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2017-11-15, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Hunting "Yonder."
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Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
So today I decided to start going over broken spells and attempt fixes for them, so I will post them as I find them:
Banned Spells
These spells are beyond redemption IMO.
- Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle
- Polymorph Line (or use PF version)
- Consumptive Field (Lesser/Greater)
- Celerity Line
- Shivering Touch (Frostburn)
- Time stop
- Maw of Chaos (SpC)
- Ray of stupidity (SpC)
- Stunning Ray (SpC)
The Spells
Glibness: +30? (Here's where someone drops a link ). Reduced to 1/2 CL, in games not allowing for CL increasing shenanigans I think it would be alright to say CL.
Arcane Lock: Increases the DC to open a lock by 1/2 CL.
Knock: Gives a bonus on Open Lock checks equal to 1/2 CL, lasting 1 minute/level.
Divine Power: Only the war domain gets this.
Haste: Gives one partial action (move/swift/standard) a round. Yes this helps casters as well, but as it was casters already could and melee did not get anything.
Summons: Summoned creatures can not use any spells, SLA's, or supernatural abilities they may possess. (Courtesy of noob)
Planar Binding Spells: I was going to ban, but how about this: every 30 minutes there is a 100-CL% chance the creature escapes any bindings? Feel it makes the spells useless though...
Freedom of Movement: You add 1/2 your caster level to any effect that would impede movement, and in natural settings and regular rough terrain you may move normally. In addition you add 1/2 your level to escape artist and grapple checks to resist a grapple attempt.
Windwall: Kind of stuck on this one... maybe normal effects but ranged weapon attacks instead have a 50-enemies BAB% chance to miss?
Teleport/Planeshift
Find Traps: Spells don't like rogues do they? Replace this with an insight bonus equal to 1/2 CL (possibly 1/4 with CL boosting effects?) on search checks... and rename it Eagle eye while your at it.
Wall of Iron: there is a 100-CL% chance that the iron of the wall is not forge quality.
That's it for now, however I'll be updating this later.Last edited by Westhart; 2017-11-15 at 01:26 PM.
Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH and/or use it.
Extended Signature
Well, it seems that life has deposited me here, yet again. Hopefully this time I get to stay a while, as I intend on revising some old homebrew.
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2017-11-15, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
What matters for wall of iron is not much the quality of the metal but how you get gigantic amounts of iron basically removing the mining step in getting iron(iron mines would stop existing once some wizards can cast that spell) and how it does good battlefield control on one spell(wall of stone is somehow more powerful)
Even if the iron have no commercial value you suddenly get as much iron as you want for your own use(either for using fabricate for making tiny spiked balls or for building houses and castles)
Personally I think wall of stone is more powerful and more often useful than wall of iron.
Nerfing freedom of movement basically means that the party fighter will lose against grappling monsters forever(I mean the monsters often get +23423152345243564 to grapple checks and eats the fighter preventing it from dealing damage and instakilling it and dealing negative levels) basically freedom of movement is an overpowered counter but it is absolutely needed for making mundane characters have relevance.
Planar binding op part is not really how it force the target to obey: it is more how it teleport the target to you(like I decide right now I want a quasit and there is one quasit that will be brought to you against his own will).
Get a bunch of non lethal traps and the party fighter ready an action to attack and then planar bind something.
That thing is instastunned and then you can take all the time you want to use control spells onto it.
For summons the fix is simple: remove all the summons with cool slas or casting from the list.Last edited by noob; 2017-11-15 at 11:31 AM.
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2017-11-15, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Hunting "Yonder."
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Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
Hmm, fair point. I don't like the fix of having it have a duration though as that seems weird to me honestly.
Nerfing freedom of movement basically means that the party fighter will lose against grappling monsters forever(I mean the monsters often get +23423152345243564 to grapple checks and eats the fighter preventing it from dealing damage and instakilling it and dealing negative levels) basically freedom of movement is an overpowered counter but it is absolutely needed for making mundane characters have relevance.
Planar binding op part is not really how it force the target to obey: it is more how it teleport the target to you(like I decide right now I want a quasit and there is one quasit that will be brought to you against his own will).
Get a bunch of non lethal traps and the party fighter ready an action to attack and then planar bind something.
That thing is instastunned and then you can take all the time you want to use control spells onto it.
For summons the fix is simple: remove all the summons with cool slas or casting from the list.Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH and/or use it.
Extended Signature
Well, it seems that life has deposited me here, yet again. Hopefully this time I get to stay a while, as I intend on revising some old homebrew.
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2017-11-15, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
It is quick if you say "summons can not use spell like abilities, spells and supernatural abilities while summoned"
(the supernatural ability is because there might be some summon-able creatures who gets slas as sur but I am not sure)
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2017-11-15, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Hunting "Yonder."
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Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH and/or use it.
Extended Signature
Well, it seems that life has deposited me here, yet again. Hopefully this time I get to stay a while, as I intend on revising some old homebrew.
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2017-11-15, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
Now about fixing teleportation it is very hard since a lot of the cosmology include the fact that you can change plane easily and there is many monsters who can either teleport of plane shift.(for example lantern archon is cr2 and can teleport at will)
Last edited by noob; 2017-11-15 at 11:58 AM.
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2017-11-15, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Hunting "Yonder."
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Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH and/or use it.
Extended Signature
Well, it seems that life has deposited me here, yet again. Hopefully this time I get to stay a while, as I intend on revising some old homebrew.
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2017-11-15, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- NYC
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Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
Some teleportation ideas that I've used:
Subtlety
- Teleportation is loud: dimension door is a 'bamf" sort of noise (conversation level), while greater teleport is like the clash of steel weapons, and plane shift is a thunder that shakes the foundations of mountains.
- Teleportation causes noise before you appear. A Listen check can determine the approximate destination of an inbound teleportation. Longer distance teleportation causes more warning time, and also a louder sound. Tactical teleportation spells are much, much harder to hear, since they're short-distance and since there's a battle going on which tends to hinder Listen checks.
Targeting
- You can teleport anywhere you can see, or where you have personally left an arcane mark.
- You can also teleport to established teleportation circles for which you know the pattern. Well-known circles are usually guarded.
- Other than LoS and known circle patterns, you can't teleport to places you haven't been. Exploration by conventional means is a state-sponsored activity.
- Plane Shift only works in locations that are coterminous with that plane. If you want to visit the Plane of Fire, you might need to find a nice active volcano, or an underground coal fire that's been burning for a century.
- It's comparatively easier to create a location that's coterminous with the lower planes (the fiendish realms), because it's comparatively easy to inflict suffering on mortals. Details for this sort of thing are suitable for a horror campaign.
Spoiler: More HorrorAt a deeper level of horror, you can use a living humanoid's intestines as a temporary gate. This limits the duration of the gate, and the size of creature which can pass through, but it makes for a memorable session when the PCs finally get around to "closing" a gate.
Important: only Fiends can pass through this type of gate. Only Fiends and cultist NPCs can create this type of gate.
Mechanically, this creates an asymmetry between what Fiends can do and what PCs can do.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-11-15, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Hunting "Yonder."
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Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH and/or use it.
Extended Signature
Well, it seems that life has deposited me here, yet again. Hopefully this time I get to stay a while, as I intend on revising some old homebrew.
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2017-11-15, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
If you want to have FoM based off of Bab, just say that it doubles the bonus from BAB.
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2017-11-15, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Hunting "Yonder."
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Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH and/or use it.
Extended Signature
Well, it seems that life has deposited me here, yet again. Hopefully this time I get to stay a while, as I intend on revising some old homebrew.
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2017-11-15, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
Except clerics and druids have 15 bab.(potentially more with one level in prestige paladin) which would mean that clerics and druids of high level would have grapple immunity.
T1 casters are not all wizards.
On the other hand clerics and druids getting immunity would happen at very high level and fighters would get immunity as early as level 15(and before level 15 most fighters would fail a great portion of the time grapple checks against colossal scorpions(which are low cr creatures that have crazily madly high grapple checks: it is the reason why freedom of movement gives immunity: you would need a stupidly high bonus for making freedom of movement help against grapple))Last edited by noob; 2017-11-15 at 02:49 PM.
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2017-11-15, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
That moment when you realize that druid and cleric are indeed 3/4 BAB classes... I replaced clerics with my setting with the Cloistered variant, my bad, and I completely forgot druids
On the other hand clerics and druids getting immunity would happen at very high level and fighters would get immunity as early as level 15(and before level 15 most fighters would fail a great portion of the time grapple checks against colossal scorpions)Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH and/or use it.
Extended Signature
Well, it seems that life has deposited me here, yet again. Hopefully this time I get to stay a while, as I intend on revising some old homebrew.
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2017-11-15, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
I wonder what the designers of the monster manual 1(part of core) had in their head when they made the colossal monstrous scorpion which have +58 to its grapple checks and is cr12
I mean a level 12 fighter that somehow get 50 strength will have a grapple check of 32 which means that this fighter always lose grapple checks even through it have way more strength than what a fighter is supposed to get at this level.
Now if the fighter have a level 12 caster friend who casts freedom of movement he gets a +6.
He now still autofails yay!Last edited by noob; 2017-11-15 at 02:59 PM.
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2017-11-15, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2016
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- Hunting "Yonder."
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Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH and/or use it.
Extended Signature
Well, it seems that life has deposited me here, yet again. Hopefully this time I get to stay a while, as I intend on revising some old homebrew.
-
2017-11-15, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
I guess I need to ask 'why' for a sizeable amount of these
I feel most of the shenanigans from these spells can be put to a stop just by telling players to not be jerks.
and what has maw of chaos ever done? oh it does some minor damage and makesit harder o cast spells?
plus the whole you are allowing planar binding/ally and banning less abuseable spells which literally say 'ask the DM, yo'
your changing glibness, but keeping true strike the same? that's not cool
Divine power should not even be on the cleric's spell list. it should be a paladin spells IMO, but that is just my preference. my changes made it a paladin 2 gave 1 temp HP per level +6 to Str and Con and a +2 divine bonus to attacks, saves, and AC
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2017-11-15, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
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2017-11-15, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Hunting "Yonder."
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Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
Note: this is in progress, and I was away from books for most.
I feel most of the shenanigans from these spells can be put to a stop just by telling players to not be jerks.
and what has maw of chaos ever done? oh it does some minor damage and makesit harder o cast spells?
plus the whole you are allowing planar binding/ally and banning less abuseable spells which literally say 'ask the DM, yo'
your changing glibness, but keeping true strike the same? that's not cool
Divine power should not even be on the cleric's spell list. it should be a paladin spells IMO, but that is just my preference. my changes made it a paladin 2 gave 1 temp HP per level +6 to Str and Con and a +2 divine bonus to attacks, saves, and AC
Yes, the size modifiers are a bit heavy handed... Of course fighter's lame but still they could use a rework... Maybe look for one around January -ish (hey, my schedule's overcrowded as it is )Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH and/or use it.
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Well, it seems that life has deposited me here, yet again. Hopefully this time I get to stay a while, as I intend on revising some old homebrew.
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2017-11-15, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
I was using fighters as a term for generic full bab characters and not for meaning the fighter class.
The problem is rather than the numbers on grapple checks grows super quickly for monsters.
For example a magical beast progressing by hd gains 3 bab per cr which means that his grapple progress of 3 per CR(in fact more usually because there is size increases who gives more and more bonus to grapple and there is also the strength increase every 4 hit dice and every time its size increase).
The grapple of a full bab adventurer progress of approximately 2 per level(the bab and the fact he gets better strength items and class features who gives more strength)
You see the gap becomes more and more wide as the adventurers progress and increasing by half the caster level with freedom of movement is not going to bridge the gap.Last edited by noob; 2017-11-15 at 03:25 PM.
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2017-11-16, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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- Malsheem, Nessus
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Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells
Like ngilop, I feel that most of these aren't as troublesome as they seem. A few comments on individual spells:
Very few uses of these spells are actually problematic; I've never heard of someone breaking the game by using wish to resurrect a slain cleric, for instance, and giving access to inherent ability score boosts is key at higher levels. It's mostly overly-permissive DMs and ways to get XP-free wishes and miracles that are breakable; removing the "greater effects" clauses (and perhaps reducing the base XP cost of wish to compensate) and making them cost XP even if something would negate the XP cost reins them in just fine.
Glibness: +30? (Here's where someone drops a link ). Reduced to 1/2 CL, in games not allowing for CL increasing shenanigans I think it would be alright to say CL.
The best fix here is to not actually grant a Bluff bonus at all, but simply to not grant listeners a Sense Motive bonus against the caster's Bluff while the spell is up. That way, the caster has a chance to get away with ridiculous lies but isn't actually more persuasive than usual when only mildly stretching the truth.
Summons: Summoned creatures can not use any spells, SLA's, or supernatural abilities they may possess. (Courtesy of noob)
Instead, I'd just disable a summoned creature's daily spells and SLAs and let it keep its at-will or recharging abilities (which are more integral to its fighting style and theme than 1/day abilities anyway), so a hypothetical summoned dragon would keep its iconic breath weapon but not be a sorcerer lite, and a unicorn from SNA IV would retain its thematic detect evil and magic circle against evil but not be able to throw lots of healing at the party.
Planar Binding Spells: I was going to ban, but how about this: every 30 minutes there is a 100-CL% chance the creature escapes any bindings? Feel it makes the spells useless though...
The first can be fixed by simply saying that any attempts by the caster or his allies to magically compel the creature (or debuff it to make it more receptive to bribes and such) end the spell. The third can be addressed by saying that called creatures, like summoned creatures, can't use any of their own summoning or calling effects (though they can teleport as normal).
The second doesn't really have a quick fix like the others, but it can be addressed by giving a caster a control limit for summoned and bound creatures, similar to the HD limits on rebuke undead, and saying that bound creatures are reliable within that limit but have an increasing chance to break out of bindings beyond that. That allows the caster to have a couple reliable bound minions safely, but not amass an army unless he's very powerful or willing to take big risks.