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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Oct 2016

    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    With that, this character is convincingly the best healer. This is getting pretty bad. The sheer versatility of this build is astonishing.
    • Infinite Blink + Mirror Image + Shield + False Life + Absorb Elements: best defense
    • Infinite Dimension Door: best evasion
    • Infinite heals and buffs: best support
    • Infinite twinned Hold or Banishment: best control
    • Infinite empowered lightning bolts, quickened EB spam: best DPR
    • Infinite greater invisibility and subtle nukes: best assassin

    I think the only thing this character can't break is saving throws.
    Heh there's a lot of semi-broken stuff coming out of XGE, but I think this is my favorite so far :)

    I will humbly submit, for the Best Defense, Armor of Agathys is quite a bit better than False Life. In theory you could get slightly more THP from False Life, but it's a maximum of three more total regardless of what level it's cast at. But AoA has the reactive damage. Oh also, you can add Aid to that equation.

    So just curious, what's the actual build at this point? Hexblade patron tomelock 3, Divine Soul X? Twin and quicken, picking up Subtle at DS 10?

    One of the things that I love/hate about sorcerers, is in theory they could do all kinds of ridiculous things, but then once you start actually building the character you have to make some really hard choices... the limited metamagics (and inability to switch them out when leveling) and spell choices make every sorc a tough optimization puzzle.
    Last edited by Zene; 2017-11-17 at 11:34 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    So just curious, what's the actual build at this point? Hexblade patron tomelock 3, Divine Soul X? Twin and quicken, picking up Subtle at DS 10?
    I'm fairly convinced that Divine Soul 9/Hexblade Tomelock 3/something else is the best build. If you go higher in Warlock you get an extra invocation or two, but none that are incredibly useful since you aren't blade pact, and you get higher level pact magic which is useless since you have infinite spells once you have a few weeks travel time. (Side note: If anyone wants to play this at a table I would recommend only doing the Sorlock Shuffle on nights when the rest of the party is also recovering with a long rest. If you keep it to just adventuring days like this you will still end up at infinite spells, but it is a slow burn instead of the other way.) Going above Sorcerer 9 gets you spell slots you can't use, extra sorcerer points cap that doesn't matter, and 5 more spells known. You could go to 10 and get an extra metamagic if there is one you really want, but twinned/quicken are the obvious winners at level 3.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by melvinmelon123 View Post
    I'm fairly convinced that Divine Soul 9/Hexblade Tomelock 3/something else is the best build. If you go higher in Warlock you get an extra invocation or two, but none that are incredibly useful since you aren't blade pact, and you get higher level pact magic which is useless since you have infinite spells once you have a few weeks travel time. (Side note: If anyone wants to play this at a table I would recommend only doing the Sorlock Shuffle on nights when the rest of the party is also recovering with a long rest. If you keep it to just adventuring days like this you will still end up at infinite spells, but it is a slow burn instead of the other way.) Going above Sorcerer 9 gets you spell slots you can't use, extra sorcerer points cap that doesn't matter, and 5 more spells known. You could go to 10 and get an extra metamagic if there is one you really want, but twinned/quicken are the obvious winners at level 3.
    Great points. I do think taking Sorc 10 could be worth it for the additional 5th-level spell known and metamagic--subtle especially opens lots of doors. (And then if you know you're playing to 20, Wish might be worth sticking around for). But yeah with 7-8 more levels to play with, you can do some really amazing things by adding another class.

    Paladin is definitely a great choice.

    Just some brainstorming here:

    -Another way to go is, with a huge/infinite battery of 1-5th spell slots, having more spell choices to spend them on could be a good fit. Wizard has the biggest list, and some neat bonuses depending on subclass. It is MAD, but no more MAD than Paladin. There is, however, a good amount of overlap with the sorcerer and warlock spell lists; also if you went Tomelock and got the ritual book, that's even more overlap.

    -Lore bard might be a stronger choice. A moderately different spell list, Cha caster so it's SAD, ability to snatch the best spells from other lists at 6, plus a few other goodies (cutting words, jack of all trades, expertise).

    -Alternately, if you wanted to up your EB blasting capabilities, you could go Fighter 2 for Action Surge, and possibly Assassin 3 for surprise round auto-crits.
    Last edited by Zene; 2017-11-17 at 11:25 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    Great points. I do think taking Sorc 10 could be worth it for the metamagic; subtle especially opens lots of doors. But yeah with 7-8 more levels to play with, you can do some really amazing things.

    Paladin is definitely a great choice.

    Just some brainstorming here:

    -Another way to go is, with a huge/infinite battery of 1-5th spell slots, having more spell choices to spend them on could be a good fit. Wizard has the biggest list, and some neat bonuses depending on subclass. It is MAD, but no more MAD than Paladin. There is, however, a good amount of overlap with the sorcerer and warlock spell lists; also if you went Tomelock and got the ritual book, that's even more overlap.

    -Lore bard might be a stronger choice. A moderately different spell list, Cha caster so it's SAD, ability to snatch the best spells from other lists at 6, plus a few other goodies (cutting words, jack of all trades, expertise).

    -Alternately, if you wanted to up your EB blasting capabilities, you could go Fighter 2 for Action Surge, and possibly Assassin 3 for surprise round auto-crits.
    I like Lore Bard a lot. Having ribbons is great to go along with your maxed Charisma; it means that not only are you ultra effective in combat you can do the out of combat things too. Magical Secrets at 6 is perfect for this build.

    Sorcerer 9/Warlock 3/Paladin 6/Fighter 2 does 28d8 in just smites and booming blade alone, then you add in your Cha and weapon damage and you obliterate anything on turn 1.

    The great thing is that you have flexibility (besides the MADness of multiclassing in general) with what you can do. Your third class can fill whatever role you like in the build since it is so solid with its base.

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Finishing warlock may be good to get the most out of Book of Ancient Secrets. You can't afford this with just three levels of warlock, agonizing EB is better and Book only lets you ritual cast spells of level up to half your warlock level.

    Get both Sorc and warlock to ten and you have three meta magics, have unlimited access to 5th level spells from two lists, and can cast all of the rituals.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Now taking bets on the next errata:

    Created sorc spell slots go away after a long rest or 24 hours, whichever comes first.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by mgshamster View Post
    Now taking bets on the next errata:

    Created sorc spell slots go away after a long rest or 24 hours, whichever comes first.
    Or: "You may only create spell points from spell slots that regenerate on a long rest."
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Finishing warlock may be good to get the most out of Book of Ancient Secrets. You can't afford this with just three levels of warlock, agonizing EB is better and Book only lets you ritual cast spells of level up to half your warlock level.

    Get both Sorc and warlock to ten and you have three meta magics, have unlimited access to 5th level spells from two lists, and can cast all of the rituals.
    IDK, if you’re gonna stay out a 20 level build, they’re all casting levels (including sorcerer), and you don’t have Wish, I’m not loving it.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Throwing this in there as well, for the "I'd just call 8 hours of short tests a long rest" crowd. Per JC:

    "The intent is that you can't take a short rest and a long rest at the same time. #DnD https://twitter.com/swindxgm/status/750439950210961408 …"

    I believe there are some small abuses you can come up with if you can overlap Rests. Though certainly none as grand as the coffeelock.

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    IDK, if you’re gonna stay out a 20 level build, they’re all casting levels (including sorcerer), and you don’t have Wish, I’m not loving it.
    Flexible casting only allows you to create spell slots up to 5th level. The coffeelock never takes a long rest, so he'd only ever get one casting of spell slots of level 6+. Since you never recover anything that only comes back on a long rest, it's actually a surprising limitation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Throwing this in there as well, for the "I'd just call 8 hours of short tests a long rest" crowd. Per JC:

    "The intent is that you can't take a short rest and a long rest at the same time. #DnD https://twitter.com/swindxgm/status/750439950210961408 …"

    I believe there are some small abuses you can come up with if you can overlap Rests. Though certainly none as grand as the coffeelock.
    Easily resolved by taking seven in a row then making sure you do something that definitely doesn't count as light activity, even if you had to intentionally damage yourself. But honestly, if your DM doesn't want you to do this then you ain't doing it regardless.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2017-11-18 at 12:17 PM.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Finishing warlock may be good to get the most out of Book of Ancient Secrets. You can't afford this with just three levels of warlock, agonizing EB is better and Book only lets you ritual cast spells of level up to half your warlock level.

    Get both Sorc and warlock to ten and you have three meta magics, have unlimited access to 5th level spells from two lists, and can cast all of the rituals.
    Good point. I tried a hypothetical build with only 2 invocations; it didn’t work without making kind of awkward sacrifices to some of the key benefits of the build. I like the 10/10 split a little better in the end game , and progression is smoother.

    Quote Originally Posted by mgshamster View Post
    Now taking bets on the next errata:

    Created sorc spell slots go away after a long rest or 24 hours, whichever comes first.
    Eh, I think it’s safe. They never did that to the old coffeelock; and while this new one can do some very cool things, it also requires 2-3 invocations dedicated to it and not progressing much past 5th level spells. Probably not worth a further errata

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    What's hilarious is people assume the player determines what does or does not count as a long rest or a short rest.

    4 hours of rest then 4 x 1 hour breaks IMG is a long rest, I don't care how you spin it.
    Except the rule states it's never mandatory to take a long rest, so you as the player can state it was a short rest. Especially as you're casting/using slots, then recharging them every hour.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Or: "You may only create spell points from spell slots that regenerate on a long rest."
    All spell slots are equal, just that some are more equal than others.

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    All spell slots are equal, just that some are more equal than others.
    That's just slot shaming.
    Argue in good faith.

    And try to remember that these are people.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    Eh, I think it’s safe. They never did that to the old coffeelock; and while this new one can do some very cool things, it also requires 2-3 invocations dedicated to it and not progressing much past 5th level spells. Probably not worth a further errata
    Pretty much. Its been years since the coffee first started to flow, and that was before the first errata came out. If they wanted to fix it, they would have. I never really thought the coffee lock was overpowered, since it never got 6+ level spells, so while it might bring a lot of small spells to the table, it never gets to disintegrate anything.

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Meta's Avatar

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    I would go the paladin/fighter MC as well. Adds some burst damage and the saving throw buff is great. For a level 20 build you're competing with some heavy hitters. You're already going to be able to grind out most foes, so buff the saving throws to not just lose to save or suck, and the burst damage to actually threaten them before they get a level 8 spell or whatever off seems more valuable.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
    Banned
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    With that, this character is convincingly the best healer. This is getting pretty bad. The sheer versatility of this build is astonishing.
    • Infinite Blink + Mirror Image + Shield + False Life + Absorb Elements: best defense
    • Infinite Dimension Door: best evasion
    • Infinite heals and buffs: best support
    • Infinite twinned Hold or Banishment: best control
    • Infinite empowered lightning bolts, quickened EB spam: best DPR
    • Infinite greater invisibility and subtle nukes: best assassin

    I think the only thing this character can't break is saving throws.

    To be still better.

    Divine Soul 17/ Tomelock 3


    1) Divine Soul pick Wish: Duplicating Simulacrum


    2) Twin Empowered Dragon's Breath (Familiar and Divine Soul or allies). The Simulacrum duplicate the trick. Yes, It's 4 Empowered Dragon's Breath per round (It's a ****ing high damage).

    3) Subtle Silence+ Mage Slayer feat + Sentinel feat can be devasting against spellcasters. Subtle Gear is potent too.

    4) If you want a good healing = Twin Empowered Life Transference (Simulacrum's healing), or Simulacrum's Quicken Revify or Quicken Death Ward.

    5) Also, Wish: Duplicating Contingency Spell. Revify Spell + Contingency Spell can be really good.

    6) Twin Greater Invisibility + Subtle Enemie Abound. (OMG, It's savagery)


    Twin Empowered Life Transcerence + Empowered Healing can heal more than 250 hp.
    Last edited by Arguus; 2017-11-18 at 10:43 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Arguus View Post
    To be still better.

    Divine Soul 17/ Tomelock 3


    1) Divine Soul pick Wish: Duplicating Simulacrum


    2) Twin Empowered Dragon's Breath (Familiar and Divine Soul or allies). The Simulacrum duplicate the trick. Yes, It's 4 Empowered Dragon's Breath per round (It's a ****ing high damage).

    3) Subtle Silence+ Mage Slayer feat + Sentinel feat can be devasting against spellcasters. Subtle Gear is potent too.

    4) If you want a good healing = Twin Empowered Life Transference (Simulacrum's healing), or Simulacrum's Quicken Revify or Quicken Death Ward.

    5) Also, Wish: Duplicating Contingency Spell. Revify Spell + Contingency Spell can be really good.

    6) Twin Greater Invisibility + Subtle Enemie Abound. (OMG, It's savagery)


    Twin Empowered Life Transcerence + Empowered Healing can heal more than 250 hp.
    Since this build only lets you cast one ninth level spell ever, I guess it is the ultimate RP for Wish.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by melvinmelon123 View Post
    Since this build only lets you cast one ninth level spell ever, I guess it is the ultimate RP for Wish.
    Yes, but The Simulacrum hasn't duration(Until Dispelled) and Contingency Spell has 10 days duration. You could cast it previously.
    Right?
    Last edited by Arguus; 2017-11-18 at 10:57 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    I rather like combining this build idea with this other one that's also based around a Hexblade Sorcerer
    http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...17)-Hexblade(3)

  21. - Top - End - #111
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    These seem awesome builds, I might use some in the future for AL.
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    Malik Hammerson-VHuman- Ranger (Hunter) 4/Cleric (War) 4: "MY LIFE SUCKS!"
    Valicus Pyr'Ticosta-High Elf-Wizard (Bladesinger) 9: "You killed my father! And Sister! And a few of my guards! Prepare to die!"
    Zarkelthore Surfacekin-Half Drow-Ranger (Hunter) 6: "What's a Sun? Why are you laughing?"

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    So this thread has inspired me to make a new version of my previous AL sorclock, a Yuan-Ti GOO Chain Pact Warlock 3 / Dragon Sorcerer 16. It was an EB blaster build, so I'm going to focus the new one along the same lines. But with some massive improvements thanks to XGE.

    For anyone interested, here's the new build:
    Spoiler: Sorclock Jr.
    Show

    • Half-elf with point buy, 17 Cha 16 Con 16 Dex
    • Starts as Sorcerer (Divine Soul), for con save proficiency.
    • Hexblade dip for 2 levels: Repelling Blast and Agonizing Blast invocations.
    • Then takes Divine Soul at least to 9, but possibly all the way to 17, before taking the last warlock level (which will be Pact of the Tome, and the Aspect of the Moon invocation). The reasoning is I don't want to slow down sorcerer spell progression or access to wish any more than absolutely necessary; and I'm confident that I'll be able to do the coffeelock 8-short-rest thing --whenever it's not smarter to just long rest and refill the full spell tree and sorc point pool-- and pass any con saves for exhaustion, or just use Greater Restoration from L9 onward.
    • Metamagics: Quicken and Twin, then Subtle, then Heightened
    • Feats: Elven Accuracy, Warcaster, Lucky, Alert
    • Key Hexblade spells:
      • Eldritch Blast,
      • Shield,
      • Armor of Agathys,
      • eventually Hex and Misty Step
    • Key Divine Soul spells:
      • Absorb Elements
      • Aid
      • Death Ward
      • Greater Invisibility (until the Cloak of Invisibility becomes available)
      • Greater Restoration
      • Wish
      • Other spells I'll probably take:
      • Guidance
      • Scorching Ray
      • Spirit Guardians
      • Bestow Curse
      • Geas
      • Mass Suggestion
      • Crown of Stars
    • AL quirks:
      • No need to spend ASIs on charisma, since I'll be able to run Amber Temple in T2 to bump Cha to 22; then get a tome to bump it to 24 in T3.
      • Magic Items will eventually be:
        • a Broom of Flying,
        • a Staff of Swarming Insects (until Greater Invisibility comes online at DS7),
        • a Staff of Power,
        • a Rod of the Pact Keeper +3,
        • and eventually a Cloak of Invisibility --all "inherited" (i.e. traded) from Sorclock Sr.;
        • as well as a +3 Shield and
        • (if I can find it) +x medium armor.


    Based on my experience with Sorclock Sr, this will be a blast (heh) to play from L5 on up.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by melvinmelon123 View Post
    . You can never be forced to take a long rest, you have to willingly do it with full knowledge.
    Source for this?

    8 hours of nothing more than light activity is a long rest whether you will it to happen or otherwise.

    Of course resting is DM dependent (like everything) in any event.

    The DM simply tells you 4 hours of rest plus 1 hour rest (dash for round) 1 hour rest (dash for a round) etc is a long rest.

    What kind of ******** would actually try this in play, and what kind of DM must they have to think they could even try it?

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Source for this?
    Xanathar's in the ruleset about lack of sleep penalty. One of the first sentences "It is never mandatory to take a long rest".

    8 hours of nothing more than light activity is a long rest whether you will it to happen or otherwise.
    Unless you choose to make it 8 short rests, which is your prerogative.

    Of course resting is DM dependent (like everything) in any event.

    The DM simply tells you 4 hours of rest plus 1 hour rest (dash for round) 1 hour rest (dash for a round) etc is a long rest.
    Except it isn't.

    What kind of ******** would actually try this in play, and what kind of DM must they have to think they could even try it?
    What kind of ******** would call players ******** for trying this in play, one could ask.
    Last edited by Mikal; 2017-11-19 at 07:17 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post

    What kind of ******** would call players ******** for trying this in play, one could ask.
    Every single DM.

    Seriously. Try it (4 hours rest then 1 hours rest and a round of dashing x4) and see how it flies.

    It's just bull**** attempted gaming of the rest mechanic by bad players. You'd be flat out booted from my table for even suggesting it.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Every single DM.

    Seriously. Try it (4 hours rest then 1 hours rest and a round of dashing x4) and see how it flies.

    It's just bull**** attempted gaming of the rest mechanic by bad players. You'd be flat out booted from my table for even suggesting it.
    Player's using the rules as written are not bad players. If WotC didn't want us to do things like this, then there should be an errata made for it. If there eventually is one, I'm sure threads like this wont get past the first page as people will be informed about it. Until then, it's up to the players to try this and up to the DM's of individual games to decide to house rule against the rules.

    Seriously, there is no reason for a forum censor to show up in polite discussion. This is about a game we all come to have fun with, can we all remain civil? :-)

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Raktus View Post
    Player's using the rules as written are not bad players. If WotC didn't want us to do things like this, then there should be an errata made for it. If there eventually is one, I'm sure threads like this wont get past the first page as people will be informed about it
    Players being gamist ***** and attempting to 'exploit' or 'game' the rules are bad players. This is a cooperative game after all.

    Players whinge when DMs make rulings but then try and exploit rules loopholes without blinking.

    If this kind of thing seriously flies at your table we're playing very different games. Your DM needs a taking to as well.

    IMG your PC attempting to game the rest mechanic just doesn't get the benefits of a rest of any kind. It happens the once.

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Every single DM.

    Seriously. Try it (4 hours rest then 1 hours rest and a round of dashing x4) and see how it flies.

    It's just bull**** attempted gaming of the rest mechanic by bad players. You'd be flat out booted from my table for even suggesting it.
    The problem with absolute statements like this is they're never universal. I'm a DM and I think this build is hilarious.

    The DM can do anything. If you can't figure out how to challenge a player whose only gimmick is infinite spell slots, you need to be more creative.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Every single DM.

    Seriously. Try it (4 hours rest then 1 hours rest and a round of dashing x4) and see how it flies.

    It's just bull**** attempted gaming of the rest mechanic by bad players. You'd be flat out booted from my table for even suggesting it.
    You are free to make up rules as a DM whenever you want a your table. I don't think berating people and calling others bad players is helping anything though. This build is fully AL legal, so anyone who goes to AL can use it freely as those DMs don't have the authority to make house rules.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Hexblade Coffeelock

    I can't imagine the DM that I play with regularly allowing this sort of extreme munchkin gameplay, since I don't think this build even qualifies as optimization - it's just trying to break the game in my opinion.

    While it may be AL "legal" because it obeys RAW (but certainly not RAF), I imagine it would irritate (never a good idea) a lot of AL DMs and cause them to add more foes to encounters to keep things challenging for the group.

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