)
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    That's a good question. How in the Hell IS Gero' s droids better than the best of an entire universe that is dedicated to such things? Pretty sure that Cell at this point would be dying of laughter after seeing them.
    I assume it's because Universe 7 has a much larger focus on combat than Universe 3 does.

    It's also important to remember that Androids 17 and 18 are basically just humans with infinite stamina. They can improve like humans do, simply by training.
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    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    That's a good question. How in the Hell IS Gero' s droids better than the best of an entire universe that is dedicated to such things? Pretty sure that Cell at this point would be dying of laughter after seeing them.
    I don't know

    but all those justifications? "U7 is advancement universe" "Reed Richards better than entire Nikola Tesla verse" all are comic book explanations. lets ignore that for a moment and actually apply sense and logic to this (A dangerous thing to do with Toriyama works indeed):

    1. an entire universe of Nikolas Tesla's would kick a single Reed Richards ass any day, every day of the week in technology. why? because technology isn't actually about how ingenious you are. its about: the resources you have available, the techniques to process those resources available, and how long your willing to work hard to make a design work and improve upon it until it does. trillions upon trillions of Teslas perspiring would outbuild and outdesign a single Reed-Richards inspired, simply because they'd constantly be checking each others work, improving upon each others designs, correcting each others mistakes, testing out more things with more people available, and generally just having a ridiculous amount of people to find out knowledge all at the same time. this combined with the fact that the have planets of machinery to help mass-produce anything and everything.....well you get the picture. a single guy no matter genius, no matter how devoted to advancement, has no hope of competing with an entire civilization.

    2. even if U3 was doing remote controlled robots, this is honestly a bad way to do those remote controls. Why haven't they've been implanted in your brain? why are they silly combining mecha at all? where are the nanorobotics that make them regenerate, or turn into clouds at will so that you can't knock them off easily, why is the best Catoplesa's power armor can do is little boosts (yes I know Kamen Rider parody, don't care) when it could y'know, do so much more? like a grappling feature to keep from falling the off ring? or a jetpack? in fact, why isn't the whole team implanted with jet packs? they are non-ki based flight, and it count since its something implanted into them and not using a separate object.

    3. they missed a great opportunity to simply find a U3 alien thats like made of plasma, put them in a power suit then reveal that he is made of plasma when he takes it off....and he is like this humanoid living star that is constantly generating star levels of heat around him so he needs to wear a power suit just to interact with ordinary civilization, so even stepping close at all is dangerous, the ground itself heats up and makes it harder to focus on even getting near him and even if you could, he is made of plasma, what are you going to do about that? how do you get around that? most likely you don't, because this plasma fighter would be literally too hot to handle, give him competent fighting capabilities and he would be a threat nearly as difficult and terrifying as Jiren, simply because he is made of plasma. it would be a good example of U3 being able to stack the deck like any good smart person would.

    4. remote control nothing, with the advanced tech they SHOULD have, they could make these robots a hive mind with little effort. just like, go full borg on the Tournament of Power, fighting one of them and all the fighters on U3 learn from it, have them rapidly adapt and change tactics as new information is revealed, no need for a central fighter that controls the rest, they are just one big being with ten bodies that learns incredibly fast from all the bodies that is observing the fighters its in and around.

    5. infinity engines should honestly be old news to U3. they should be like "I recognize your engine right away, those are clearly primitive models, look at the upgrades WE have!" making Androids 17 and 18 have to fight a foe that is just as tireless as them and therefore have to ether die or fly when they encounter someone that they can't just wait out, one who has additional upgrades to make it even harder. wouldn't THAT be an awesome fight to see!? I mean c'mon, admit it, wasted opportunity there.

    6. bring back energy drain hands? No? even though it'd be very advantageous and annoying to other Universes? I mean come on, catch a Jiren Blast and you might get real get powered up from that.

    7. If your not going to bring back Cell, at least give us a REAL Cell-like fighter from U3. y'know, because Cell was a great villain and as long as your nostalgia tripping people, you might as well give U3 a legit Cell-like fighter rather than the brief joke that was "The Preecho".

    8. go really strange, just have a fighter who is a nothing but a solid grey sphere of nanorobots that floats around, and does nanorobotic tricks to defeat people. show how terrifying and flexible that can truly be.

    9. A pure psychic technique user please? I mean think about in Dragon Ball, we have both telepathy and telekinesis as demonstrable powers that people can do, so why a U3 fighter whose power of the mind and intellect is more literal by simply exploiting both powers to their fullest extent? now add in infinity engine.

    10. the only fighter from U3 that really makes sense and be as competent as they should be is Maji Kayo, with his liquid body and whatnot. again, why don't have more of this? we could have so many fighters that force you to think outside the box to defeat them here.

    U3 could've been the universe full of powerful puzzle fighters almost as terrifying at U11 or in some cases even more so, but apparently they can't be bothered to think about it and just slapped in a few old sci-fi parodies. ugh.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    Might as well ask how it is that a single planet is the home of pretty much all of an entire universe's strongest fighters. "They all inspired each other to greater efforts at improvement" only goes so far.
    I would say it's less "They inspired each other to greater heights" and more that they were constantly thrown into situations that were well over their heads and forced them to reach greater heights, combined with having a saiyan that had lost his malevolence and instead became a "pure-hearted" person that wanted to defend his loved ones(and later just wanted to fight ever increasingly powerful opponents). That's why Earth houses most of the universes most powerful fighters.

    If Raditz had never shown up, Earth would have gone on it's merry way, and Goku would have just been content to train moderately to stay ahead of Piccolo, probably never even reaching a PL of 5,000, until Frieza's army showed up and annihilated the entire planet and sold it to the highest bidder(because by then it would have been to late for Goku to train up to become powerful enough, he'd have been overwhelmed by the sheer #'s of soldiers thrown at him combined with the handful of elites that would have been sent with them).

    It was basically just circumstances/bad luck/good luck(depending on how you wanted to look at it I guess) that led to this situation. After Frieza, Goku might never have gone beyond Super Saiyan, but Gero hated Goku so much that he designed insanely powerful androids to wipe him, which led to Trunks coming back, etc etc etc. There was always another, more powerful foe on the horizon that had to be trained for and fought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I don't know

    but all those justifications? "U7 is advancement universe" "Reed Richards better than entire Nikola Tesla verse" all are comic book explanations. lets ignore that for a moment and actually apply sense and logic to this (A dangerous thing to do with Toriyama works indeed):

    1. an entire universe of Nikolas Tesla's would kick a single Reed Richards ass any day, every day of the week in technology. why? because technology isn't actually about how ingenious you are. its about: the resources you have available, the techniques to process those resources available, and how long your willing to work hard to make a design work and improve upon it until it does. trillions upon trillions of Teslas perspiring would outbuild and outdesign a single Reed-Richards inspired, simply because they'd constantly be checking each others work, improving upon each others designs, correcting each others mistakes, testing out more things with more people available, and generally just having a ridiculous amount of people to find out knowledge all at the same time. this combined with the fact that the have planets of machinery to help mass-produce anything and everything.....well you get the picture. a single guy no matter genius, no matter how devoted to advancement, has no hope of competing with an entire civilization.

    2. even if U3 was doing remote controlled robots, this is honestly a bad way to do those remote controls. Why haven't they've been implanted in your brain? why are they silly combining mecha at all? where are the nanorobotics that make them regenerate, or turn into clouds at will so that you can't knock them off easily, why is the best Catoplesa's power armor can do is little boosts (yes I know Kamen Rider parody, don't care) when it could y'know, do so much more? like a grappling feature to keep from falling the off ring? or a jetpack? in fact, why isn't the whole team implanted with jet packs? they are non-ki based flight, and it count since its something implanted into them and not using a separate object.

    3. they missed a great opportunity to simply find a U3 alien thats like made of plasma, put them in a power suit then reveal that he is made of plasma when he takes it off....and he is like this humanoid living star that is constantly generating star levels of heat around him so he needs to wear a power suit just to interact with ordinary civilization, so even stepping close at all is dangerous, the ground itself heats up and makes it harder to focus on even getting near him and even if you could, he is made of plasma, what are you going to do about that? how do you get around that? most likely you don't, because this plasma fighter would be literally too hot to handle, give him competent fighting capabilities and he would be a threat nearly as difficult and terrifying as Jiren, simply because he is made of plasma. it would be a good example of U3 being able to stack the deck like any good smart person would.

    4. remote control nothing, with the advanced tech they SHOULD have, they could make these robots a hive mind with little effort. just like, go full borg on the Tournament of Power, fighting one of them and all the fighters on U3 learn from it, have them rapidly adapt and change tactics as new information is revealed, no need for a central fighter that controls the rest, they are just one big being with ten bodies that learns incredibly fast from all the bodies that is observing the fighters its in and around.

    5. infinity engines should honestly be old news to U3. they should be like "I recognize your engine right away, those are clearly primitive models, look at the upgrades WE have!" making Androids 17 and 18 have to fight a foe that is just as tireless as them and therefore have to ether die or fly when they encounter someone that they can't just wait out, one who has additional upgrades to make it even harder. wouldn't THAT be an awesome fight to see!? I mean c'mon, admit it, wasted opportunity there.

    6. bring back energy drain hands? No? even though it'd be very advantageous and annoying to other Universes? I mean come on, catch a Jiren Blast and you might get real get powered up from that.

    7. If your not going to bring back Cell, at least give us a REAL Cell-like fighter from U3. y'know, because Cell was a great villain and as long as your nostalgia tripping people, you might as well give U3 a legit Cell-like fighter rather than the brief joke that was "The Preecho".

    8. go really strange, just have a fighter who is a nothing but a solid grey sphere of nanorobots that floats around, and does nanorobotic tricks to defeat people. show how terrifying and flexible that can truly be.

    9. A pure psychic technique user please? I mean think about in Dragon Ball, we have both telepathy and telekinesis as demonstrable powers that people can do, so why a U3 fighter whose power of the mind and intellect is more literal by simply exploiting both powers to their fullest extent? now add in infinity engine.

    10. the only fighter from U3 that really makes sense and be as competent as they should be is Maji Kayo, with his liquid body and whatnot. again, why don't have more of this? we could have so many fighters that force you to think outside the box to defeat them here.

    U3 could've been the universe full of powerful puzzle fighters almost as terrifying at U11 or in some cases even more so, but apparently they can't be bothered to think about it and just slapped in a few old sci-fi parodies. ugh.


    I do like your ideas and explanation, but the easy answer to all of that is: They didn't face any struggles, so why would they constantly strive to be better? It seems as though U3 is almost all robotic based, which means every flesh-based civilization was either conquered, or willingly turned into robots/androids. If there is no all-powerful foe, there is no real drive for advancement. And we have real world examples to back this up, just look at technology and how it zooms forward in times of war so much faster than times of peace. When there is a real need is when things happen, otherwise stuff just progresses at a slower pace, and I would imagine that pace would be virtually crippled in a universe where there appears to be literally no antagonists, no-one to rally everyone against. Absolute peace would breed absolute stagnation.

    Heck, I'd be willing to bet that the whole "combine the parts into a more powerful mecha" bit happened in the time after the tournament was announced. There was likely a sudden drive forward in their technology, but it's obviously not enough given how small of a time-frame they had to prepare. If it had been a year? Realistically we'd see everything you mentioned and probably things you didn't from U3, and they'd be the primary threat against U7.
    Last edited by Starwulf; 2017-12-19 at 01:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starwulf View Post
    I would say it's less "They inspired each other to greater heights" and more that they were constantly thrown into situations that were well over their heads and forced them to reach greater heights, combined with having a saiyan that had lost his malevolence and instead became a "pure-hearted" person that wanted to defend his loved ones(and later just wanted to fight ever increasingly powerful opponents). That's why Earth houses most of the universes most powerful fighters.

    If Raditz had never shown up, Earth would have gone on it's merry way, and Goku would have just been content to train moderately to stay ahead of Piccolo, probably never even reaching a PL of 5,000, until Frieza's army showed up and annihilated the entire planet and sold it to the highest bidder(because by then it would have been to late for Goku to train up to become powerful enough, he'd have been overwhelmed by the sheer #'s of soldiers thrown at him combined with the handful of elites that would have been sent with them).

    It was basically just circumstances/bad luck/good luck(depending on how you wanted to look at it I guess) that led to this situation. After Frieza, Goku might never have gone beyond Super Saiyan, but Gero hated Goku so much that he designed insanely powerful androids to wipe him, which led to Trunks coming back, etc etc etc. There was always another, more powerful foe on the horizon that had to be trained for and fought.

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    I do like your ideas and explanation, but the easy answer to all of that is: They didn't face any struggles, so why would they constantly strive to be better? It seems as though U3 is almost all robotic based, which means every flesh-based civilization was either conquered, or willingly turned into robots/androids. If there is no all-powerful foe, there is no real drive for advancement. And we have real world examples to back this up, just look at technology and how it zooms forward in times of war so much faster than times of peace. When there is a real need is when things happen, otherwise stuff just progresses at a slower pace, and I would imagine that pace would be virtually crippled in a universe where there appears to be literally no antagonists, no-one to rally everyone against. Absolute peace would breed absolute stagnation.

    Heck, I'd be willing to bet that the whole "combine the parts into a more powerful mecha" bit happened in the time after the tournament was announced. There was likely a sudden drive forward in their technology, but it's obviously not enough given how small of a time-frame they had to prepare. If it had been a year? Realistically we'd see everything you mentioned and probably things you didn't from U3, and they'd be the primary threat against U7.
    We have no proof they didn't struggle, only that there is a lot of BS going on. A civilization that advanced should of straight up have magic science in their favor, unless the reason why they are there is because they stagnated. In fact, every universe in this stagnated in some shape or form. That would make sense, cause otherwise the rules are stupid

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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    We have no proof they didn't struggle, only that there is a lot of BS going on. A civilization that advanced should of straight up have magic science in their favor, unless the reason why they are there is because they stagnated. In fact, every universe in this stagnated in some shape or form. That would make sense, cause otherwise the rules are stupid
    They may have struggled in the past, to get where they are, but it doesn't seem like they haven't since. It does appear that they are all robots of one form or another, which would imply that biological-based life-forms have been annihilated or assimilated. Which would also imply there is now a lasting peace, and from there I refer you back to my assertion that Absolute Peace brings about Absolute Stagnation. If their current level of tech was enough to overcome the obstacles in their path to total peace, then they were likely just fine with staying there. If everything can be controlled by the GoD just by sending out mental commands, then there can be no villains, no-one to try to cause trouble, so why go any further?
    Last edited by Starwulf; 2017-12-19 at 06:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    We have no proof they didn't struggle, only that there is a lot of BS going on. A civilization that advanced should of straight up have magic science in their favor, unless the reason why they are there is because they stagnated. In fact, every universe in this stagnated in some shape or form. That would make sense, cause otherwise the rules are stupid
    Hm, thats a theory, but is it true?

    U7: clearly overcame a lot of challenges, but while it has not stagnated, it did certainly decay from so many planets being destroyed, even as a few got strong.

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    U2: Maybe. Ribrianne while seemingly cutesy is also a strong fighter that did last halfway through the tournament, maybe not as much as other Universes, this universe probably has faced some challenges along the way given that they are not unfamiliar with the concept of villainy to be fought, but maybe has stagnated a little given that they constantly hold themselves to their ideology of love and their greatest champion's love is shallow. problem is, they were the third universe to be erased, so probably some stagnation. they are a very dogmatic about it.

    U3: Science is not without its challenges. new technology brings war, new ways of death and so on. its very possible that they survived for so long because they successfully figured their way out of every problem until they advanced so much that all thats left is intellectual problems to solve, and leave most of the work to robots? but given that they are third last Universe surviving, they gotta be competent and progressing on some level

    U4: The conspiracy universe, this ones tricky. fourth last Universe surviving. That means they're middle of the road. A universe full of conspiracies and lies is probably full of lots of struggles, but not obvious ones. You have to be very distrustful and paranoid to make it there, so it does encourage awareness and keeping yourself on edge, but also encourages you to keep your head down out of fear starting something, which encourages some stagnation through everyone being too afraid to act until someone else does, as well as not progressing technology all that much given everyone would be obsessed with keeping secrets....you can see this plain and clear with how U4 has magic motifs while U3 has science motifs. U4 didn't survive as long as U3, because U4 doesn't share information, and thus keeps everything occult and hidden.

    U6: Now this is interesting, because U6 is the most similar to U7, but was the fourth to be erased, before U3 and U4, despite clearly being more powerful, more driven, more diverse and better built as a team, in fact there was a point where U6 was in the lead! so what went wrong? U6 is called the Challenger Universe. But thing is, Hit lacked a challenge, the U6 saiyans all seem peaceful, Frost given his good PR skills never got as competent as Freeza in an outright fight, so.....its ironically because of their competence that they failed. they DID stagnate....but not enough to be obvious. contact with U7 made them fired up, made them challenge themselves like never before and....Frost and Kefla and the Namekians got taken out by their more experienced counterparts, Hit was taken out by Jiren, Cabba was defeated by Freeza who had already had much experience beating up guys like Vegeta, basically U6 succumbed to being newcomers going up against more experienced opponents. they were overconfident.

    U9: Now here is where the stagnation theory really breaks down. U9? is the worst Universe, first to be erased. considering what U7 went through, it should be filled with tons of cataclysms and problems and overcame a lot to survive, and the Trio De Dangers said that they had to stick together to survive the cruel universe. that doesn't sound like a stagnate universe, that sounds like the ideal universe to be prepared to survive anything. yet it didn't, went out first, easily in fact because it rushed U7.
    So whats wrong with U9 that made it so easily defeated?

    U10: Judging by how Gowasu is so unsure and Ruumshi is so lazy, yeah, its very likely that this universe just plain stagnated. Gowasu seemed to learn nothing from his Zamasu debacle, so its quite clear that he and Ruumshi just let things happen and thus none of U10 did anything of note as a result, thus getting erased because a lack of focus or teamwork or anything.

    U11: given that people like the Pride Troopers are necessary to villains in check, I'd say their universe overcomes a lot of challenges, so this is at least consistent with that, considering the existence of Jiren.


    And then there is the four Universes, the ones that are not participating:
    We don't get any special characteristics about them. only titles like "Balanced" "Ultimate" "Supreme" and so on. which is strange. if we're really going with Stagnation theory, would not the four Universes that aren't participating be the most stagnant? After all, their universes are so well managed, what challenges does anyone have to face if thats true? Their standards of living must be much higher than U3, and it has cyborgs and machine-planets and whatnot. so if U3 is stagnant, then the non-participant ones must be more so. yet non-stagnation means conflict and destruction. and conflict leads to lowering the Mortal Level, much like in U7.

    .......So, getting mixed signals here. U9 didn't survive despite having it worse than U7 and shouldn't be stagnant at all, yet the more good you have it, the more stagnant you should be because you aren't being challenged like with U6? Yet U11 is constantly challenged every day by villainy, and has the highest mortal level of the universes participating. U7 has the second lowest Mortal level yet outlasted tons of others with higher ones. U6 had it better than U7, but didn't last as long, even though all its conditions should be better. U10 was more stagnant then U9 yet lasted longer. So what gives? be competent but not TOO competent? whaaaaaa?

    I feel like we're missing something here. something important. looking at it the wrong way. or we're not getting the full picture, because something is clearly wrong with the one we're being presented.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    At this point, it seems increasingly likely all the universes will be just mashed into Original!Universe. Frieza will probably make the play for the wish, eliminating Goku and Jiren, and then he'll get tricked by remaining cast.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Eh, random speculation can be fun. Here are some of my off-the-wall predictions for how things will go:

    - Goku does master Ultra Instinct, but even that isn't enough to beat Jiren. He will then do the Fusion Dance with either Gohan or Vegeta and finally defeat Jiren.
    - Goku loses and is thrown out the ring, but Freeza then steps up and shows HE's learned Ultra Instinct just from observing Goku's fights, and he's the one who beats Jiren.
    - None of the universes were really erased! That was all just a ploy to get the gods off their asses and be more involved with the mortals of their universes.*

    * I REALLY hope they don't go this route. It would be a huge cop-out!

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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Troubadour View Post
    Eh, random speculation can be fun. Here are some of my off-the-wall predictions for how things will go:

    - Goku does master Ultra Instinct, but even that isn't enough to beat Jiren. He will then do the Fusion Dance with either Gohan or Vegeta and finally defeat Jiren.
    - Goku loses and is thrown out the ring, but Freeza then steps up and shows HE's learned Ultra Instinct just from observing Goku's fights, and he's the one who beats Jiren.
    - None of the universes were really erased! That was all just a ploy to get the gods off their asses and be more involved with the mortals of their universes.*

    * I REALLY hope they don't go this route. It would be a huge cop-out!
    or four, this was a lesson to teach ZENO to be a better ruler who doesn't go around blowing up Universes for little to no reason. because he really enjoys the tournament, but we're already seeing the signs that with less universes.....means less action....means more future boredom, and Zen-Oh doesn't like boredom. which means he will bring them back, because of his own realization that any tournament after this without bringing them back wouldn't be nearly as great, with only five universes.

    and the Gods seem pretty involved in many of their Universes. the ones who aren't seem to be U10 and U7.

    or it ends in a double knockout for Goku and Jiren and Freeza kicks them both out without needing to go Ultra Instinct.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Hm, thats a theory, but is it true?

    U7: clearly overcame a lot of challenges, but while it has not stagnated, it did certainly decay from so many planets being destroyed, even as a few got strong.

    The other seven:
    Spoiler: Universe analysis
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    U2: Maybe. Ribrianne while seemingly cutesy is also a strong fighter that did last halfway through the tournament, maybe not as much as other Universes, this universe probably has faced some challenges along the way given that they are not unfamiliar with the concept of villainy to be fought, but maybe has stagnated a little given that they constantly hold themselves to their ideology of love and their greatest champion's love is shallow. problem is, they were the third universe to be erased, so probably some stagnation. they are a very dogmatic about it.

    U3: Science is not without its challenges. new technology brings war, new ways of death and so on. its very possible that they survived for so long because they successfully figured their way out of every problem until they advanced so much that all thats left is intellectual problems to solve, and leave most of the work to robots? but given that they are third last Universe surviving, they gotta be competent and progressing on some level

    U4: The conspiracy universe, this ones tricky. fourth last Universe surviving. That means they're middle of the road. A universe full of conspiracies and lies is probably full of lots of struggles, but not obvious ones. You have to be very distrustful and paranoid to make it there, so it does encourage awareness and keeping yourself on edge, but also encourages you to keep your head down out of fear starting something, which encourages some stagnation through everyone being too afraid to act until someone else does, as well as not progressing technology all that much given everyone would be obsessed with keeping secrets....you can see this plain and clear with how U4 has magic motifs while U3 has science motifs. U4 didn't survive as long as U3, because U4 doesn't share information, and thus keeps everything occult and hidden.

    U6: Now this is interesting, because U6 is the most similar to U7, but was the fourth to be erased, before U3 and U4, despite clearly being more powerful, more driven, more diverse and better built as a team, in fact there was a point where U6 was in the lead! so what went wrong? U6 is called the Challenger Universe. But thing is, Hit lacked a challenge, the U6 saiyans all seem peaceful, Frost given his good PR skills never got as competent as Freeza in an outright fight, so.....its ironically because of their competence that they failed. they DID stagnate....but not enough to be obvious. contact with U7 made them fired up, made them challenge themselves like never before and....Frost and Kefla and the Namekians got taken out by their more experienced counterparts, Hit was taken out by Jiren, Cabba was defeated by Freeza who had already had much experience beating up guys like Vegeta, basically U6 succumbed to being newcomers going up against more experienced opponents. they were overconfident.

    U9: Now here is where the stagnation theory really breaks down. U9? is the worst Universe, first to be erased. considering what U7 went through, it should be filled with tons of cataclysms and problems and overcame a lot to survive, and the Trio De Dangers said that they had to stick together to survive the cruel universe. that doesn't sound like a stagnate universe, that sounds like the ideal universe to be prepared to survive anything. yet it didn't, went out first, easily in fact because it rushed U7.
    So whats wrong with U9 that made it so easily defeated?

    U10: Judging by how Gowasu is so unsure and Ruumshi is so lazy, yeah, its very likely that this universe just plain stagnated. Gowasu seemed to learn nothing from his Zamasu debacle, so its quite clear that he and Ruumshi just let things happen and thus none of U10 did anything of note as a result, thus getting erased because a lack of focus or teamwork or anything.

    U11: given that people like the Pride Troopers are necessary to villains in check, I'd say their universe overcomes a lot of challenges, so this is at least consistent with that, considering the existence of Jiren.


    And then there is the four Universes, the ones that are not participating:
    We don't get any special characteristics about them. only titles like "Balanced" "Ultimate" "Supreme" and so on. which is strange. if we're really going with Stagnation theory, would not the four Universes that aren't participating be the most stagnant? After all, their universes are so well managed, what challenges does anyone have to face if thats true? Their standards of living must be much higher than U3, and it has cyborgs and machine-planets and whatnot. so if U3 is stagnant, then the non-participant ones must be more so. yet non-stagnation means conflict and destruction. and conflict leads to lowering the Mortal Level, much like in U7.

    .......So, getting mixed signals here. U9 didn't survive despite having it worse than U7 and shouldn't be stagnant at all, yet the more good you have it, the more stagnant you should be because you aren't being challenged like with U6? Yet U11 is constantly challenged every day by villainy, and has the highest mortal level of the universes participating. U7 has the second lowest Mortal level yet outlasted tons of others with higher ones. U6 had it better than U7, but didn't last as long, even though all its conditions should be better. U10 was more stagnant then U9 yet lasted longer. So what gives? be competent but not TOO competent? whaaaaaa?

    I feel like we're missing something here. something important. looking at it the wrong way. or we're not getting the full picture, because something is clearly wrong with the one we're being presented.
    Stagnation doesn't have to just mean combat prowess or anything to do with conflict. Just lack of growth can be enough. U7 isn't rushing for enlightenment, hell even after meeting Beerus and the future Trunks Arc Goku settled into just living and training. Who else in that universe is trying to better it? Bulma is the only one we see on screen, but she's notorious for being sidetracked due to her husband and friend's antics.No I think that they all just didn't strive to better enlighten themselves which landed them in this tourney. Think about it.
    Pride Troopers are powerful but what are they doing besides fighting monsters? I wouldn't be surprised that Jiren is the sole reason they aren't the lowest.
    You can look at each and every universe fighting and surmise that in some shape or form there is stagnation to the point that it's a concern. Conflict cant be the sole trigger cause there are universes with more than u7 but with a higher mortal rating. Power doesnt mean anything, since u7 went in with a lower rating then almost everyone and is shaping up to win this tourney, so it cant have much to do with the rating either. Thats why i said the only thing that makes sense is stagnation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Hm, thats a theory, but is it true?

    U7: clearly overcame a lot of challenges, but while it has not stagnated, it did certainly decay from so many planets being destroyed, even as a few got strong.

    The other seven:
    Spoiler: Universe analysis
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    U2: Maybe. Ribrianne while seemingly cutesy is also a strong fighter that did last halfway through the tournament, maybe not as much as other Universes, this universe probably has faced some challenges along the way given that they are not unfamiliar with the concept of villainy to be fought, but maybe has stagnated a little given that they constantly hold themselves to their ideology of love and their greatest champion's love is shallow. problem is, they were the third universe to be erased, so probably some stagnation. they are a very dogmatic about it.

    U3: Science is not without its challenges. new technology brings war, new ways of death and so on. its very possible that they survived for so long because they successfully figured their way out of every problem until they advanced so much that all thats left is intellectual problems to solve, and leave most of the work to robots? but given that they are third last Universe surviving, they gotta be competent and progressing on some level

    U4: The conspiracy universe, this ones tricky. fourth last Universe surviving. That means they're middle of the road. A universe full of conspiracies and lies is probably full of lots of struggles, but not obvious ones. You have to be very distrustful and paranoid to make it there, so it does encourage awareness and keeping yourself on edge, but also encourages you to keep your head down out of fear starting something, which encourages some stagnation through everyone being too afraid to act until someone else does, as well as not progressing technology all that much given everyone would be obsessed with keeping secrets....you can see this plain and clear with how U4 has magic motifs while U3 has science motifs. U4 didn't survive as long as U3, because U4 doesn't share information, and thus keeps everything occult and hidden.

    U6: Now this is interesting, because U6 is the most similar to U7, but was the fourth to be erased, before U3 and U4, despite clearly being more powerful, more driven, more diverse and better built as a team, in fact there was a point where U6 was in the lead! so what went wrong? U6 is called the Challenger Universe. But thing is, Hit lacked a challenge, the U6 saiyans all seem peaceful, Frost given his good PR skills never got as competent as Freeza in an outright fight, so.....its ironically because of their competence that they failed. they DID stagnate....but not enough to be obvious. contact with U7 made them fired up, made them challenge themselves like never before and....Frost and Kefla and the Namekians got taken out by their more experienced counterparts, Hit was taken out by Jiren, Cabba was defeated by Freeza who had already had much experience beating up guys like Vegeta, basically U6 succumbed to being newcomers going up against more experienced opponents. they were overconfident.

    U9: Now here is where the stagnation theory really breaks down. U9? is the worst Universe, first to be erased. considering what U7 went through, it should be filled with tons of cataclysms and problems and overcame a lot to survive, and the Trio De Dangers said that they had to stick together to survive the cruel universe. that doesn't sound like a stagnate universe, that sounds like the ideal universe to be prepared to survive anything. yet it didn't, went out first, easily in fact because it rushed U7.
    So whats wrong with U9 that made it so easily defeated?

    U10: Judging by how Gowasu is so unsure and Ruumshi is so lazy, yeah, its very likely that this universe just plain stagnated. Gowasu seemed to learn nothing from his Zamasu debacle, so its quite clear that he and Ruumshi just let things happen and thus none of U10 did anything of note as a result, thus getting erased because a lack of focus or teamwork or anything.

    U11: given that people like the Pride Troopers are necessary to villains in check, I'd say their universe overcomes a lot of challenges, so this is at least consistent with that, considering the existence of Jiren.


    And then there is the four Universes, the ones that are not participating:
    We don't get any special characteristics about them. only titles like "Balanced" "Ultimate" "Supreme" and so on. which is strange. if we're really going with Stagnation theory, would not the four Universes that aren't participating be the most stagnant? After all, their universes are so well managed, what challenges does anyone have to face if thats true? Their standards of living must be much higher than U3, and it has cyborgs and machine-planets and whatnot. so if U3 is stagnant, then the non-participant ones must be more so. yet non-stagnation means conflict and destruction. and conflict leads to lowering the Mortal Level, much like in U7.

    .......So, getting mixed signals here. U9 didn't survive despite having it worse than U7 and shouldn't be stagnant at all, yet the more good you have it, the more stagnant you should be because you aren't being challenged like with U6? Yet U11 is constantly challenged every day by villainy, and has the highest mortal level of the universes participating. U7 has the second lowest Mortal level yet outlasted tons of others with higher ones. U6 had it better than U7, but didn't last as long, even though all its conditions should be better. U10 was more stagnant then U9 yet lasted longer. So what gives? be competent but not TOO competent? whaaaaaa?

    I feel like we're missing something here. something important. looking at it the wrong way. or we're not getting the full picture, because something is clearly wrong with the one we're being presented.
    It sounds like your explanation fits all the universes reasonably well except for U9. The question then mecomes, can we "certian point of view" U9 to fit your model?
    U9 is the counterpart of U4, the conspiriacyverse. They are also, literally, (despite my own preference in that regard) a universe of "just animals". And their top 3 fighters are notable for perfecting teamwork and trust, seemingly anthama to the theme of that universe, while several of the other fighters LOST because a failure of teamwork, because someone got greedy when they saw an opportunity and got hit by friendly fire.

    And when the universal tournement was made public in U9? Mobs, panic, attempting to flee the universe. Flight or fight.

    So I'd say U9 is a "Dog eat dog" conflict universe, stagnant in it's anarchy. You have individually strong fighters, for whom taking down the top dog is how you get ahead. U7 was thought of as the top dog (I dont think anyone from U9 got a Jiren stare) and U9 went all in, because that's how their universe works.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Troubadour View Post
    Eh, random speculation can be fun. Here are some of my off-the-wall predictions for how things will go:

    - Goku does master Ultra Instinct, but even that isn't enough to beat Jiren. He will then do the Fusion Dance with either Gohan or Vegeta and finally defeat Jiren.
    - Goku loses and is thrown out the ring, but Freeza then steps up and shows HE's learned Ultra Instinct just from observing Goku's fights, and he's the one who beats Jiren.
    - None of the universes were really erased! That was all just a ploy to get the gods off their asses and be more involved with the mortals of their universes.*

    * I REALLY hope they don't go this route. It would be a huge cop-out!
    Goku has the defensive side of ultra instinct- Given how goku and vegeta mirror one another, what if Vegeta mastered OFFESNIVE ultra instinct? Goes down to the first good hit, but glass cannons his way through his opponents.

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    Crack prediction:

    Somehow, in some way, all the universes will be restored or at least the inhabitants brought back. In my theory, it doesn't matter how.

    Goku will win...And use his wish on the Super Dragon Balls to bring back King Kai. Since King Kai has from the beginning of Super wanted to be wished back but Goku keeps forgetting or something else comes up.

    Bonus points, if someone points out that using the Super Dragon Balls to bring back somebody who kept their body and lives in Otherworld(and thus, there's no fucntional differance between them being dead or alive) is the equivlenet of using the regular Dragon Balls to fix a minor head cold.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Hey, at least it would be better than Oolong's wish from the beginning of Dragon Ball.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    or it ends in a double knockout for Goku and Jiren and Freeza kicks them both out without needing to go Ultra Instinct.
    I did say "off-the-wall". Yours needs to be crazier. :-)

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    I don't like the idea of Vegeta getting an offensive version of UI. He's always been more of a counter-puncher than a glass cannon type fighter. Thematically, his style would fit better with Goku's current version of UI.

    From a meta perspective though, it would allow Vegeta to ragdoll lesser enemies while still being completely useless against the primary antagonists since he would go down in one hit. So it would be perfect for him.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Spoiler: Episode 121
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    behold, Anilaza, a warrior even bigger than the last one! its U3's last hope! will it be awesome enough to knock out a SINGLE FIGHTER from U7? cause thats the highest my hopes are getting.

    ok, so you knocked aside a big bang attack from a mere Super Saiyan Vegeta, great, now do the same with SS Blue and I'll have hope of you being relevant, Anilaza.

    for once U7 is teaming up. wow, thats new, and it doesn't speak of their odds.

    ANILAZA CAN PORTAL PUNCH!? TORIYAMAAAAA!!! HAVE YOU BEEN READING MY MIND AGAIN!?

    oh god, no, don't give 18 and Krillin Cell flashbacks.......

    Ok 18 has dropped out due to Anilaza, now he is a threat.

    and now Anilaza has wings. ok, this is getting into more what I'd think U3 would be up to.

    and so 17 defeat Anilaza in the last moments and U3 is erased, with the little god of destruction coming out of his power suit!? aaaaaagh, and here I thought he was a robot god of Destruction.

    uh no, led by GOHAN and TOPPO, get your facts straight narrator.

    nine minutes remain. or nine episodes, probably.

    Tournament Status:
    U7: 5/10
    U11: 3/10
    U3: Erased.
    U4: Erased
    U2: Erased.
    U6: Erased.
    U10: Erased.
    U9: Erased.
    Total: 8 fighters remaining.

    So yeah, U3 can at least claim to have made a fighter that took all five of U7's heavy hitters to take out and even then, only because one of them had an instinct to aim for the forehead and do something crazy. thats a claim to power no one else got.

    So yeah, the tactical situation is basically: Goku is going to fight Jiren. which two people are going to fight Toppo, and which two are going to fight Dyspo?

    Gohan is totally going to fight Toppo. they are the best foils for one another.

    Freeza will fight Toppo, as he is evil and thus he and Gohan will have a strange team up to fight Toppo, the hero and villain against another hero.

    leaving Vegeta and 17 to fight Dyspo. Vegeta and Dyspo are both a bit cocky and 17 always had a confident streak.

    U11 needs to take out at least three people to win, but will probably be going for a full wipe of U7.

    Preview:
    No wait, Vegeta is challenging Jiren. GOD-RAMIT VEGETA NOT AGAIN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH-

    so yeah, Vegeta is going to pull a classic Vegeta and challenge the strongest in his pride. I'm not surprised Vegeta, but I am disappointed.
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    Well congrats U3, you managed to get everyone left on U7 to team up to beat you. Was it nessecary? Maybe, was it a statement given that no one other than Jiren (and maybe Kefla if she hadn't gone and trigger UI Goku) can claim, and against him it probably wouldn't matter. Also I'd be more upset about Freiza kicking Goku back onto the arena, if he wasn't, you know, knocking him back onto the arena. Now if Goku were only to be more consistent with his use of INSTANT TRANSMISSION... seriously so many problems with the on again off again usage of that ability. And 18 seems to think her brother 17 is the better fighter of the two... *sigh*. Then again 17 seems to have yet again provided critical tactical insight. And I'm not going to comment on the stupidity of Vegeta taking on Jiren until we get the full story. For all we know it could be buying time for the others to eliminate Toppo and Dypso so that it can be a full force press against Jiren (again not that it would likely help).
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Spoiler: Not what you think
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    watch the previews. It's looking like Goku got a zenkai boost (even though vegeta said way back they cant) cause he's trolling Jiren. Worse,or better, Vegeta tagged Jiren and even through out an attack that Jiren couldn't avoid. This episode was good for the art on 17 near the end, but next week people will be flipping their collective ****s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Spoiler: Not what you think
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    watch the previews. It's looking like Goku got a zenkai boost (even though vegeta said way back they cant) cause he's trolling Jiren. Worse,or better, Vegeta tagged Jiren and even through out an attack that Jiren couldn't avoid. This episode was good for the art on 17 near the end, but next week people will be flipping their collective ****s.
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    Vegeta get Worfed again.

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    Spoiler: Preview for next week
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    I don't know, it almost seems as though Vegeta is close to going UI on the offense side(like someone else predicted might happen). The very fact that he both landed a strong looking blow against Jiren, and Jiren's slightly worried look(or at least, look of astonishment at Vegeta's pwoer) at the massive energy blast Vegeta is throwing at him almost hints at it. He might not "quite" make it, I imagine he'll get knocked out before it can fully happen, but I can see where in a few episodes after the tournament ends that he'll achieve it.

    As for this weeks episode itself, I started freaking out when it looked like 17 was getting knocked out. Woke my wife up with my "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO" shout, lol. I was a bit saddened that 18 had to go out to save him, but better her than him.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Well, that last-second reveal for U3 was completely unneeded. Not sure why they'd even add it.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Btw can we finally agree that 17 is at near SSgod level?

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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Btw can we finally agree that 17 is at near SSgod level?
    Wasn't that proven when he fought even with SSB Goku with it explicitly stated that 17 was nowhere near full power?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Wasn't that proven when he fought even with SSB Goku with it explicitly stated that 17 was nowhere near full power?
    People were still denying it because 17 said Goku was holding back, even though Goku said that 17 was holding back as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Btw can we finally agree that 17 is at near SSgod level?
    Honestly, at this point... I think EVERYONE is at "near SSGod level"...

    Well, except maybe for Tien, since he's the new Yamcha... And perhaps Muten Roshi as well, if there's any scrap of consistency left in Toriyama... Or whoever is writing the show these days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    People were still denying it because 17 said Goku was holding back, even though Goku said that 17 was holding back as well.
    That makes perfect sense though. I can have a sparring match with Tyson where we're both holding back. It doesn't mean he wouldn't stomp me if we both go all out.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    That makes perfect sense though. I can have a sparring match with Tyson where we're both holding back. It doesn't mean he wouldn't stomp me if we both go all out.
    Yeah, but if Tyson had half a dozen super modes and he was using one of the strongest ones he had, you can't honestly think he'd be holding back enough that somebody who wasn't on the same level had a chance.

    I mean, this was partially a way to test if 17 was a good fit for the Tournament so Goku can't have been holding back that much--and even if it was purely to have fun he woulnd't have gone Blue if he didn't think 17 could handle Blue.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2017-12-25 at 07:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Yeah, but if Tyson had half a dozen super modes and he was using one of the strongest ones he had, you can't honestly think he'd be holding back enough that somebody who wasn't on the same level had a chance.

    I mean, this was partially a way to test if 17 was a good fit for the Tournament so Goku can't have been holding back that much--and even if it was purely to have fun he woulnd't have gone Blue if he didn't think 17 could handle Blue.
    He used the same mode against Krillin too. Do you think Krillin is SSB tier as well?

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