RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

[LaZodiac]

I just realized while thinking about Cowboy Bebop that the RWBY people were trying to emulate Vicious with Adam Taurus.

1st) Vicious is an over-rated Bebop character. He works but he is also an empty character and add anything more to his story and he will fall apart like a house of cards.
2nd) Adam is no Vicious.
3rd) It shows that once again RWBY people are over their head when they tried to retell the story of Vicious in Vol 5 of RWBY. They do not realize there own limitations.

I just threw up in my mouth thinking about this.

It's like the Gourry/Jaune connection all over again.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I just threw up in my mouth thinking about this.

It's like the Gourry/Jaune connection all over again.

You mean just as groundless?

Also, I never liked Vincent from Cowboy Bebop, I thought Vincent (from the Cowboy Bebop movie) made for a better finale than Vicious did..but then again I also didn't like the end of Cowboy Bebop.

[LaZodiac]

You mean just as groundless?

Also, I never liked Vincent from Cowboy Bebop, I thought Vincent (from the Cowboy Bebop movie) made for a better finale than Vicious did..but then again I also didn't like the end of Cowboy Bebop.

Superficial similarities that make me annoyed but are fun to be exaggeratedly angry about, actually

[Lord Raziere]

Or L sitting in his chair all weird since it feels comfortable.

.....I sit like that all the time honestly. I guess I'm just used to it. >_> though I've also squatted like Tyrian does sometimes to. I never thought it weird, just an indication that the person has some differences from the society around them. L was pretty eccentric in many ways.

[Ramza00]

I just threw up in my mouth thinking about this.

It's like the Gourry/Jaune connection all over again.

You mean just as groundless?

Also, I never liked Vincent from Cowboy Bebop, I thought Vincent (from the Cowboy Bebop movie) made for a better finale than Vicious did..but then again I also didn't like the end of Cowboy Bebop.

Perhaps Spike and Julia reincarnated /

Into the "bad place" /

That is RWBY /

And that is how Bumblebee was born!

[The Fury]

I just threw up in my mouth thinking about this.

It's like the Gourry/Jaune connection all over again.

I could believe Adam=Vicious before Jaune=Gourry personally. Maybe it's because the latter sends me down a rabbit hole of pretty bizarre reasoning. (If Jaune is Gourry, does that mean Pyrrha is Lina Inverse? How much food can Jaune eat? Is Gourry just as prone to motion sickness? etc. I'm very sorry.) Meanwhile Adam's got a katana, cool hair, and a stylish jacket, though I guess he doesn't have a pet bird.

.....I sit like that all the time honestly.

In truth, I do too. Especially during cold mornings.

[Reddish Mage]

I could believe Adam=Vicious before Jaune=Gourry personally. Maybe it's because the latter sends me down a rabbit hole of pretty bizarre reasoning. (If Jaune is Gourry, does that mean Pyrrha is Lina Inverse? How much food can Jaune eat? Is Gourry just as prone to motion sickness? etc. I'm very sorry.) Meanwhile Adam's got a katana, cool hair, and a stylish jacket, though I guess he doesn't have a pet bird.

I've analyzed the Juane=Gourry thing. The two are nothing alike. Juane has book smarts at least, does not have some sort of enormous appetite for food, is completely unskilled as a fighter, is more damsel in distress than white knight, and is defined by being a leader as much as his lack of personal skill. Also Juane pursues a petite girl immediately romantically. The first thing Gourry does is dismiss Lina as a child because of her size.

About the only thing they have in common is the two are both blond protagonists with swords. On that basis Juane can be two thousand other protagonists. Both are also clownish types, I suppose that narrow things a bit, but not enough to say Juane is some sort of expy or any sort of morphed version of Gourry.

Vicious, however, at least we know that the writers saw Coboy Bebop. Other than that, there's lots of intense young anime anatongists out there with way too much power and a bad atittude. There is nothing in Cowboy Bebop and the story of Vicious that seems to parallel what's going on with Adam.

[LaZodiac]

I mean they both have lots of sisters, are from legendary families, and (in Jaune's case we don't don't know this but it seems likely) have ancestral heirloom weapons.

I want to make clear that I brought up this inherently superficial similarity as a joke way back when, and made sure to even emphasis that this time. It's not a serious topic of conversation.

[The Fury]

I've analyzed the Juane=Gourry thing. The two are nothing alike. Juane has book smarts at least, does not have some sort of enormous appetite for food, is completely unskilled as a fighter, is more damsel in distress than white knight, and is defined by being a leader as much as his lack of personal skill. Also Juane pursues a petite girl immediately romantically. The first thing Gourry does is dismiss Lina as a child because of her size.

About the only thing they have in common is the two are both blond protagonists with swords. On that basis Juane can be two thousand other protagonists. Both are also clownish types, I suppose that narrow things a bit, but not enough to say Juane is some sort of expy or any sort of morphed version of Gourry.

Vicious, however, at least we know that the writers saw Coboy Bebop. Other than that, there's lots of intense young anime anatongists out there with way too much power and a bad atittude. There is nothing in Cowboy Bebop and the story of Vicious that seems to parallel what's going on with Adam.

I haven't analyzed anything, though comparison between Gourry and Jaune sounds pretty absurd from the get go, (which I guess it was always meant to be absurd, so that's good.) Vicious meanwhile... yeah since Cowboy Bebop aired there's been a number of fan OCs made that sort of ape that basic style template, (cool hair+cool jacket+katana,) so it's easy to see Adam in that. Yeah, the similarities don't go very deep, but there's not much to Adam as a character either.

I mean they both have lots of sisters, are from legendary families, and (in Jaune's case we don't don't know this but it seems likely) have ancestral heirloom weapons.

I want to make clear that I brought up this inherently superficial similarity as a joke way back when, and made sure to even emphasis that this time. It's not a serious topic of conversation.

It might not be, but RWBY doesn't lend itself to serious discussion super well. Or maybe I just prefer silly discussion. So I say Jaune is D**k Saucer from Dragon Half. They're both blond, wear white armor and both crappy at returning the affections of the redheads that pine for them. Oh, and they both have scenes where they sing.

[Ramza00]

I haven't analyzed anything, though comparison between Gourry and Jaune sounds pretty absurd from the get go, (which I guess it was always meant to be absurd, so that's good.) Vicious meanwhile... yeah since Cowboy Bebop aired there's been a number of fan OCs made that sort of ape that basic style template, (cool hair+cool jacket+katana,) so it's easy to see Adam in that. Yeah, the similarities don't go very deep, but there's not much to Adam as a character either.

RWBY is pure mimesis a greek word that means "to act / to imitate / to emulate," aka when a child plays pretend and emulates a parent or a hero they are doing mimesis. We also get the English words mimicry, meme, and mime from the greek word mimesis.

But in the greek language there is a counterpart word called diegesis which means "to narrate." These words are like brothers for they provide very different styles of learning, for to narrate you have to "grok" something and understand it well enough in order to do it instead of merely "to act / to immitate / to emulate." They also provide different benefits in storytelling, for

one inspires^M, one critiques^D /

one represents^M, the other reports^D /

one embodies^M, the other narrates^D /

one transforms^M, the other indicates^D /

one knows only a continuous present^M, the other looks back on a past^D.

-------






So back to RWBY!

Why did I spend all those sentences to explain two greek words that seem so very apart from RWBY? It is because the writers / creators of RWBY seem to excel at one style of storytelling but is entirely lacking with the other style of storytelling. RWBY is pure concept art and is horrible in the telling of a story. It is pure "memes" as in mimesis where they act / imitate the past with something that inspired them prior and then they give their own spin with it but they never really integrate with the story.

Yes Adam is probably inspired by Vicious but he also is probably inspired by half a dozen other characters and swirled together into what we got. But now that I see the Vicious stuff I can't unsee it. Now if RWBY was good at the other style of storytelling we will forget the characters that inspire Adam for Adam will become his own thing and we will forget the colors that inspired him.

[Reddish Mage]

I mean they both have lots of sisters, are from legendary families, and (in Jaune's case we don't don't know this but it seems likely) have ancestral heirloom weapons.

I want to make clear that I brought up this inherently superficial similarity as a joke way back when, and made sure to even emphasis that this time. It's not a serious topic of conversation.

Juane's weapon is his grandfather's and its the only one among the student's at Beacon. That's the first thing he talks to Ruby about (right after they established Ruby is a weapon nut). For more, read the wiki for Juane and look up the commentary, they actually give his sword a name (Crescent Mors after Caesar's own sword).

It might not be, but RWBY doesn't lend itself to serious discussion super well. Or maybe I just prefer silly discussion. So I say Jaune is D**k Saucer from Dragon Half. They're both blond, wear white armor and both crappy at returning the affections of the redheads that pine for them. Oh, and they both have scenes where they sing.

I think the **** Saucer comparison is actually more apt.

RWBY is pure concept art and is horrible in the telling of a story. It is pure "memes" as in mimesis where they act / imitate the past with something that inspired them prior and then they give their own spin with it but they never really integrate with the story.

Yes Adam is probably inspired by Vicious but he also is probably inspired by half a dozen other characters and swirled together into what we got. But now that I see the Vicious stuff I can't unsee it. Now if RWBY was good at the other style of storytelling we will forget the characters that inspire Adam for Adam will become his own thing and we will forget the colors that inspired him.

Every film/tv show/etc starts with the concept and gets down to brass tacks when they get into writing and execution. It's not "memesis" or whatever, its just how its done. Maybe some gifted authors can just sit down and start writing, the rest of us have to imagine something first, especially if its in collaboration. The only reason you see it as a meme is because you've seen lots of RWBY memes. I challenge anyone to come up with a way to capture the main story beats in meme form.

The only reason you see Vicious or anyone else in a RWBY character is because you like some other works and dislike RWBY. There are many cases of real imitiation or a character serving as the basis of inspiration. Its pretty clear what that looks like. Look at All-Might's character or Goku's backstory and think of what American character they might be. This is not one of them.

RWBY characters even have explicit imitations, but I surmise people have anime on the brain and not Joan of Arc or Red Riding Hood.

[Excession]

RWBY characters even have explicit imitations, but I surmise people have anime on the brain and not Joan of Arc or Red Riding Hood.

It's the curse of the film/tv/book critic in some ways. If you consume enough media nothing seems original any more. Except really weird and outlandish stuff that then makes little sense to anyone else. See also TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life.

Crazy Fan Theory Time

In the tale of the four maidens, Winter doesn't give anything tangible to the Wizard, unlike the other seasons. She is described as bringing calm, serenity, and tranquillity.

The name Salem, Wikipedia tells me, is a hellenised form of the Hebrew word "shalom", meaning peace. A synonym of the words used to describe the original winter maiden.

So my theory is that Salem is the original winter maiden. She and her sisters were given a huge amount of power, but that power doesn't make the maidens invincible, and it got Salem's sisters killed. Salem then used her power to make herself immortal, so she could hunt Ozpin for eternity.

This theory does raise a question about the Relic of Creation, supposedly protected by the winter maiden in Atlas. Perhaps that vault is empty; Salem already has the relic, and that's the power she uses to create and control Grimm.

Probably completely wrong, but I find it entertaining to come up with these theories.

[LaZodiac]

It's the curse of the film/tv/book critic in some ways. If you consume enough media nothing seems original any more. Except really weird and outlandish stuff that then makes little sense to anyone else. See also TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life.

Crazy Fan Theory Time

In the tale of the four maidens, Winter doesn't give anything tangible to the Wizard, unlike the other seasons. She is described as bringing calm, serenity, and tranquillity.

The name Salem, Wikipedia tells me, is a hellenised form of the Hebrew word "shalom", meaning peace. A synonym of the words used to describe the original winter maiden.

So my theory is that Salem is the original winter maiden. She and her sisters were given a huge amount of power, but that power doesn't make the maidens invincible, and it got Salem's sisters killed. Salem then used her power to make herself immortal, so she could hunt Ozpin for eternity.

This theory does raise a question about the Relic of Creation, supposedly protected by the winter maiden in Atlas. Perhaps that vault is empty; Salem already has the relic, and that's the power she uses to create and control Grimm.

Probably completely wrong, but I find it entertaining to come up with these theories.

God bless your heart, that's a lot of effort and a lot of it seems really reasonable and cool a theory!

Salem looks identical to the winter maiden.

So your theory is right, but all the world you've done to prove it is probably incidental.

[Excession]

God bless your heart, that's a lot of effort and a lot of it seems really reasonable and cool a theory!

Salem looks identical to the winter maiden.

So your theory is right, but all the world you've done to prove it is probably incidental.

That is roughly the point I started from, but it wasn't enough. Roughly the same hair in two different animation styles could just be coincidence. The meaningful name adds a lot of weight, especially given how much the writers like that trope.

A possible counter argument is that it's the same story as Hazel, which seems a bit repetitive.

[LaZodiac]

That is roughly the point I started from, but it wasn't enough. Roughly the same hair in two different animation styles could just be coincidence. The meaningful name adds a lot of weight, especially given how much the writers like that trope.

A possible counter argument is that it's the same story as Hazel, which seems a bit repetitive.

The details of your story as to WHY she's evil is probably wrong, yeah, but Salem being the Winter Maiden is such an obvious tell that I'm actually confident enough to say it IS true, regardless of how accurate it sounds. Also, it's not just her hair, it's her outfit and body shape, facial appearance, and so on.

It's the "Tobi is Obito" of this series. It's an obvious tell and every scrap of information makes it more clearly true.

[Reddish Mage]

Crazy Fan Theory Time

In the tale of the four maidens, Winter doesn't give anything tangible to the Wizard, unlike the other seasons. She is described as bringing calm, serenity, and tranquillity.

The name Salem, Wikipedia tells me, is a hellenised form of the Hebrew word "shalom", meaning peace. A synonym of the words used to describe the original winter maiden.

So my theory is that Salem is the original winter maiden. She and her sisters were given a huge amount of power, but that power doesn't make the maidens invincible, and it got Salem's sisters killed. Salem then used her power to make herself immortal, so she could hunt Ozpin for eternity.

This theory does raise a question about the Relic of Creation, supposedly protected by the winter maiden in Atlas. Perhaps that vault is empty; Salem already has the relic, and that's the power she uses to create and control Grimm.

Probably completely wrong, but I find it entertaining to come up with these theories.

They tell us the original maidens died and their power passed on. Additionally, Salem was the original antagonist thought up in Season 1. Monty didn’t even think up the maidens until he after Volume 2 as he was working on Volume 3 (shortly before his death) according to the Volume 3 DVD commentary.

Now, I suppose its possible they could be hiding something, but that’d be a pretty big thing to withhold.

As far as Salem having the winter relic, there is little reason to think this except as an extension of your fan theory that she is the Winter Maiden because she has the hair style and the right name (Salem also reminds me of a particular town where particular things went on that I think is more likely her source of inspiration than etymology).

On the other side, we are currently told that the four relics are sealed away at the academy (except Ozpin’s). We are also told that the relic of knowledge has to be brought to Atlas at all costs. It seems odd that they specifically need it there if Atlas no longer has its relic.

Contrary to Salem being “Winter Maiden” being hinted at, there is really nothing to suggest it except the widespread tendency to keep the number of characters down in a show.

I would stipulate there is a law of preservation of characters, resulting that when a new mystery character is mentioned or suggested, particular those with suppressed identities, existing characters are naturally candidates to fulfill the role.

However, this law is better as fan theory fodder than anything else. Particularly in a show like RWBY where they have shown no restraint whatsoever at trying to keep the cast to a manageable level. I doubt most of the people commentating here can even name all the named characters that’s appeared in at least three episodes.

[The Fury]

Juane's weapon is his grandfather's and its the only one among the student's at Beacon. That's the first thing he talks to Ruby about (right after they established Ruby is a weapon nut). For more, read the wiki for Juane and look up the commentary, they actually give his sword a name (Crescent Mors after Caesar's own sword).

This is admittedly pedantic as all get out, but it's Crocea Mors. I think you might've been mentally crossing Jaune's weapon with Ruby's. There's also that bit where Caesar's sword ends up getting stuck in a shield, which is a neat detail when you consider Jaune's shield/scabbard dealie.

I think the **** Saucer comparison is actually more apt.

What, really? If you say so. I was just trying to say something ridiculous and I had Dragon Half on the brain since it was the last manga I read. Now I sort of want to see Chibi!Pyrrha doing the Dragon Half Dance.

As for Salem being The Winter Maiden... she might be. Though I feel like that raises more questions than it answers. Like, if Salem is The Winter Maiden, and she already has the Relic of Creation, why are our heroes heading to Atlas? Ozpin probably would know if Salem had the Relic, right? Are they trying to hide Haven's relic in Atlas? Wouldn't that make it easier for Salem to find rather than harder?

Again, sorry. I'm rambling now.

Though, something I'm rolling around in the ol' brainpan now is that Salem might not be the current Winter Maiden, but rather some weird mystical entity possessing and reanimating the original Winter Maiden's corpse. I'm not sure if Remnant is a setting where this kind of thing can happen, but it would explain Salem's corpse-like palor and generally creepy character design. It also seems in line with her role as a being of similar power and age to Ozpin.

[LaZodiac]

This is admittedly pedantic as all get out, but it's Crocea Mors. I think you might've been mentally crossing Jaune's weapon with Ruby's. There's also that bit where Caesar's sword ends up getting stuck in a shield, which is a neat detail when you consider Jaune's shield/scabbard dealie.

What, really? If you say so. I was just trying to say something ridiculous and I had Dragon Half on the brain since it was the last manga I read. Now I sort of want to see Chibi!Pyrrha doing the Dragon Half Dance.

As for Salem being The Winter Maiden... she might be. Though I feel like that raises more questions than it answers. Like, if Salem is The Winter Maiden, and she already has the Relic of Creation, why are our heroes heading to Atlas? Ozpin probably would know if Salem had the Relic, right? Are they trying to hide Haven's relic in Atlas? Wouldn't that make it easier for Salem to find rather than harder?

Again, sorry. I'm rambling now.

Though, something I'm rolling around in the ol' brainpan now is that Salem might not be the current Winter Maiden, but rather some weird mystical entity possessing and reanimating the original Winter Maiden's corpse. I'm not sure if Remnant is a setting where this kind of thing can happen, but it would explain Salem's corpse-like palor and generally creepy character design. It also seems in line with her role as a being of similar power and age to Ozpin.

I doubt she has any relics, she's just dead and revived by the dark power of the Grim or whatever, thus all her spookiness.

"Some weird mystical entity possessing and reanimating the original corpse" sounds equal parts similar and different from Ozpin, so I could see that too. But the physical similarities are too overt for it to not be the case.

[Reddish Mage]

I doubt she has any relics, she's just dead and revived by the dark power of the Grim or whatever, thus all her spookiness.

"Some weird mystical entity possessing and reanimating the original corpse" sounds equal parts similar and different from Ozpin, so I could see that too. But the physical similarities are too overt for it to not be the case.

Overt? Salem has a white theme and (supposedly) similar hair.



I really don't see the similarities myself.

Now glowing red eyes, ghost white face and exposed veins all suggests things like death and myticism, but it doesn't follow she is a reanimated grimm corpse....Now, we know she has incredible grimm powers and that Cinder was made part grimm, so it wouldn't be surprising if Salem has grimm powrs as well, and that's how she gets her immortality...ok really whether she's a walking corpse or a living grimm/hybrid at this point is really just a matter of semantics.

[LaZodiac]

To be fair I forgot how the Winter Maiden's hair dongles where, but I still think it's fair a comparison.

[Reddish Mage]

So anyone got a lock on the release schedule and any other preview material. I see they are doing a one-day theater screening on Oct 26. Last time I saw one though it was pretty weak. All they showed was the episode and the back few episodes with a bit of preview.

Compare when they did season 1 as a movie. We got RWBY Chibi shorts before it was a thing (with some very differently edited scenes from the release). We got previews of their next movie, and special commentary and sneak peaks that actually showed novel unreleased or announced things.

[The Fury]

We got a traaailer oh boy!

Spoiler: RWBY Volume 6 trailer

Show

So, right off the bat-- who's this rando sitting on Yang's bike as she's pushing it? Someone too important to walk? Someone who can't walk?

Other than that, I like Weiss's red scarf. She looks cute with it. Also, it's nice that she's incorporating red into her outfit again. Also, it looks like Ruby will be better about remembering to use her speedster Semblance.

[Delicious Taffy]

Spoiler: RWBY Volume 6 trailer

Show

Also, it looks like Ruby will be better about remembering to use her speedster Semblance.

Spoiler: RWBY Volume 6 trailer

Show

Wait, Ruby has a Semblance??? I totally forgot about that, just like the writers.

[Reddish Mage]

We got a traaailer oh boy!

Spoiler: RWBY Volume 6 trailer

Show

So, right off the bat-- who's this rando sitting on Yang's bike as she's pushing it? Someone too important to walk? Someone who can't walk?

Other than that, I like Weiss's red scarf. She looks cute with it. Also, it's nice that she's incorporating red into her outfit again. Also, it looks like Ruby will be better about remembering to use her speedster Semblance.

Spoiler: S6 Trailer 1

Show

Ruby isn’t just speeding, she is clearly flying!

The dude on Yang’s bike has distinctive goggles and no visible injuries so I’m guessing a new character. On third watch, the guy doesn’t look too unique and he’s bent over sitting sideways so I’d say an injured rando.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: S6 Trailer 1

Show

Ruby isn’t just speeding, she is clearly flying!

The dude on Yang’s bike has distinctive goggles and no visible injuries so I’m guessing a new character. On third watch, the guy doesn’t look too unique and he’s bent over sitting sideways so I’d say an injured rando.

Spoiler: S6 Trailer

Show

I'm like 90% confident that's an old woman. She also shows up later in the trailer.

[The Fury]

Spoiler: S6 Trailer

Show

I'm like 90% confident that's an old woman. She also shows up later in the trailer.

Spoiler: Hitch up the Vol 6 Trailer!

Show

I'm not so sure. I thought that was the case too, then I noticed the person sitting sidesaddle on the bike appears to have dark hair under their hood. The old woman, (whom I've nicknamed Nana Goggles,) has hair that's gone white.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: Hitch up the Vol 6 Trailer!

Show

I'm not so sure. I thought that was the case too, then I noticed the person sitting sidesaddle on the bike appears to have dark hair under their hood. The old woman, (whom I've nicknamed Nana Goggles,) has hair that's gone white.

Spoiler: S6 Trailer

Show

I'm pretty sure:

[The Fury]

Spoiler: S6 Trailer

Show

I'm pretty sure:

Spoiler: Vol 6... towing the trailer!

Show

It took a little fiddling to be able to view the image, (Ugh... Imgur strikes again...) but it looks like you were right. For some reason, it looked like a dark-haired person wearing a hood to me. I'll chalk it up to my crappy monitor.

Yay, Nana Goggles! I guess she's going to be an important character then.

[Celestia]

Spoiler: Vol 6... towing the trailer!

Show

It took a little fiddling to be able to view the image, (Ugh... Imgur strikes again...) but it looks like you were right. For some reason, it looked like a dark-haired person wearing a hood to me. I'll chalk it up to my crappy monitor.

Yay, Nana Goggles! I guess she's going to be an important character then.

Spoiler

Show

From what I've seen in other places, the most common predictions are that she's either the winter maiden or a silver-eyed warrior (the goggles are either hiding or replacing her eyes)

Also, a lot of people (myself included) think she looks like old Katara.

[Ramza00]

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