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Thread: Punisher

  1. - Top - End - #31
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Punisher

    Quote Originally Posted by random_guy View Post
    In hindsight, it makes sense the continuity would follow the order in which the shows were available.
    That's the best of MCU/series. They show some respect for casual and hardcore fans when it comes to timelines

    I liked Curtis, but probably I'm biased because I'm a big fan of Falcon and his relationship with the Cap. He reminded me a lot about him (altho their dynamic is different, because Puni isn't the Cap). BTW, the PTSD and the veteran topic was something kind of unavoidable, given the plotline they were following. Castle is a PTSD victim after all, and someone who is ultimately bat**** crazy. Painting veterans/PTSDvictims solely from Castle's perspective wouldn't have been good for the show. That's why I think the writers made a good call when they took time to show the public that veterans are also people, y'know? Whatever you think of the political commentary; at least they provided a variety of characters and backgrounds enough to humanize veterans and prevent people from stereotyping them as Castle wannabes. Because if there's one thing people love to do, is stereotyping what they don't know.

    And I disagree the "Unibomber" plotline was completely unrelated. They used it as a plot device to pave the manner in which
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    Castle discovers Billy is a traitor. Sure, they could have framed it a different way; but there weren't many ways in which Frank could have discovered the plot without finding himself waist-deep in a trap where he couldn't plausibly escape. They set up a pretty much escapable trap for him, which ultimately allowed the tension to escalate during the later chapters.

    And also, that chapter was written pretty decently. I like episodes where they don't follow a linear timeline, specially on detective series. I personally enjoyed it. That doesn't mean I necessarily enjoyed the kid's story previous to that.
    Last edited by Lord Joeltion; 2017-11-28 at 10:05 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Like all marvel TV series, started watching, didn't finish. My problem with the show is the same as for all the Marvel TV series. The filler. It's got promise, there's good stuff in there, but it's just...drug out a lot.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    AssassinGuy

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    I think Curtis has potential, he just does not have enough screen time to fully realize it. In Jessica Jones, Patsy went back and forth between being a damsel in distress and a supporting character. Daredevil had Foggy as a sort of voice of reason and conscience. Pop's death motivated Luke Cage into taking action. Danny Rand had something or other between Coleen and the Meachums. I feel that Curtis fills in some kind of role in between Patsy and Foggy for the Punisher. He isn't as naive as Danny, so he does not need someone to explain how corporate America works. His family is already, dead, so he has all of the motivation he needs. Curtis acts as a voice of reason to the Punisher. He provides a reminder that there is life after the war, and the Punisher is pretty much in a constant war. He also serves as a more human connection to the Punisher. Patsy's connection to Jessica as a sister figure is similar to Curtis' past in the same marine unit as Frank.

    As far as the Unibomber plotline:
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    Billy revealed his involvement himself. Any situation where Madani ended in a stand off with Castle would have resulted in the same outcome. His interest in silencing Castle gave it away. Also, when Monty Bennett's phone was bugged, they could have rigged it [they did not on the show] to pick up conversations. That could have given away Billy's involvement, given the conversation that took place with Agent Orange. There are a number of ways to resolve it without the Unibomber plot.


    I do not necessarily think the alternatives are better than keeping the plot. I just think it was one of the weaker parts of the show. The parallel between him and Frank do not pan out very well either. If they had more similarities, then I might have been able to buy it. As it stands, they are two completely different characters and their only connection is a military past. Curtis is a better parallel.
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    Curtis admits to suffering from PTSD and constantly keeps a gun at hand. He says that running the support group helps him cope with it. I also believe it is implied he is not doing well financially, and Billy financially supports him to a certain extent. Whereas Frank copes by taking action, Curtis copes by diverting his focus to something more constructive. They were in the same military unit and shared the same experiences.


    I would say that Gunner Henderson is a good comparison as well.

    Essentially, his former marine buddies had the same experiences, but they each coped with it in a different way.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Just finished watching the show... Pretty good, if I dare say so. Not as good as DD season 1, but on par with DD season 2 and leagues better than any other Marvel Netflix series (with the possible exception of Agent Carter, which I can't judge because I haven't seen it yet. I'll try to do it now that I'm on vacation).

    The PTSD soldier storyline did feel like filler at times, but it also added more substance to Curtis as a character and gave him a chance to shine, which is good. Having Frank and Billy as the only vets in the show would send the wrong message. With the Bomber storyline, we see through Lewis how difficult dealing with PTSD and readjusting to civilian life can be, but we also see through Curtis that it's not only possible to do it (even if it requires working on it constantly), but also possible to do it while helping others.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    RE Hand (but also other spoilers... sorta)
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    At least 2/3s in, no Hand.

    I'm actually kinda surprised at how mundane everything is. Sure, Punisher does amazing stuff, but there's nothing really superhuman. I don't think we've even seen supertech. It fits the series great, (even if not my personal taste.)

    Putting this in spoiler in case someone considers the lack of a superhuman a spoiler.

    I think maybe there was some allusion to a super, but in passing. No cameos, at least so far. Karen Page from Daredevil shows up.
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    Towards the end of the series, they start portraying Frank as downright superhuman, especially in his ability to resist injuries and recover from them. Episode 12 ends with him being beaten mostly to death, getting a shot of adrenaline that lets him take down Rawlins, and then needing to be resuscitated after he collapses. Episode 13 features him fighting a mostly uninjured Russo in hand to hand combat, and still clearly dominating the fight.

    Did I miss something where Frank spent six months in the hospital recovering from his injuries in between episodes? Or did that seriously happen the day after he nearly died?
    Last edited by Mikeavelli; 2017-12-31 at 06:09 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    To be fair, Matt in Daredevil is also uncommonly resistant to injury.

    Punisher is usually presented as having a ludicrously high pain tolerance and ability to function after being shot, stabbed, beaten, and generally abused like no human body should be

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeavelli View Post
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    Towards the end of the series, they start portraying Frank as downright superhuman, especially in his ability to resist injuries and recover from them. Episode 12 ends with him being beaten mostly to death, getting a shot of adrenaline that lets him take down Rawlins, and then needing to be resuscitated after he collapses. Episode 13 features him fighting a mostly uninjured Russo in hand to hand combat, and still clearly dominating the fight.

    Did I miss something where Frank spent six months in the hospital recovering from his injuries in between episodes? Or did that seriously happen the day after he nearly died?
    To be fair, that's standard plain human for comics. Don't misinterpret cinematic (comicatic?) narrative for superhuman abilities. It isn't anything that John McClane wouldn't be able to pull any other Saturday
    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    To be fair, Matt in Daredevil is also uncommonly resistant to injury.

    Punisher is usually presented as having a ludicrously high pain tolerance and ability to function after being shot, stabbed, beaten, and generally abused like no human body should be
    Daredevil is superhuman tho.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    There are a lot of things Frank does that are just Die Hard style "movie character non-superhuman" stuff. Casually dodging gunfire. Having a bullet bounce off his skull. Jumping down a stairwell and suffering only a slight, temporary limp because of it. Successfully running from the NYC cops despite having that limp.

    All of those things are a bit silly, but are within the realm of cinematic narrative.

    Getting beaten so hard he literally dies for a little bit, and coming back from that a few hours later to dominate in a fight against someone who should have the same level of training and experience as Frank is beyond belief.

    Last edited by Mikeavelli; 2018-01-01 at 09:26 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeavelli View Post
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    There are a lot of things Frank does that are just Die Hard style "movie character non-superhuman" stuff. Casually dodging gunfire. Having a bullet bounce off his skull. Jumping down a stairwell and suffering only a slight, temporary limp because of it. Successfully running from the NYC cops despite having that limp.

    All of those things are a bit silly, but are within the realm of cinematic narrative.

    Getting beaten so hard he literally dies for a little bit, and coming back from that a few hours later to dominate in a fight against someone who should have the same level of training and experience as Frank is beyond belief.

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    Ok, I see what you mean. Still, whether he actually dies or is simply having pain-induced hallucinations or entered a trance like-state by himself to resist the torture long enough, is at least open to debate. It never gave me the impression that he actually died at any point; IIRC the adrenalin shot was because he was severely weakened, not because he was having a system failure or something. Besides, torturers are usually sadists (at least in fiction) who prefer to make the minimal possible damage in order to extend the suffering of their victims. And the series never hinted either of them was on par with Castle's capabilities. He accomplished more by himself than whatever they actually pulled with lots of backup and the advantage of surprise (Castle was only prepared for the old factory assault). I think Castle's superiority was quite clear and consistent throughout the series.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    BardGuy

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    I'll admit that some of Castle's feats are a bit over the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeltion View Post
    Daredevil is superhuman tho.
    I thought his powers were just enhanced senses. Did he have enhanced agility, strength, or durability (beyond what could be considered 'cinematic mundane')?
    To bring in other characters: Daredevil (sans enhanced senses), Punisher, and Iron Fist (excluding when he summons his chi) all appear presented as mundane, despite being able to take a lot of punishment. Of the cinematic series on Netflix, the only protagonists with supernatural durability or strength seem to be Luke Cage and Jessica Jones (unless I'm forgetting a series/character.)
    Last edited by JeenLeen; 2018-01-02 at 01:39 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Lizardfolk

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    Matt confirms that his toughness comes from being a Murdock and not a super power in his first conversation with Claire.

    Basically his powers are a better version of bat sonar and being the best at fighting, beating Danny, Electra, Stick and 3 of the key Hand members (two at once in Defenders.)
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I thought his powers were just enhanced senses. Did he have enhanced agility, strength, or durability (beyond what could be considered 'cinematic mundane')?
    Comic book DD is beyond human feats in most of those aspects. True, he is no Wolverine or even Steve Rogers, but he can easily be considered "supersoldier" level on all those aspects. Bear in mind that a lot of Manhattan villains would 1-punched him every other day, if he hadn't those abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    To bring in other characters: Daredevil (sans enhanced senses), Punisher, and Iron Fist (excluding when he summons his chi) all appear presented as mundane, despite being able to take a lot of punishment. Of the cinematic series on Netflix, the only protagonists with supernatural durability or strength seem to be Luke Cage and Jessica Jones (unless I'm forgetting a series/character.)
    Iron Fist is presented as utterly inexperienced as of what the full scopes of his powers are. He can't even use his chi properly, while others "without the Fist" perform superhuman feats with little problem. Anyway, since he fought Luke basically on par, I wouldn't say he is "mundane" anyway. No human has a chance against Luke. I even doubt DD is his match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Matt confirms that his toughness comes from being a Murdock and not a super power in his first conversation with Claire.
    "Confirms".

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Basically his powers are a better version of bat sonar and being the best at fighting, beating Danny, Electra, Stick and 3 of the key Hand members (two at once in Defenders.)
    Elektra is superhuman tho. Specially after the rez spell.
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