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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I forgot about the prediction. That is one other thing Raven says that clearly fits with a Salem victory narrative. And I agree that a conflicted Salem victory narrative is what the writers are canonically trying to do with Raven.
    Did we just mutually build up to an agreement that was the product of a thoughtful discussion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    However, that means a stalemate narrative doesn't fit everything Raven has said, not that it doesn't fit anything she has said. As the stalemate narrative is explicitly a rewrite to begin with, to give Raven a basis for a convincing/coherent/wrong case to make to Yang that is similar but not identical to the incoherent case she actually makes, I'm okay with that.
    I agree it is a more convincing, coherent, and definitely wrong case for Raven to make to Yang. However, I don't believe it is right for the series as a whole given what they are planning or what they have done.

    Basically, throwing out the stalemate suggestion waters down the threat Salem poses by destroying Beacon and going after the artifacts (already been happening for two seasons) as well as means that Raven has got to be willfully ignorant that Salem is after her maiden and the artifact at Haven Academy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    The things that actually matter to Raven are her impression of the war between Salem and Ozpin and her reasons for abandoning that war (or at least Ozpin's side in it). Her goal is to persuade Yang of 'the truth' that she thought Yang deserved to know--but she spends almost no time talking about it. In all the conversation, Raven has only three sentences that pertain to her goal in the scene: the line about Salem, the line about Ozpin's impossible war, and the line about meeting the fate of many others. That content should be the main focus of Raven's speech; instead, it's tossed off and forgotten. Raven spends more time talking about the different kinds of people who enroll at Beacon, for Pete's sake. That's not a product of her conflicted worldview. It's a completely unforced writing error.
    If you think making me watch this scene again and again is going to torture me into admitting how bad it is, you underestimate my sheer love for watching all things RWBY. Finally, noticed Raven has a mountain print on her dress behind the branches this time around. Very nice traditional Japanese art.

    Anyway, Raven's description of the types of hunters and huntresses as well as her entire time of Beacon is actuall less than the time she spends talking about Ozpin and Salem. She speaks about Beacon from about 7:25 to 8:42. Then she pivots to talking about Ozpin starting with "How much do you know about Professor Ozpin."

    Raven says a lot of things to set up who Ozpin is: "That's how he planned it, the man you know as Ozpin designed those schools and followers all over Remnant that are loyal to him...because old man Oz has a great and terrible secret." "I wanted to know more but with every new discovery I made the more horrifying the world became." This is all rather important given that she is both setting up who Ozpin really is while introducing the girls to Ozpin's secrets.

    At 9:40 she pivots to speaking about Salem. "The creatures of grimm have a master named Salem..." This only lasts till 9:55 when a back and forth with Yang escalates. The contours of the discussion indicate Raven may have said more if she wasn't interrupted by Yang's disbelieving comments and defense of her family members Raven made derisive remarks about in response.

    The conversation picks back up at 11:11 "I know the grimm have a leader, I know people who can come back from the dead, I know that magic is real and can prove it." Those revelations last to 11:37 when she ends with "I doubt he [Taiyang] told you what Oz did to your brother and me."

    The way she speaks about being a bird, you would think that could have been a curse.

    Overall the majority of the conversation, was...back and forth verbal sparring between Yang, Weiss and Raven, and a minor physical confrontation, but the clear second is information about Ozpin and Salem. True to her desire to discredit Ozpin, she spends more time speaking about him and speaks of Salem only in general terms. Raven tells us that Salem is the master and leader of the grimm (which I do believe was never officially confirmed until then, although it was clear Salem had a lot of control) and that Ozpin is headmaster of Beacon because he has a network of followers that ensure he gets put in that position time and again.

    There are clearly far more efficient ways of conveying plot information, but RWBY writers clearly like giving it in drips and drabs. Every vehicle that has been used for relaying information has prioritized the storytelling medium of delivery, or the myth-like nature of the information, or the interactions between the characters having the discussion.

    In this case, the most important thing the writers seem to want to get through is that Raven really dislikes Ozpin and thinks Qrow and Taiyang are foolish for following him. They could have cut out the sniping to get at a dry sensible explanation for why Raven really dislikes Ozpin, but apparently they wanted to get those emotions across more than anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Did we just mutually build up to an agreement that was the product of a thoughtful discussion?
    Before we get too excited, it's clear from the very statement I chose to modify as my jumping-off point (about unstoppable Salem) that Raven canonically takes the Salem victory narrative in some form. So to the extent that the canonicity of different narratives entered into the discussion in the first place, it's largely a product of getting sidetracked. Realizing the diversion and getting back on topic is still a win, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I agree it is a more convincing, coherent, and definitely wrong case for Raven to make to Yang. However, I don't believe it is right for the series as a whole given what they are planning or what they have done.

    Basically, throwing out the stalemate suggestion waters down the threat Salem poses by destroying Beacon and going after the artifacts (already been happening for two seasons) as well as means that Raven has got to be willfully ignorant that Salem is after her maiden and the artifact at Haven Academy.
    Raven wouldn't have to be willfully ignorant of Salem's intentions. She would probably have to have some combination of underestimating Salem's capabilities or overestimating Ozpin's, which is a fair problem to point out, but not insurmountable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Anyway, Raven's description of the types of hunters and huntresses as well as her entire time of Beacon is actuall less than the time she spends talking about Ozpin and Salem.
    [...]
    Overall the majority of the conversation, was...back and forth verbal sparring between Yang, Weiss and Raven, and a minor physical confrontation, but the clear second is information about Ozpin and Salem. True to her desire to discredit Ozpin, she spends more time speaking about him and speaks of Salem only in general terms. Raven tells us that Salem is the master and leader of the grimm (which I do believe was never officially confirmed until then, although it was clear Salem had a lot of control) and that Ozpin is headmaster of Beacon because he has a network of followers that ensure he gets put in that position time and again.
    Whatever fraction of the conversation you want to compare the lead-in to, that minute of storytelling doesn't get any less pointless. We spent three full seasons with the kinds of people who sign up for Beacon and other such academies; we don't need Raven to tell us what that's like. And it isn't what Raven really wants to talk about, either. It's only there because it's on her character sheet.

    That aside, 'talking about Ozpin and Salem' is not the salient point. Raven can spend a thousand words talking about getting bird powers and hardly ten will be relevant to her view of the war. Which is not to say that she shouldn't spend any time talking about anything not related to that view, but it should at least be a central element. This is the critical point of conflict between Raven and Ozpin's faction that led her to leave; it's what she cares about, and it's what she thinks could convince Yang to stay. But as soon as Raven finally, finally gets to it with the line about Salem, she drops it like it's on fire and never comes back, except for a couple of quips at the very end--and without an actual discussion to support them, those quips don't carry much weight with either Yang or the audience.

    The issue is partly that Weiss and Yang are so far out of the loop that just getting them up to speed takes a lot of talking. When Qrow was in a similar position with RNJR, they just skipped over that part, but that wouldn't have worked here, so it's not easy to handle. Still, from the viewers' perspective, nearly all of what Raven says is stuff we already know--indeed, stuff we learned specifically via Ozpin and Qrow talking at us. Having Raven say it all again just so she can be cynical while doing so is a waste of the viewers' time.

    This is speculative, but one possible way to solve that problem would have been to hold off on Oscar joining RNJR for a couple episodes. Have Qrow do the rounds looking for his friends first, while Weiss and Yang head towards Raven. Have Qrow fail to find anyone, slink off to a bar, and then encounter Oscar. Then Ozpin and Raven would have parallel exposition scenes where they talk about Oz's reincarnation and the war against Salem (not everything about the war, but enough to get their respective viewpoints across). It would be a challenge, especially with the familial conflict between Yang and Raven as a secondary dynamic interrupting the parallel. I don't know if it could be made to work. If it worked, though, it would work really well.

    Regardless of that speculative option, though, with the episode structure as is, Raven's dialogue still could have been significantly improved by paying more attention to her goals and the promise made to the audience, and less to her character sheet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    The way she speaks about being a bird, you would think that could have been a curse.
    [...]
    In this case, the most important thing the writers seem to want to get through is that Raven really dislikes Ozpin and thinks Qrow and Taiyang are foolish for following him. They could have cut out the sniping to get at a dry sensible explanation for why Raven really dislikes Ozpin, but apparently they wanted to get those emotions across more than anything else.
    These emotional overtones can be added to any content. They're not a particular virtue of this choice of content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    There are clearly far more efficient ways of conveying plot information, but RWBY writers clearly like giving it in drips and drabs. Every vehicle that has been used for relaying information has prioritized the storytelling medium of delivery, or the myth-like nature of the information, or the interactions between the characters having the discussion.
    A solid fraction of the time, the priority is reading someone's character sheet and calling it storytelling.

    Just because I frequently complain of RWBY's storytelling inefficiencies doesn't mean that I'm focused on efficient communication to the exclusion of other storytelling priorities. In my opinion, at least, RWBY is inefficient in ways that are also detrimental to its other storytelling aspects.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Before we get too excited, it's clear from the very statement I chose to modify as my jumping-off point (about unstoppable Salem) that Raven canonically takes the Salem victory narrative in some form. So to the extent that the canonicity of different narratives entered into the discussion in the first place, it's largely a product of getting sidetracked. Realizing the diversion and getting back on topic is still a win, though.
    Ah ok, I was sure we were violating the forum’s charter or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Raven wouldn't have to be willfully ignorant of Salem's intentions. She would probably have to have some combination of underestimating Salem's capabilities or overestimating Ozpin's, which is a fair problem to point out, but not insurmountable.
    I’m just saying that either Raven’s assessment is off-base and makes her appear (even more) of an idiot or it spawns general confusion about Salem and Ozpin’s strategy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    We spent three full seasons with the kinds of people who sign up for Beacon and other such academies; we don't need Raven to tell us what that's like. And it isn't what Raven really wants to talk about, either.
    I actually think its interesting that Raven went to Beacon to learn how to kill huntsmen. The thrust of the conversation is that Yang and Weiss are adorably naive in a nasty world. Raven’s speech is meant to start informing them of what the world really is like.

    Raven has to disabuse Yang of the notion that noble intentions and heroic sacrifices are an essential part of a hunter’s life, and convince her that Beacon isn’t the place she thinks it is. She is trying to upend Yang’s worldview, and there is no way to do this more effectively then to undermine Yang’s views about her home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    That aside, 'talking about Ozpin and Salem' is not the salient point. Raven can spend a thousand words talking about getting bird powers and hardly ten will be relevant to her view of the war. Which is not to say that she shouldn't spend any time talking about anything not related to that view, but it should at least be a central element. This is the critical point of conflict between Raven and Ozpin's faction that led her to leave; it's what she cares about, and it's what she thinks could convince Yang to stay.
    The fact Raven sees Salem’s power as impossible to overcome is neither the only thing Raven cares about nor is it sufficient to getting Yang to stay.

    Raven’s worldview, a world that is dark and gritty and were personal and family survival is all that counts, is what she’s trying to get across.

    Salem’s power helps holds up this worldview, but it is far more important not to get across that Salem is so powerful, but that Ozpin and Beacon are not so noble as Yang thinks they are.

    Raven is not trying to instill despair in Yang so much as to make her distrust her allies.

    Its actually a common strategy in rhetoric, legal strategy, and politics. Only when someone’s views are undermined do they become open to receiving another. It is far more important to undermine Yang’s view of her friends and allies in getting Yang to stay.

    Yang comes in willing to put her faith in Qrow and Ozpin. We see from the next episode that Raven was able to put a dent in that faith. Were it not for Ruby, who Raven apparently does not care about or think of as being important, Yang might have very well stayed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post

    Regardless of that speculative option, though, with the episode structure as is, Raven's dialogue still could have been significantly improved by paying more attention to her goals and the promise made to the audience, and less to her character sheet.


    A solid fraction of the time, the priority is reading someone's character sheet and calling it storytelling.
    Reading off a character sheet is a heavy criticism to be used sparingly.

    It conjures images of someone reading information off a sheet in boring monotone. This simply does not apply to Raven’s aggressive back and forth between her, Weiss and Yang.

    People’s past history matter, their stories matter. Its perfectly legitimate to bring them up. Otherwise we could accuse Orthello of reading off his character sheet, or Ulysses.

    Finer literary works than RWBY have included much longer background expositions with a lot less connection to what’s going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Just because I frequently complain of RWBY's storytelling inefficiencies doesn't mean that I'm focused on efficient communication to the exclusion of other storytelling priorities. In my opinion, at least, RWBY is inefficient in ways that are also detrimental to its other storytelling aspects.
    Clearly, if you are accusing RWBY of simultaneously “reading off a character sheet” and not communicating any relevant information you are pinning it on both horns of the storytelling dilemma.

    But RWBY is not being dry or monotonous with its story telling. They are using a surfeit of techniques to make whatever is being said seem relevant, and weave information into a larger story. You can complain they are being sparse with the information, I’m pretty sure Miles and Kerry have admitted as much. You can complain they are talking around relevant information, but a complaint that anyone is “reading off a sheet” is a grave insult to be directed towards emotionless actors and animation that amounts to mouth flapping.

    It is ludicrous to direct that complaint at a heated and terse exchange where each character is being expressive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I’m just saying that either Raven’s assessment is off-base and makes her appear (even more) of an idiot or it spawns general confusion about Salem and Ozpin’s strategy.
    I disagree. But I have laid out the reasoning before and am unwilling to repeat it when it's no longer a relevant part of the conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I actually think its interesting that Raven went to Beacon to learn how to kill huntsmen. The thrust of the conversation is that Yang and Weiss are adorably naive in a nasty world. Raven’s speech is meant to start informing them of what the world really is like.

    Raven has to disabuse Yang of the notion that noble intentions and heroic sacrifices are an essential part of a hunter’s life, and convince her that Beacon isn’t the place she thinks it is. She is trying to upend Yang’s worldview, and there is no way to do this more effectively then to undermine Yang’s views about her home.
    Raven makes a terrible argument for the intentions you stated. Oh, not all Huntsmen-in-training are in it to protect humanity? Some people want money and fame? How Awful! Wait, no, I don't care. Oh, you and Qrow joined with bad intentions? Only one of you lived up to those intentions, and not the one you're telling me to mistrust. We're not like you, and we'll be going now, thanks. This entire argument is a complete own goal for Raven. It doesn't undermine Beacon, or Ozpin, or Qrow, only herself - and she knows that. It is not an argument she is motivated to make, and the only reason it's there is because the writers couldn't figure out how else to introduce her backstory. Hence 'read off the character sheet'--it needed to be said because it was on Raven's character sheet, not because it was in character for Raven to talk about it that way.

    Which is not to say that Raven/Qrow's intentions in joining couldn't be brought up in a more motivated way--as part of an argument to undermine Qrow, or to undermine Ozpin, for example--but they aren't. And there simply isn't much point in trying to undermine Beacon itself, or the people who sign up. If Raven wants to use Beacon to undermine Yang's worldview, she should argue that Beacon fell because Ozpin endangered everyone there by using them unknowingly as a shield for Amber and the Relic, as part of his impossible war against Salem. Use the fact that Yang cares about Beacon to undermine her worldview on other points. Indiscriminately attacking everything Yang cares about should not be persuasive--it should only make Yang defensive and unreceptive. I say 'should' because the writers get to decide whether Yang is persuaded or not based on what needs to happen next, independent of the actual persuasiveness of Raven's arguments.

    (Of course, we can't do the argument exactly like that, because Yang and Weiss haven't learned about the maidens or the relics, because they've been out of the loop for so long, and it would take too long to explain it to them on top of everything else. Raven would have to refer to the maiden/relic generally as 'something Salem wanted' or something along those lines. Again, it's hard to do this conversation properly when it relies on explaining so many things that have already been explained to the viewers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    The fact Raven sees Salem’s power as impossible to overcome is neither the only thing Raven cares about nor is it sufficient to getting Yang to stay.
    I never focused exclusively on that fact--Salem's power is not the only aspect of Raven's view of the war. Granted that Raven's view of the war is not literally the only thing Raven cares about, which is a reasonable interpretation of what I said if not exactly what I meant, but it's still the heart of her case. Why is Ozpin untrustworthy? Because of all the s*** he pulls fighting this impossible war. Why is Qrow untrustworthy? Because he betrayed his family (or what Raven considers his family) for this impossible war. Why is Beacon less than noble? Because Ozpin only created it to serve as a human shield for the MacGuffin in his impossible war. Why is it not noble to fight the Grimm and protect humanity? Because it's impossible to beat Salem, and trying just gets you caught up in Ozpin's machinations, and then you suffer and die for nothing.

    Note that none of this has anything to do with 'some Huntsmen enroll for the fame' or 'Ozpin has followers in every academy' or 'Ozpin gave me bird powers'. The latter two could at least become part of the case if it were ever actually made, but as it is, they're just free-floating bullet points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Raven’s worldview, a world that is dark and gritty and were personal and family survival is all that counts, is what she’s trying to get across.

    Salem’s power helps holds up this worldview, but it is far more important not to get across that Salem is so powerful, but that Ozpin and Beacon are not so noble as Yang thinks they are.

    Raven is not trying to instill despair in Yang so much as to make her distrust her allies.

    Its actually a common strategy in rhetoric, legal strategy, and politics. Only when someone’s views are undermined do they become open to receiving another. It is far more important to undermine Yang’s view of her friends and allies in getting Yang to stay.
    And Raven fails at all of these things. The worst she says about Beacon is that not everyone who signs up is perfectly noble. The worst she says about Qrow is that his intentions were at one time in the distant past as bad as hers. The worst she says about Ozpin is that he hasn't told the world about Salem. Raven acts like she's telling Yang harsh realities about her allies and the world, which is where you get all that aggressiveness and expressiveness and 'surfeit of storytelling technique' and so on that you love (and I don't wholly disagree)...and there's just the teeny tiny problem that Raven isn't actually doing that at all.

    The bird powers thing is the most visible example of this, where Raven makes a big deal of showing it off and talks about it like it's a curse, even though there's absolutely nothing to suggest that it is. But everything else she talks about is like that too--except when she brings up Salem. That and the two quips.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Yang comes in willing to put her faith in Qrow and Ozpin. We see from the next episode that Raven was able to put a dent in that faith. Were it not for Ruby, who Raven apparently does not care about or think of as being important, Yang might have very well stayed.
    I said this before, but that's the reaction that needs to be justified. It is not its own justification. Yang's faith was dented because the writers needed Yang's faith to be dented, not because Raven's arguments were sufficient to dent it. As an evaluation of what Raven says, it's worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    People’s past history matter, their stories matter. Its perfectly legitimate to bring them up.
    I never said otherwise. We're back to the misrepresentations now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Reading off a character sheet is a heavy criticism to be used sparingly.

    It conjures images of someone reading information off a sheet in boring monotone. This simply does not apply to Raven’s aggressive back and forth between her, Weiss and Yang.
    [...]
    Clearly, if you are accusing RWBY of simultaneously “reading off a character sheet” and not communicating any relevant information you are pinning it on both horns of the storytelling dilemma.

    But RWBY is not being dry or monotonous with its story telling. They are using a surfeit of techniques to make whatever is being said seem relevant, and weave information into a larger story. You can complain they are being sparse with the information, I’m pretty sure Miles and Kerry have admitted as much. You can complain they are talking around relevant information, but a complaint that anyone is “reading off a sheet” is a grave insult to be directed towards emotionless actors and animation that amounts to mouth flapping.

    It is ludicrous to direct that complaint at a heated and terse exchange where each character is being expressive.
    Ludicrous is conflating my comments with attacks on the VAs or animation crew. You know and I know that's completely unrelated to what we're talking about, don't waste your time clambering onto your high horse for that. But if you prefer a different epithet, for clarity and all, I'm happy to go with 'written as if it was copied off the character sheet, with no regard for what the character is motivated to talk about in this scene.' Bit of a mouthful, but if that's what you want to read, that's what I'll write. Or maybe I'll write something else, and just stop caring whether you misinterpret it.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2017-12-08 at 08:17 PM.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    God, just kiss and make up already you two!
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    My olive branch is:

    1) Leth has a good point regarding introducing something about Ozpin using Beacon students as human shields as making Raven's point clearer. It is a bit difficult to get that across in her speech but why not.

    Also, it casts real doubt on Ozpin's nobility and ups his creepiness factor, but maybe...that's good for the story.

    2) Raven's backstory exposition is relevant to the conversation and, though it doesn't put Raven in such a great light, and starts with a jab at Yang and Weiss, it does enough to set-up a tale that she knows things about Ozpin the girls don't, like his habit of picking star teams...and what he does with them.

    However, if you disagree, don't say it's "reading off a character sheet." Call it "backstory dumping" or something indicating the irrelevance of the information without carrying further implications of untrained amateurism and monotonous droning. The words "reading off" when near the word "sheet" imply the VA's cannot act and the writers are not using basic writing techniques.

    I don't mean to imply you mean to accuse RWBY of monotonous monologging, but I think the words 'reading off a sheet' are words that are highly insulting to an an actor and implies a lot of very bad things beyond just engaging disjointed dialogue. I hear it much as I would hear someone using a slur for a minority casually in conversation without appreciating its meaning.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2017-12-08 at 09:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    God, just kiss and make up already you two!

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    *shrug* I'll drop the character sheet phrase, and agree to disagree on the rest. New ep dropping soon anyway.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Tomorrow I will watch it, as well, so then we'll have more to discuss. Probably.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Tomorrow I will watch it, as well, so then we'll have more to discuss. Probably.
    You still haven't done the newest one! You're an episode behind Zodi!
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    You still haven't done the newest one! You're an episode behind Zodi!
    I believe that's the one Zodi means to do, since the only way I see her getting a RT subscription is as a tongue-in-cheek gift from a RWBY fan.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Yeah that's what I mean my bad aaagh. I hate winter bleeergh.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    It's RWBY day

    RWBY: Volume 5 Chapter 9: A Perfect Storm is now out on Rooster Teeth's site for paid RT subscribers.

    http://roosterteeth.com/episode/rwby-volume-5-9eqoius23

    Also...

    RWBY: Volume 5 Chapter 8: Alone Together is now out for free on Youtube

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Yeah that's what I mean my bad aaagh. I hate winter bleeergh.
    Ohhh, my bad then! I take it back.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Yeah that's what I mean my bad aaagh. I hate winter bleeergh.
    Winter will use dust and glyphs to summon you Hot Cocoa if you stop hating her. Hate Whitley instead!
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Winter will use dust and glyphs to summon you Hot Cocoa if you stop hating her. Hate Whitley instead!
    Winter is the Schnee I like the least least, so get me some coco damnit.

    Also right right the ACTUAL new episode came out today I forgot. I'll watch the new one and the one formerly known as new later I have some Slayers to watch with my friends.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Winter is the Schnee I like the least least, so get me some coco damnit.

    Also right right the ACTUAL new episode came out today I forgot. I'll watch the new one and the one formerly known as new later I have some Slayers to watch with my friends.
    Wait, seriously? What did Winter do to rank below Papa Schnee or Whitley? I gotta know this!

    As for new episode, in brief...

    Spoiler: Volume 5 New Chapter
    Show
    Things are happening, I am excite. Now also some intrigue on what is going to go down with the attack on Haven with the attack on Qrow, Raven's own plans, and Cinder going against what Salem wants.

    Prediction...Qrow will not survive the volume, the dude is basically training wheels for the main cast and doesn't serve a narrative purpose right now. Especially with Ozpin himself there to serve the roll of dumping exposition.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Wait, seriously? What did Winter do to rank below Papa Schnee or Whitley? I gotta know this!

    As for new episode, in brief...

    Spoiler: Volume 5 C 9
    Show
    Things are happening, I am excite. Now also some intrigue on what is going to go down with the attack on Haven with the attack on Qrow, Raven's own plans, and Cinder going against what Salem wants.

    Prediction...Qrow will not survive the volume, the dude is basically training wheels for the main cast and doesn't serve a narrative purpose right now. Especially with Ozpin himself there to serve the roll of dumping exposition.
    Read that again. I like Winter the LEAST least. I basically don't like any of them so I can't say I like Winter the MOST, but she's tolerable. Of course thinking on it I think Weiss is probably better, she's still just got some of that early season bitch to shake off.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Read that again. I like Winter the LEAST least. I basically don't like any of them so I can't say I like Winter the MOST, but she's tolerable. Of course thinking on it I think Weiss is probably better, she's still just got some of that early season bitch to shake off.
    Yeah, I think I parsed that wrong in my head. Still, I'll be sad if/when Weiss shakes off all her bitchiness, its part of what makes her fun to watch.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Yeah, I think I parsed that wrong in my head. Still, I'll be sad if/when Weiss shakes off all her bitchiness, its part of what makes her fun to watch.
    The fun thing is that character traits like "is kind of a bitch" can still be played off positively. She just needs to get rid of the negativity involved.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Okay, so why are some folks in the YouTube comments squawking about "forced LGBT" and claiming Ilia's entire character is retroactively based on her gayness for Blake? Did I even watch the same episode as them?

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Sword View Post
    Okay, so why are some folks in the YouTube comments squawking about "forced LGBT" and claiming Ilia's entire character is retroactively based on her gayness for Blake? Did I even watch the same episode as them?
    Because you deserve the fanbase you cultivate.

    Serious answer: RT is very bad at what they do and as such attract a vocal fanbase that are, lets say, not actually human beings. As such they're incapable of understanding what basic common decency is. Try to ignore them and move on.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Because you deserve the fanbase you cultivate.

    Serious answer: RT is very bad at what they do and as such attract a vocal fanbase that are, lets say, not actually human beings. As such they're incapable of understanding what basic common decency is. Try to ignore them and move on.
    What is up with your hate of RT? Did Burnie, Gus, Geoff, Mat or the other 'Founding Fathers' (as the RT community labelled them) steal your favourite teddybear or something?


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    v5c8 commentary is still spoiler material until some time tomorrow.

    Spoiler: v5c8
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Future Sword View Post
    Okay, so why are some folks in the YouTube comments squawking about "forced LGBT" and claiming Ilia's entire character is retroactively based on her gayness for Blake? Did I even watch the same episode as them?
    My guess is they're mad that the first confirmed LGBT character confirmed it specifically by using her unrequited sexual attraction as an excuse for betraying Blake to her psycho ex-boyfriend, who is also the very person Blake preferred over Ilia in the first place. It doesn't erase Ilia's other facets, but I can understand how people might think about it that way, especially if they've fallen into one of the several easy but simplistic interpretations of representation.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2017-12-10 at 03:38 AM.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The fun thing is that character traits like "is kind of a bitch" can still be played off positively. She just needs to get rid of the negativity involved.
    Very, very true and I think she's largely accomplished that. It helps that her bitchiness, which was there, always had a reason behind it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Sword View Post
    Okay, so why are some folks in the YouTube comments squawking about "forced LGBT" and claiming Ilia's entire character is retroactively based on her gayness for Blake? Did I even watch the same episode as them?
    You are and they are being a bit silly.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Sword View Post
    Okay, so why are some folks in the YouTube comments squawking about "forced LGBT" and claiming Ilia's entire character is retroactively based on her gayness for Blake? Did I even watch the same episode as them?
    YouTube, like any part of the free internet, is home to bands of semi-professional and attention seeking trolls that reflectively attack inclusion.

    I’m not sure who is squawking about Illia’s homosexuality or whether they have a actual case until I see the link, my reflex is this is spurious arguments by trolls attacking inclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Because you deserve the fanbase you cultivate.
    This attack at RT’s fanbase is off-base. RT themselves are a fairly inclusive bunch. I’ve mingled with fans at movie premiers and such, I have not seen evidence of this sort of behavior.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    v5c8 commentary is still spoiler material until some time tomorrow.
    I recall Rawhide ruled we can talk about things out of spoiler after the episode goes up on YouTube on Saturday a few weeks ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Spoiler: v5c8
    Show

    My guess is they're mad that the first confirmed LGBT character confirmed it specifically by using her unrequited sexual attraction as an excuse for betraying Blake to her psycho ex-boyfriend, who is also the very person Blake preferred over Ilia in the first place. It doesn't erase Ilia's other facets, but I can understand how people might think about it that way, especially if they've fallen into one of the several easy but simplistic interpretations of representation.
    Spoiler: V5e8
    Show
    This criticism doesn’t resonate with me. I can imagine someone expressing disappointment that someone so screwed up is the first LGBT character, but until I see someone doing it, this just feels to me like a stretch.

    They’ve really focused on making Illia a complex and human character, and her unrequited love for Blake is just a part of that. I don’t see show her own problems as reflecting badly on lesbians as a whole or playing to a stereotype.

    Typical cricisms I have heard surrounding including LGBTs, or apologies for not including LGBTs, is that: 1) it may be forced and not well-thought out for a particular character if the writers doesn’t understand how to include their orientation. 2) the representation may just amount to including a walking streotype. 3) tokenism.

    This criticism sounds like “if you are going to include a ____ you need to make sure its not in a bad light.”

    It might be one thing if they, say, depicted Salem or Cinder as sadistic lesbians and salaciously concentrated on that aspect (Kill la Kill arguably manages to pull this off, but only because of its cynical critical tendency). Illia has a lot of screwed up things going wrong with her, her feelings for Blake just kicked that up to a whole other level of screwed up in her own very unique way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Rawhide's conclusion was 1 week after first release or 24 hours after YT release, whichever is later, which is what's in the OP now.

    And yeah, that's why I said it was understandable as a product of easy but simplistic ideas about representation.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    This attack at RT’s fanbase is off-base. RT themselves are a fairly inclusive bunch. I’ve mingled with fans at movie premiers and such, I have not seen evidence of this sort of behavior.
    Fair. I've only just seen the kind of surface level of any of this anyway, the whole "we're drunk dumb boys who do comedy and stuff with no consequences ever woo lol" aesthetic of RT feels like in engenders that type of loser fanbase. But I'm sure the majority are actually good people. Given that unless I'm forgetting someone you're all cool.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    YouTube releases Saturday morning. 24 hours puts the spoiler-free period to Sunday morning.

    Spoiler: S5E9 Gathering Storm
    Show
    This episode is seriously telegraphing the course of the rest of the volume, and it appears they are going to end with the invasion of Haven.

    Raven cut a deal with Cinder after all, but she does it in a way that proves she really is on her own side of this and Vernal is very much her person. That is...really quite brilliant.

    She manages to drive off Watts, convinces Cinder to participate an unnecessary battle for the relic, and gets a shot at the relic herself. At the end, it looks like she is flying to Haven to warn Qrow of the deal she made (likely minus the plans on the relic), so Raven manages to play all sides of this, and carve out a place for herself.

    The other thing going on is that Blake appears to be wrapping up the fight at her family’s home. I think its pretty clear whose going to win the fight now. At first I thought Illia will escape so Blake can fight her later during the battle of Haven. Yang is more viscerally hurt by Adam and I think its more important Yang bests Adam.

    However, now I suppose the two can take him down together. Illia seems to me to be reaching the end of her character arc, it might be best to have Blake finish it next episode. I think Blake and Sun will be the ones to head over to Haven, while Blake’s parents will stay to handling Menagerie and the White Fang there after the coup attempt.

    Everything is aimed at the battle of Haven now, there is no way this is not going down at the end of the Volume.

    Raven is the one who set up the battle of Haven, and on terms favorable to her. I doubt this will turn out well though. Raven doesn’t have much use outside this volume and it may be convenient to kill both Raven and Qrow, but I’d prefer to see Raven survive and proven wrong about her plan to go it alone in thwarting Salem. You could say Raven is hoping to stalemate Salem with her plan, and even Raven’s own statements suggest that isn’t a very smart idea. Qrow can certainly survive but will be sent on a mission away from the main group after Haven.

    I think Cinder will get the knowledge relic, as this would ramp up the threat of the villains nicely. Alternatively, Cinder may achieve a mixed victory (say by killing Vernal and getting her power too), but unless she gets some sort of victory, CME has a major problem with convincing us of their threat in the future.

    I’d actually prefer Cinder gets Vernal powers and RWBY ends up with the knowledge relic. This way maybe we can get a deep mystical knowledge dump (fat chance).

    This is definitely a good episode. I think its the best in the volume so far. I’m only a little disappointed that the combat itself at Blake’s place could have been taken up a notch.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2017-12-10 at 11:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Fair. I've only just seen the kind of surface level of any of this anyway, the whole "we're drunk dumb boys who do comedy and stuff with no consequences ever woo lol" aesthetic of RT feels like in engenders that type of loser fanbase. But I'm sure the majority are actually good people. Given that unless I'm forgetting someone you're all cool.
    Yeah, going to say you might have gotten the wrong impression on at least the fanbase that they encourage. The whole reason we got the whole 'when will gay/lesbian/trans characters show up in RWBY? When it makes sense and fits what's going on' question and answer was because the fanbase (at least for RWBY) is pretty inclusive and wanted to see it in the show too.
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