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    Default RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: With an axe to grind
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    Hello and welcome to the 9th iteration of the RWBY threads!

    RWBY is an western made, anime style, 3d computer animation, freely available, web series, with variable length episodes, originally created by Monty Oum for Rooster Teeth. Unfortunately, Monty Oum has passed away, but his creation lives on.

    RWBY is pronounced "ruby" and is an acronym for the four main team members: Red, White, Black, Yellow - aka Ruby, Weiss, Blake, Yang. All of the main characters have some folklore, fairy tale, or historical reference, but are very much their own characters and are not based on that reference. In addition, every character (with the only known exception being Ozpin) and team name is based on a colour. While some are obvious, others need to be traced back a fair way to find something that is associated with a colour.

    Watch:
    First Episode: Rooster Teeth YouTube
    Latest Episode: Rooster Teeth
    Playlist: Rooster Teeth, YouTube

    Trailers:
    Red: Rooster Teeth YouTube
    White: Rooster Teeth YouTube
    Black: Rooster Teeth YouTube
    Yellow: Rooster Teeth YouTube
    Volume 4 - Ruby Character Short: Rooster Teeth YouTube
    Volume 5 - Weiss Character Short: Rooster Teeth YouTube
    Volume 5 - Blake Character Short: Rooster Teeth YouTube
    Volume 5 - Yang Character Short: Rooster Teeth YouTube

    Wikis:
    Wikia

    RWBY Chibi: Spoiler Warning (watch Volume 3 first)
    Playlist: Rooster Teeth YouTube

    Previous threads:
    0 - Rwby
    1 - RWBY (Ruby)
    2 - RWBY 2sday: Birdie, NO!!!
    3 - RWBY III: These kids just keep getting weirder.
    4 - RWBY IV: I Love These Guys
    5 - RWBY V: Inspired by Real Physics!
    6 - RWBY VI: This thread is also a gun tribute to Monty Oum
    7 - RWBY VII: Winter is coming here
    8 - RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

    New episodes are available to Rooster Teeth FIRST subscribers at 10:00am CST (4:00pm GMT) Saturday, then to the public at 10:00am CST (4:00pm GMT) Tuesday on the Rooster Teeth website (free membership required). A week after the initial release, episodes then become available on YouTube.

    Rawhide's viewing recommendation:
    Watch Episode 1 first, followed by the four trailers in order, then all remaining episodes starting with Episode 2 in order. You can skip all remaining trailers (and most bonus footage, such as opening titles animation) except the character shorts listed below, as they are your more traditional trailers made from scenes from the show, while the first four trailers are new footage and include story elements not included in the series proper. However, do not skip the World of Remnant videos, as they include useful information regarding things such as how the technology in the series works. Warning: Don't watch the first volume of RWBY Chibi until after completion of Volume 3, as it contains spoilers.

    Starting with Volume 4, RWBY introduced character shorts. Like the four initial trailers, these are canonical short stories that aren't repeated in the episodes.

    Watch between Volume 3 and 4:
    Ruby: Rooster Teeth YouTube

    Watch between Volume 4 and 5:
    Weiss: Rooster Teeth YouTube
    Blake: Rooster Teeth YouTube
    Yang: Rooster Teeth YouTube

    Notes on terminology:
    Throughout these threads you will see people refer to things as a volume, season, chapter, and episode. There is currently no functional difference between a volume and a season, so these two terms are currently synonymous. In most of their material, Rooster Teeth refer to a season as a volume.

    While it is largely synonymous, there is, however, an important distinction between chapter and episode that you should be aware of to prevent confusion. For Volume 1, 10 episodes (termed "chapters") were planned. However, in order to release one episode per week to the internet, Rooster Teeth opted to slice some of these chapters into two parts. This resulted in the 10 original chapters (released on the DVD and BluRay in their original 10 episode form) being split into 16 episodes on the web. This can make some things confusing when referring to the episode numbers between different mediums. Rooster Teeth have promised not to do this for future volumes.

    Spoiler: Volume 1 Chapter/Episode Breakdown
    Show
    Chapter Title Episodes
    1 Ruby Rose 1
    2 The Shining Beacon 2 & 3
    3 The First Step 4 & 5
    4 The Emerald Forest 6 & 7
    5 Players and Pieces 8
    6 The Badge and The Burden 9 & 10
    7 Jaunedice 11 & 12
    8 Forever Fall 13 & 14
    9 The Stray 15
    10 Black & White 16


    Due in part to the staggered release of the episodes (e.g. not making it to YouTube for a full week), we have a much tighter ship regarding spoilers than you may be used to. Please be sure to read the full spoiler rules for RWBY below.

    Spoiler: Official note on spoilers
    Show
    Official note on spoilers:
    • After a new episode is posted, discussion about that episode will be considered spoilers for the greater of one week after the first paid members only (Rooster Teeth FIRST) viewing or 24 hours after the YouTube release, and all discussion about it must be done in spoiler boxes.
    • (Note: This will usually mean a week and a day from original paid members (Rooster Teeth FIRST) release.)
    • Anything released prior to that (RTX, leaks, etc.) will be considered spoilers until no earlier than the same (usually "week and a day") timeframe after the official reveal in the episode it relates to.
    • All spoiler boxes must indicate clearly in the spoiler box's title (i.e. [spoiler=title]) what episode it is spoiling (even when replying), including the volume and episode number.
    • This period (usually a week and a day) is a minimum amount only. You should consider using spoiler boxes for longer, particularly for larger spoilers.
    • It is recommended, but not mandatory, that you consider using spoiler boxes for older information to assist new fans still catching up. Again, please indicate the episode in the spoiler box's title.

    The YouTube videos, for one, are a week behind, and on top of new people walking into the thread from YouTube without knowing, we have people who cannot watch it from the official site. Keeping them labelled like this is important for those behind so that they know what is safe to open and what isn't. When replying to spoilers without a title, it becomes difficult to determine which episode it was referring to. e.g. "Was the original post about the current episode or a previous episode but the discussion is still ongoing?"

    For the purposes of this thread, please never use a spoiler box without a title. If it's not a spoiler but, for example, you're just keeping things such as images, off topic discussion, or walls of text tidy, please mention that in the spoiler box title. When breaking up quotes, always remember to reinsert the spoiler box title.


    Purchase:
    Volumes 1, 2, 3, and 4 of RWBY are available to purchase on BluRay/DVD, or several digital movie services such as iTunes, Google Movies, or Steam.

    WARNING:
    My recommendation is that you don't touch the Steam versions with a 100 foot barge pole. All movies/shows available to buy or rent on Steam are for streaming only. You cannot download, save, store, backup, transfer, etc. any video purchases from Steam. This isn't Rooster Teeth's doing, it's Valve's.

    I've also read reports that it doesn't include any bonus content. So, you are literally paying to stream what you can stream for free. If you'd like to support Rooster Teeth/RWBY, I suggest you buy the DVD(s) or BluRay(s) and/or become a Rooster Teeth FIRST member (which, amongst other things, grants you access to RWBY several days early). Don't support Valve's business model.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: v5c6 reaction
    Show
    The 'No Faunus' sign outside the bar was a nice detail. Someone should teach that guy how to sharpen a knife, though.

    Qrow's montage of brandishing his cell phone scroll at people would have been bad even as an NPC interaction in a video game. It put me in mind of the swoop races in KOTOR, how the audience would cheer or boo (and never mind matching sound to animation) depending on whether you beat the time. And before it comes up, no, the issue was not that they were minimizing the number of voiced extras.

    Raven's dramatic conversation had the correct dramatic beats but no substantive focus whatsoever, and the tension of Raven's invitation to hear the truth was completely dissipated by the lack of follow-through. Is this what they call blue-balling?

    I'm glad the end of the episode establishes pretty firmly that hugs =/= ships, in case last episode confused anyone on that point.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: S5E6
    Show
    This is the big reveal episode and two major bombs were dropped. Qrow discovered all his huntsmen he was recruiting are...probably dead. Qrow got that impression from the job boards and we know that he thinks they are dead, not just missing or tied up, because he settled the guys restaurant tab.

    Raven also dropped a major bomb. The Grimm have, for a looooong time now, been acting under the control of Salem, who is determined to see humanity "collapse before her." That answers my question as to why the grimm are after human and faunuses, and exclusively them and their work. Grimm may not have been created to attack humans but they are being direct to. Salem, doesn't just have the power to control Grimm here and there, she is their Queen.

    Given that we are suspicious of Lionheart, it seems probable that he has been sending lots of huntsmen to their death on purpose, to thin the ranks that can defend when the attack on Haven Academy comes. Since its "not one or two, but all of them," it could mean Lionheart was discriminating against potential Qrow recruits (but that means doing so for weeks) but more likely, Lionheart has been sending all the strongest huntsmen to their death, potentially coordinating with Salem, who controls the grimm.

    Salem being the Grimm Queen all along makes her motives and goals much darker than I have previously speculated. According to Raven, Salem wants nothing more than make "humanity collapse at her feet" and that seems like the only sort of goal that makes sense, if Salem has been essentially fighting a war against all of humanity for eons.

    Raven's bombs about Salem does not really track with her attitude towards Ozpin. Salem is practically genocidal, and Raven seems to want to escape to her own little corner and not worry about it.

    Her explanation is that Salem isn't the sort of being one can fight. Also, Ozpin has secrets...but Raven's anger at him for keeping Salem hidden seems overblown. I think she is more angry about him using people "to fight his war," particularly Summer. Her death is almost certainly tied to this war against Salem.

    Finally, Raven's revelation wasn't so much a data dump, although she credits Salem for controlling the grimm for a long long time, we know most of what she is implying about Ozpin. Raven is trying to reconcile with her daughter but doesn't seem to know how to stop being the bandit queen bitch. Instead, she basically tries to control Yang like another minion. She tries to plant a bunch of doubts into Yang's mind to separate her from all her friends and get her to stay. That wasn't going to work.

    Yang says Raven wasn't very nice this time when Raven sends Yang off. Raven sighs "I know" after sending Yang off.

    There are times Raven gave off the impression of potentially siding with Salem. Then she appears to be a third side. Now, it appears she is actually forcibly trying to stay out of things. Having the Salem's next target with her though means that Raven is going to have to make choices soon, and ultimately doesn't want those choices to get her daughter killed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    The blood pact begins anew, fresh with the drippings of a freshly pricked thumb. Bless this new thread.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: s5e6
    Show


    It really doesn't feel like we're halfway through the volume. Volume 4 had the same issue, where just not a whole lot was happening. the season has been dramatically better than the last, but it still feels very much like all of this could have happened in volume 4. Thats probably due to volume 4's problems than 5's, but still.

    Also, why are we treating this as the big teary eyed reunion? Has everyone just forgotten about Blake completely?

    Maybe im being overly cynical, cause i actually liked this episode, i think it was put together really nicely for what is basically explaining stuff we already know. But its hard to enjoy this show sometimes.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
    Spoiler: s5e6
    Show


    It really doesn't feel like we're halfway through the volume. Volume 4 had the same issue, where just not a whole lot was happening. the season has been dramatically better than the last, but it still feels very much like all of this could have happened in volume 4. Thats probably due to volume 4's problems than 5's, but still.

    Also, why are we treating this as the big teary eyed reunion? Has everyone just forgotten about Blake completely?

    Maybe im being overly cynical, cause i actually liked this episode, i think it was put together really nicely for what is basically explaining stuff we already know. But its hard to enjoy this show sometimes.

    Spoiler: V5C6
    Show
    Is Volume 6 supposed to be longer than previous volumes? I think I remember hearing that at some point, but I don't remember.

    And there very well could be an easy explanation for why they seem to have forgotten Blake...she's the only one without a 'reasonable' explanation for leaving after the Fall of Beacon. Weiss was forced to return home by Papa Schnee, Yang lost an arm and had to recover, and Ruby was apparently unconscious and had to mend as well after lazer-eying a personality into Cinder.

    Blake...just ran away with no explanation to anyone about anything. We the audience know why and sympathize with Blake but none of the cast do, as far as they know after the attack on Beacon Blake just up and disappeared and no one knows what happened to her. They don't know she feels responsible for what happened to them or that her psychotic ex promised to kill everyone she loved pretty much 'just cause'. At least with Yang we know there's going to be some resentment because Blake knows how Raven left her and did pretty much the exact same thing to her.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica
    Spoiler: V5C5
    Show
    Blake doesn't have a good reason to think of Weiss as defiance--I would go so far as to say that defiance is not Weiss in general, but specifically Weiss with her family. That one in particular exposes the 'reading off a character sheet' element of the speech, but really the whole thing has that problem. Something concrete and experiential about Blake's time with Adam, something to buttress her abstraction of his nature, would have hit harder than this glib tangent.
    Spoiler: V5C5
    Show
    That's honestly the one that feels the least like 'reading off a character sheet' to me cause Weiss defies her family, yeah..but that is a pretty major part of her character that everyone close to her knows about.

    That doesn't change the fact that..yeah, that part of Blake's scene wasn't well done. I wish it had been, because it was an interesting part of Blake's character that she's a bad read of character cause she sees people in absolutes, basically making her a Sith Lord, but I wish the execution had been better. Its one of those cases were you can see the writer's intent but you can also see how it could have been done better.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
    Spoiler: s5e6
    Show

    It really doesn't feel like we're halfway through the volume. Volume 4 had the same issue, where just not a whole lot was happening. the season has been dramatically better than the last, but it still feels very much like all of this could have happened in volume 4. Thats probably due to volume 4's problems than 5's, but still.
    Spoiler: V5E6 V4E6
    Show
    By this point in Volume 4: Ruby, Weiss, Yang, Blake, Qrow, Oscar, and Cinder/Salem's are all introduced in their situations and been through at least one story each. The criticism has been raised before that the Vol. 4 was unnecessary, but can someone really skip Volume 4 and have everything in Volume 5 make sense?

    Volume 4 told a solid character-centric arc about each of the major players: Cinder revealed her individual personality and now has a personal motive to go after Ruby, Qrow made several major revelations about himself as well as the backstory, Weiss's family was introduced and in this context her defiance now seems much more nobel and less spoiled rich brat, Blake and Yang had major personal arcs, Oscar got introduced. All of those stories were well under way by the time episode 6 "Tipping Point" started to introduce major adversaries (Jacques turned against Weiss and Tyrian attacked RNJR).



    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
    Spoiler: S5E6
    Show

    Also, why are we treating this as the big teary eyed reunion? Has everyone just forgotten about Blake completely?

    Maybe im being overly cynical, cause i actually liked this episode, i think it was put together really nicely for what is basically explaining stuff we already know. But its hard to enjoy this show sometimes.
    Spoiler: S5E6
    Show
    Ruby has just saw her sister and best friend after months apart. From their perspective, how is this not a teary eyed reunion?

    Moreover, there are two major items of information. The first is that Lionheart is killing off Mistral's hunters. One might argue that these people are faceless, but this is suggestive that the attack on Mistral might be a lot worse than what happened at Beacon, and, without hunters, Mistral may be a lot worse off in the aftermath. This raises the stakes and potential disaster looming, and brings the villains to a new level in terms of what they are willing to do.

    The second is a mega-bombshell. Raven describes Salem as the Grimms' one and only true master, and says that the Grimm are attacking humans at Salem's behest. This is huge. We knew that Salem could control Grimm, but now it appears that the Grimm are Salem's full-time servants. That has big implications for what Salem's ultimate goals are, and means that Salem is a genocidal type of villain who has been plaguing humanity for millennium.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2017-11-19 at 06:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5E6 V4E6
    Show
    By this point in Volume 4: Ruby, Weiss, Yang, Blake, Qrow, Oscar, and Cinder/Salem's are all introduced in their situations and been through at least one story each. The criticism has been raised before that the Vol. 4 was unnecessary, but can someone really skip Volume 4 and have everything in Volume 5 make sense?

    Volume 4 told a solid character-centric arc about each of the major players: Cinder revealed her individual personality and now has a personal motive to go after Ruby, Qrow made several major revelations about himself as well as the backstory, Weiss's family was introduced and in this context her defiance now seems much more nobel and less spoiled rich brat, Blake and Yang had major personal arcs, Oscar got introduced. All of those stories were well under way by the time episode 6 "Tipping Point" started to introduce major adversaries (Jacques turned against Weiss and Tyrian attacked RNJR).
    Spoiler: v5e6, also volume 4 sorta
    Show


    I think more so that volume 4 could have been condensed and we could have gotten this stuff in the second half of the volume. I really didn't mind volume 4 other than the fact that it seems like non of the emotional consequences of the end of volume 3 were addressed. Maybe it would have been too faced paced with both of the volumes but i binged all of volume 4 in one sitting and i left feeling like not a whole lot got accomplished i dunno


    Spoiler: S5E6
    Show
    Ruby has just saw her sister and best friend after months apart. From their perspective, how is this not a teary eyed reunion?

    Moreover, there are two major items of information. The first is that Lionheart is killing off Mistral's hunters. One might argue that these people are faceless, but this is suggestive that the attack on Mistral might be a lot worse than what happened at Beacon, and, without hunters, Mistral may be a lot worse off in the aftermath. This raises the stakes and potential disaster looming, and brings the villains to a new level in terms of what they are willing to do.

    The second is a mega-bombshell. Raven describes Salem as the Grimms' one and only true master, and says that the Grimm are attacking humans at Salem's behest. This is huge. We knew that Salem could control Grimm, but now it appears that the Grimm are Salem's full-time servants. That has big implications for what Salem's ultimate goals are, and means that Salem is a genocidal type of villain who has been plaguing humanity for millennium and is willing to bring humanity to the brink of extinction to accomplish what she wants.
    Spoiler: v5e6
    Show


    i feel like we knew this stuff already? But even still it doesn't feel like any major revelations sure i guess we get confirmation that Salem is the Grimm Queen but that was pretty obvious.

    Sure its a nice reunion between sisters and it was real touching but the way they brought Weiss in felt like "Team rwby is back together"
    kind of hug despite it not... being... that...
    Last edited by The Extinguisher; 2017-11-19 at 06:15 PM.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5C5
    Show
    That's honestly the one that feels the least like 'reading off a character sheet' to me cause Weiss defies her family, yeah..but that is a pretty major part of her character that everyone close to her knows about.

    That doesn't change the fact that..yeah, that part of Blake's scene wasn't well done. I wish it had been, because it was an interesting part of Blake's character that she's a bad read of character cause she sees people in absolutes, basically making her a Sith Lord, but I wish the execution had been better. Its one of those cases were you can see the writer's intent but you can also see how it could have been done better.
    Well, there were a few smalls things here and there, but yeah... Not enough to be "The Personification" of the word.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    tracking post.
    This is spam. Do not do this.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Well, there were a few smalls things here and there, but yeah... Not enough to be "The Personification" of the word.
    To be fair, it's nice that Weiss has enough development that she can't be summed up in just one word.

    ETA:
    Spoiler: v5c6
    Show
    My reaction to Raven's attempted exposition was summed up by the Giant: "It's better to use exposition to cover stuff no one saw."


    ETA2 because no posts: Reddish and Zodi might be interested in this
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2017-11-21 at 01:46 AM.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    [SPOILER=V5C6]
    Spoiler: V5C5
    Show
    That's honestly the one that feels the least like 'reading off a character sheet' to me cause Weiss defies her family, yeah..but that is a pretty major part of her character that everyone close to her knows about.

    That doesn't change the fact that..yeah, that part of Blake's scene wasn't well done. I wish it had been, because it was an interesting part of Blake's character that she's a bad read of character cause she sees people in absolutes, basically making her a Sith Lord, but I wish the execution had been better. Its one of those cases were you can see the writer's intent but you can also see how it could have been done better.
    Spoiler: V5C5
    Show
    Weiss has a lot of defiance in her, actually. She says during their mission with Oobleck that her whole reason for becoming a huntress was to pull her family name out of the gutter. She's always trying to prove herself against any challenge laid before her ("You're not a team player." "I'll show you, I'll be the best team player this team's got!"). She clashes with Ruby (her "leader") frequently, rebukes Jaune on the expectation that he's a gold-digger, strives to exceed expectations placed on her, and just typically responds to any engagement with a contrary opinion. One thing to note here, though, is that she's usually a positive example of defiance, generally favoring positive action (proving herself/her point) over negative action (discrediting/sabotaging the opposition). That makes her a pretty interesting and enjoyable character. But the girl is all about defiance, and not just against Daddy.


    Spoiler: V5C6
    Show
    I don't think it's Leo that's killing the freelancers. At least, not willingly. But with Watts (and thus Salem) looking over his shoulder, it's pretty easy for Salem to know who's doing what, when, and where, and what circumstances are optimal for an ambush. If Raven's assertion on Salem is correct, all Salem would need do is put extra pressure on an extermination mission or another to keep pushing the huntsmen until they break. Of course, if he's actively assigning freelancers to missions knowing they'll be fatal traps, then he goes from strong-armed accomplice to active collaborator and loses all sympathy from me.

    Raven... I don't know what she's thinking with the game she tried to play. She deliberately withheld tools that could aid and possibly save her daughter. Why? If it made Ozzie look bad, all the better, right?

    The only way it makes sense to me is if the info falls under the "truth is subjective" label she mentioned at the start of the conversation. That whole "one man's epic victory is another's tragic loss" spiel. Basically, she knows the truth (likely a bigger picture of the threat at hand) can be viewed different ways, and she's worried about which reaction her daughter would have. She looked at the threat, said "<bleep> this, I'm not going to die for someone else's mistakes", and quit. Qrowe looked at the same threat and said "<bleep>, this is important! I have to help stop this, even if it kills me!" and doubled down as Ozpin's point man. The last thing she wants is to galvanize her daughter into suicidal action, so her ultimatum is a gambit to ensure that Yang only gets the info if Raven is confident she'll get the "right" reaction. If Yang takes the portal, she's too idealistic and emotional and Raven would only cement her senseless sacrifice by telling her. If she stays, she's cold and detached enough that she'll see how meaningless it would be to throw her life away after it, and it would only bolster her offer to let Yang into the tribe. This would also work with her "I know." at the end, if she honestly thought letting Yang go was the true cruelty. I don't know. Is Raven just a jerk, or is she someone who chose to act on a scale she could succeed at (protecting and guiding her tribe) rather than die meaninglessly on a scale she couldn't (saving the world from the Grimm)? Jackass or a practical savior? We'll just have to see.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Spoiler: V5C5
    Show
    Weiss has a lot of defiance in her, actually. She says during their mission with Oobleck that her whole reason for becoming a huntress was to pull her family name out of the gutter. She's always trying to prove herself against any challenge laid before her ("You're not a team player." "I'll show you, I'll be the best team player this team's got!"). She clashes with Ruby (her "leader") frequently, rebukes Jaune on the expectation that he's a gold-digger, strives to exceed expectations placed on her, and just typically responds to any engagement with a contrary opinion. One thing to note here, though, is that she's usually a positive example of defiance, generally favoring positive action (proving herself/her point) over negative action (discrediting/sabotaging the opposition). That makes her a pretty interesting and enjoyable character. But the girl is all about defiance, and not just against Daddy.
    That's certainly a lot of things that Weiss does, but I don't think they fit neatly into 'defiance'. 'Pride' is a much more fitting term for most of them.

    Pulling the Schnee name out of the gutter is sort of a defiance towards the people who think badly of it, and much more so a defiance of her father who married into the name and dragged it through the muck (and so we see defiance come out when family is involved), but ultimately it's about pride in being a Schnee, which is why her goal is to rehabilitate the name rather than just to leave it in the dirt. Weiss doesn't defy Port's diagnosis of her flaw--rather, it hurts her pride that she has such an obvious flaw, and she redirects her pride from wanting to be team leader to wanting to be the best teammate. Her rebuke of Jaune is based on pride keeping her from seeing Jaune as an equal. And Weiss doesn't really clash with Ruby on a leader-subordinate basis where defiance would apply, at least that I can recall--but in volume 1 she clashes with Ruby multiple times due to thinking she knows better or is better than Ruby. Even in recent episodes we see this--Weiss' defiance of Vernal in their scene together is based on familial pride in Winter, and when the prospect of Winter's intervention goes away, so does the defiance.

    And this came up because of Blake in particular, but when Blake clashed with Weiss in volume 1, it was Blake's position that clearly mapped to defiance, not Weiss'.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2017-11-21 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    It's Tuesday and thus today is RWBY day, you can see for free (with a free account) the most recent chapter of RWBY

    http://roosterteeth.com/episode/rwby...6ulihl23hns988

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post

    Spoiler: V5C6
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    I don't think it's Leo that's killing the freelancers. At least, not willingly. But with Watts (and thus Salem) looking over his shoulder, it's pretty easy for Salem to know who's doing what, when, and where, and what circumstances are optimal for an ambush. If Raven's assertion on Salem is correct, all Salem would need do is put extra pressure on an extermination mission or another to keep pushing the huntsmen until they break.
    Spoiler: V5E6
    Show
    I predict this is what is what's really happening. I don't think we want Leo to be so irredeemable he is already participating in mass-murder with full knowledge, although he is essentially already doing so in any-case. He intimately knows what Salem is capable of, and what she will do to Haven in a months time, so perhaps the distinction is slight.

    Regardless, I'd prefer Leo to prove to have good reason for his terror and a chance for redemption rather than simply being a hyperbolically cowardly collaborator.


    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Spoiler: V5E6
    Show

    This would also work with her "I know." at the end, if she honestly thought letting Yang go was the true cruelty. I don't know. Is Raven just a jerk, or is she someone who chose to act on a scale she could succeed at (protecting and guiding her tribe) rather than die meaninglessly on a scale she couldn't (saving the world from the Grimm)? Jackass or a practical savior? We'll just have to see.
    Spoiler: V5E6 I know
    Show
    I prefer the idea that Raven is fully aware of her bitch queen missteps in front of her daughter during the entire exchange. This gives Raven a much deeper personality and a chance of redemption. Beneath it all, Raven recognizes she has been a absentee mom and has made a lot of mistakes with Yang. This puts her on a path of later doing something that will correct that.

    If Raven simply thinks her only regret is she let Yang through the portal, that makes Raven a stubborn, narrow-minded bitch (I tried curmudgeon, dictator, nasty, reactionary, all words that describe that Raven's behavior, but bitch rolls them all into one). A Raven who doesn't secretly regret what she has done or what she was doing with Yang is one that could easily turn sides and join up with Cinder when she arrives. She could easily fight against Yang and would even blame Yang for making the one choice Raven forced on her.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    That's certainly a lot of things that Weiss does, but I don't think they fit neatly into 'defiance'. 'Pride' is a much more fitting term for most of them.

    Pulling the Schnee name out of the gutter is sort of a defiance towards the people who think badly of it, and much more so a defiance of her father who married into the name and dragged it through the muck (and so we see defiance come out when family is involved), but ultimately it's about pride in being a Schnee, which is why her goal is to rehabilitate the name rather than just to leave it in the dirt. Weiss doesn't defy Port's diagnosis of her flaw--rather, it hurts her pride that she has such an obvious flaw, and she redirects her pride from wanting to be team leader to wanting to be the best teammate. Her rebuke of Jaune is based on pride keeping her from seeing Jaune as an equal. And Weiss doesn't really clash with Ruby on a leader-subordinate basis where defiance would apply, at least that I can recall--but in volume 1 she clashes with Ruby multiple times due to thinking she knows better or is better than Ruby. Even in recent episodes we see this--Weiss' defiance of Vernal in their scene together is based on familial pride in Winter, and when the prospect of Winter's intervention goes away, so does the defiance.

    And this came up because of Blake in particular, but when Blake clashed with Weiss in volume 1, it was Blake's position that clearly mapped to defiance, not Weiss'.
    Spoiler: S5E5 Weiss in a Word
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    Pride is dreadfully generic. Weiss clearly has a lot of pride, but if that's what defines Weiss, it could make her a very shallow person. Defiance is far more specific and describes Weiss's prime motivating reasons and life-goals, not just to restore the Schnee family name but to find a way to fight her father.

    Weiss also doesn't just show a lot of pride in any fashion, when she is showing pride she usually does that by rebuffing or resisting or otherwise taking an adversarial position with someone. Whether that is Ruby, Qrow, Port, Juane, or unnamed pilot guy, Weiss is constantly putting herself at odds with others and contradicting them
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: Vol 5 Chapter 6, does it have a callback to Vol 2 and 3?
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    Some people are assuming that Leo is leaking information to Salem and this is getting people DEAD in the huntsman missions. Another possible explanation is we already know from Vol 2 and this was reconfirmed in Vol 5 Chapter 6 that the huntsman missions are stored in electronic archives and you access these missions with your scrolls, tablets, and the center of the city tv screens.

    Well we already know that Salem / Cinder has hacked such a system and since Watts and other Salem members have infiltrated Leo's academy of Haven it is also likely that such a computer virus has already infected Haven.

    Remember also that infecting the Vale / Beacon system occurred by two different vectors, one was the telegraphed Cinder-ella ball of Season 2, but another vector was Ironwood own personal scroll in Vol 3 Chapter 3 (or was it 4) when Ironwood complained about Qrow's drunkness and showed off his little toys, and in doing so infected Ozpin's own computer table.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5E6
    Show
    I predict this is what is what's really happening. I don't think we want Leo to be so irredeemable he is already participating in mass-murder with full knowledge, although he is essentially already doing so in any-case. He intimately knows what Salem is capable of, and what she will do to Haven in a months time, so perhaps the distinction is slight.

    Regardless, I'd prefer Leo to prove to have good reason for his terror and a chance for redemption rather than simply being a hyperbolically cowardly collaborator.


    Spoiler: V5E6 I know
    Show
    I prefer the idea that Raven is fully aware of her bitch queen missteps in front of her daughter during the entire exchange. This gives Raven a much deeper personality and a chance of redemption. Beneath it all, Raven recognizes she has been a absentee mom and has made a lot of mistakes with Yang. This puts her on a path of later doing something that will correct that.

    If Raven simply thinks her only regret is she let Yang through the portal, that makes Raven a stubborn, narrow-minded bitch (I tried curmudgeon, dictator, nasty, reactionary, all words that describe that Raven's behavior, but bitch rolls them all into one). A Raven who doesn't secretly regret what she has done or what she was doing with Yang is one that could easily turn sides and join up with Cinder when she arrives. She could easily fight against Yang and would even blame Yang for making the one choice Raven forced on her.
    I agree with both of these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: S5E5 Weiss in a Word
    Show
    Pride is dreadfully generic. Weiss clearly has a lot of pride, but if that's what defines Weiss, it could make her a very shallow person. Defiance is far more specific and describes Weiss's prime motivating reasons and life-goals, not just to restore the Schnee family name but to find a way to fight her father.

    Weiss also doesn't just show a lot of pride in any fashion, when she is showing pride she usually does that by rebuffing or resisting or otherwise taking an adversarial position with someone. Whether that is Ruby, Qrow, Port, Juane, or unnamed pilot guy, Weiss is constantly putting herself at odds with others and contradicting them
    Defiance is not more specific than pride. It merely describes a narrower section of Weiss' behavior. And as defining words go, defiance is not deeper or more complex than pride. Both words can define shallow characters or deep ones--it's all in the details.

    I have not argued that Weiss is universally prideful, but for every example of defiance given so far, I have argued that pride was the more fitting description (except in regards to her father, where it's about equal). If we are to say that Weiss doesn't show a lot of pride, then we must either address the examples given, add more, or conclude that Weiss shows even less defiance.

    "My father was not the start of our name, and I refuse to let him be the end of it." Defying Jacques does not imply restoring the family name, as all Weiss needs to do to defy Jacques is refuse to fit into the little box he's made for her--she could do a million other things. But pride in the family name does imply defying Jacques, who is the one sullying it. Ergo, pride is the fundamental and specific description of Weiss' motivating force even where her behavior is defiant, a case I've also made for her defiance of Vernal. I would buy either 'pride' or 'defiance' to describe her in these situations.

    In other situations, though, Weiss' behavior usually isn't defiant. She is not 'defying' Jaune by rejecting his advances; she is not 'defying' Ruby by ignoring her advice; she is not 'defying' Professor Port by taking his advice to heart; and so on. Saying that Weiss "putting herself at odds with others and contradicting them" is defiance only shows how shallow and wishy-washy that connection is--defiance is not merely contrariness or conflict. But pride is still a touchstone for her motives in these cases--or at least that's what I've argued, and merely asserting the contrary position does not challenge my arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Spoiler: Vol 5 Chapter 6, does it have a callback to Vol 2 and 3?
    Show

    Some people are assuming that Leo is leaking information to Salem and this is getting people DEAD in the huntsman missions. Another possible explanation is we already know from Vol 2 and this was reconfirmed in Vol 5 Chapter 6 that the huntsman missions are stored in electronic archives and you access these missions with your scrolls, tablets, and the center of the city tv screens.

    Well we already know that Salem / Cinder has hacked such a system and since Watts and other Salem members have infiltrated Leo's academy of Haven it is also likely that such a computer virus has already infected Haven.

    Remember also that infecting the Vale / Beacon system occurred by two different vectors, one was the telegraphed Cinder-ella ball of Season 2, but another vector was Ironwood own personal scroll in Vol 3 Chapter 3 (or was it 4) when Ironwood complained about Qrow's drunkness and showed off his little toys, and in doing so infected Ozpin's own computer table.
    Spoiler: v5c6
    Show
    I really want to meet this hacker. The plot device is too bloody strong to not give us the face behind it. Not-so-WAG: someone from Atlas.

    Speaking of which, I hope like hell Ironwood is making an effort to figure out how his systems were subverted.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Spoiler: Vol 5 Chapter 6, does it have a callback to Vol 2 and 3?
    Show

    Some people are assuming that Leo is leaking information to Salem and this is getting people DEAD in the huntsman missions. Another possible explanation is we already know from Vol 2 and this was reconfirmed in Vol 5 Chapter 6 that the huntsman missions are stored in electronic archives and you access these missions with your scrolls, tablets, and the center of the city tv screens.

    Well we already know that Salem / Cinder has hacked such a system and since Watts and other Salem members have infiltrated Leo's academy of Haven it is also likely that such a computer virus has already infected Haven.

    Remember also that infecting the Vale / Beacon system occurred by two different vectors, one was the telegraphed Cinder-ella ball of Season 2, but another vector was Ironwood own personal scroll in Vol 3 Chapter 3 (or was it 4) when Ironwood complained about Qrow's drunkness and showed off his little toys, and in doing so infected Ozpin's own computer table.
    Spoiler: V5 C6
    Show
    This is indeed another possibility but it is a less exciting one to talk about because...it'd be something we've already seen. Still effective mind, but we haven't been given any sign that such a virus is present.

    One thing we don't know is just how far Leo's treachery goes and just how willing it is, so when we see something like this...its pretty fun to question if it was Leo and how far he's been swayed by Salem.

    And, at some point I need to find out where this was said, apparently Watts is the one that created that virus. Its all the more evidence that such a virus could in play in Haven, but if so its not evidence that we've seen yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5 C6
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    This is indeed another possibility but it is a less exciting one to talk about because...it'd be something we've already seen. Still effective mind, but we haven't been given any sign that such a virus is present.

    One thing we don't know is just how far Leo's treachery goes and just how willing it is, so when we see something like this...its pretty fun to question if it was Leo and how far he's been swayed by Salem.

    And, at some point I need to find out where this was said, apparently Watts is the one that created that virus. Its all the more evidence that such a virus could in play in Haven, but if so its not evidence that we've seen yet.
    Spoiler: Black Queen Virus and it's Creator
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    The Black Queen virus was created by Watts. If you go back and look at the chapter where Cinder says they have a new access point (Ironwood's scroll) and finds Penny's schmatics, there is a stylalised "W" in the corner of her scroll screen.
    This same "W" can be seen on the back of Watts' scroll in V4C1 and in V5C1 when it pops up over Lionhearts desk when Watts tells him "we'll have to work on your improvisational skills".
    Last edited by Rawhide; 2017-11-21 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Fixed spoiler mishap


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5 C6
    Show
    This is indeed another possibility but it is a less exciting one to talk about because...it'd be something we've already seen. Still effective mind, but we haven't been given any sign that such a virus is present.

    And, at some point I need to find out where this was said, apparently Watts is the one that created that virus. Its all the more evidence that such a virus could in play in Haven, but if so its not evidence that we've seen yet.
    Spoiler: V5C6 And Upcoming Origins of virus
    Show
    I’d like to see where it says Watts created the virus. Ah, here it is. So the W monogram is what gives the fandom the idea that Watts created the virus. Also the monogram supposedly shows up in Vol 5 when Leo speaks with Watts.

    In any case. I have to agree, the virus is a boring possibility because it has already been played out. Also, back in Vol 2 it was said that they couldn’t find what was done to the CCT without shutting it down, which Ozpin wouldn’t do as it would cause a panic. This upset Ironwood but he agreed and never revisited it. Now that the CCT shutdown and they know the virus is there and what it does, it makes more sense it was found and removed. As Leth mentioned, Ironwood isn’t one to allow such a thing to exist undisturbed. I think Ironwood would get rid of it if he had to tear down every existing piece of equipment and rebuild it.

    Incidentally, Ironwood being upset at Ozpin and seizing control of Vale security carries a lot of new meaning now that we know that Ironwood knows that Ozpin is the immortal head of the effort against Salem. If Ironwood doesn’t trust Ozpin that means he doesn’t an immortal with centuries of experience fighting this war, and the entire world-spanning political infrastructure Ozpin built to resist Salem over generations (including such social engineering feats as making sure everyone forgot about magic and the maidens). Ironwood’s messiah complex, his sense of his own necessity and the urgency of action, now takes on new degrees of messed up.

    He knows very well he is tearing down centuries if not millennium of work in going his own way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Defiance is not more specific than pride. It merely describes a narrower section of Weiss' behavior. And as defining words go, defiance is not deeper or more complex than pride. Both words can define shallow characters or deep ones--it's all in the details.

    I have not argued that Weiss is universally prideful, but for every example of defiance given so far, I have argued that pride was the more fitting description (except in regards to her father, where it's about equal)...pride is the fundamental and specific description of Weiss' motivating force even where her behavior is defiant, a case I've also made for her defiance of Vernal. I would buy either 'pride' or 'defiance' to describe her in these situations.

    In other situations, though, Weiss' behavior usually isn't defiant. She is not 'defying' Jaune by rejecting his advances; she is not 'defying' Ruby by ignoring her advice; she is not 'defying' Professor Port by taking his advice to heart; and so on. Saying that Weiss "putting herself at odds with others and contradicting them" is defiance only shows how shallow and wishy-washy that connection is--defiance is not merely contrariness or conflict. But pride is still a touchstone for her motives in these cases--or at least that's what I've argued, and merely asserting the contrary position does not challenge my arguments.
    Weiss doesn’t merely ignore Ruby’s advice at first, she demeans her, defends herself and her family from perceived attacks by Ruby and Blake, and otherwise set herself apart. Juane asking Weiss to the dance was elaborate and corny and Weiss doesn’t merely refuse him, but slams the door in his face, twice. Weiss even complained about Ozpin to another professor.

    I think pride works better in your examples only in the fashion that it describes a broader range of human behavior and so you can pin it on Weiss more often or in more ways. Defiance tends to involve some element of pride, but not vice versa. Weiss is certainly prideful in almost reflectsive manner, and would do things that is consistent with pride, i.e. Weiss offer to pay for ramen (which she then complained about the outcome).

    I think its Weiss’s very tendency to complain about everyone and everything that shows how defiance defines here. To see things and people as set up against her (like Juane’s advances, I mean seriously, she suggests Juane is interested in her money or family name), even when they are not. Her tendency to take an adversarial stance even against her friends, are all very real and a stronger determination of defiance than pride.

    There are plenty of ways to express pride that doesn’t involve being adversarial, defensive or showing other elements of hostility. That isn’t Weiss’s way of being, though. Weiss has anger issues, and always seems taunt, ready to snap at the next person who says or does anything that upsets her. Various versions of the Devil in media are always dripping with pride (he is supposed to be its personification), but those versions are rarely angry (that would be beneath him). In these stories, the Devil opposes or defy people only at critical plot points. For Weiss its an always on possibility.

    I think her meltdown at the ball to raise money for the Vale relief efforts was the most perfect moment of defiance and less that of pride. Her pride didn’t require her to throw a temper tantrum, it was her burning need to oppose the wrong she saw going on around her. She wasn’t even opposing Jacques (at least not at first) so much as the ignorance she was seeing around.

    I think defiance describes Weiss much better, not just because it works better for those critical scenes, but because Pride cannot explain her anger, hostility, and adversarial posture, and because defiance is narrower, and isn’t such a clique personality descriptor.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2017-11-21 at 11:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    How about, both. Character's only having one defining characteristic is bad, and I'm super excited to see all the garbage OCs that are designed to only have one because of pure childish misunderstanding of this sort of thing by bad fans. Anyway blood oath etc etc.

    Spoiler: V5C6
    Show
    WE open on Qrowe going shopping for mercenaries from a bar he knows. His first choice stiffed the bartender on his tab. Talk about bad luck *dies*

    This goes poorly and Qrowe scratches that name off his list. You know he could of gone about that a lot less mysteriously. Just say you're looking for dudes to do a violence and you're paying money. He cuts down to all but the last name on the list, because of course he does. A note, seeing the sort of dilapidated, rain soaked side of Mistral sells the idea that things are bad here a lot more than the first thing we saw.

    The last person he had on his list is missing, leaving her husband and small cute child alone. Qrowe gets said and realizes he's kinda fricked it. I get that he's looking for people he trusts, but beggers can't be choosers when it comes to picking dudes for a run. Though I mean...quality matters too, obviously.

    Qrowe does some investigation to see why all his contacts are missing or otherwise not available, and hey that dumb video game quest board from season one is back. He...then goes back to the bar for his first guy and pays off the dude's tab. The bar tender gets sad and I don't...know why. Look, are we supposed to read between the lines and have this be "the bartender loved the mercenary and he's clearly dead" here? Because...I mean if so, neat. But executed poorly. "His name is clear" but your point is ****in' not. Also there's a sign on the bar that says "no faunus" and this is the first real sign we've ever really seen in this show about the racism actually being a thing. And I'd expect better from Mistral for this!

    Meanwhile with BadMom, it's time for tea. Since Yang and Weiss have time for that apparently. You're very obnoxious too Weiss, for the most part. Tea is way better hot though, if it's good tea. I do wonder why Raven's delaying telling them what her big secret about Ozpin is.

    "The truth is that the truth is hard to comeby. Victory for one is defeat for another" oh no someone told RT about the concept of seeing things from a different perspective and they don't understand it. Look Raven, this isn't a complicated discussion about the philosophy of winners making history and the general idea that the world barely functions but it functions enough that it's good but come on. Just tell them. Raven then...gives information that would make them trust her LESS, by revealing she and Qrowe joined Beacon to learn how to murder so they could murder hunters. Given that Qrowe is no longer a murderer and Raven has a family of bandits I think it's pretty clear which of them is on the good guy side.

    Her reason for this is because the bandit group they were apart of as kids needed a counterforce against Hunters...which means that she really needs to teach her current boys how to do an aura. God they suck.

    Then Raven says something Actually Interesting to me, if only because I like the concept of it. RWBY wasn't the first team of dumb idiots Ozpin's let fool around like stupid morons. He did it with STRQ as well, Raven's team with BigYang and Summer and Qrowe. I actually like this idea. Ozpin's done this before, probably will do it again. Raven then starts to bring up what she's clearly leading to, that Ozpin's this age old entity hooking himself onto people and seemingly taking over the world through the academies, but she's being very coy about it. On the one hand, very annoying get on with it. On the other hand makes sense, springing that on a person can be rather sudden. Yang asks why someone would do this...a stupid question considering that should be obvious.

    Raven's response is to mention that Ozpin told them "his secret" but mentions the whole "spread fear across the world" thing so she probably means the Maidens because Ozpin thought that for some reason. I feel like Ozpin's immortality would cause more panic myself. And the reveal is...

    Salem exists. Okay so...this is valid. The nasty creatures having an actual boss who plans their every move? That's something that'll shake up the world.

    won't shake up the audience though. We knew that. Why did you give so much build up to this? And this isn't a thing like "Tobi is Obito" where everyone figured it out years before and it's just burning away until it can do the big shocking reveal everyone figured out because they're not idiots, this is a genuine "yo we've already shown this to you outright" thing, and it's all this build up...for nothing. Give us new information if you're gonna drag on us this long!

    ON THE OTHER HAND, for the characters this is a genuine revelation. I just wish it was sprung on them in a less pompous mysterious way. And how does this make Ozpin untrustworthy again...? Yang asks why they should believe her, and Raven says "EXACTLY! QUESTION EVERYTHING" which...god. Raven you're bad at this. She disses BigYang and Qrowe which makes Yang made, so the Spring Maiden pops in with...oh god bless these poor idiots.

    The Spring Maiden's weapon is a chakram with a gun in the middle. I don't...need to explain why even in a physics negative series like this that's just really stupid, yeah?

    Anyway, Yang asks the valid question of "why you bad mom" to which Raven replies that she's seen some ****. The leader of the Grimm, people who can return from the dead (Ozpin most likely, and considering the phrasing it means he DOES supersede the taken personality) and magic being real which...I have difficulty with because magic hasn't been shown to be all that impressive or even different from regular Aura stuff and also how do you not believe magic when horrible shadow monsters exist?

    Raven ends this by saying "Qrowe told you about my semblance, but I doubt he ever told you what Ozpin did to us" which...interesting statement, but also those two things don't lead into each other at all. And clearly Qrowe doesn't mind. I'm guessing it's an innocence lost type scenario. But we'll see they were born to be murderous bandits.

    Raven vanishes and the others follow her out into the place she vanished from, and discuss how "well we have magical crystals that let us change the power of our soul by clicking it into a barely related object, but magic doesn't exist" and how that's just really silly to me.

    A raven appears and Yang is like "I've seen that bird before" and...no you have not. You have seen that type of bird before, but not that exact same bird. That's a ridiculous thing to say. But poof it's Raven because plot twist she's the maiden. That's probably what it is. Raven says she won't explain it, but will send them to Qrowe, which she does by opening a portal to him. But she's like "oh but if you stay with me we can have a fresh start and I'll answer all your questions!"

    Raven asks if Yang can trust someone who's kept so much from her. Raven you've kept YOUR ENTIRE YOURSELF from Yang for her ENTIRE LIFE and you have the ability to just go over to her at any time and give her a hug. You're a terrible person, a worse mom, and genuinely an idiot. Yang and Weiss choose to leave, and Raven's like "okay well I guess I'll fight you next time we meet" which...sure. Good job girl. That's how you prove you're the good guy. This is actually a fairly alright scene, because we're not supposed to be on Raven's side, but I wish they made it less clear cut that she's just a wrong idiot.

    Back with Qrowe, he's shocked all his contacts are dead. One or two being dead would make sense, but all? That's a bit much. Then Yang and Weiss show up.

    Quick cut to Ruby and the gang cooking food for the small army Qrowe is going to bring. This is gonna be awkward, I think. She comes into the living room when Qrowe calls and Yang is there and we get a nice, if awkwardly animated, sisterly reunion hug. Ruby gets Weiss in their because why not she needs hugs too. And that's the episode.


    Well. My thoughts:
    Spoiler: V5C6
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    EH. I don't...have any strong feelings about this really. Raven has shown she's basically just awful at what she's doing, and while the writing is serviceable and works I feel like it's a bit too clean, too cut and dry. We're not supposed to side with Raven, but we're supposed to think she has SOME valid points between the bandit lifestyle and crazy badmoming. But no she's just...Ozpin is evil because he hid the fact that the world has an evil villain in it. And also he might of done bads to us. I won't tell you the details just trust be blindly like I told you not to do to anyone.

    The scenes with Qrowe were just...weird. I suspect the idea is that all of the hunters are dead, but it didn't really accomplish getting that across well, and the scene with the bartender in particular was strange. All in all, a very...existent episode.


    I think this is my shortest one of these yet. Counting the episode that was two minutes of footage.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C6 And Upcoming Origins of virus
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    I’d like to see where it says Watts created the virus. Ah, here it is. So the W monogram is what gives the fandom the idea that Watts created the virus. Also the monogram supposedly shows up in Vol 5 when Leo speaks with Watts.

    In any case. I have to agree, the virus is a boring possibility because it has already been played out. Also, back in Vol 2 it was said that they couldn’t find what was done to the CCT without shutting it down, which Ozpin wouldn’t do as it would cause a panic. This upset Ironwood but he agreed and never revisited it. Now that the CCT shutdown and they know the virus is there and what it does, it makes more sense it was found and removed. As Leth mentioned, Ironwood isn’t one to allow such a thing to exist undisturbed. I think Ironwood would get rid of it if he had to tear down every existing piece of equipment and rebuild it.

    Incidentally, Ironwood being upset at Ozpin and seizing control of Vale security carries a lot of new meaning now that we know that Ironwood knows that Ozpin is the immortal head of the effort against Salem. If Ironwood doesn’t trust Ozpin that means he doesn’t an immortal with centuries of experience fighting this war, and the entire world-spanning political infrastructure Ozpin built to resist Salem over generations (including such social engineering feats as making sure everyone forgot about magic and the maidens). Ironwood’s messiah complex, his sense of his own necessity and the urgency of action, now takes on new degrees of messed up.

    He knows very well he is tearing down centuries if not millennium of work in going his own way.
    Spoiler: Black Queen Virus
    Show
    Okay, if that's the sole evidence for Watts being the creator of the Black Queen Virus, I'm no longer assuming that its a given fact anymore. I thought the writers or VAs had mentioned the tidbit because it was never going to come up naturally in the story. Granted, that's pretty solid evidence for it, but its not longer 'certain' evidence.

    And yeah, when Watts addresses Leo at the very end of Leo's scene in the first Chapter of this volume, that stylized W shows up on Leo's desk while Watts is talking and Leo looks at it. Not a supposedly there if you want to go find it yourself.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: V5C6
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    So Qrow finds himself standing at a door with a small girl asking him where her mother is. I suspect he's been in that position before, and that reminder has to hurt.

    I think the way Raven approached her talk was quite clever. If she tells her version of the truth, Yang is likely to just reject it outright, and Ozpin etc. can counter each point with their own version that Yang is more inclined to believe. Simply sowing doubt, the idea of a conspiracy without much detail, could lead Yang or Weiss to finding their own answers, which can be more powerful than someone else's story. There have been studies done IRL that show presenting evidence counter to someone's strongly held believe make them believe it more, not less.

    It also looked like Weiss was the more receptive to the idea, which I'm expecting will come up again later on.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: v5e5 defiance stuff
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Weiss doesn’t merely ignore Ruby’s advice at first, she demeans her, defends herself and her family from perceived attacks by Ruby and Blake, and otherwise set herself apart.
    I was referring to the classroom Grimm fight in v1e9-10, and Weiss' reaction to Ruby advising her on the fight with the Grimm. Defiance would be a poor characterization of that scene.

    However, defiance would also be a poor characterization of the scene from v1c2 that you are referring to. What satisfies Weiss in that scene is recognition of her family's status, which she takes pride in; what frustrates her is Ruby's ignorance and Blake's questioning of the same, as well as Ruby failing to live up to the status of Beacon (another point of pride) in Weiss' eyes. Weiss doesn't defy any of those things, and she doesn't defy Ruby or Blake in any other way, either. Pride wins here, not because it is vague and unspecific, but because it actually matches the specific values and behaviors Weiss displays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Juane asking Weiss to the dance was elaborate and corny and Weiss doesn’t merely refuse him, but slams the door in his face, twice.
    And what's defiant about that? Some words for Weiss' behavior in those scenes would be dismissive, disdainful, contemptuous, haughty - words for behavior towards someone Weiss considers unworthy of romantic consideration, in a situation where she holds the power. Someone who Weiss dismisses specifically as a lower-status social climber seeking to benefit from her own well-established status. I can see the argument against considering this prideful, but there is no reasonable argument for considering it defiance. The power dynamic is completely backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Weiss even complained about Ozpin to another professor.
    Because her pride was hurt by Ruby being picked as leader. And again, what's defiant about that? Seeking validation from one authority, by way of confirming that the other authority should have validated her, is not defiant at all. At most one could say she initially defied Port's assessment of her character by rejecting it...for about three seconds.

    I must reiterate: defiance is not merely spoiling for disagreement or conflict, not in general and particularly not for someone who is supposed to personify defiance. It is willful disregard for some authority, burden, or prevailing state of affairs, and a challenge to that entity. Weiss has this sort of relationship with her father. She has that relationship (now) with the negligent ignorance of Atlas' upper crust, which is a good catch and the first example so far where Weiss' defiance truly outweighs her pride. In the barest sense, she occasionally outwardly defies the negative public perception of the Schnees - even as she privately agrees with it and desires to reform the family. The rest of the time? The rest of the world? Not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I think pride works better in your examples only in the fashion that it describes a broader range of human behavior and so you can pin it on Weiss more often or in more ways. Defiance tends to involve some element of pride, but not vice versa. Weiss is certainly prideful in almost reflectsive manner, and would do things that is consistent with pride, i.e. Weiss offer to pay for ramen (which she then complained about the outcome).
    These are all scenes that were initially brought up specifically as examples of Weiss being defiant, so these examples should work particularly well for defiance. They don't, except when family is involved. If you want to choose a word more specific than pride, have at it, but defiance is not a more specific match for these scenes, it's a less accurate one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I think its Weiss’s very tendency to complain about everyone and everything that shows how defiance defines here. To see things and people as set up against her (like Juane’s advances, I mean seriously, she suggests Juane is interested in her money or family name), even when they are not. Her tendency to take an adversarial stance even against her friends, are all very real and a stronger determination of defiance than pride.
    Complaining is orthogonal to both defiance and pride. Being adversarial is not sufficient to be defiant. The claims you are making are not even close to establishing defiance, so it's not even necessary for me to argue against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    There are plenty of ways to express pride that doesn’t involve being adversarial, defensive or showing other elements of hostility. That isn’t Weiss’s way of being, though. Weiss has anger issues, and always seems taunt, ready to snap at the next person who says or does anything that upsets her. Various versions of the Devil in media are always dripping with pride (he is supposed to be its personification), but those versions are rarely angry (that would be beneath him). In these stories, the Devil opposes or defy people only at critical plot points. For Weiss its an always on possibility.
    "Satan" literally means "enemy" or "adversary", and he is best known for being cast down from heaven after his pride led him to wage war in defiance of God. If you want an example of pride without adversarial character, that is a terrible, terrible choice. In any straight media interpretation, his every action is hostile to humanity and calculated to oppose the Almighty. And your barometer is how often he gets visibly angry? I can't take that seriously, sorry.

    And sure, if you want to choose a word to reflect Weiss' adversarial character in these moments, go for it. I would start with 'indignant'. But defiance is not the word you're looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I think defiance describes Weiss much better, not just because it works better for those critical scenes, but because Pride cannot explain her anger, hostility, and adversarial posture, and because defiance is narrower, and isn’t such a clique personality descriptor.
    There's a critical misunderstanding here: your words indicate that you think I want a single word to describe Weiss. I don't. As I've said before, I think it's a good thing that Weiss can't be summed up in one word. I don't think Weiss begins and ends with her pride, and every time you attack that position you're talking to someone other than me. So I don't care about any of your criticisms on that score.

    With that said, to dismiss Weiss' evident pride in her name, status, and abilities just because it's broad or cliche is absurd. Say what you like about the choice to make pride a major feature of Weiss' character that motivates many of her decisions, emotions and actions, but that's exactly what it is.

    Meanwhile, defiance is a terrible explanation of the non-family scenes brought up as evidence that Weiss personifies defiance, and pride explains those scenes better.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Spoiler: v5e5 defiance stuff
    Show

    I was referring to the classroom Grimm fight in v1e9-10, and Weiss' reaction to Ruby advising her on the fight with the Grimm. Defiance would be a poor characterization of that scene.

    However, defiance would also be a poor characterization of the scene from v1c2 that you are referring to. What satisfies Weiss in that scene is recognition of her family's status, which she takes pride in; what frustrates her is Ruby's ignorance and Blake's questioning of the same, as well as Ruby failing to live up to the status of Beacon (another point of pride) in Weiss' eyes. Weiss doesn't defy any of those things, and she doesn't defy Ruby or Blake in any other way, either. Pride wins here, not because it is vague and unspecific, but because it actually matches the specific values and behaviors Weiss displays.


    And what's defiant about that? Some words for Weiss' behavior in those scenes would be dismissive, disdainful, contemptuous, haughty - words for behavior towards someone Weiss considers unworthy of romantic consideration, in a situation where she holds the power. Someone who Weiss dismisses specifically as a lower-status social climber seeking to benefit from her own well-established status. I can see the argument against considering this prideful, but there is no reasonable argument for considering it defiance. The power dynamic is completely backwards.


    Because her pride was hurt by Ruby being picked as leader. And again, what's defiant about that? Seeking validation from one authority, by way of confirming that the other authority should have validated her, is not defiant at all. At most one could say she initially defied Port's assessment of her character by rejecting it...for about three seconds.

    I must reiterate: defiance is not merely spoiling for disagreement or conflict, not in general and particularly not for someone who is supposed to personify defiance. It is willful disregard for some authority, burden, or prevailing state of affairs, and a challenge to that entity. Weiss has this sort of relationship with her father. She has that relationship (now) with the negligent ignorance of Atlas' upper crust, which is a good catch and the first example so far where Weiss' defiance truly outweighs her pride. In the barest sense, she occasionally outwardly defies the negative public perception of the Schnees - even as she privately agrees with it and desires to reform the family. The rest of the time? The rest of the world? Not so much.


    These are all scenes that were initially brought up specifically as examples of Weiss being defiant, so these examples should work particularly well for defiance. They don't, except when family is involved. If you want to choose a word more specific than pride, have at it, but defiance is not a more specific match for these scenes, it's a less accurate one.


    Complaining is orthogonal to both defiance and pride. Being adversarial is not sufficient to be defiant. The claims you are making are not even close to establishing defiance, so it's not even necessary for me to argue against them.


    "Satan" literally means "enemy" or "adversary", and he is best known for being cast down from heaven after his pride led him to wage war in defiance of God. If you want an example of pride without adversarial character, that is a terrible, terrible choice. In any straight media interpretation, his every action is hostile to humanity and calculated to oppose the Almighty. And your barometer is how often he gets visibly angry? I can't take that seriously, sorry.

    And sure, if you want to choose a word to reflect Weiss' adversarial character in these moments, go for it. I would start with 'indignant'. But defiance is not the word you're looking for.


    There's a critical misunderstanding here: your words indicate that you think I want a single word to describe Weiss. I don't. As I've said before, I think it's a good thing that Weiss can't be summed up in one word. I don't think Weiss begins and ends with her pride, and every time you attack that position you're talking to someone other than me. So I don't care about any of your criticisms on that score.

    With that said, to dismiss Weiss' evident pride in her name, status, and abilities just because it's broad or cliche is absurd. Say what you like about the choice to make pride a major feature of Weiss' character that motivates many of her decisions, emotions and actions, but that's exactly what it is.

    Meanwhile, defiance is a terrible explanation of the non-family scenes brought up as evidence that Weiss personifies defiance, and pride explains those scenes better.
    Spoiler: Therefore- I am not defying you
    Show
    The one word thing is stated by Blake. I merely say that, if you are going to use a single word to describe Weiss, defiance is more interesting word and targets her key driving motivations better than pride.

    Also my point is the Devil in some recent decades fiction, not the book of Job or Revelations. The Devil’s Advocate version doesn’t seem all that adversarial, and he’s a lawyer. He’s very accomadating. Any relation to a figure of religion is purely coincidental.


    The whole idea that characters can be summed up in one word is an inside joke. Blake is saying this to Sun, who is the one character that was inspired from a single word that Monty, Miles, and Kerry used to describe and build the character. That word, by the way, was “abs.”
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: Therefore- I am not defying you
    Show
    The one word thing is stated by Blake. I merely say that, if you are going to use a single word to describe Weiss, defiance is more interesting word and targets her key driving motivations better than pride.

    Also my point is the Devil in some recent decades fiction, not the book of Job or Revelations. The Devil’s Advocate version doesn’t seem all that adversarial, and he’s a lawyer. He’s very accomadating. Any relation to a figure of religion is purely coincidental.


    The whole idea that characters can be summed up in one word is an inside joke. Blake is saying this to Sun, who is the one character that was inspired from a single word that Monty, Miles, and Kerry used to describe and build the character. That word, by the way, was “abs.”
    That is absolutely terrible for multiple reasons, not the least of which is that if this is all meant to be a big joke, they should of treated it like one instead of framing it as some actually important bit of character for Blake.

    So yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that no, this isn't an inside joke, and while you can read it that way the writers intended this to be a big characterization moment for Blake, and screwed it up. Again, Weiss is both very much pride and defiance, they kind of go hand in hand. I would say she is mainly prideful before defiant, but it could really go either way. However, with regards to WEISS AND BLAKE'S INTERACTIONS, Weiss has shown nothing but dogged pride to her, not defiance. So it's still wrong.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Personally the one word thing does not sound like a joke, but it sounds like the creators tell too much of the character's "origin story."

    Note I am not talking about the character in-world origin story, like "this is how a superhero came to be in the Marvel Universe." No I am referring to this is the characters "out-world" origin story (this needs a better label) of what the creator was thinking or doing when he thought up the character for the first time. Or this is how I describe to a 2nd person during a brainstorm session where we are still brainstorming up the character.

    It feels like a very "do not look behind the curtain" and it does not work as a narrative device because it reveals too much, it does not reveal too much of the character in-world, but instead it draws you into an uncanny valley where suddenly you are aware of these characters as flat 2d constructs (see mercury and emerald in season 1) instead of organic storytelling beings.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Personally the one word thing does not sound like a joke, but it sounds like the creators tell too much of the character's "origin story."

    Note I am not talking about the character in-world origin story, like "this is how a superhero came to be in the Marvel Universe." No I am referring to this is the characters "out-world" origin story (this needs a better label) of what the creator was thinking or doing when he thought up the character for the first time. Or this is how I describe to a 2nd person during a brainstorm session where we are still brainstorming up the character.

    It feels like a very "do not look behind the curtain" and it does not work as a narrative device because it reveals too much, it does not reveal too much of the character in-world, but instead it draws you into an uncanny valley where suddenly you are aware of these characters as flat 2d constructs (see mercury and emerald in season 1) instead of organic storytelling beings.
    Like I said, it's like looking at a character sheet, but in universe. It feels wrong and is a genuine case of the writing being Outright Wrong instead of just subjectively bad to various degrees. People don't talk like this, and those that do are creepy dudes who keep lists of how many points he needs before a girl friend will sleep with him. It also feels entirely out of character for Blake to describe her idea of seeing people's qualities in such a focused, non flowery or elaborate method.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: V5C6
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    Raven ends this by saying "Qrowe told you about my semblance, but I doubt he ever told you what Ozpin did to us" which...interesting statement, but also those two things don't lead into each other at all.
    Spoiler: V05E06
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    I think she's emphasising that the shapeshifting power she's about to demonstrate is not her Semblance.


    Spoiler: V5C6
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    A raven appears and Yang is like "I've seen that bird before" and...no you have not. You have seen that type of bird before, but not that exact same bird. That's a ridiculous thing to say. But poof it's Raven because plot twist she's the maiden. That's probably what it is."
    Spoiler: V05E06
    Show
    Qrowe is strongly implied to be a shapeshifter too. So it's unlikely that Raven's trick stems from being a Maiden. Of course, that'd mean that there's yet another new category of supernatural power. How many are we going to have by the time RWBY ends?
    Last edited by Anyr; 2017-11-22 at 11:31 AM.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Anyr View Post
    Spoiler: V05E06
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    I think she's emphasising that the shapeshifting power she's about to demonstrate is not her Semblance.




    Spoiler: V05E06
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    Qrowe is strongly implied to be a shapeshifter too. So it's unlikely that Raven's trick stems from being a Maiden. Of course, that'd mean that there's yet another new category of supernatural power. How many are we going to have by the time RWBY ends?
    Spoiler: V5C6
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    Too many. And I really think the whole "Qrowe and Raven can turn into crows and ravens" thing is...really silly.


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