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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    So today I decided to start going over broken spells and attempt fixes for them, so I will post them as I find them:
    Banned Spells
    These spells are beyond redemption IMO.
    • Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle
    • Polymorph Line (or use PF version)
    • Consumptive Field (Lesser/Greater)
    • Celerity Line
    • Shivering Touch (Frostburn)
    • Time stop
    • Maw of Chaos (SpC)
    • Ray of stupidity (SpC)
    • Stunning Ray (SpC)



    The Spells
    Glibness: +30? (Here's where someone drops a link ). Reduced to 1/2 CL, in games not allowing for CL increasing shenanigans I think it would be alright to say CL.

    Arcane Lock: Increases the DC to open a lock by 1/2 CL.

    Knock: Gives a bonus on Open Lock checks equal to 1/2 CL, lasting 1 minute/level.

    Divine Power: Only the war domain gets this.

    Haste: Gives one partial action (move/swift/standard) a round. Yes this helps casters as well, but as it was casters already could and melee did not get anything.

    Summons: Summoned creatures can not use any spells, SLA's, or supernatural abilities they may possess. (Courtesy of noob)

    Planar Binding Spells: I was going to ban, but how about this: every 30 minutes there is a 100-CL% chance the creature escapes any bindings? Feel it makes the spells useless though...

    Freedom of Movement: You add 1/2 your caster level to any effect that would impede movement, and in natural settings and regular rough terrain you may move normally. In addition you add 1/2 your level to escape artist and grapple checks to resist a grapple attempt.

    Windwall: Kind of stuck on this one... maybe normal effects but ranged weapon attacks instead have a 50-enemies BAB% chance to miss?

    Teleport/Planeshift
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Some teleportation ideas that I've used:

    Subtlety

    - Teleportation is loud: dimension door is a 'bamf" sort of noise (conversation level), while greater teleport is like the clash of steel weapons, and plane shift is a thunder that shakes the foundations of mountains.

    - Teleportation causes noise before you appear. A Listen check can determine the approximate destination of an inbound teleportation. Longer distance teleportation causes more warning time, and also a louder sound. Tactical teleportation spells are much, much harder to hear, since they're short-distance and since there's a battle going on which tends to hinder Listen checks.


    Targeting

    - You can teleport anywhere you can see, or where you have personally left an arcane mark.

    - You can also teleport to established teleportation circles for which you know the pattern. Well-known circles are usually guarded.

    - Other than LoS and known circle patterns, you can't teleport to places you haven't been. Exploration by conventional means is a state-sponsored activity.

    - Plane Shift only works in locations that are coterminous with that plane. If you want to visit the Plane of Fire, you might need to find a nice active volcano, or an underground coal fire that's been burning for a century.

    - It's comparatively easier to create a location that's coterminous with the lower planes (the fiendish realms), because it's comparatively easy to inflict suffering on mortals. Details for this sort of thing are suitable for a horror campaign.

    Spoiler: More Horror
    Show
    At a deeper level of horror, you can use a living humanoid's intestines as a temporary gate. This limits the duration of the gate, and the size of creature which can pass through, but it makes for a memorable session when the PCs finally get around to "closing" a gate.

    Important: only Fiends can pass through this type of gate. Only Fiends and cultist NPCs can create this type of gate.

    Mechanically, this creates an asymmetry between what Fiends can do and what PCs can do.


    Find Traps: Spells don't like rogues do they? Replace this with an insight bonus equal to 1/2 CL (possibly 1/4 with CL boosting effects?) on search checks... and rename it Eagle eye while your at it.

    Wall of Iron: there is a 100-CL% chance that the iron of the wall is not forge quality.

    That's it for now, however I'll be updating this later.
    Last edited by Westhart; 2017-11-15 at 01:26 PM.
    Homebrew: If it is mine feel free to PEACH and/or use it.

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    Well, it seems that life has deposited me here, yet again. Hopefully this time I get to stay a while, as I intend on revising some old homebrew.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    What matters for wall of iron is not much the quality of the metal but how you get gigantic amounts of iron basically removing the mining step in getting iron(iron mines would stop existing once some wizards can cast that spell) and how it does good battlefield control on one spell(wall of stone is somehow more powerful)
    Even if the iron have no commercial value you suddenly get as much iron as you want for your own use(either for using fabricate for making tiny spiked balls or for building houses and castles)
    Personally I think wall of stone is more powerful and more often useful than wall of iron.
    Nerfing freedom of movement basically means that the party fighter will lose against grappling monsters forever(I mean the monsters often get +23423152345243564 to grapple checks and eats the fighter preventing it from dealing damage and instakilling it and dealing negative levels) basically freedom of movement is an overpowered counter but it is absolutely needed for making mundane characters have relevance.
    Planar binding op part is not really how it force the target to obey: it is more how it teleport the target to you(like I decide right now I want a quasit and there is one quasit that will be brought to you against his own will).
    Get a bunch of non lethal traps and the party fighter ready an action to attack and then planar bind something.
    That thing is instastunned and then you can take all the time you want to use control spells onto it.
    For summons the fix is simple: remove all the summons with cool slas or casting from the list.
    Last edited by noob; 2017-11-15 at 11:31 AM.

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    What matters for wall of iron is not much the quality of the metal but how you get gigantic amounts of iron basically removing the mining step in getting iron(iron mines would stop existing once some wizards can cast that spell) and how it does good battlefield control on one spell(wall of stone is somehow more powerful)
    Even if the iron have no commercial value you suddenly get as much iron as you want for your own use(either for using fabricate for making tiny spiked balls or for building houses and castles)
    Personally I think wall of stone is more powerful and more often useful than wall of iron.
    Hmm, fair point. I don't like the fix of having it have a duration though as that seems weird to me honestly.
    Nerfing freedom of movement basically means that the party fighter will lose against grappling monsters forever(I mean the monsters often get +23423152345243564 to grapple checks and eats the fighter preventing it from dealing damage and instakilling it and dealing negative levels) basically freedom of movement is an overpowered counter but it is absolutely needed for making mundane characters have relevance.
    Hmm... It also stops the wizard from being grappled as well... Maybe something basing it off the target creature's BAB... I'll have to think more on it.
    Planar binding op part is not really how it force the target to obey: it is more how it teleport the target to you(like I decide right now I want a quasit and there is one quasit that will be brought to you against his own will).
    Get a bunch of non lethal traps and the party fighter ready an action to attack and then planar bind something.
    That thing is instastunned and then you can take all the time you want to use control spells onto it.
    Ah, my bad, I have not has the pleasure of dealing with a planar binding type. I'll come up with something... maybe "while under a planar binding spell the creature can not be negatively effected, and anything to do so while it is affected automatically fails, and the binding releases the creature on its init"?
    For summons the fix is simple: remove all the summons with cool slas or casting from the list.
    Going through monsters 1 by 1 is not something I think of as "quick" fixes...
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    It is quick if you say "summons can not use spell like abilities, spells and supernatural abilities while summoned"
    (the supernatural ability is because there might be some summon-able creatures who gets slas as sur but I am not sure)

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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    It is quick if you say "summons can not use spell like abilities, spells and supernatural abilities while summoned"
    (the supernatural ability is because there might be some summon-able creatures who gets slas as sur but I am not sure)
    Oh, didn't think of that
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Now about fixing teleportation it is very hard since a lot of the cosmology include the fact that you can change plane easily and there is many monsters who can either teleport of plane shift.(for example lantern archon is cr2 and can teleport at will)
    Last edited by noob; 2017-11-15 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Now about fixing teleportation it is very hard since a lot of the cosmology include the fact that you can change plane easily and there is many monsters who can either teleport of plane shift.(for example lantern archon is cr2 and can teleport at will)
    Yes, my thought was make the casting longer (gets rid of scry and die since the target can move somewhere else) or enable portals to set destinations...
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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Some teleportation ideas that I've used:

    Subtlety

    - Teleportation is loud: dimension door is a 'bamf" sort of noise (conversation level), while greater teleport is like the clash of steel weapons, and plane shift is a thunder that shakes the foundations of mountains.

    - Teleportation causes noise before you appear. A Listen check can determine the approximate destination of an inbound teleportation. Longer distance teleportation causes more warning time, and also a louder sound. Tactical teleportation spells are much, much harder to hear, since they're short-distance and since there's a battle going on which tends to hinder Listen checks.


    Targeting

    - You can teleport anywhere you can see, or where you have personally left an arcane mark.

    - You can also teleport to established teleportation circles for which you know the pattern. Well-known circles are usually guarded.

    - Other than LoS and known circle patterns, you can't teleport to places you haven't been. Exploration by conventional means is a state-sponsored activity.

    - Plane Shift only works in locations that are coterminous with that plane. If you want to visit the Plane of Fire, you might need to find a nice active volcano, or an underground coal fire that's been burning for a century.

    - It's comparatively easier to create a location that's coterminous with the lower planes (the fiendish realms), because it's comparatively easy to inflict suffering on mortals. Details for this sort of thing are suitable for a horror campaign.

    Spoiler: More Horror
    Show
    At a deeper level of horror, you can use a living humanoid's intestines as a temporary gate. This limits the duration of the gate, and the size of creature which can pass through, but it makes for a memorable session when the PCs finally get around to "closing" a gate.

    Important: only Fiends can pass through this type of gate. Only Fiends and cultist NPCs can create this type of gate.

    Mechanically, this creates an asymmetry between what Fiends can do and what PCs can do.

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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Some teleportation ideas that I've used:

    Subtlety

    - Teleportation is loud: dimension door is a 'bamf" sort of noise (conversation level), while greater teleport is like the clash of steel weapons, and plane shift is a thunder that shakes the foundations of mountains.

    - Teleportation causes noise before you appear. A Listen check can determine the approximate destination of an inbound teleportation. Longer distance teleportation causes more warning time, and also a louder sound. Tactical teleportation spells are much, much harder to hear, since they're short-distance and since there's a battle going on which tends to hinder Listen checks.


    Targeting

    - You can teleport anywhere you can see, or where you have personally left an arcane mark.

    - You can also teleport to established teleportation circles for which you know the pattern. Well-known circles are usually guarded.

    - Other than LoS and known circle patterns, you can't teleport to places you haven't been. Exploration by conventional means is a state-sponsored activity.

    - Plane Shift only works in locations that are coterminous with that plane. If you want to visit the Plane of Fire, you might need to find a nice active volcano, or an underground coal fire that's been burning for a century.

    - It's comparatively easier to create a location that's coterminous with the lower planes (the fiendish realms), because it's comparatively easy to inflict suffering on mortals. Details for this sort of thing are suitable for a horror campaign.

    Spoiler: More Horror
    Show
    At a deeper level of horror, you can use a living humanoid's intestines as a temporary gate. This limits the duration of the gate, and the size of creature which can pass through, but it makes for a memorable session when the PCs finally get around to "closing" a gate.

    Important: only Fiends can pass through this type of gate. Only Fiends and cultist NPCs can create this type of gate.

    Mechanically, this creates an asymmetry between what Fiends can do and what PCs can do.
    Ooh, I like these
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    If you want to have FoM based off of Bab, just say that it doubles the bonus from BAB.

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    confused Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by XionUnborn01 View Post
    If you want to have FoM based off of Bab, just say that it doubles the bonus from BAB.
    freedom of movement doesn't give a BAB bonus...

    ...for basing it off BAB I was thinking something like +10 or under, as is (screw you casters ) +11-+15 50% miss chance against such effects and normal benefits (Iffy on that one), 15+ Straight immunity...
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Except clerics and druids have 15 bab.(potentially more with one level in prestige paladin) which would mean that clerics and druids of high level would have grapple immunity.
    T1 casters are not all wizards.
    On the other hand clerics and druids getting immunity would happen at very high level and fighters would get immunity as early as level 15(and before level 15 most fighters would fail a great portion of the time grapple checks against colossal scorpions(which are low cr creatures that have crazily madly high grapple checks: it is the reason why freedom of movement gives immunity: you would need a stupidly high bonus for making freedom of movement help against grapple))
    Last edited by noob; 2017-11-15 at 02:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Except clerics and druids have 15 bab.(potentially more with one level in prestige paladin) which would mean that clerics and druids of high level would have grapple immunity.
    T1 casters are not all wizards.
    That moment when you realize that druid and cleric are indeed 3/4 BAB classes... I replaced clerics with my setting with the Cloistered variant, my bad, and I completely forgot druids
    On the other hand clerics and druids getting immunity would happen at very high level and fighters would get immunity as early as level 15(and before level 15 most fighters would fail a great portion of the time grapple checks against colossal scorpions)
    Could make it down to +10 letting high level wizards get it, along with druids ~16th and a fighter @ 10th... I mean auto succeed should never be on a spell IMO.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    That moment when you realize that druid and cleric are indeed 3/4 BAB classes... I replaced clerics with my setting with the Cloistered variant, my bad, and I completely forgot druids

    Could make it down to +10 letting high level wizards get it, along with druids ~16th and a fighter @ 10th... I mean auto succeed should never be on a spell IMO.
    I wonder what the designers of the monster manual 1(part of core) had in their head when they made the colossal monstrous scorpion which have +58 to its grapple checks and is cr12
    I mean a level 12 fighter that somehow get 50 strength will have a grapple check of 32 which means that this fighter always lose grapple checks even through it have way more strength than what a fighter is supposed to get at this level.
    Now if the fighter have a level 12 caster friend who casts freedom of movement he gets a +6.
    He now still autofails yay!
    Last edited by noob; 2017-11-15 at 02:59 PM.

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    I wonder what the designers of the monster manual 1(part of core) had in their head when they made the colossal monstrous scorpion which have +58 to its grapple checks and is cr12
    I mean a level 12 fighter that somehow get 50 strength will have a grapple check of 32 which means that this fighter always lose grapple checks even through it have way more strength than what a fighter is supposed to get at this level.
    Yeah... hmmm... I'll have to think on this some more
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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    So today I decided to start going over broken spells and attempt fixes for them, so I will post them as I find them:
    Banned Spells
    These spells are beyond redemption IMO.
    • Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle
    • Polymorph Line (or use PF version)
    • Consumptive Field (Lesser/Greater)
    • Celerity Line
    • Shivering Touch (Frostburn)
    • Time stop
    • Maw of Chaos (SpC)
    • Ray of stupidity (SpC)
    • Stunning Ray (SpC)



    The Spells
    Glibness: +30? (Here's where someone drops a link ). Reduced to 1/2 CL, in games not allowing for CL increasing shenanigans I think it would be alright to say CL.

    Arcane Lock: Increases the DC to open a lock by 1/2 CL.

    Knock: Gives a bonus on Open Lock checks equal to 1/2 CL, lasting 1 minute/level.

    Divine Power: Only the war domain gets this.

    Haste: Gives one partial action (move/swift/standard) a round. Yes this helps casters as well, but as it was casters already could and melee did not get anything.

    Summons: Summoned creatures can not use any spells, SLA's, or supernatural abilities they may possess. (Courtesy of noob)

    Planar Binding Spells: I was going to ban, but how about this: every 30 minutes there is a 100-CL% chance the creature escapes any bindings? Feel it makes the spells useless though...

    Freedom of Movement: You add 1/2 your caster level to any effect that would impede movement, and in natural settings and regular rough terrain you may move normally. In addition you add 1/2 your level to escape artist and grapple checks to resist a grapple attempt.

    Windwall: Kind of stuck on this one... maybe normal effects but ranged weapon attacks instead have a 50-enemies BAB% chance to miss?

    Teleport/Planeshift
    Spoiler
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    Find Traps: Spells don't like rogues do they? Replace this with an insight bonus equal to 1/2 CL (possibly 1/4 with CL boosting effects?) on search checks... and rename it Eagle eye while your at it.

    Wall of Iron: there is a 100-CL% chance that the iron of the wall is not forge quality.

    That's it for now, however I'll be updating this later.
    I guess I need to ask 'why' for a sizeable amount of these

    I feel most of the shenanigans from these spells can be put to a stop just by telling players to not be jerks.


    and what has maw of chaos ever done? oh it does some minor damage and makesit harder o cast spells?

    plus the whole you are allowing planar binding/ally and banning less abuseable spells which literally say 'ask the DM, yo'

    your changing glibness, but keeping true strike the same? that's not cool

    Divine power should not even be on the cleric's spell list. it should be a paladin spells IMO, but that is just my preference. my changes made it a paladin 2 gave 1 temp HP per level +6 to Str and Con and a +2 divine bonus to attacks, saves, and AC

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Yeah... hmmm... I'll have to think on this some more
    I think the whole grappling system is broken and should be reworked.(like make grappling depend less on size because else fighters have no chance of ever winning a grapple without using tons of magic and being strong as a god)

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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    I guess I need to ask 'why' for a sizeable amount of these
    Note: this is in progress, and I was away from books for most.
    I feel most of the shenanigans from these spells can be put to a stop just by telling players to not be jerks.
    Agreed, but if it is worked out you need not bother either

    and what has maw of chaos ever done? oh it does some minor damage and makesit harder o cast spells?
    I was worried about the melee with this, a time stop and forcecage honestly, although I plan on going over everything again at home when I have my books
    plus the whole you are allowing planar binding/ally and banning less abuseable spells which literally say 'ask the DM, yo'
    In my defense the SpC ones were done away from the book, and summoning creatures is common in lit so I'd like to keep it without making it either a poor choice or an awesome one.
    your changing glibness, but keeping true strike the same? that's not cool
    True Strike is on the list, but as I said earlier in this post, it is a WIP.
    Divine power should not even be on the cleric's spell list. it should be a paladin spells IMO, but that is just my preference. my changes made it a paladin 2 gave 1 temp HP per level +6 to Str and Con and a +2 divine bonus to attacks, saves, and AC
    Hmm, I actually like that

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    I think the whole grappling system is broken and should be reworked.(like make grappling depend less on size because else fighters have no chance of ever winning a grapple without using tons of magic and being strong as a god)
    Yes, the size modifiers are a bit heavy handed... Of course fighter's lame but still they could use a rework... Maybe look for one around January -ish (hey, my schedule's overcrowded as it is )
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    I was using fighters as a term for generic full bab characters and not for meaning the fighter class.
    The problem is rather than the numbers on grapple checks grows super quickly for monsters.
    For example a magical beast progressing by hd gains 3 bab per cr which means that his grapple progress of 3 per CR(in fact more usually because there is size increases who gives more and more bonus to grapple and there is also the strength increase every 4 hit dice and every time its size increase).
    The grapple of a full bab adventurer progress of approximately 2 per level(the bab and the fact he gets better strength items and class features who gives more strength)
    You see the gap becomes more and more wide as the adventurers progress and increasing by half the caster level with freedom of movement is not going to bridge the gap.
    Last edited by noob; 2017-11-15 at 03:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Quick and Dirty rework of broken spells

    Like ngilop, I feel that most of these aren't as troublesome as they seem. A few comments on individual spells:

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    These spells are beyond redemption IMO.
    • Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle
    Very few uses of these spells are actually problematic; I've never heard of someone breaking the game by using wish to resurrect a slain cleric, for instance, and giving access to inherent ability score boosts is key at higher levels. It's mostly overly-permissive DMs and ways to get XP-free wishes and miracles that are breakable; removing the "greater effects" clauses (and perhaps reducing the base XP cost of wish to compensate) and making them cost XP even if something would negate the XP cost reins them in just fine.

    Glibness: +30? (Here's where someone drops a link ). Reduced to 1/2 CL, in games not allowing for CL increasing shenanigans I think it would be alright to say CL.
    The reason glibness grants a +30, as opposed to the usual +20 or +CL, is that the maximum Sense Motive modifier for an unbelievable Bluff is +20 and the target has to beat the bluffer by 10 to see through the bluff in any situation where it's important to "distinguish between a bluff that fails because the target doesn’t believe it and one that fails because it just asks too much of the target"; a +30 Bluff thus counters the effective +30 Sense Motive bonus in that situation.

    The best fix here is to not actually grant a Bluff bonus at all, but simply to not grant listeners a Sense Motive bonus against the caster's Bluff while the spell is up. That way, the caster has a chance to get away with ridiculous lies but isn't actually more persuasive than usual when only mildly stretching the truth.

    Summons: Summoned creatures can not use any spells, SLA's, or supernatural abilities they may possess. (Courtesy of noob)
    The only real use for many summons is for their magical capabilities; remove all of those and you basically limit summoners to conjuring up variously-sized sacks of HP with different movement modes, which is, while certainly more balanced, also not nearly as interesting.

    Instead, I'd just disable a summoned creature's daily spells and SLAs and let it keep its at-will or recharging abilities (which are more integral to its fighting style and theme than 1/day abilities anyway), so a hypothetical summoned dragon would keep its iconic breath weapon but not be a sorcerer lite, and a unicorn from SNA IV would retain its thematic detect evil and magic circle against evil but not be able to throw lots of healing at the party.

    Planar Binding Spells: I was going to ban, but how about this: every 30 minutes there is a 100-CL% chance the creature escapes any bindings? Feel it makes the spells useless though...
    The planar binding spells are really only abusable in three situations: when the caster can mind-control a bound monster so it obeys his every whim without needing to bargain with it, when the caster has enough downtime to bind a ton of cretures, and when the bound creature can bind other creatures which can bind other creatures which can....

    The first can be fixed by simply saying that any attempts by the caster or his allies to magically compel the creature (or debuff it to make it more receptive to bribes and such) end the spell. The third can be addressed by saying that called creatures, like summoned creatures, can't use any of their own summoning or calling effects (though they can teleport as normal).

    The second doesn't really have a quick fix like the others, but it can be addressed by giving a caster a control limit for summoned and bound creatures, similar to the HD limits on rebuke undead, and saying that bound creatures are reliable within that limit but have an increasing chance to break out of bindings beyond that. That allows the caster to have a couple reliable bound minions safely, but not amass an army unless he's very powerful or willing to take big risks.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


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