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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    I am belated in giving credit where it's due - the fight in episode 10 was quite coherent and well-paced. No fight since Beacon fell has been better in that regard, IMO. Closest would probably be Tyrian. Apart from a few quibbles (like the fist-on-fist rapid punching scene), I enjoyed it from start to finish.

    Spoiler: v5c12
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    Which is why I'm confused as to how the show can go so quickly from that fight to this hot mess. There's a point in episode 10 where one of the fox bros yells at Ilia, "What are you doing?! Fight!" I feel like someone should have yelled that at practically every character in this episode (save Raven and Vernal). Whether it was huddling uselessly around Weiss, dumping Hazel's backstory on us, wandering off to prematurely launch the next stage of the plan, having a round of gratuitous inspiring statements, or politely waiting for the heroes to get back on their feet, everyone seemed to be finding some way to behave like they weren't in a fight in the middle of their fight.

    Somehow the big moment Hazel had been building towards for two seasons where the gentle giant turned into a raging one-man rampage was made to feel meaningless. His rage was shown, then immediately explained, then refuted by a child, then reduced to background noise for Ruby's pep talk, all in the span of a few minutes. And that's the only fight in the main hall given substantial attention this episode.

    Jaune's Semblance turns out to be the most straightforward option. I swear, they better not use this to pair Weiss and Jaune. Maybe I'm imagining them hinting in that direction, but if I'm not, it's gonna be so frustrating when it happens. Anyway, it was very nice of 5/7 of team evil to let 5/8 of team good sit around like that for most of an episode.

    Moving to the Relic chamber, I can understand why Raven and Vernal would be none too reluctant to let Cinder even the odds upstairs. I suppose Cinder just wanted to fight them without any distractions more than she wanted to take care of our heroes - fine, I guess I can buy that. Her having ice powers is a surprise, but whatever, Maidens can do what they want.

    The only thing I could call foreshadowing that Vernal wasn't the Spring Maiden is that that her eyes didn't do the Maiden thing when she demonstrated 'her' power in camp. And Raven's eyes were covered, of course. I think it still raises more questions about who knew what and when things happened than it answers, though the theory that Raven inherited the powers from a recently-deceased Spring would mostly take care of that. Vernal becomes much less interesting. I'm still puzzling through what implications this has for Raven as a character, and of course that depends on incomplete information, but speculating about that is more fun than blowing the load all at once as was done with Hazel.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2018-01-09 at 04:37 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I am belated in giving credit where it's due - the fight in episode 10 was quite coherent and well-paced. No fight since Beacon fell has been better in that regard, IMO. Closest would probably be Tyrian. Apart from a few quibbles (like the fist-on-fist rapid punching scene), I enjoyed it from start to finish.

    Spoiler: v5c12
    Show
    Which is why I'm confused as to how the show can go so quickly from that fight to this hot mess. There's a point in episode 10 where one of the fox bros yells at Ilia, "What are you doing?! Fight!" I feel like someone should have yelled that at practically every character in this episode (save Raven and Vernal). Whether it was huddling uselessly around Weiss, dumping Hazel's backstory on us, wandering off to prematurely launch the next stage of the plan, having a round of gratuitous inspiring statements, or politely waiting for the heroes to get back on their feet, everyone seemed to be finding some way to behave like they weren't in a fight in the middle of their fight.

    Somehow the big moment Hazel had been building towards for two seasons where the gentle giant turned into a raging one-man rampage was made to feel meaningless. His rage was shown, then immediately explained, then refuted by a child, then reduced to background noise for Ruby's pep talk, all in the span of a few minutes. And that's the only fight in the main hall given substantial attention this episode.

    Jaune's Semblance turns out to be the most straightforward option. I swear, they better not use this to pair Weiss and Jaune. Maybe I'm imagining them hinting in that direction, but if I'm not, it's gonna be so frustrating when it happens. Anyway, it was very nice of 5/7 of team evil to let 5/8 of team good sit around like that for most of an episode.

    Moving to the Relic chamber, I can understand why Raven and Vernal would be none too reluctant to let Cinder even the odds upstairs. I suppose Cinder just wanted to fight them without any distractions more than she wanted to take care of our heroes - fine, I guess I can buy that. Her having ice powers is a surprise, but whatever, Maidens can do what they want.

    The only thing I could call foreshadowing that Vernal wasn't the Spring Maiden is that that her eyes didn't do the Maiden thing when she demonstrated 'her' power in camp. And Raven's eyes were covered, of course. I think it still raises more questions about who knew what and when things happened than it answers, though the theory that Raven inherited the powers from a recently-deceased Spring would mostly take care of that. Vernal becomes much less interesting. I'm still puzzling through what implications this has for Raven as a character, and of course that depends on incomplete information, but speculating about that is more fun than blowing the load all at once as was done with Hazel.
    Ah, thanks for bringing that up and reminding me of it. That's a really poorly done reference to My Hero Academia. It's almost shot for shot if I recall correctly.


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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    So about Pretty Cure. This really is generic 2d anime. The plot, the characters, the tropes, and yes the animation.

    This is what multiple reviews use to criticize the franchise property:

    https://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=793

    https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/rev...ty-cure/.98833

    However, the lone positive "critical" review I found is pretty telling:

    https://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=1011

    "I am a shallow, shameful, hormonal fangirl. The usual devices suckered me in, and, now that I am a member of the translation team for this series, I have dedicated myself into being in it for the long haul." This is a review written by someone who actually works on the anime, and she describes Pretty Cure 5 as much improved over previous versions.

    Here is another review of Pretty Cure 5 from a less biased source.

    "Out of all the Precure shows, Yes! Pretty Cure 5 ranks as one of the least visually impressive. Its animation is frequently awkward and off-model, and the transformed costume designs are awkward and unmemorable..."

    This is the anime equivalent of a Hostess Cupcake. This is what average anime looks like, only prettier. The art often relies on techniques borrowed wholesale from manga. There's a lot of manga-like special effects: the use lines, and sparkles and drawn letters to show motion. Then there's the old big ball explosion which just cover mostly still scenes with light.

    This is a show where talk scenes are often flapping mouths. Where zooming, panning and looping are used with great frequency. In the fight scenes I've been looking at (from top battle scenes lists on YouTube) there is a lot of one-person fighting animations in big group fights: a preponderance of posing going into attacks against blank backgrounds. I'm also seeing a lot of easily drawn monster motion like a spirit creature that is just a balloon head that moves by disappearing into a tube which extends to a point where the head shows up again (rinse and repeat).

    You can personally find all this awesome, but its not what studios do when they are going all in on the fight scenes. This is not big-budget anime. This is not top quality anime. It may not be the bottom of the low-budget anime but it's the sort of thing that glosses over its flaws by being exaggerating all the prettiness.

    Even the fan reviews admit the flaws and laziness to the animation:

    From https://myanimelist.net/anime/1932/Yes_Precure_5

    Spoiler: from a really positive fan review
    Show
    "With regards to the show’s production values, Yes! Precure 5 tends to look quite good on average for a 49 episode series. Character designs are very appealing while the show’s backgrounds are so vividly detailed, they’re almost picturesque. Although there are a few noticeable drops in quality at times, the show knows when to really go full throttle with its art direction. During key moments such as the Cures’ resolutions, greater attention is given to the accompanying lighting effects and expressions of the cast, intensifying the impact of these scenes. Unfortunately, the main area where the animation quality becomes a letdown is during the fight sequences. Outside of a handful of them, there’s a general lack of fluid animation used to detail the Cures’ martial arts, resulting in many of the weekly battles being anticlimactic. It’s a bit of a shame, as the fights are otherwise well scripted; featuring plenty of teamwork and diversity between the Cures’ unique powers."


    Spoiler: More negative fan review
    Show
    "Even worse than the writ*ing is the anim*a*tion. This is a frig*gen Pre*cure series! These things rely on a com*bin*a*tion of advert*ising toys and pretty visu*als. This series got the advert*ising toys aspect down, for bet*ter or for worse. Well, no, just for worse. But the visu*als are awful. An large amount of this series is incredibly lazy pan*ning shots. You know, the ones where the char*ac*ters don’t actu*ally do any move*ment of their body. They’re just held up on a stick and waved about by one of the base*ment mon*keys at Toei just below the bot*tom of the screen. The back*grounds were prob*ably going for that water*col*our look from the likes of Honey and Clover and Nodame Can*tabile, but instead just looks like child*ish scribbles."


    Also, OMG, the first generation Pretty Cure heroes power up by literally swiping a credit card.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-09 at 11:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    So about Pretty Cure. This really is generic 2d anime. The plot, the characters, the tropes, and yes the animation.

    This is what multiple reviews use to criticize the franchise property:

    https://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=793

    https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/rev...ty-cure/.98833

    However, the lone positive "critical" review I found is pretty telling:

    https://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=1011

    "I am a shallow, shameful, hormonal fangirl. The usual devices suckered me in, and, now that I am a member of the translation team for this series, I have dedicated myself into being in it for the long haul." This is a review written by someone who actually works on the anime, and she describes Pretty Cure 5 as much improved over previous versions.

    Here is another review of Pretty Cure 5 from a less biased source.

    "Out of all the Precure shows, Yes! Pretty Cure 5 ranks as one of the least visually impressive. Its animation is frequently awkward and off-model, and the transformed costume designs are awkward and unmemorable..."

    This is the anime equivalent of a Hostess Cupcake. This is what average anime looks like, only prettier. The art often relies on techniques borrowed wholesale from manga. There's a lot of manga-like special effects: the use lines, and sparkles and drawn letters to show motion. Then there's the old big ball explosion which just cover mostly still scenes with light.

    This is a show where talk scenes are often flapping mouths. Where zooming, panning and looping are used with great frequency. In the fight scenes I've been looking at (from top battle scenes lists on YouTube) there is a lot of one-person fighting animations in big group fights: a preponderance of posing going into attacks against blank backgrounds. I'm also seeing a lot of easily drawn monster motion like a spirit creature that is just a balloon head that moves by disappearing into a tube which extends to a point where the head shows up again (rinse and repeat).

    You can personally find all this awesome, but its not what studios do when they are going all in on the fight scenes. This is not big-budget anime. This is not top quality anime. It may not be the bottom of the low-budget anime but it's the sort of thing that glosses over its flaws by being exaggerating all the prettiness.

    Even the fan reviews admit the flaws and laziness to the animation:

    From https://myanimelist.net/anime/1932/Yes_Precure_5

    Spoiler: from a really positive fan review
    Show
    "With regards to the show’s production values, Yes! Precure 5 tends to look quite good on average for a 49 episode series. Character designs are very appealing while the show’s backgrounds are so vividly detailed, they’re almost picturesque. Although there are a few noticeable drops in quality at times, the show knows when to really go full throttle with its art direction. During key moments such as the Cures’ resolutions, greater attention is given to the accompanying lighting effects and expressions of the cast, intensifying the impact of these scenes. Unfortunately, the main area where the animation quality becomes a letdown is during the fight sequences. Outside of a handful of them, there’s a general lack of fluid animation used to detail the Cures’ martial arts, resulting in many of the weekly battles being anticlimactic. It’s a bit of a shame, as the fights are otherwise well scripted; featuring plenty of teamwork and diversity between the Cures’ unique powers."


    Spoiler: More negative fan review
    Show
    "Even worse than the writ*ing is the anim*a*tion. This is a frig*gen Pre*cure series! These things rely on a com*bin*a*tion of advert*ising toys and pretty visu*als. This series got the advert*ising toys aspect down, for bet*ter or for worse. Well, no, just for worse. But the visu*als are awful. An large amount of this series is incredibly lazy pan*ning shots. You know, the ones where the char*ac*ters don’t actu*ally do any move*ment of their body. They’re just held up on a stick and waved about by one of the base*ment mon*keys at Toei just below the bot*tom of the screen. The back*grounds were prob*ably going for that water*col*our look from the likes of Honey and Clover and Nodame Can*tabile, but instead just looks like child*ish scribbles."


    Also, OMG, the first generation Pretty Cure heroes power up by literally swiping a credit card.
    That first review is ****ing unreadable and insufferable. The second review doesn't mention the animation at all...except in ways that it's good. That positive review is also ****ing insufferable to read. I was basing all of what I said on what I've seen of the show, which is the first season of the first anime and that one gif. Not Precure 5, I have no context for this series and thus have nothing to say about it, and have no idea why you'd bring it up when I've tried to emphasize I'm only familiar with the earliest works of the franchise.

    The only real thing I can talk about from this is the following point: This is what average anime looks like, only prettier. The art often relies on techniques borrowed wholesale from manga. There's a lot of manga-like special effects: the use lines, and sparkles and drawn letters to show motion. Then there's the old big ball explosion which just cover mostly still scenes with light.

    What is inherently negative about any of that? Nothing about what you've said is bad, it can just be used poorly. Again, look at the series Enter The Ballroom, a dancing series that is basically just a series of still shots. I'm not using THAT as an example, because it's pretty terrible. Have you ever actually seen a bad anime series, or do you just not like the visual style of anime? I feel like even if I used a generally, 100% accepted as perfect anime fight scene to show you how it can be good, you'd still dislike it because at the end of the day you just don't like it. Here's an early fight scene from Samurai Champloo, the only series I can think of currently that is wildly considered to be basically perfect.


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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The only real thing I can talk about from this is the following point: This is what average anime looks like, only prettier. The art often relies on techniques borrowed wholesale from manga. There's a lot of manga-like special effects: the use lines, and sparkles and drawn letters to show motion. Then there's the old big ball explosion which just cover mostly still scenes with light.

    What is inherently negative about any of that? Nothing about what you've said is bad, it can just be used poorly.
    Nothing, its just, not particularly specially good animation or outstanding for its fights. You are comparing this to RWBY, which although both shows feature a lot of young female heroines, are otherwise very different.

    RWBY's use of 3d "flat looking" animation is something visually unique, it compares better with the anime Mechalich mentioned ( Sidonia, Ajin, and the BLAME!) but is still quite its own thing.

    On the point of which is "better" may be subjective, but RWBY requires a lot more work and creativity of design compared to this sort of anime, whether from the first generation or later (I think the differences only reflect the differences in what mass-produced anime looks like back in the early 2000's till today).



    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Have you ever actually seen a bad anime series, or do you just not like the visual style of anime? I feel like even if I used a generally, 100% accepted as perfect anime fight scene to show you how it can be good, you'd still dislike it because at the end of the day you just don't like it.
    I don't dislike it so much as I think these things are, on both an pure artistic and resources-using level nowhere near RWBY. One of these animations is a groundbreaking work that shows lots of fluid motion, and nowadays involves a lot of fine detail work.


    This is the sort of fight that shows what awesome anime looks like. It is very fluid. I understand the animation in this series is not universally of that level of fluidity and quality but what we see is truly a sight to behold.

    I recalled we compared Samurai Champloo to RWBY a couple of threads ago (was it during season 3?). However, we were comparing specifically Monty's style to "hand-drawn anime." I think the problem with Samurai Champloo is that not every fight is so richly and fluidly animated, its rare for anime to achieve such heights.

    Someone else pointed out the shortcuts they were using to animate this fight at that time and we had a discussion about the differences in technique.

    The point is. In addition to being simply different from anime, RWBY requires a creativity and a resource intensity that exceeds most anime, especially the fights.

    Some anime will do an entire fight scene by simply recycling a few motion sequences complete with backgrounds and not bother with showing the attacks as connecting or even putting the target in the panel. Some anime will show lots of still or barely moving sequences throughout a show even during a fight.

    RWBY makes use of its own shortcuts but never has gone so far as is routine in anime. Still scenes are generally kept to am minimum. Moreover, even in the relatively uninspired parts of the 15 person fight in episode 11 are not still shots, or obviously 100% recycled pieces, nor is there a lot of otherwise still scenes showing flapping mouths on unexpressive faces.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    The point is. In addition to being simply different from anime, RWBY requires a creativity and a resource intensity that exceeds most anime, especially the fights.

    Some anime will do an entire fight scene by simply recycling a few motion sequences complete with backgrounds and not bother with showing the attacks as connecting or even putting the target in the panel. Some anime will show lots of still or barely moving sequences throughout a show even during a fight.

    RWBY makes use of its own shortcuts but never has gone so far as is routine in anime. Still scenes are generally kept to am minimum. Moreover, even in the relatively uninspired parts of the 15 person fight in episode 11 are not still shots, or obviously 100% recycled pieces, nor is there a lot of otherwise still scenes showing flapping mouths on unexpressive faces.
    I don't think that's true at all, given how crazy and overworked anime production tends to be. Look at how some series don't even have an opening or ending theme for the first episode or two because it's just not done yet. Given the fact that all the animators have to do in RWBY is pose models that have already been made, a lot of the actual resource intensity you mention has already been finished. You don't need to redraw Jaune every frame, digitally drawn or otherwise.

    I'd love to see some examples of anime animated badly. Mostly just because I'm curious for an exact example, not that I'm doubting you. It's entirely true that some anime do do that. But they also tend to be incredibly rushed or suffer from budget constraints, which RWBY doesn't really have to worry about because almost all the assets are reusable. Also it wasn't really until season 4 that RWBY had actually good expressive faces. Most of RWBY's animation problems do come from the early seasons, and the jump to an actual program that isn't garbage has helped the animation a ton. Their way of presenting fight scenes still doesn't interest me, but they ARE better animated now.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    I remember Reddish criticizing that fight scene for its slash arcs and frequent cuts last time someone cited it. Someone linked the last Sword of the Stranger fight, too. At that point I think we've basically written off the medium. (I'll throw in another fight scene for kicks.)

    With that said, while anime often puts in work to use its shortcuts in artistically appropriate ways, (a) they're still shortcuts and (b) they're often not used that well, especially in low-budget work that have more shortcuts to deal with. Precure is above average in this regard only in that there's a lot more low-budget dreck than most people outside Japan ever notice, let alone watch, which drags down the curve.

    I want to disagree with Mechalich on one point. Budget is certainly a major factor, and high-budget anime mostly have better-animated and more fluid fight scenes, but the issues that bother Reddish persist as a matter of style. Watch e.g. this fight from Apocrypha and count cuts, look at how many actual attack animations are close-ups to save drawing time, look at how many attacks cut on impact, and so on. The environmental damage is more detailed, the energy attacks are more alive, the attack animations are more dynamic, but that's mostly gonna leave Reddish cold because he doesn't evaluate the quality of fight animation on those terms. He might like Ajin better, but I'm not sure.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I remember Reddish criticizing that fight scene for its slash arcs and frequent cuts last time someone cited it. Someone linked the last Sword of the Stranger fight, too. At that point I think we've basically written off the medium. (I'll throw in another fight scene for kicks.)

    With that said, while anime often puts in work to use its shortcuts in artistically appropriate ways, (a) they're still shortcuts and (b) they're often not used that well, especially in low-budget work that have more shortcuts to deal with. Precure is above average in this regard only in that there's a lot more low-budget dreck than most people outside Japan ever notice, let alone watch, which drags down the curve.

    I want to disagree with Mechalich on one point. Budget is certainly a major factor, and high-budget anime mostly have better-animated and more fluid fight scenes, but the issues that bother Reddish persist as a matter of style. Watch e.g. this fight from Apocrypha and count cuts, look at how many actual attack animations are close-ups to save drawing time, look at how many attacks cut on impact, and so on. The environmental damage is more detailed, the energy attacks are more alive, the attack animations are more dynamic, but that's mostly gonna leave Reddish cold because he doesn't evaluate the quality of fight animation on those terms. He might like Ajin better, but I'm not sure.
    No, I appreciate that Fate/Apocrypha, while admittedly using many of the shortcuts and fundamentals of anime style that a Pretty Cure fight also has, is definitely several notches above. The various special effects are detailed, they are well synched with the sound, and everything shows a lot more attention to lighting, coloration and shading. I notice clashing energies that give at least the visual impression that something is fighting during an explosion sequences, and other indications that things are being well executed. There isn't so much lingering on the shots to draw out the sequences either.

    I think Pretty Cure is particularly lazy in its implementation, the shortcuts are executed in that anime in a way that is especially lazy, obvious, and sequences are drawn out. There is less detail than in other sense.

    Yes I agree this isn't the worse. I can't sight much of the godawful stuff since I don't typically spend a lot of time watching it. I think when you get into the second season of "Ah! My Goddess" TV it really does get that bad , they don't even try to animate a lot of what's going on (especially during fights) and just use stills and special effects. Dragonball Z did a lot of what Pretty Cure does with a different aesthetic and as 90's hand drawn stuff, but they were so obviously over-the-top with it that I suppose one could claim there's an art to it.

    If we go into the 90's 80's 70's a lot of the animation is very stilted and limited. Look at how season 1 of Slayers has Lina off model, how so much of the fights are comically drawn, the number of still scenes and use of camera techniques.

    However, I don't criticize anime as a style.

    Slash arcs in Samurai Champloo are a problem? I must have been talking about the mere existence of shortcuts, because I got the impression at the time the claim was that anime was hand-drawn and this fight used no shortcuts.

    Also LaZodiac last post gives me that impression once again that anime is basically hand-drawn (on a computer input panel) every frame.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I don't think that's true at all, given how crazy and overworked anime production tends to be. Look at how some series don't even have an opening or ending theme for the first episode or two because it's just not done yet. Given the fact that all the animators have to do in RWBY is pose models that have already been made, a lot of the actual resource intensity you mention has already been finished. You don't need to redraw Jaune every frame, digitally drawn or otherwise.

    I'd love to see some examples of anime animated badly. Mostly just because I'm curious for an exact example, not that I'm doubting you. It's entirely true that some anime do do that. But they also tend to be incredibly rushed or suffer from budget constraints, which RWBY doesn't really have to worry about because almost all the assets are reusable.
    The Japanese studios are putting out a lot more content than Rooster Teeth is though. They usually do not have as much time to focus on a single product. There is a quantity over quality aspect since so much anime is produced.

    It's also simply not true that RT just needs to pose finished models and they have a scene. Using computer-guided animation is easier in 3d, but its something anime makes use of as well. The models are not redrawn every frame in either traditional anime or in RWBY.

    RWBY animators DO need to draw the characters all the time. Not everything can be mocapped and actions often have to be hand animated. Even if they are not drawing the actions by hand (and using more primitive adobe illustrator type tools) what comes out of mocapping often looks horrible and needs to be heavily revised by hand frame by frame.

    This was definitely true of the simpler animation of Monty's regime who said he "dreamed of being able to do everything by executing code." Its even more true now that professional animators have expanding the team to over a dozen and instituted a strict pipe line for how everything gets produced (Monty would do a lot of the multiple steps to make animation ready all at once).

    We've been over how animation is actually produced before in a previous thread. Recently, the animators "CRWBY" have put out a show this season called CRWBY: Behind the Episode. I'm not sure about this episode I linked to (and contains linked for the series on RT's site), which focuses on how the fights get done, but the episodes do go into the whole pipeline.

    One of the things I recall is that the special effects team has to modify every effect they capture in 3d because it has to look sort of flat to fit the RWBY aesthetic. Then composite has to add or modify the effects to work into the entire scene. Meanwhile, nothing looks like RWBY until color is added late in the game along with lighting and shading. Some of that work (making everything cast shadows for example) is more intensive in 3d than in 2d (if they are even bothering with shadows).

    I bet there's a lot more hand input drawing to be done in RWBY than in Pretty Cure, but that's my feeling. There is absolutely anime (everything Studio Ghibli) that is far more resource intensive, but not the average stuff.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-09 at 11:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    That's fair.

    Apropos of nothing, this was fun reading.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: V5Chapter12
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    Well okay, so that was mostly predictable. Except for Cinder making a complete mess of the situation out of greed and hunger. Seriously the best case scenario for her is that she fends off Raven, causing her to port out and, then what? She's shown that her boss will take out anyone the minute they aren't of any value. Which either means Raven completely disappearing or begrudgingly throwing in with Ozpin. So as opposed to all objectives complete, no objectives complete and a major players pushed to the other side. I want to see Salem's reaction to THAT.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by jindra34 View Post
    Spoiler: V5Chapter12
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    Well okay, so that was mostly predictable. Except for Cinder making a complete mess of the situation out of greed and hunger. Seriously the best case scenario for her is that she fends off Raven, causing her to port out and, then what? She's shown that her boss will take out anyone the minute they aren't of any value. Which either means Raven completely disappearing or begrudgingly throwing in with Ozpin. So as opposed to all objectives complete, no objectives complete and a major players pushed to the other side. I want to see Salem's reaction to THAT.
    Spoiler: v5c12
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    I'm dubious about Cinder's choice to leave the main hall, but it makes total sense for her to preemptively betray the people who were literally a second away from betraying her, and the best-case scenario here is of course that she wins and gets another Maiden's power.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by jindra34 View Post
    Spoiler: V5Chapter12
    Show
    Well okay, so that was mostly predictable. Except for Cinder making a complete mess of the situation out of greed and hunger. Seriously the best case scenario for her is that she fends off Raven, causing her to port out and, then what? She's shown that her boss will take out anyone the minute they aren't of any value. Which either means Raven completely disappearing or begrudgingly throwing in with Ozpin. So as opposed to all objectives complete, no objectives complete and a major players pushed to the other side. I want to see Salem's reaction to THAT.
    Spoiler: V5C12 Who does what now!?
    Show

    First off, unless you were the sole person to predict Raven was actually the maiden a awhile back I'm not sure how predictable that twist was. There was enough signs (particularly involving her very selective use of the mask) that you can see it was telegraphed but they put out lots of signals that Vernal was the maiden (only going back does it look like Raven was doing all that on purpose to full not only Cinder but Yang, Weiss and ultimately Ozpin as well.

    Second, I don't see Cinder as being outclassed by Raven. I agree with Leth, Cinder can end up winning this fight and ending up with another maiden power. Its not clear she also gets the relic.
    goes against that.
    Finally, Raven often times suggested her number 1 priority was her allegiance to the bandits, abandoning Vernal is something she's unlikely to do unless Vernal (who is similarly allied) sacrifices herself in an attempt to get Raven to go away. In any case, nothing make for an automatic conversion to Ozpin's side.

    I see this as likely ending with Raven dead and Cinder receiving the spring maidens power. There's the option for something to happen and Raven turning, but I think Cinder is going to get something out of this trip.

    They will be interrupted, most likely by Yang, but there's a chance the whole gang arrives and forces Cinder to retreat.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-09 at 11:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: v5c12
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    For the sake of completeness, here's everything I'm aware of that could be construed as a hint that Vernal is not Spring:
    • Raven mocks Cinder's name when Vernal is just as obvious
    • Vernal's eyes don't go when she uses 'her' power
    • Leo doesn't recognize Vernal
    • Vernal acts more like a lifelong devotee to the tribe than a recent convert (which Cinder explains away)

    And everything that could be construed as a hint that Raven is Spring (apart from 'who else could it be'):
    • Raven keeps the mask on when Vernal's doing 'her' thing
    • The 'plan' Raven alluded to with Vernal before meeting Cinder was a bad fit for the stuff they actually did at the meeting, so it was waiting for something to explain it
    • This poster:


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales



    Corvo-Zodi by Cuthalion. I'm not a murderer, I'm a good person! *kills everyone*
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    FWIW, I may have literally been watching a different show, as that looked pretty different (and better quality) than what I was finding on Youtube. The spinning thing still turned me off, though.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Super unrelated, but thanks to this I finally know what show characters like these are from. I live in Japan and see them everywhere (the current Precures, that is), and it's been bugging me for a good while.
    Multas Gratias to Kopaka for the great avatar.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    @LaZodiac: Of you want to see some bad animation in a popular anime,and I don't just mean pausing on a transition frame, check out the first ten or so episodes of Dragon Ball Super.

    One of them is GODDAMN notorious for the bad animation in it and how low budget it was.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C12 Who does what now!?
    Show

    First off, unless you were the sole person to predict Raven was actually the maiden a awhile back I'm not sure how predictable that twist was. There was enough signs (particularly involving her very selective use of the mask) that you can see it was telegraphed but they put out lots of signals that Vernal was the maiden (only going back does it look like Raven was doing all that on purpose to full not only Cinder but Yang, Weiss and ultimately Ozpin as well.

    Second, I don't see Cinder as being outclassed by Raven. I agree with Leth, Cinder can end up winning this fight and ending up with another maiden power. Its not clear she also gets the relic.
    goes against that.
    Finally, Raven often times suggested her number 1 priority was her allegiance to the bandits, abandoning Vernal is something she's unlikely to do unless Vernal (who is similarly allied) sacrifices herself in an attempt to get Raven to go away. In any case, nothing make for an automatic conversion to Ozpin's side.

    I see this as likely ending with Raven dead and Cinder receiving the spring maidens power. There's the option for something to happen and Raven turning, but I think Cinder is going to get something out of this trip.

    They will be interrupted, most likely by Yang, but there's a chance the whole gang arrives and forces Cinder to retreat.
    Spoiler: C5V12
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    I meant pretty much everything after Cinder backstabbing Vernal was suprising. As for her being out classed... I think several years of leadership, application, and survival on the outskirts of civilization has probably counts for quite a lot. Also if Vernal is alive, then she's a portal point and that can get very messy for Cinder. So I don't see Cinder having anywhere near the edge needed to end this without Raven leaving. And Raven just vanishing into the blue would be a very weak story point. So yeah my thoughts.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    I'd like to take a moment to thank Zodi for taking it on herself to watch Episode 12 timely, cause we need to start dissecting that episode before 13 comes out, which will no doubt have a couple more bombshells to drop.

    There's a ton of things on in episode 12 we haven't even started talking about. Mostly because no one has really dissected everything about the episode.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    you want to see some bad animation in a popular anime,and I don't just mean pausing on a transition frame, check out the first ten or so episodes of Dragon Ball Super.

    One of them is GODDAMN notorious for the bad animation in it and how low budget it was.
    Which episode is that? Doesn't the first 10 episodes basically retell the movie Battle of the Gods?


    Quote Originally Posted by jindra34 View Post
    Spoiler: C5V12
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    I meant pretty much everything after Cinder backstabbing Vernal was suprising. As for her being out classed... I think several years of leadership, application, and survival on the outskirts of civilization has probably counts for quite a lot. Also if Vernal is alive, then she's a portal point and that can get very messy for Cinder. So I don't see Cinder having anywhere near the edge needed to end this without Raven leaving. And Raven just vanishing into the blue would be a very weak story point. So yeah my thoughts.
    Spoiler: C5V12 Strong and Strongest
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    Raven is strong. She scares Neo off immediately and basically gives us the impression her skills are amazing. However, being a Queen or a group of bandits that, aside from Vernal, are basically weak mooks, doesn't equal to making on the strongest on the planet. What we have seen her doing is picking on undefended towns outside the Kingdoms, not exactly the stuff that makes for a champion.

    Cinder, on the other hand, has given every indication of being top of the heap. She killed both Ozpin and Pyrrha. She has been trained, personally, by Salem, who every indication is the strongest person on the planet, and finally, Cinder is not only has the powers of a maiden but also a Grimm. Cinder has literally turned herself into a monster in search of power.

    Cinder's unwavering search for power contrasts sharply from Raven, whose response to Salem was to run away and play bandit. Cinder deserves to win this battle. I wouldn't be surprised if Cinder proves capable of taking on Raven, Vernal (if she is even ambulatory) and Yang (if she shows up).

    Raven isn't likely to get out of this by a portal to Vernal. Raven has to open the portal and go through, which isn't fast, and Vernal won't run without instructions to so Raven would just be moving to another spot on the same battle field. She can probably flash step faster (or whatever quick movement animation is appropriate for RWBY).
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-10 at 08:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    So there are two things I'm wondering about, based on this episode and others...
    Spoiler: C5V12
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    Back at the start of the season, why did Qrow tell Leo that Raven had the spring maiden when he already had reason to distrust him? The lack of teachers in the school was immediately suspicious. Related, why the whole spring maiden fake-out if nobody else knew where the maiden/power was? The answer I keep coming back to is "It's a two man con".

    Unrelated, was Cinder stealing the spring power part of the plan? If Cinder crossed Salem there, well, I admire her bravery, but I'm not sure how long she'll last. In hindsight of course, Raven was never planning to give up the relic, and perhaps Salem had predicted that. Another part of this is why was Arthur sent to Raven's camp along with Cinder? Did Salem need someone else there in case of Cinder trying to double cross her?
    Last edited by Excession; 2018-01-10 at 08:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: C5V12 Strong and Strongest
    Show
    Raven is strong. She scares Neo off immediately and basically gives us the impression her skills are amazing. However, being a Queen or a group of bandits that, aside from Vernal, are basically weak mooks, doesn't equal to making on the strongest on the planet. What we have seen her doing is picking on undefended towns outside the Kingdoms, not exactly the stuff that makes for a champion.

    Cinder, on the other hand, has given every indication of being top of the heap. She killed both Ozpin and Pyrrha. She has been trained, personally, by Salem, who every indication is the strongest person on the planet, and finally, Cinder is not only has the powers of a maiden but also a Grimm. Cinder has literally turned herself into a monster in search of power.

    Cinder's unwavering search for power contrasts sharply from Raven, whose response to Salem was to run away and play bandit. Cinder deserves to win this battle. I wouldn't be surprised if Cinder proves capable of taking on Raven, Vernal (if she is even ambulatory) and Yang (if she shows up).

    Raven isn't likely to get out of this by a portal to Vernal. Raven has to open the portal and go through, which isn't fast, and Vernal won't run without instructions to so Raven would just be moving to another spot on the same battle field. She can probably flash step faster (or whatever quick movement animation is appropriate for RWBY).
    Spoiler: v5c12
    Show

    Leo claimed that Raven and Qrow were 'a match.' Presumably this means they were even fighters before any potential maiden powers were added to the calculation. Qrow was a match for Tyrion - who is clearly Salem's murderbot of choice. Cinder admitted that it was Tyrion and Hazel who were engaged in the systematic murder of Haven's Huntsmen and Huntresses, so that implies that Raven is equal to the top tier fighters Salem has in her service. Given other people Qrow has been seen to fight, such as Winter, this suggests that Raven is about as good as it gets, more or less, before drawing on any maiden abilities.

    Of course, the question is complicated in that Cinder isn't so much a fighter as she is a sorceress. Where many characters in RWBY demonstrate amped up kung-fu and operate like action game characters you could easily insert into something like Dynasty Warriors, Cinder relies, and has relied from the start, primarily on her powers. She uses her bow rarely and mostly for dramatic emphasis. As a result Cinder has much better control of her powers than almost any character in the show.

    So Raven is undoubtedly the better fighter than Cinder, while Cinder has better powers. This was the case in the Pyrrha fight as well. Pyrrha regularly gained advantage over Cinder in that fight, only to have Cinder brute-force maiden-blast her way out of binds. I'd expect something fairly similar, at least for a while. I suspect that Vernal, actually, will tip the balance in Cinder's favor, not the other way around. Cinder will have absolutely no qualms about using the wounded Vernal as a human shield to limit Raven fully utilizing the maiden's power or even forcing Raven to expend effort to try and defend Vernal.

    It's worth noting that Cinder can 'win' in a sense without killing Raven. So long as she knocks Raven into the door the vault can be unsealed and she can potentially make off with the relic. Assuming the cavalry does arrive I wouldn't be surprised if she pulled something along those lines. Raven could also subsequently flee through a portal with Vernal to somewhere else - back upstairs to Qrow if nothing else.

    Personally I don't think Team Salem needs a huge win here. The relic is more than enough. Volume 5 has already landed them huge wins: Leo's treachery combined with the systematic destruction of the hunters of Haven and damage from the White Fang attack to come (even though the White Fang's presumably going to lose) means that aside from perhaps a handful of capable Haven students (and I hope we get to see some of them show up to fight the White Fang here) Haven has been more or less wiped from the board as a fighting force. Knocking a second academy out is a massive achievement irrespective of anything else that happens, especially since Salem's not likely to lose any core supporters. I mean, does anyone think Hazel or Cinder dies in this fight? I sure don't. Emerald and Mercury are pawns of little consequence and the White Fang has already accomplished a great deal and even if Blake's cavalry stops them enough damage will have been done to prevent any sort of massive Human+Faunus alliance from forming.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Okay lets see what all the fuss is about.
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    We open effectively where we left off, Weiss taken down and Jaune running off to her, Ruby unconcious because Emerald found her one weakness, head taps, and everything coming across as ominous. Oscar breaks the mood by getting mad and canning Leo in the face and running off to see if everyone's okay. He hits Leo so hard he tumbles down the stairs like a ridiculous ragdoll until he slams into Hazel, barely even moving him. I don't...think comedy in this moment is the right idea, guys. Oscar goes to Ruby instead of Weiss to be like "we need you" and stuff and that...I mean yeah Jaune's got Weiss but come on man. Ruby got knocked out, Weiss is bleeding out on the floor (she's not actually bleeding, sadly).

    Hazel threatens Leo (an odd thing given Hazel's supposed to be the most peaceful of team bad guy) for getting beaten up by a kid, but once he's told it's Ozpin he starts getting mad. And you wouldn't like him when he's mad. Given that he also directly helped this child get to where he was going at one point, I have to imagine Hazel is SUPER pissed. Also Ruby starts to wake up since a soft beating to the head, while her weakness, does not last long. Everyone's briefly happy, but then Hazel shouts out that he's gonna kill Ozpin over and over again for what he's done! Then he rips off his jacket in a very very badly animated and modeled way, takes out four large yellow rocks, and stabs himself in the arms with them. Look man. Even given that we've been given noo information on how dust is actually supposed to work, I DON'T THINK THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.

    Regardless, it pumps him up like the Dust tainted Grimm from the RWBY video game, crackling with electricity because I guess orange is electricity. Fair enough. I wish we knew anything about Hazel or saw him fight "normal" before he did this so we'd have an idea of why this matters. Though Ozpin just going "oh no" in Oscar's head counts for something, I suppose. Same with him telling Oscar that no, no we don't fight this. We run. Qrowe appears to save Oscar from being squished, as team bad guy regroup to be like "wait that child that went to fight Leo iss...Ozpin? Weird!" and prepare to take advantage of the fact that they're winning. Which, given that they planned this rather meticulously as an ambush...you'd think they'd of known to take advantage of the fact that they're winning?

    Cinder orders Leo to open the vault and...it's...the path to the vault is the big angel lady slave statue in the middle of the room. That's a really bad place to hide it, even if it is covered up with a lock that requires fitting a pocketwatch into a hole it doesn't actually fit. Also, not doing a good job of dissuading me from the whole "team Ozpin treats the maidens like items" thing with hiding the vault inside a statue of an enslaved women.

    Nora, Ren, and Jaune stay behind to...take care of Weiss's wound (fair) and take...care of Ruby, who is just unconcious and Nora's just kinda sitting by her for moral support I suppose. It's up to Jaune, Yang, and...who's...who's left again? Qrowe and Ozpin are busy with Hazel so it's just Angry and Stupid Yellow Squad to the rescue. To save the day from...every single villain. Okay. Good luck guys. You'll...be able to get Leo at least?

    Or not, because the rest of the villains aside from probably Cinder Raven and Vernal decide to stick around to stop them from going to the vault proper.

    Okay, NOW Weiss is bleeding. But not like...out, she's just bloody around the wound. Fair, it is a fire spear it probably cauterized the wound. Just a little disappointed. At least chainsaw guy is happy. Jaune and Ren are doing their best...which currently consists of holding a hand over one side of her wound and hoping she doesn't die. All I really hope is that when they do save her, this doesn't make Weiss fall into Jaune's pants or whatever.

    Vernal Cinder and Raven are all going down to the vault. I'd question why they'd...you know, allow Raven to go, given there's literally nothing that can prevent the two from overpowering her.

    Meanwhile Ozpin is trying to take over Oscar so that they can survive the fight with Hazel, and Oscar doesn't want to. Oscar wants to fight for himself, and Ozpin told him to do as much, so he's going to do this fight himself! I mean Ozpin is technically you so...this feels kinda weird a decision on Oscar's part, but also fair. Hazel gives the big speech about how Ozpin didn't tell Oscar what he did to him, and how "your blood won't be on my hands. It'll be on his" which is actually a good sentiment to have for your obstensibly pacifist villain. Hazel is the only person here who makes me think he thinks he's a good guy. Hazel fights with Qrowe a bit and is like "Tell him Ozpin! Tell her how you killed her!" and my initial guess is that he's related to Amber. Ozpin very quickly explains...no. Dude just had a sister, and she died at school during a training mission. And that's why Hazel is super evil now.

    That's...incredibly underwhelming, but alright. I mean it's FAIR, and it gives a nice contrast to all his fellows. It's one of the "inherent things" of this universe that I've kind of wanted to see. People die, they die hard and alone, and this is not a nice setting to live in. Of course you're gonna get people like Hazel. But it doesn't feel appropriate for him to throw his entire life away to a satan just to get revenge on...a bad headmaster.

    Also I don't know how powerful jamming dust into your body is but Qrowe, a master hunter and general badass, cannot beat him. How much did Raven hurt you during that fight we didn't see ever that a man who seems to have no fighting history beyond sticking rocks in his arms can beat you so soundly? Anyway, Oscar...tries to talk Hazel down (against Ozpin's wishes) by bringing up that his sister probably knew the risks of being a hunter, and still chose to help people.

    Bitch no. Look at OUR MAIN CAST. No body knows that. No body in this world thinks that! This is arguably a good plot point, why are THE HEROES SAYING IT, NOT THE VILLAINS. Aaand then Ozpin forces Oscar to let him take control, because again...while giving people bird powers is not inherently evil or sketchy, EVERYTHING ELSE OZPIN HAS EVER DONE IS.

    Back with the dying heiress, Ren isn't sure what to do. I know they put bombs around the place but this is a fighting school. Go find the nurses room AND FIND SOME ****ING BANDAGES. Do SOMETHING REN! Don't just sit their holding her hand while she dies! I mean, maybe he's using his aura power to keep her emotions calm so she doesn't freak out from dying, I don't know. Point is, HELP!

    And then, finally, the expected happens. Jaune awakens his aura power and it's healing. We then cut away mid "awakening gasp" for reasons I don't quite understand. We're off with Cinder, Salem, and Vernal now, on the elevator down to the vault. Cinder is making small talk, but because she's ridiculous it's super evil sounding. She's just asking if Vernal is excited to be opening up the vault. There's no reason for her to be sinister about it! I mean she's PROBABLY going to kill Vernal in a backstabbing, because why not, but still. She doesn't have to say it evilly.

    The elevator descends, and they're at the vault. It's a regular old gate that doesn't even cover the whole area. You could probably jump it, especially in this series. My guess is that magic is involved of some sort to stop you from getting through it, to get at the tree inside (or the tree is the vault) but otherwise this doesn't look very impressive a vault. No wonder Leo defected. Cinder says it's far grander than Beacon's.

    Which means they know where the Vault for Beacon is. Which means they should have the Relic for Fall. Except the Relic is inside Ozpin's cane because that's super obvious, especially now. Also, speaking of budget concerns on Ozpin's part, if this vault is more impressive than Beacon's, and yet Beacon's is better hidden or shielded or whatever, why is this one so easy to get into if the villains haven't gotten into Beacon's yet? Besides, wasn't the problem that they couldn't FIND the vault?

    Meanwhile, Ozpin continues to fight Hazel as Qrowe fights Leo. Which should end in about five seconds, considering. Ozpin does some fancy moves (but it also sounds more like Oscar than Ozcar, if you catch my drift) and it's...not really impressive or interesting to watch.

    Back with Weiss, she's coming back to life. For some reason it's taken this long for Jaune to ask what is happening. No one knows, and that's weird to me. Also Ruby's up and she see's Yang fighting Emerald and Mercury. So...time to intervene? Except no, she's conflicted between sister saving, or Ozpin saving. Also Qrowe somehow hasn't beaten Leo yet despite EVERYTHING we know about BOTH of these characters. Ruby tells Jaune not to stop...whatever it is he's doing, and Ren offers to help Ozpin (since Qrowe just got punched into space by Hazel). Ruby will go help Yang. Also Nora will provide cover for Jaune so no one thinks to attack the medic doing medic stuff...which doesn't seem like a thing any of them will do, and Nora is hyper destructive whereas Ren is precise and has rapid fire weapons. Just saying, Ren would provide better covering fire.

    Ruby helps out Yang, and delivers...a line that would work if literally anyone else had said it. Yang asks if she's okay, and Ruby says "no. I'm angry" in her tiny little squeak voice.

    Back at the Vault, we approach the mystical glowing fall themed door, inside the tree with orange leaves falling from it, and prepare to open...the spring door. Why is this not the Fall Maiden door? Everything about it looks more "Fall" to me than Spring. It's such a weird design choice they've made. Anyway, to open the vault all she needs to do is touch it. Then Cinder will go inside and get the Relic. Raven of course prepares to backstab Cinder, but she starts talking and as we know talking is a free action. Cinder taunts Cinder, then hits Raven with a freeze attack that she's never been shown to be able to do before and then impales Vernal with her insect hand, spewing out darkness from what is likely to be a horrible torn off stump limb. Oh and we actually get to look at it, and it is! Cool! Sweet!

    Only, surprise twist! Vernal dies, but there's no power inside. Raven breaks out of the ice and reveals she's the spring maiden!...with dark red eyes instead of orange eyes like the fall maiden fire eyeballs, which means that again, why did they have this orange stuff be the spring maiden stuff? Anyway, the episode ends!


    And that's done. Thoughts?;
    Spoiler: V5C12
    Show
    Overlal the episode was basically just standard modern quality. It's alright, for the most part. With a somewhat lackluster reveal on Hazel and fight scenes that don't interest me and carry almost no weight. Jaune awakens his aura power and heals Weiss, or at least begins to. All in all, a regular RWBY. Except for the twist, which is actually interesting and worth discussing.

    Spoiler: Spring marches in like a Raven
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    So, the big reveal is that Raven is the Spring Maiden. This can lead to two likely places, but lets talk about the twist itself first. First of all, while I don't recall if Raven was actively aware of what was happening and hiding in the background to do anything, there have been instances where Vernal showed off the powers the Maiden is supposed to have when no one was around but her to do so. Now, given we've at no point been told what, exactly, a Maiden is supposed to be able to do, this is...fine, I guess. But what bothers me is the conversation Raven and Vernal had after meeting with Cinder and friends where they talk about it, and there's some clear hinting that Vernal is going to betray Raven to Salem to protect the tribe by giving herself up to Salem. Except they both know Raven is the maiden so not one single second of this conversation makes actual sense, given this new information. It's presenting vague dialogue with the express purpose of intending to trick US, the audience. It's like, from a random example I just heard recently, how Lost showed two off island scenes together to imply they both happened post island, but one was actually pre island and one was post island, and it's this huge bull**** bit of trickery that isn't actually intended to be figured out. The only hint we've ever gotten is Vernal being one to talk with regards to "oh, Cinder Fall? Nice name for the Fall Maiden" and all that, given she herself is called Vernal. So yeah no this twist is...overall kind of stupid, and feels entirely useless except for one thing, which I'll get into later.

    So, lets look at "what Raven being the Spring Maiden" actually means. There are two real solutions to this. One, Raven is the original Spring Maiden we all heard ran away from Mistral. This is, obviously, tenuous at best. If this was the case, then Raven would of had to run away at a pretty young age, so she could end up at the bandit camp with Qrowe to grow up doing crimes and eventually end up at Beacon. Not impossible given the way everyone treats the Maidens, training her from battle from basically as soon as she can walk would fit in with this. But otherwise this falls apart, because then someone could of told Salem "hey it's Raven" and then Salem would of told Cinder "Hey it's Raven" and then Raven would be dead and Vernal alive instead. So overall not a workable theory.

    The second most reasonable theory is that the weak, scared girl who ran away from Mistral ran into Raven, asked for help, and was immediately killed by Raven without any second thought, giving her the Spring Maiden power. Now, the ONLY REASON I can think of for why Raven WOULD EVEN HAVE THE POWER IN THE FIRST PLACE is if they intend for her to heel face turn to the good guy side after all this, or if she dies and gives the power to someone on team good guy (likely Yang, since she still loves her). So if this is the case, the idea that Raven becomes a good guy...because she just out of hand murdered someone in the coldest blood possible, and the consequences have lead her to becoming a good guy, are astoundingly ridiculous and poorly written, even for RT. And yet, this is the most likely option. Raven murdered a random girl asking for help for no real reason at all, got cursed with Maiden powers, and because of her attempts at keeping this hidden ended up getting her second in command killed, which'll lead to her joining team good guy. Or dying.

    The only other possibility is that the Spring Maiden was allowed to join her bandit tribe, and THEN died as a friend of Raven's, GIFTING her the power. This would make more sense and make "Raven is a good guy now!" far more tolerable. But otherwise this is...basically a "no positive outcome" situation, and is a twist that is almost entirely without merit. What I EXPECTED might happen, about the time Cinder lashed out with her hand, was that Vernal was the maiden and was then killed, so that the power WOULD THEN GO TO Raven, since Vernal is so loyal she'd focus on Raven instead of Cinder, her killer. I feel like that'd be a more interesting twist here. Cinder stabs Vernal to disable her like Amber, does her sucky suck to get the power out, but the power is already gone. Raven has it now.


    So yeah. That's my thoughts on the episode.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: 'Thought about Twist in V5C12"
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    If Raven's abillity to be aRaven is a mistical boost from Oz...
    And so is the power of a maiden...

    Will the next spring Maiden also get that power?
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: V5C12
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    My money is that Raven killed the Maiden. It just seems like the "practical" thing to do, you know? You don't bring in a powerhouse like that into a community where power is authority. That's simply inviting a rival into your midst. Adding it to her power, on the other hand, only increases your authority.

    I don't think she'll join the good guys. Maybe she'll help them for the fight, since her survival now hinges on Cinder's defeat, but if she survives she'd still flip them off once it's over and walk into the sunset. Most likely, however, she's going to die. Maybe she'll die in a way to empower Yang, as the girl needs a break, but it seems more likely that Cinder will get her power after all. If so, I expect it to be devastating to Yang, who never really believed her mother could die.

    But allied with Ozpin? No. Not anytime soon, assuming she even survives. You don't just drop that kind of baggage that quickly. She genuinely believes Salem cannot be defeated, and she's presumably amassed a good deal of evidence for the opinion. Possibly including the fact that Ozpin has been trying and failing to defeat her for ages without any lasting success. Working with Ozpin, even given a few temporary victories, is ultimately suicide. Every time. Every single frickin' time. And a survivor like Raven doesn't do suicide. That's not going to change if Salem's pawn gets driven off. If Cinder dies, however? Maybe that would be enough, but that would be a serious twist.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    My money is that Raven killed the Maiden. It just seems like the "practical" thing to do, you know? You don't bring in a powerhouse like that into a community where power is authority. That's simply inviting a rival into your midst. Adding it to her power, on the other hand, only increases your authority.

    I don't think she'll join the good guys. Maybe she'll help them for the fight, since her survival now hinges on Cinder's defeat, but if she survives she'd still flip them off once it's over and walk into the sunset. Most likely, however, she's going to die. Maybe she'll die in a way to empower Yang, as the girl needs a break, but it seems more likely that Cinder will get her power after all. If so, I expect it to be devastating to Yang, who never really believed her mother could die.

    But allied with Ozpin? No. Not anytime soon, assuming she even survives. You don't just drop that kind of baggage that quickly. She genuinely believes Salem cannot be defeated, and she's presumably amassed a good deal of evidence for the opinion. Possibly including the fact that Ozpin has been trying and failing to defeat her for ages without any lasting success. Working with Ozpin, even given a few temporary victories, is ultimately suicide. Every time. Every single frickin' time. And a survivor like Raven doesn't do suicide. That's not going to change if Salem's pawn gets driven off. If Cinder dies, however? Maybe that would be enough, but that would be a serious twist.
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    Given that the maiden was also untrained and weak it's entirely likely she'd be easy to mold, especially if Raven treated her with some manner of respect compared to what the others treated her. It's why people even thought Vernal was the maiden in the first place.

    I should clarify that by I do JUST mean a heel face turn. Not joining the good guys directly, but Not Joining the bad guys either. An anti hero who they can call for aid later, not an evil person who they can't trust even if she's against Salem. I think our heroes will win ENOUGH here that she'll accept it. Also given Jaune has healing powers, and assuming Vernal is only mostly dead, he can heal her.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    Given that the maiden was also untrained and weak it's entirely likely she'd be easy to mold, especially if Raven treated her with some manner of respect compared to what the others treated her. It's why people even thought Vernal was the maiden in the first place.

    I should clarify that by I do JUST mean a heel face turn. Not joining the good guys directly, but Not Joining the bad guys either. An anti hero who they can call for aid later, not an evil person who they can't trust even if she's against Salem. I think our heroes will win ENOUGH here that she'll accept it. Also given Jaune has healing powers, and assuming Vernal is only mostly dead, he can heal her.
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    You're not wrong. Raising the Maiden would have possibly lead to a loyal subordinate, and strikes me as the better choice. My argument is more that she wouldn't make the optimal choice with her mentality. Raven doesn't strike me as the nurturing type unless she has undeniable superiority over those around her. Even with her daughter, her every word was carefully chosen to set her up into a dominant position in the relationship, dictating the terms and then forcing Yang to decide. I admit I never saw the twist coming, but I did find it odd that she trusted Vernal so completely in spite of her words and actions.

    That said, I don't see her changing sides if Cinder survives this encounter. Ozpin must have had some level of success in the past, but it had to be too fleeting to count. This win has to be substantial and it has to be absolute before Raven would ever consider she could be wrong.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: Speculation, not episode specific but maybe minors spoilers for C12
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    Maiden's and Grimm are both super vulnerable to Ruby's Super Saiyan Silver Eye powers.

    If Cinder becomes a Double Maiden, wouldn't that make her even more vulnerable?
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    You're not wrong. Raising the Maiden would have possibly lead to a loyal subordinate, and strikes me as the better choice. My argument is more that she wouldn't make the optimal choice with her mentality. Raven doesn't strike me as the nurturing type unless she has undeniable superiority over those around her. Even with her daughter, her every word was carefully chosen to set her up into a dominant position in the relationship, dictating the terms and then forcing Yang to decide. I admit I never saw the twist coming, but I did find it odd that she trusted Vernal so completely in spite of her words and actions.

    That said, I don't see her changing sides if Cinder survives this encounter. Ozpin must have had some level of success in the past, but it had to be too fleeting to count. This win has to be substantial and it has to be absolute before Raven would ever consider she could be wrong.
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    Raven isn't nurturing, but I don't believe she'd kill a rando out of boredom. Especially given her group is a tribe of people who probably ended up together due to being outcast or running away from responsibilities, like she did herself. It feels out of character for her to be too nice, but also out of character for her to be too evil too. And remember, like Leo said, she's lying to herself. She still loves Yang. She still loves Bigyang. Otherwise her Semblance wouldn't work. She's not as tough as she thinks she is. She'll help our heroes out, if only because any sort of revenge for Vernal will be what she wants, and Ozpin's little group will let her get that.

    I didn't see the twist coming either, but when a twist is made TOO hidden that's not all that surprising. I'm good at seeing this stuff but I'm not clairvoyant.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    First of all, while I don't recall if Raven was actively aware of what was happening and hiding in the background to do anything, there have been instances where Vernal showed off the powers the Maiden is supposed to have when no one was around but her to do so.
    Spoiler: V05E12
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    When?


    Spoiler: V5C12
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    But what bothers me is the conversation Raven and Vernal had after meeting with Cinder and friends where they talk about it, and there's some clear hinting that Vernal is going to betray Raven to Salem to protect the tribe by giving herself up to Salem. Except they both know Raven is the maiden so not one single second of this conversation makes actual sense, given this new information. It's presenting vague dialogue with the express purpose of intending to trick US, the audience. It's like, from a random example I just heard recently, how Lost showed two off island scenes together to imply they both happened post island, but one was actually pre island and one was post island, and it's this huge bull**** bit of trickery that isn't actually intended to be figured out.
    Spoiler: V05E12
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    What specifically about that conversation strongly hints at a betrayal? I didn't get that vibe from it at all. Raven and Vernal just discuss their future strategy; And steel themselves for the difficult trials ahead. To me at least, the exchange still made sense when I rewatched it post-reveal. Are you sure you weren't just fixated on one particular theory? We all do that sometimes. Our certainty that we've seen the twist coming makes us misinterpret ambiguous information.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Anyr View Post
    Spoiler: V05E12
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    When?


    Spoiler: V05E12
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    What specifically about that conversation strongly hints at a betrayal? I didn't get that vibe from it at all. Raven and Vernal just discuss their future strategy; And steel themselves for the difficult trials ahead. To me at least, the exchange still made sense when I rewatched it post-reveal. Are you sure you weren't just fixated on one particular theory? We all do that sometimes. Our certainty that we've seen the twist coming makes us misinterpret ambiguous information.
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    I don't remember everything, but I know when the Spring Maiden zapped lightning around to intimidate people, I don't recall if Raven was around for that or not.

    I'd have to listen to the conversation again to be sure, but I wrote most of what I felt about that scene back when I did watch it. Basically, the emphasis put on "doing what's best for the tribe" by both Raven and Vernal makes no sense when you consider Raven is the Spring Maiden.


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