Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Lord Raziere]

He used the same mode against Krillin too. Do you think Krillin is SSB tier as well?

Yes.

There is no reason why he wouldn't be. What do you need, a big flashing sign that says "I AM BADASS"?

[Starwulf]

He used the same mode against Krillin too. Do you think Krillin is SSB tier as well?

Krillin went out like a Chump, whereas 17 has consistently fought tough opponents and won over and over this entire tournament, and went through a blast that was pushing back Frieza's/Vegeta's/Gohan's/Goku's combined blast. Yes, it was with a force-field, but no force-field is impenetrable, apply enough force and it will break, and if that wasn't enough to break his, it implies that his power-level is tremendously high.

Yes.

There is no reason why he wouldn't be.

I'll have to disagree on this one, Krillin is a wuss. He is nowhere near on the SSB level, it has not been that long since the Golden Frieza saga, and Krillin wasn't even a pretender in that fight, let alone a contender. He has not made up that much ground in the time since, not without spending decades inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, which he hasn't done. Even his wife looks down on his power, and until her fight with whats-her-name from the Love universe, she wasn't all that strong herself(it did appear she unlocked a significant power upgrade in that fight that at least put her within a football fields distance of 17's power).

[Rater202]

He used the same mode against Krillin too. Do you think Krillin is SSB tier as well?

Krillin seemingly got a major power up after he overcame his fears and insecurities in the Paradise plant mini-arc. Note the unique compressed battle aura with the distinct aura around his fists.

So yes, I'm going to say that whatever that was brought up within spitting distance of Blue Goku--especially considering that Krillin can fight Goku at all now when immediatly post Battle of Gods Goku was able to send a Krillin who had time to brace himself flying for what seemed to be hundreds of miles in base form while seemingly not trying that hard.

Krillin is at least strong enough now that Goku going Blue isn't massive overkill.

[chainer1216]

Or

Power levels are bull**** and people are as strong as the episode wants them to be.

Maybe theres some sort of "passion" mechanic that effects fighters full potential at the time of a fight.

Maybe MasakoX's theory that SSBs true power is precise ki control and when goku went blue against the likes of Krillin he was massively limiting his own ki output and abilities to more match Krillins, in order for theyre sparring actually mean something.

I mean no one is suggesting that 17 has been under performing, the guy is by far the MVP of this tournament, but for him, and the other Z Fighters to all, all of a sudden be able to spar with Berrus, from doing nothing but fight normies off an island for a couple years or just by overcoming their fear is...bad writing. Huge parts of this arc have been about proving that pure strength isnt everything and thats great.

17 is like the perfect package for this tournament, hes almost as smart as Gohan but far more cut throat and clear headed, he has the same upgrades as 18 but learned to push beyond them, he has far more experience actively protecting creatures so he has the teamwork instincts no one else but maybe Gohan has.

[Anteros]

Krillin seemingly got a major power up after he overcame his fears and insecurities in the Paradise plant mini-arc. Note the unique compressed battle aura with the distinct aura around his fists.

So yes, I'm going to say that whatever that was brought up within spitting distance of Blue Goku--especially considering that Krillin can fight Goku at all now when immediatly post Battle of Gods Goku was able to send a Krillin who had time to brace himself flying for what seemed to be hundreds of miles in base form while seemingly not trying that hard.

Krillin is at least strong enough now that Goku going Blue isn't massive overkill.

Well, personally I find it more likely that Goku is holding back like he always does than Krillin suddenly becoming trillions of times more powerful.

[Xihirli]

Btw can we finally agree that 17 is at near SSgod level?

Not sure. Didn't we think Ribrianne was SSgod level before she was tossed around by base Vegeta for awhile, then beaten by 18 after getting two transformations?
In the manga, Goku doesn't fight 17 is SSB. The power consistency is nonexistent.

Even after Krillin's power-up in the little story between him and Goku where he gained that new aura he never used in the ToP, he banned Super Saiyan when they sparred. When he powers up into that fist-aura he's still around base Goku level.
Weaker characters are able to triumph in beam struggles with stronger characters rather often by being just powerful enough to surprise the stronger character that didn't put enough into the attack. That happened with Beerus's Death Ball and Zamasu's Death Ball before when Goku shot through it and hit Zamasu. The narrative relies on our understanding that Goku was well out of his league in terms of power but he still managed to push back. The difference was, he was pretty much out of the fight until he got a bean while his opponent kept throwing down.
Fairing well against an opponent that doesn't want to hurt you happens pretty often, and it's useless for scaling.

And while I agree that the episode with 17 was clearly trying to show that he was god-tier, I've always been hesitant about including him on the list of god-tier fighters because I doubted the narrative would consistently show him there. He certainly has been punching high, but we won't know just how high until we pit him against the opponents we have adequate scaling for, like Dyspo (Low to mid-god tier depending on whether you figure out his gimmick) and Toppo (mid-god tier, roughly equal to SSB).
So we'll see very soon.

[Rater202]

Well, personally I find it more likely that Goku is holding back like he always does than Krillin suddenly becoming trillions of times more powerful.

Blue is Goku's strongest form, not counting Kaioken which is more of a technique.(and ignoring UI since he didn't have that yet.)

If Goku is blue, then logically he's not holding back that much.

If Goku was base the whole time, you might have a point, but...

[Lord Raziere]

Power levels are bull, but thats not an excuse to call people like Krillin weak.

the entire point of Power Levels being bull, is that someone "weak" can be much stronger than you think, and that someone just being arbitrarily stronger makes a grave mistake by underestimating them. PL being bull is to EMPOWER the weaker party, as it means PL being the sole measurement of whether you win or lose is false and thus a weaker person can pull something off to win despite being weaker.

To say that Krillin is weak because of PL is bull, is to pretty much go against that and say that PL IS right and that its not bull at all because someone stronger will always win every time.

[Delicious Taffy]

Oh wait, Jiren had an entire line in this episode, didn't he? I only just remembered, because he's so boring. Something about "Victory tastes good when you're Universe 7," right? At any rate, I'm very ready to see the final section of the Tournament.

[Anteros]

Power levels are bull, but thats not an excuse to call people like Krillin weak.

the entire point of Power Levels being bull, is that someone "weak" can be much stronger than you think, and that someone just being arbitrarily stronger makes a grave mistake by underestimating them. PL being bull is to EMPOWER the weaker party, as it means PL being the sole measurement of whether you win or lose is false and thus a weaker person can pull something off to win despite being weaker.

To say that Krillin is weak because of PL is bull, is to pretty much go against that and say that PL IS right and that its not bull at all because someone stronger will always win every time.

People always say this, but at the end of the day it almost never ends up being true. Look at every main antagonist in the series.

Vegeta? Goku needed a special technique that quadrupled his power level.
Frieza? Goku needed a powerup to surpass his power level to beat him.
Cell? Gohan unlocks his potential, get's a higher power level, and beats him.
Buu? They had to gather power from everyone on Earth and use a wish to make Goku strong enough to win.
Beerus? Had to unlock a new powerup to even compete.
Black? They call someone more powerful to beat him.
Jiren? Goku unlocks a new powerup.

The whole "everyone can compete" narrative among dragonball fans has never been true. Maybe that's the story Toriyama is trying to tell, but if so he's really bad at it. Every single fight comes down to the fighter with the higher power level overwhelming the other. No one ever wins through grit, determination, or clever thinking in Dragonball. The closest thing we ever get to tactics is "let's try to stall so I can gather more power."

Blue is Goku's strongest form, not counting Kaioken which is more of a technique.(and ignoring UI since he didn't have that yet.)

If Goku is blue, then logically he's not holding back that much.

If Goku was base the whole time, you might have a point, but...

Why? Blue is explicitly his form with the best Ki control, and he's testing how Krillin will do at the tournament. He has no reason whatsoever to go all out against Krillin.

I don't get why so many fans are dead set against the idea that maybe characters aren't always going all out and instead insist that power levels arbitrarily jump all over the place. Especially when these are characters that explicitly hold back in almost every single fight they're ever in.

[Lord Raziere]

People always say this, but at the end of the day it almost never ends up being true. Look at every main antagonist in the series.

Vegeta? Goku needed a special technique that quadrupled his power level.
Frieza? Goku needed a powerup to surpass his power level to beat him.
Cell? Gohan unlocks his potential, get's a higher power level, and beats him.
Buu? They had to gather power from everyone on Earth and use a wish to make Goku strong enough to win.
Beerus? Had to unlock a new powerup to even compete.
Black? They call someone more powerful to beat him.
Jiren? Goku unlocks a new powerup.

The whole "everyone can compete" narrative among dragonball fans has never been true. Maybe that's the story Toriyama is trying to tell, but if so he's really bad at it. Every single fight comes down to the fighter with the higher power level overwhelming the other. No one ever wins through grit, determination, or clever thinking in Dragonball. The closest thing we ever get to tactics is "let's try to stall so I can gather more power."

1. Which anyone can use if they're brave.
2 and 3. Yet both times the antagonist dismissed the person ever being able to beat them at all, just because their stable number is higher than their stable number when the numbers are dynamic, while Future Trunks unlocked a form that was incredibly powerful...but didn't matter because it was too slow to beat Cell.
4. and yet, individually, each person is weaker, Goku couldn't persuade Earth himself, couldn't do any of this himself, and Hercule was the one had make them do it. So in the end, Hercule technically saved the day through his charisma, and he is weaker than everyone. Goku even unlocked SS3 at the BEGINNING of the saga, and yet it fails to accomplish anything because it uses up so much energy in so short a time.
5. and yet despite having no power up, Beerus prevailed against someone with many and he himself was beaten by Whis, while Vegeta surpassed Goku by being able to damage Beerus without the ritual
6. Yet Future Trunks was the one who ultimately bisected Merged Zamasu in half rather than Vegito who was clearly more powerful, and Zamasu's surviving that was more due to a wish rather than being more powerful- he was hacking, and in response Zen-Oh hacked back. neither of which has anything to do with power.
7. Yet there is no confirmation it powers up. does Goku's PL actually get higher, or does his senses simply change to make him more skilled? in fact it downgrades his damage so, currently its not something without strings attached.

So yeah, I guess, they technically overwhelmed them all.....with burst power. all these forms and attacks simply output more energy in less time. sure a car is going to go faster if your going to put it into overdrive constantly, doesn't mean the other guy doesn't have a higher constant speed. burst power is weaker than constant power in the Dragon Ball universe, simply because you get tired much faster. Freeza adequately demonstrated that with his Golden form, as well as SS3 before him, as wella s Beerus beating Goku. the powers of burst and constant are different and not the same.

and you skipped over everything Hit has done.

Edit: Basically? appearances are deceiving, a PL measurement is just that, an appearance, just like how Buu has a silly appearance and everyone underestimated him....until he started destroying everyone. Or how Gohan had the appearance of some bookish nerd until he kicked Cell's ass, or how Goku came off as a orange hillbilly imbecile in pajamas until he beat freeza, or how Whis spent the entire Beerus movie just chowing down on food and acting as if he is subservient to Beerus.....then at the end he hit Beerus once to show how much more powerful he is than him, or how a big muscular form looks intimidating and powerful but really isn't, or how two Androids look like random teenagers but kicked the ass of two super saiyans, a namekian and bunch of humans. the entire point is that taking a PL at face value is bad.

[Lemmy]

Oh wait, Jiren had an entire line in this episode, didn't he? I only just remembered, because he's so boring. Something about "Victory tastes good when you're Universe 7," right? At any rate, I'm very ready to see the final section of the Tournament.

He's slightly more interesting in the manga... In the anime, I can't even remember he saying anything. I'm sure he did at some point, but I can't remember it for life of me...

[Rater202]

Why? Blue is explicitly his form with the best Ki control, and he's testing how Krillin will do at the tournament. He has no reason whatsoever to go all out against Krillin.

I don't get why so many fans are dead set against the idea that maybe characters aren't always going all out and instead insist that power levels arbitrarily jump all over the place. Especially when these are characters that explicitly hold back in almost every single fight they're ever in.

First: I did not say "going all out." I said "not holding back that much."
Two: Considering that they'll be fighting the best and strongest fighters in the other universes, "testing how Krillin will do at the tournement" is a reason to not hold back, not a reason to hold back a lot.
Three: Blue is not explicitly Goku's form with the best ki control. What Goku explains is that he can combine Kaioken with blue becuase, and I'm quoting the translation, "Super Saiya-jin Blue combines proper ki control with a calm mind." Goku has had proper ki control and a calm mind(enough to stay transformed indefinitly with literally no effort) in base super saiyan ever since his Time Chamber training with Gohan in the Cell Arc and his abillity to use Kaioken twice as well in base(He's only gone up to X10 in Blue but was using up to X20 with minimal fatigue against Frieza)tells me that his Ki control in base form is better than in Blue.

What we know about Blue is that it is stronger than Base Super Saiyan, that it is the form that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan takes when the Saiyan isn't a God all the time(Black's Rose being the form it takes when the Saiyan is already a God,) and that it is more practical than SSJ2 and SSJ3, which Goku only uses to guage how strong a third party is in comprison to himself anymore.

4: Going on from three, we can thus logically conclude that, whatever advantage Goku gets from Blue, it's not him magically being able to hold back better in a form that literally makes him a God that's significantly more powerful than his Super Saiyan form.

5: As Goku has no need to go Blue to control his energy or hold back, basic logic dictates that he used it becuase 1: He needs to know how well Krillin can hold up against people on the level that he is when he uses bue or 2: Krillin is now strong enough to put up a decent fight that Goku needed to use Blue, even if Goku was still holding back some when using Blue.

6: To repeat my earliar post: Rewatch the Paradise plant mini arc. Note that overcoming his fears and insecurities gave krillin a unique battle aura and seemingly increased his power level by leaps and bounds. This is not me insisting that power levels are jumping around like crazy. This is me pointing out that Krillin did, in fact, get a significant power boost.

[The Troubadour]

Actually, Goku went up to Kaioken x20 against Jiren while in SSB.

Anyway, this isn't anything new in the new movies and series. Vegeta went from weaker-than-SS3!Goku to outperforming him against Beerus in "Battle of the Gods" just from being furious at Beerus slapping Bulma, and from that he jumped to equal-to-SSB!Goku (without even performing the Super Saiyan God ritual!) in "Resurrection 'F' ".

ETA: Actually, I was wrong, this sort of thing already happened in the original series, too, though it was mostly centered on zenkai power boosts and Gohan's hidden power (remember him suddenly being able to momentarily overpower Freeza in his first transformation just from getting furious?).

[Anteros]

The new DBZ abridged came out if anyone cares about that sort of thing. It's a Christmas special, not an actual episode though.

[The Troubadour]

And it is awesome!

[Rakaydos]

What's the new abridged episode based on? Movie, actual Xmas special, or whole cloth creation?

[Rater202]

What's the new abridged episode based on? Movie, actual Xmas special, or whole cloth creation?

They turned Plan to Eradicate The Super Saiyans(With a teensy bit of Footage from the original OVA that came with the original Plan to Eradicate The Saiyans) into "Plan to Eradicate Christmas."

They also had a tiny bit of Original Animation at the end.

[Anteros]

And it is awesome!

I actually thought it wasn't as good as their usual work. They've set the bar pretty high though.

[Lord Raziere]

And it is awesome!

I love the jokes they did with Goku and Trunks myself. though Gohan's present made laugh out loud simply because of how unexpected it was to me for some reason.

[Lemmy]

No episode this week?

[Lord Raziere]

No episode this week?

Yeah pretty much. It'll be Vegeta's first worfing of the New Year.

[Lemmy]

Man... Right when something of consequence finally happens.

[Present 2.0]

He's slightly more interesting in the manga... In the anime, I can't even remember he saying anything. I'm sure he did at some point, but I can't remember it for life of me...

I think the most interesting line from him was, when he said, what Garbage the Pride of an Assassine is.

I am still waiting for Toppos Line about giving up Justice pays of. Maybe he'll do some "unfair" psychological Warfare against Gohan.

Also I just realized, that C17 wanted to take a boat to Kame-House in DBZ Abridged 45 until A16 talked him out of it. And his Motivation in this Arc is that he wants a boat... so DB Super Abridged can call back to that, when they get to this Arc.

[Rater202]

The Androids here seem to be following the WoG about them that Toriyama gave a couple years ago.

TFS also uses that in their characterization of the androids.

Hence the similarities.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Episode 122

Show

Whelp. IIIIIIIITS WORFING TIME! WITH YOUR HOST......VEGETAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

*sings the opening theme with nothing but the word "whorf" as the lyrics*

INTENSE STAREDOWN! BEHOLD ALL THE RUFFLES IN THE WIND!

oh and High Priest shrank the bleachers to match the people left. yeah, thats fair.

and ooooooh they're realizing they're going to watch the other die Universe right in front of them thats screwed up.

Goku and Jiren and standing face to face now. like before. now kiss!

I like how Goku goes Bue and Jiren is absolutely unphased by this even when up close. he really just doesn't care, because he already beat Goku at that form, he ain't concerned one bit.

and ooooh! Vegeta fight-blocked ya, Goku, right when they were sharing reasons why they want to get stronger while Jiren was on top of Goku. so close.

"I'm the fastest in all the universes" oh that line must be familiar to Freeza given he employed Burter:
Freeza: ohohohohohohohoh, yes Ginyu well done
Dyspo: what are you talking about?
Freeza: oh nothing, just....nostalgia

and Jiren seems to facing down both Vegeta and Goku without trouble.....until Vegeta goes through Jiren's attack and punches him in the gut, and Jiren is shocked by this for some reason.

but then the Vegeta worfing begins.

Dyspo seems to have no chance....but then Dyspo turns the tables on Freeza by grabbing his tail. whoops.

and then Jiren tells Vegeta hell never be able to beat him with such arrogance. Vegeta responds BY PULLING OUT THE FINAL FLASH, OH NOOOOOOOOO......

IT FIRES AND.........it not working in.......3......2........1........

right on time, cue Vegeta getting shocked to the ground for his troubles, raise your hand if you saw this coming. Different Universe.....same result.

Tournament Status:
U7: 5/10
U11: 3/10
U3: Erased.
U4: Erased
U2: Erased.
U6: Erased.
U10: Erased.
U9: Erased.
Total: 8 fighters remaining.

This episode was.......completely predictable. Vegeta getting worfed again, old news.

Next episode: Vegeta will maybe get Ultra Instinct or something. apparently, who knows.

[Lemmy]

Spoiler: Episode 122 - Not a Worf

Show

It was a defeat, but I wouldn't call it "Worfing". Vegeta He didn't lose just to show us how powerful Jiren is. We already had scenes with Jiran showing his powers (against Goku, no less!) Vegeta lost so that he can be motivated to go beyond his limits (in the very next episode, according to the preview).

Vegeta didn't go through anything that Goku himself didn't. In fact, he actually fared quite better than Goku did (in SSJ Blue). If anyone was "worfed", it was Goku when he first fought Jiren.

- - -

Kinda off how Jiren actually bothere dmoving against SSJB Goku this time... I guess the power-up Goku got from his battle against Kefla was quite substantial. Of course, that doesn't explain why Vegeta can suddenly do much better than Goku did, so that's another point for "DBS is as consistent as gelatine in an earthquake";

[Douglas]

Finally started watching this, and recently got through the Future Trunks/Zamasu arc.

Goku Black's background doesn't make sense to me. That version of Zamasu knew of Goku and his strength, and resented losing to him, because he met and fought Goku before starting any of his plan. But that meeting only happened because Beerus and Whis went to investigate, and that investigation was pretty much automatically followed by confirming Zamasu's guilt, stopping him, and destroying him. There is no combination of events where that meeting between Zamasu and Goku takes place but Zamasu lives. Is there any explanation given for this?

If it were just a causality loop (Goku Black's existence causes the investigation, meeting, and subsequent creation of Goku Black) I could accept that easily, but this is an apparent causality inconsistency.

[Rater202]

Finally started watching this, and recently got through the Future Trunks/Zamasu arc.

Goku Black's background doesn't make sense to me. That version of Zamasu knew of Goku and his strength, and resented losing to him, because he met and fought Goku before starting any of his plan. But that meeting only happened because Beerus and Whis went to investigate, and that investigation was pretty much automatically followed by confirming Zamasu's guilt, stopping him, and destroying him. There is no combination of events where that meeting between Zamasu and Goku takes place but Zamasu lives. Is there any explanation given for this?

If it were just a causality loop (Goku Black's existence causes the investigation, meeting, and subsequent creation of Goku Black) I could accept that easily, but this is an apparent causality inconsistency.

Goku Black has a Time ring that allows him to travel through time and to alternate Timelines.

The Time Ring prevents him from being ret-gonned.(Becuase Godly Time tRavel, unlike Bulma's machine, actually changes time instead of creating alternate multiverses.)

Essentially, in the original timeline, they never went backand thus Whis didn't rewind time tosave Gowasu and Beerus didn't erase Zamasu. Something differant(having knowledgeof the loop?) made them do that, and Beerus fully expected erasing Zamasu to make Goku Black have never happened, but the Time Ring Goku Black was wearing prevented the ripples from catching him.

Honestly, they could have just had Bulma say "Silly Gods, Time Travel doesn't work that way" and been done with it(The various Future Trunkses and Cells are more confusing IMHO), but between Toyiama's notes for Dragon Ball Online(which was meant to be canon and we've got some hints thatSuper's heading towards it) and Whis saving everybody's buts with Frieza it had already been established that it's differant when divine beings do it.

[Douglas]

Essentially, in the original timeline, they never went backand thus Whis didn't rewind time tosave Gowasu and Beerus didn't erase Zamasu. Something differant(having knowledgeof the loop?) made them do that, and Beerus fully expected erasing Zamasu to make Goku Black have never happened, but the Time Ring Goku Black was wearing prevented the ripples from catching him.

But in the "original timeline" they did go there in the first place, which they only did because they knew of Goku Black and the loop. There is no difference presented, or that I can think of as even slightly plausible, that would change whether Zamasu got destroyed without also changing whether Zamasu met and fought Goku.