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    Getting a thread started.

    I've only seen the first two episodes so far. It's fantastic. Definitely the anti-hero.

    It feels good to root for "Shane".
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    Great so far (episode 4).

    The weirdest thing about the show so far is how attractive he is with long hair and a beard. Like, blush inspiringly so.
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

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    I think this is the best of the Marvel Netflix series so far. It's the one that has the best plot structure for their slow pace, being a twisty conspiracy thriller where everyone is working different angles of the same problems.

    The A and B stories dovetail well, it conveys the character themes well by showing the different ways different characters have been damaged by their experiences in war and how they haven't left it behind.

    I also like that Frank is not just an angry man with a gun, and being an angry man with a gun is almost never what actually solves his problems (It's usually his ability and willingness to take punishment rather than inflict it, as seen early on with the DHS chief where he sets him up to gloat to get info).

    I did think the very end was a bit of an obvious setup though.
    Spoiler: Very end
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    There's nothing in Frank's character to date that would make him think letting Russo live with a ****ed up face would be better than killing him. Frank hadn't changed in any way that would make him do that, it's blatant act of writer setting him up to be Jigsaw and it sat awkwardly with an otherwise consistent character portrayal.

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    It was decent. Better than IF, Defenders, JJ, about on par with DD (fewer highs and lows than DD), worse than LC. Far less good than AC.
    It was a bit bloated at 13 episodes and while none of the bits were actually bad, I felt a lot of it wasn't good enough to warrant inclusion. It was also a bit too slow and dramatic/intriguey rather than action-filled. We watch the Punisher for punishing, and the show was rather light on that. What there was was good. He's certainly about as sympathetic a Punisher as you can make, which may or may not appeal to you more than the rather more horrible versions I've been told exist.
    I'd say his part in DD2 was better than this show.

    I'm also amazed at how many bullets a guy can take with no significant damage.

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    On the bloat, I feel like this show (and several others in the Marvel Netflix boat) started to feel a bit bloated around episode 8. I forget if it's that episode in particular or not, but somewhere in the 7-10 range. I think most of the other series felt that way to me, too.

    So far I'm enjoying it a lot. I noticed a clear divergence from some of the other Netflix's, regarding killing, when
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    Frank killed Carson Wolf. The guy seemed set up to be an obstacle for several episodes, but that he was offed so quickly really showed how we wouldn't have one bad guy with political connections being a problem simply because the hero wouldn't kill him. (That is, being willing to kill. We later run into some issues where knowing who to kill or finding a way to kill them is an issue.)

    Of course, we expect death in a Punisher series, but how it would differ from other series really hit home with that scene.

    I'm looking forward to watching the rest.

    Also, as a father, some of the scenes got me teary-eyed, which is something I appreciate in a show.

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    Just tell me it hasn't got the Hand in it, and I might be tempted to give it a go.

    Also, are there any cameos by members of the defenders?

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    Quote Originally Posted by paddyfool View Post
    Just tell me it hasn't got the Hand in it, and I might be tempted to give it a go.

    Also, are there any cameos by members of the defenders?
    RE Hand (but also other spoilers... sorta)
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    At least 2/3s in, no Hand.

    I'm actually kinda surprised at how mundane everything is. Sure, Punisher does amazing stuff, but there's nothing really superhuman. I don't think we've even seen supertech. It fits the series great, (even if not my personal taste.)

    Putting this in spoiler in case someone considers the lack of a superhuman a spoiler.

    I think maybe there was some allusion to a super, but in passing. No cameos, at least so far. Karen Page from Daredevil shows up.


    I think there was some allusion to a Luke or Cage, but it wasn't actually to Luke Cage but to someone else from real life. But maybe I misunderstood/misheard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paddyfool View Post
    Just tell me it hasn't got the Hand in it, and I might be tempted to give it a go.

    Also, are there any cameos by members of the defenders?
    No Hand, thankfully. The only vaguely Defenders related character was Karen Page and her editor.

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    Yeah, it's almost completely separate from the other Netflix series.



    Also I kept wanting Shoreh Aghdashloo to break out the full Avasarala, but that's a completely different show.

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    I don't know if I'm more happy about it being such a bloodfest (in the sense that The Punisher is vs the regular comics) or the fact that
    Spoiler: Finally
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    There is no Claire in this series. Still two episodes to finish the show, please don't correct me if wrong


    I love Karen on this one, just as much as I loved her on the last part of DD2 (I don't like her that much in the other scenes). Punisher's performance is so on spot with the comics version that I think it's the best translation from comic to any other media that ever was on a comic character. He is so friggin awesome.

    I love action movies, and specially those filled with intrigue. This series fulfilled all my expectations and a lil more. I am truly satisfied.
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    But really, don't let the wife of your Not Dead jewish friend caught you by surprise and kiss you. Castle is such a dork .
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    I have to agree. It does feel a little bloated. They could have cut the one story arc, and kept the main one. This show is good, but is a lot less Punisher-ingly as I was hoping. Of course i am only 10 episodes in.. hoping the family angle pays off with some Punishingly good times.

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    I'm not thrilled with the PTSD Soldier story. I'm sure somehow his story will eventually connect to our main story, but right now (finished episode 8) his story has been a waste of time.
    Last edited by Pex; 2017-11-21 at 12:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I'm not thrilled with the PTSD Soldier story. I'm sure somehow his story will eventually connect to our main story, but right now (finished episode 8) his story has been a waste of time.
    I also felt like that added bloat to the series, similar to the bloat most Netflix Marvel have. I do think it worked very well for showing the themes I think the show is trying to relay messages about (though honestly I'm not 100% sure what the messages are meant to be, beyond some version of "it's complicated", and the themes are political stuff not appropriate for discussion on these forums), but regarding the story of Frank Castle, 'tis bloat.

    The side story is used in a way that ties it into the main story -- won't say how, except info winds up being revealed to one or more parties as a side effect of the soldier's actions -- and, honestly, it was a really cool transmission of intel. BUT it could have been another way, or even if they wanted to keep it the same conclusion, have had less build up and development of the soldier. But I reckon they decided the bloat was worth the thematic elements it added (plus padding the series a few more episodes.)

    I've got just 1 or 2 to go. A good side effect of an infant that won't go to sleep is that I can stay up rocking the kid while watching Netflix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I'm not thrilled with the PTSD Soldier story. I'm sure somehow his story will eventually connect to our main story, but right now (finished episode 8) his story has been a waste of time.
    Even if it didn't the fact that he provides a contrast to Frank as a person who is so obviously in the same place mentally and shows all Frank's failing and vulnerabilities would make him worthwhile.

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    Just finished it earlier tonight.

    One question from the ending
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    The way they showed Billy in the hospital at the end, mixed with the dramatic music, made me think his visage should be recognized as some villain. But I'm not real knowledgable about Punisher lore. Anyone know if Billy Russo becomes a villain in the comics, or anyone recognize that look as a villain?


    All in all, I was happy about the ending and how things ended for everybody. Though
    Spoiler
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    the Thanksgiving dinner scene made me nervous, thinking that maybe that one nightmare Frank had about everyone dying at dinner would come to pass. I was almost relieved when he didn't sit down to eat, since I was worried maybe the Lieberman family's death would be the set-up for a season 2. I'm real glad the Lieberman's got the happy ending the Castle's did not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Great so far (episode 4).

    The weirdest thing about the show so far is how attractive he is with long hair and a beard. Like, blush inspiringly so.
    I know right, I don't even like beards as a general preference or his kind of bulky build but I was really sad to see him shave.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Just finished it earlier tonight.

    One question from the ending
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    The way they showed Billy in the hospital at the end, mixed with the dramatic music, made me think his visage should be recognized as some villain. But I'm not real knowledgable about Punisher lore. Anyone know if Billy Russo becomes a villain in the comics, or anyone recognize that look as a villain?
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    Billy Russo is the name of Jigsaw, one of the few recurring Punisher villains, and arguably his nemesis.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2017-11-24 at 11:51 PM.

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    Finished.

    PTSD Soldier story was unnecessary. If it's trying to contrast how Frank Castle is different it was a point that didn't need to be made. It would have worked better if Castle was shown being more of an anti-hero going after bad guys. It started that way at first going after mafia guys and co-workers, but the show soon after went for the Conspiracy story. Castle went after PTSd Soldier because he threatened Karen, not to be a hero.

    I do have a theory on how the PTSD Soldier story is relevant based on something I noticed about the show, but it will break Forum rules to discuss.
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    "The DM is the world, the gods, the trees and the bees. But no matter what covenant is struck or words exchanged, the DM is not the PCs."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Finished.

    PTSD Soldier story was unnecessary. If it's trying to contrast how Frank Castle is different it was a point that didn't need to be made. It would have worked better if Castle was shown being more of an anti-hero going after bad guys. It started that way at first going after mafia guys and co-workers, but the show soon after went for the Conspiracy story. Castle went after PTSd Soldier because he threatened Karen, not to be a hero.

    I do have a theory on how the PTSD Soldier story is relevant based on something I noticed about the show, but it will break Forum rules to discuss.
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    He is based on the story of Timothy Mcveigh
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
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    He is based on the story of Timothy Mcveigh
    I noticed the similarity but not my reference. Again, can't clarify. Anyone who really wants to know I'm willing to discuss in private mail. I won't take it personally if no one does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I noticed the similarity but not my reference. Again, can't clarify. Anyone who really wants to know I'm willing to discuss in private mail. I won't take it personally if no one does.
    Well I want to know, message it to me >;/
    Now if everyone could please "Sig" something along the lines of "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)", I think that would be good progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    Billy Russo is the name of Jigsaw, one of the few recurring Punisher villains, and arguably his nemesis.
    I'm really glad I didn't know that from the comics before watching this.

    One thing I loved about this show was that I first thought it was subverting a trope (details in spoiler). That it actually wasn't was a bit disappointing, but if I had known that, I would have known immediately what to suspect.
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    When Billy was introduced, he was the fancy prick. Usually, the fancy prick turns out to be evil, and he seemed pegged for that eventual reveal. But then he is shown to really care about Castle and to be a loyal friend, like the scenes with Curtis. I thought it was really cool that the egotistical prick was, if not a Good guy, at least a good guy on the hero's team.

    It was a surprise to learn he was working with Agent Orange, one of the few reveals that really surprised me in a lot of shows. (When I saw the teams running around while he was waiting for Castle at the docks, I was at first confused but then figured it was an Anvil assault team prepping for a mission, and something Frank could hide in. Didn't occur to me that it was a death squad meant for him.)

    And then just kinda went into the old trope as we learn what a sociopath he is. Fit the story cool, though disappointing compared to how I thought Billy's character would be used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    I did think the very end was a bit of an obvious setup though.
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    There's nothing in Frank's character to date that would make him think letting Russo live with a ****ed up face would be better than killing him. Frank hadn't changed in any way that would make him do that, it's blatant act of writer setting him up to be Jigsaw and it sat awkwardly with an otherwise consistent character portrayal.
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    After spoiling myself with your post I kept an eye out for possible foreshadowing, and one line stuck out for me. Frank and Billy were discussing Billy's limitless, compulsive, materialistic ambition, and Billy said that it was about what you see when you look in the mirror. I think it's also partially because this is the first time Frank went after someone who he actually used to care about, IIRC, and so he felt it wasn't enough to kill him. He needed to suffer, long term. And besides, with those injuries it's not like he'd ever wake up, seek vengeance AND be able to pose a threat, riiiight??? DUNDUNDUN
    Last edited by Marillion; 2017-11-26 at 12:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I do have a theory on how the PTSD Soldier story is relevant based on something I noticed about the show, but it will break Forum rules to discuss.
    Patriotism as it manifests in the U.S. is a pretty major thematic element throughout the show, and that's pretty intrinsically political. When it then gets explored through political violence, characters protesting and working for the government (in pretty directly political organizations even), and straight up constitutional issues it pushes more than a little past forum rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I'm not thrilled with the PTSD Soldier story. I'm sure somehow his story will eventually connect to our main story, but right now (finished episode 8) his story has been a waste of time.
    I actually really liked that plotline. I kinda hate how it eventually tied into the main plotline, though. Ended up feeling really hamfisted, like the writers didn't know how to take the next step so they just shoved everyone in the same room hotel and give things a good shake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crayzz View Post
    I actually really liked that plotline. I kinda hate how it eventually tied into the main plotline, though. Ended up feeling really hamfisted, like the writers didn't know how to take the next step so they just shoved everyone in the same room hotel and give things a good shake.
    I take that as evidence the story was irrelevant. I can appreciate they enabled empathy for the soldier. The show has you want to like him before his turning, and even afterwards despite his actions it's hard on the audience to hate him. Credit may be due the actor for some of that. Contrast to "Prince Caspian" whom we can revile immediately after his Team Bad Guy reveal. Not meaning anything against Ben Barnes, I mean the character did not garner empathy. We thought he was a friend, so in a way he betrayed the audience too. However, the "hamfisted" connection to our main story shows it was not essential. Take everything of the Soldier's story away and the series would remain consistent and whole.
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    If anything, the PTSD soldier's story contributed something to Curtis' story rather than the Punisher's story. A real life parallel is not enough to justify its placement in my opinion. I am open to receiving a PM on further information regarding the matter.

    Curtis was too much of a side character for me to accept a subplot for him that ties into the main plot.

    Dinah Madani felt like Misty Knight 2 in my opinion. A cop who is ultimately on the same side, but who wants to arrest the protagonist and put them through the legal system. She also seems to have the ability to visualize a crime scene.

    Where did the continuity fit relative to Defenders? I expected a Daredevil cameo if Karen Page was going to get tied to the plot in that particular manner.

    I do not have strong feelings about Claire Temple, but I am glad she did not make an appearance. She just does not fit in with the Punisher's story, and her personality would lead to a clash between the two of them.

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    Where did the continuity fit relative to Defenders? I expected a Daredevil cameo if Karen Page was going to get tied to the plot in that particular manner.
    The Punisher takes place after the Defenders.

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    Hence why a Daredevil cameo wasn't possible. He's allegedly dead. That's why Karen seemed so upset when interacting with Castle, because she's still mourning him.

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    Yeah, I figured that the opening montage was a quasi where was Frank during defenders.

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    In hindsight, it makes sense the continuity would follow the order in which the shows were available.

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