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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I actually like that Blake got a lot of characterization here, as well as background information and backstory information. I just wish it was a better put together story. Honestly that's probably why I'm as upset as I am about it. RT keeps tripping over it's own feet on it's way to making an approachably good story.
    So I like several characters in zoo, and I like the idea of zoo, but right now I am thinking Zoo is just Kevin J Anderson's Star Wars the Jedi Academy Trilogy. I just want it to go away. There is really no way for this part of the story to be redeemed, it just needs to find its end, and for everyone to learn from this part of history (and hopefully not repeat something similar in the future.)

    (It could be worse, it could be Crystal Star, Dark Saber, The New Rebellion, or The Courtship of Princess Leia)
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    So I like several characters in zoo, and I like the idea of zoo, but right now I am thinking Zoo is just Kevin J Anderson's Star Wars the Jedi Academy Trilogy. I just want it to go away. There is really no way for this part of the story to be redeemed, it just needs to find its end, and for everyone to learn from this part of history (and hopefully not repeat something similar in the future.)

    (It could be worse, it could be Crystal Star, Dark Saber, The New Rebellion, or The Courtship of Princess Leia)
    Party Split Ups that last more than a single season are typically very bad for this reason. Hopefully this is a lesson learned.


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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: people don't know how to write racism plots
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    The problem with Blake's speech is that in this massively, poorly written race war, she's on the Black person side of it. And she's effectively telling the people in zoo "no one seems ready to talk about black on black crime rates, so lets go show the white people we're good by helping stop the bad black people" which is just not the thing anyone in this position should be talking about at all. Why is it the Faunus' job to save the stupid humans from their idiot racist caused terrorist group? That is my problem with the entire speech, basically.

    My problem with the White Fang is that Sienna Khan is right. Sometimes you need to do a violence. Sometimes people do not listen. Sometimes you have to refuse to go to the back of the buss. Sometimes you have to hurt someone. Sienna is right. Adam takes it too far, Adam is a terrorist. Sienna is written poorly enough to make her a terrorist too, but on the crux of the issue she's right, and Illia is right. Sometimes there is no other option but to punch the nazi sympathizer in the face. And then you do that. The entire way they're writing this storyline is that "actually no it's okay we can just hug and stop the really bad ones and it's okay" and that's not how it works.

    It's a problem a lot of people have, not just RT. At the end of the day they are white people trying to write about what it feels like to be an actual oppressed group, and how said oppressed group should go about convincing the oppressors why they are worth being on the same level as them. And they always write stuff like this. This idea that we can solve everything by just being nice and polite about it, and helping clean up the messes caused by the oppressor's terrible ways. The White Fang exists because people like Weiss and her family use Faunus like shovels, discarding them when they're broken, and for some reason it's the Faunus' job to fix this problem? **** that. Derail a Schnee train. No one works on them they're all automated this does nothing negative. Sometimes you have to hit back because people are notorious for not listening to peace because "I have mine why should I care about you?"

    The problem is not that the Faunus don't want to fight the White Fang. The White Fang don't want to fight the White Fang for very clear obvious reasons. The problem are all the humans who don't seem to care that the reasons why the White Fang exist are still in play even though the world is "better now". I hate Velvet as a character and as a person, but if I was in the room I'd of stood up for her being bullied by Cardin. I stood up to my ****ing supervisor at work for telling my co workers to only speak english around me. Because that's not right. We need to fix our own problems, and it shouldn't be up to the oppressed to do it for us. That is why I don't like this entire plot line.


    Again, sorry for going a little harder on this episode. I was tired and didn't want to miss it and work was frustrating and stupid little microaggressions are getting to me right now.
    Don't apologize too much. You authentic emotional experience is something we sign on for (and then to critique it). Yes, I'll try to find some way to point out where I think your dislike is motivated by an inaccurate recollection of past volumes or missing stuff in viewing a character, but that's just what we do here (well occasionally, mostly we just talk up our own views and experiences past one another).

    Spoiler: RWBY race wars in Black and White (also that episode from season 1)
    Show
    I can see where you can say this perspective is "wrong" (I'd prefer more descriptive terms such as "classical privileged take"), and its hardly unique to RWBY.

    Sienna being "right" depends on both real world outlook about violence and the parameters of what constitutes violence. Instead of defining whether refusing to go to the back of the bus is a "violence," or sit-ins, protests that block traffic, etc let's just agree that Sienna rhetoric is highly controversial. I think this conversation steps over the line once we start debating whether or not Franz Fanon is right.

    Its not very clear where Sienna is on the violence scale, and I think she is talking about actual attacks such as the train bombing, but the fact that her views get short shrift suggests the RWBY writers sees Blake/Blake's Dads approach as the legitimate one. We know both of them were active fighting for Faunus rights but that fighting had precious little...actually fighting as part of it. That way didn't make enough "real progress," so Sienna happened then Adam. Now want to use actual violence to defend Haven from the White Fang. That example will supposedly build good will for the Faunus demonstrating that this is the sound approach.

    I think there is more to it than that though. Blake says she has no solution to how to make people stop treating Faunus poorly. She doesn't propose stopping the White Fang as a solution to the racism problem so much as that she sees the White Fang as a clear and present danger to the Faunus as well as the world (much as Sienna did).

    Adam's positions are clearly on the extreme end from anyones perspective. Purposefully so, Adam is actively working to help bring humanity to the brink of extinction. There isn't much to debate here.

    The real problem is when you look at what they are culturally appropriating here and if you view Blake's heroism as offering the approved solution to racism. From naming the episode that deals with racism "Black and White" its clear they are intending to deal with the topic and in a way that is relevant to the real world.

    Its not possible to approach this topic without controversy (imagine if they promoted Sienna's views as the right one), and RT hardly is being entirely serious a mature in its approach. We've got enough "Blake is really a cat" jokes sprinkled around to prove that. However, implicitly advocating that racial controversy can be resolved through a great deal of patience and non-violence instead of indiscriminate murderous acts of terrorism is hardly the worse problem you see on the topic. I don't think they are going to make the defense of Haven a magic wand to end racism.

    Putting it on Blake's community to help put an end to Adam isn't something I have a problem with. Adam is a real terrorist by anyone's definition. Terrorists typically shelter and spread their ideology in a sympathetic (or at least not actively hostile) community. Terrorists do purport to speak for a wider community as well, and it is especially helpful when that community turn inhospitable and works against them.

    In real life, I'm not sure how much credit that earns grass-root anti-terrorist efforts. They don't grab the headlines the same way the terrorists do.

    RT is certainly not a shining example of either grasping the real problems of racism. There treatment does seem like the sort of solution you see in a lot of pieces written by privileged white guys, but its also the sort of solution people have claimed to have learned from historical examples like India's Independence and the US Civil Rights movement. If its simplistic, at least it avoids being so simple they claim they can end racism, and there's no white savior coming.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2017-12-31 at 10:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Don't apologize too much. You authentic emotional experience is something we sign on for (and then to critique it). Yes, I'll try to find some way to point out where I think your dislike is motivated by an inaccurate recollection of past volumes or missing stuff in viewing a character, but that's just what we do here (well occasionally, mostly we just talk up our own views and experiences past one another).

    Spoiler: RWBY race wars in Black and White (also that episode from season 1)
    Show

    In real life, I'm not sure how much credit that earns grass-root anti-terrorist efforts. They don't grab the headlines the same way the terrorists do.

    RT is certainly not a shining example of either grasping the real problems of racism. There treatment does seem like the sort of solution you see in a lot of pieces written by privileged white guys, but its also the sort of solution people have claimed to have learned from historical examples like India's Independence and the US Civil Rights movement. If its simplistic, at least it avoids being so simple they claim they can end racism, and there's no white savior coming.
    Spoiler: Blake Dad vs Sienna
    Show
    I can tell you pretty plainly that they get none, and then the oppressors look at them are like "why didn't you do even more".

    That being said, you're right that this is complicated. I'm glad we could have this conversation and I'm glad it's gone over better than I expected. And there is that at least, what you said at the end there.

    I do think it'd be better if there was no Sienna. If Blake's dad used to believe in what Sienna does now, but mellowed out and realized there's a time for peace and a time for violence. It'd be better parallels to reality if that's what they wanted, but having it so that Blake's Dad was always the "lets just hug it out" type weakens it, in my eyes.


    I'd apologize for apologizing but that'd be a bit too stereotypical.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2017-12-31 at 10:52 PM.


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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11
    Show
    Come now. Its one thing to critique the fight scenes but its another to deny they exist. The fights go on for the greater part of this episode. This volume has had quite a few fights (Yang against the bandits, Weiss against the Lancers, Blake's story arc, and we get them in the Vol 5 previews). Overall each volume has had many episodes without fight scenes and many scenes leading up and after fights. They have actually been rather consistent this way.

    This battle featured quite a lot of action, and while some characters only got a few seconds of animation (at a time) Weiss v Vernal was pretty well sustained.

    We are missing the spastic quality of Monty's fight scenes, and what I see is here is slower, cleaner, with a lot more talking and pausing in the middle of the fights, but this is still definitely a fight scene.

    Compared to a lot of action anime, they are also doing a whole lot more fight animation of a higher degree of detail and realism to the movement.
    Spoiler: V5C11
    Show
    I didn't say the action scenes didn't exist... Only that they are underwhelming and pretty short. Even Weiss vs Vernal, which was the longest fight, wasn't very good and was just a bunch of disconnected 2~3 sec clips, which greatly reduce its impact and quality. They don't have to make a fluid, complex "choreography" when the scene only lasts long enough four 1 or 2 attacks. Rinse and repeat a couple times and... Boom! "Action scene"!. And the other fights... They aren't even worth mentioning, really. Did we even see Yang vs Mercury?

    This is a scene with a huge battle scene... We have more over 12 characters skilled and combat and ready to fight... And what do we get? A few clips that would've been short even if they were used in the intro montage. It's clear that the animators just aren't good at making fight scenes. And they don't seem to be in any hurry to improve.

    RWBY (and RT in general, I think) was waaaaaaaaay too dependent on Monty for action scenes. It had the advantage of having every fight scene to be fast-paced, fluid and very detailed (Fights between humans, anyway. Humans x monsters... Not so much. Turns out that few martial arts techniques apply against giant scorpions :P), but it left a huge skill gap in the animation department. Maybe it's because of that gap, maybe it's because they think it makes the show more "mature", or maybe it was always Monty's plan... But right now, RWBY isn't an action series. It's more of a (badly written) drama with a few action scenes sprinkled here there, of which 1 or 2, maybe 3 per season of them is any good.

    There are good things in the show (the characters, mostly) but the action, more often than not, is not one of them. After this volume, I'll just wait for a whole season to be out before watching it. That way I can fast-forward through the half of the season that could've been condensed into 2 episodes (*cough* Blake plot-line *cough* whole season 4 *cough*). That should make it much easier to turn off my brain long enough to swallow the... ahem... "plot".

    Sorry to be so negative. It pains me to be this harsh on the series. It really does. I've been watching this show from day one, and I really like its characters! When I noticed that the writing and music was... Uh... Not great, at least I knew I could still enjoy the characters and the action. But now it feels even those are starting to fall flat, especially the latter.

    PS: It was also pretty frustrating to see Weiss being kicked around like she's useless, even without Vernal using magic, but that's a separate issue.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11
    Show
    One on One Duels taking place simultaneously are the traditional RWBY fashion now? I must have missed something somewhere along the line...

    Also, I'm pretty sure this is the first time we see Leo's tail.
    Spoiler: V5 C11
    Show
    In a sense, yes. Even in fights where more than one person was there, RWBY always broke it down to one on one duels. The primary difference was that it did a better job of 'hiding' that by having fight partners swapping out with each other on occasion and having the end of one action scene lead directly into another action scene as part of the larger fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11 Fight!
    Show
    Also Leo's wrong, of course, Salem doesn't care about people and discards them when she's finished with them. Raven has mentioned that and she is apparently in a position to know this having spied on Salem from way back when. However, Leo is like the only fight that doesn't look like its going the villains way
    Spoiler: V5 C11
    Show
    Thing is, we don't know that, its just something that people are assuming because of how overtly evil she is and what Raven says. But we don't know how much Raven actually knows and what she's just assuming. Because what we've seen is a surprisingly level-headed mastermind and an easy way to lose the ability to manipulate people is if people know you discard them once you no longer have use of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11 Fight! Part 3
    Show
    I don't mind the return of classic Cinder, that's her face to the world. I suspect soon enough we will see angry and afraid Cinder again.
    Spoiler: V5 C11 Cinder
    Show
    I didn't say the return of classic Cinder was bad. I said that I'm glad they've improved their facial animations so much because Classic Cinder with her smug smirk frozen on her face wasn't...the best as a character. Not that she can actually emote while being smug, its a lot better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11 Fight! Part 4
    Show

    Weiss is also not awesome mainly because her strategy is to get the space to summon her Gigas. She should be attacking Vernal with her awesome speed. Instead, she uses her skills mainly playing defense.

    I don't know where the RWBY members rank on a scale honestly. If Season 3 choices was an indication of strength than yes, Weiss is second strongest in RWBY. However, the skills of the team vary greatly, and Weiss, as the "mage" definitely has her weak points. Hardiness, lacking Yangs ability to take a hit or Blakes clones, is probably one of them.

    I don't think you are giving Amber enough credit, the one fight scene we see she fights CME on her own and appears to win and limp away. Cinder pulls a victory out of nowhere.

    Vernal is fighting Weiss basically one on one and ultimately, she doesn't beat Weiss, Cinder comes along and finishes the job for her.
    Spoiler: V5 C11
    Show
    This is a bit old but it hasn't really changed, but the heavy hitters of RWBY have always been Yang and Weiss..and its unclear where they rank in comparison to another. Yang is great at ending a fight but that is all she can do. Weiss is also great at ending a fight but if she isn't capable of doing it on her own, she's more than capable of making someone else capable of doing it. Especially now that she's got her summoning down better.

    As for Weiss not doing great...again, there is a reason. Weiss always takes a bit of time to set herself up. Both with Glyphs and for dust attacks, the only great physical attack we've seen from Weiss was the white Dust blade from her trailer that we still haven't seen again. She prefers to fall back while someone is distracting the enemy to mess them up from afar and now has the ability to summon a meat shield to keep the enemy occupied while she does. Vernal does not give her that room to breath because Vernal is quite skilled at long-range and close-range combat.

    I think you might be giving Amber a little too much credit..we STILL aren't sure how CME ranks in terms of how threatening they are but Amber doesn't have that fight in the bag at any point. She manages to corner Emerald, sure, which is important but in the process loses track of every other combatant..which includes one (Cinder) that Amber has every reason to suspect is not down and out. Mercury you could argue Amber thought was out of the fight, even if he wasn't.

    And you're right...Cinder does finish Weiss off, after Vernal does all of the legwork without using her fancy maiden powers. You shouldn't sell Vernal short.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: people don't know how to write racism plots
    Show

    The problem with Blake's speech is that in this massively, poorly written race war, she's on the Black person side of it. And she's effectively telling the people in zoo "no one seems ready to talk about black on black crime rates, so lets go show the white people we're good by helping stop the bad black people" which is just not the thing anyone in this position should be talking about at all. Why is it the Faunus' job to save the stupid humans from their idiot racist caused terrorist group? That is my problem with the entire speech, basically.

    My problem with the White Fang is that Sienna Khan is right. Sometimes you need to do a violence. Sometimes people do not listen. Sometimes you have to refuse to go to the back of the buss. Sometimes you have to hurt someone. Sienna is right. Adam takes it too far, Adam is a terrorist. Sienna is written poorly enough to make her a terrorist too, but on the crux of the issue she's right, and Illia is right. Sometimes there is no other option but to punch the nazi sympathizer in the face. And then you do that. The entire way they're writing this storyline is that "actually no it's okay we can just hug and stop the really bad ones and it's okay" and that's not how it works.

    It's a problem a lot of people have, not just RT. At the end of the day they are white people trying to write about what it feels like to be an actual oppressed group, and how said oppressed group should go about convincing the oppressors why they are worth being on the same level as them. And they always write stuff like this. This idea that we can solve everything by just being nice and polite about it, and helping clean up the messes caused by the oppressor's terrible ways. The White Fang exists because people like Weiss and her family use Faunus like shovels, discarding them when they're broken, and for some reason it's the Faunus' job to fix this problem? **** that. Derail a Schnee train. No one works on them they're all automated this does nothing negative. Sometimes you have to hit back because people are notorious for not listening to peace because "I have mine why should I care about you?"

    The problem is not that the Faunus don't want to fight the White Fang. The White Fang don't want to fight the White Fang for very clear obvious reasons. The problem are all the humans who don't seem to care that the reasons why the White Fang exist are still in play even though the world is "better now". I hate Velvet as a character and as a person, but if I was in the room I'd of stood up for her being bullied by Cardin. I stood up to my ****ing supervisor at work for telling my co workers to only speak english around me. Because that's not right. We need to fix our own problems, and it shouldn't be up to the oppressed to do it for us. That is why I don't like this entire plot line.
    Spoiler: The Faunus Hate
    Show
    Sienna can be right but the fact of the matter is that Sienna was still running a violent terrorist organization that was perfectly alright with Adam's, a radical if there ever was one, actions until he did the equivilent of destroying one of four support pillars keeping everyone (including himself) alive. And just because Sienna is also a terrorist doesn't make her poorly written..she's not meant to be right..she's not meant to be wrong either, if anything Sienna exists on the scale of Ghira Belladonna to Adam Taurus as the option that people need to think about how they feel about her actions. Because the big example you give on derailing a Schnee train? That one is wrong. They aren't entirely automated and that was the straw that broke the camel's back and triggered Blake running away the first time...there were conductors on that train and Adam didn't care if they died from them blowing that train up. And this is suggested to be an attitude that the rest of the White Fang shared! Also, Weiss and the Schnee using Faunus like a shovel to be discarded? Think you mean Jacques.

    However, Sienna is right that the Faunus shouldn't just sit back and let people discriminate against them which is why Ghira said he respected her. Cause you are right..sometimes you don't go to the back of the bus but the answer isn't to punch the bus driver in the face. Well...depends on the bus driver but as a general idea. But doing that isn't the..wrong answer...but its not the right answer either, its just an answer that is in desperate need of context.

    Because the important thing in Blake's speech that you don't touch on is that Blake isn't saying 'we should really talk about Faunus-on-Faunus crime so the humans know we deserve to be on the same level as them'. Blake is saying 'we need to stop the White Fang because they are crazy extremists and everyone else needs to know they don't speak for us'...its not even about claiming to stop the Faunus racism and saving Haven will somehow do this. Its about making sure that people don't equate the White Fang, who just destroyed Beacon Academy and almost Vale as well, with the Faunus..so that someone like Weiss, who has personal grievances against the Faunus, don't blame the rest of the Faunus for what some idiots are doing. That's why Blake's speech works better than Ghira's honestly...Ghira comes off (and not in a good way) that he thinks helping defend Haven will be a decisive blow against Faunus discrimination while Blake's doesn't. Her speech is about cleaning up the White Fang mess because they are everyone's responsibility and its time for that mess to be over.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: Blake Dad vs Sienna
    Show
    I can tell you pretty plainly that they get none, and then the oppressors look at them are like "why didn't you do even more".

    That being said, you're right that this is complicated. I'm glad we could have this conversation and I'm glad it's gone over better than I expected. And there is that at least, what you said at the end there.

    I do think it'd be better if there was no Sienna. If Blake's dad used to believe in what Sienna does now, but mellowed out and realized there's a time for peace and a time for violence. It'd be better parallels to reality if that's what they wanted, but having it so that Blake's Dad was always the "lets just hug it out" type weakens it, in my eyes.
    Spoiler: Ghira
    Show
    I think it might work for the conflict as a whole...or could, but it would weaken it in other ways.

    Ghira stepping down really drives home that he's a non-violent kind of dude or rather believes that non-violent protest is the way to get what everyone wants..but the fact he stepped down also showed that he doesn't believe that violent methods can't work but they go against his own, personal, principles. So he stepped down, because he acknowledged that how Sienna wanted to lead wasn't strictly wrong (the all important context mentioned above) and a majority of the White Fang agreed with her. In his own way, Ghira did acknowledged there was a time for peace and a time for violence but he wasn't the one to lead the White Fang in the time of violence.

    Sienna was.

    In theory. Because we see that at least one branch of the White Fang, under Sienna's leadership, stopped being people fighting for equality and just became terrorists. And equality is what Sienna seemed to be after, she was just concerned about societal back-sliding and chose a controversial approach to keep that from happening.

    I have my own problems with the Menagerie story line because they do exist but I never got the feeling that RT or the Belladonnas are preaching just co-existing and all love and hugs is the right approach. Blake's description of the White Fang under Ghira doesn't sound like that...they held rallies and protests, they boycotted stores/restaurants/etc. that discriminated against the Faunus, etc. etc....They just tried not to hurt anybody in the process.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11
    Show
    I didn't say the action scenes didn't exist... Only that they are underwhelming and pretty short. Even Weiss vs Vernal, which was the longest fight, wasn't very good and was just a bunch of disconnected 2~3 sec clips, which greatly reduce its impact and quality. They don't have to make a fluid, complex "choreography" when the scene only lasts long enough four 1 or 2 attacks. Rinse and repeat a couple times and... Boom! "Action scene"!. And the other fights... They aren't even worth mentioning, really. Did we even see Yang vs Mercury?

    This is a scene with a huge battle scene... We have more over 12 characters skilled and combat and ready to fight... And what do we get? A few clips that would've been short even if they were used in the intro montage.

    After this volume, I'll just wait for a whole season to be out before watching it. That way I can fast-forward through the half of the season that could've been condensed into 2 episodes (*cough* Blake plot-line *cough* whole season 4 *cough*).
    Spoiler: V5C11 Fight! Extended Edition
    Show
    Its one thing to say you do not like the fight scene, or you think the episodes are drawn out, however these are gross exaggerations of what's going on.

    Even under Monty action was often accompanied by dramatic pauses and conversations. Notice that RWBY and JNPR spend a lot of time running and talking between clips of fighting in what is perhaps one of the longest and most dramatic fights of RWBY.

    Spoiler: Nevermore Deathstalker fight
    Show


    Now let's take this fight. From 7:42 until the end of the episode 8:20 later we get plenty of action.

    Juane charges for six seconds while Cinder takes out a sword and blocks. The force of the block shakes the chains on the statue.

    Ruby then launches herself and is taken down by Emerald's chains.

    What follows is a series of tense exchanges that with only 2-4 seconds of action animation (mostly brief attacks and blocks) not counting more blade locks, draws and actions poses, running motions and charges (including Weiss's launch using her glyphs). If this was the entirety of the fight your analysis has some support.

    But that only continues until Oscar attacks Leo at 10:32. Oscar continues his attack until 10:45 (13 seconds) before Leo breaks into a monologue about Ozpin's return and that this is his chance to get out of Salem's heel by delivering her Oscar.

    Ok still the spirit of your commentary has some merit. We get brief attacks of up to 13 seconds between dialogue.

    11:38, however, Weiss v Vernal is in full show. Weiss dodges, calls forth an ice wall, and tries to get a summon in. That goes until 12:07 (nearly 30 seconds) until we get more dialogue for Vernal quipping that she won't let Weiss "take the easy way out."

    After a cut to Juane getting tossed on his ass and Cinder commenting what she remembers about him "your the dense one who can't tell when he's out of his league." We get a Juane attack followed by a Ruby attack on Emerald from 12:21 through 12:36 (Ruby and Emerald talk between exchanging gun fire and blocks). Emerald calls forward an illusion that attacks at 12:40 and the action segues to Weiss v Vernal's fight until 13:02 when Weiss gets caught in the blade lock and has her aura shattered.

    The cry alerts Juane and Cinder who begin a dialogue leading to the two charging one another. That gets interrupted by Ruby at 13:33 breaking out her silver eyes causing Cinder to fall at 13:39. She kneels to the ground and huffs until we see Juane's blade coming in at slow motion at 13:47 to 13:52.

    We get some brief snippets of battle from 14:28 to 14:31. 14:38 shows Weiss falling only to see Cinder walk menacing across the battle field and strike.

    So in retrospect. Most of the action does take place in 2-6 second snippets, but there are several spots of 20-30 seconds of pure action. Meanwhile, the "non-action" segments have things going on during the dialogues and the combatants are moving, equipping, falling, blade locking, and other things to let you know they are still in combat and preparing their next move.

    This isn't the same level of action you see in the early episodes, but its not exactly DBZ levels of pauses between blows. It is definitely consistent with plenty of action scenes in anime (the closest analogue to RWBY), and reminds me of some dramatic fights in theater productions.

    Moreover there are reasons why it has to be that way. Animating things in RWBY the way they do things no is very intense and results in much higher quality images and backgrounds...but fighting is the most difficult to do, as it requires their six or so animation departments (and close to a dozen animators) to tightly co-ordinate.

    What they do is very well polished, it just misses the sheer amount of off-the-wall stuff Monty was doing because he would do these things all himself, put out an enormous workload, and do everything in a workflow process that could skip steps because there were so few actual people in the project.


    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5 C11
    Show
    In a sense, yes. Even in fights where more than one person was there, RWBY always broke it down to one on one duels. The primary difference was that it did a better job of 'hiding' that by having fight partners swapping out with each other on occasion and having the end of one action scene lead directly into another action scene as part of the larger fight.
    Spoiler: V5C11 and Season 1
    Show
    See above for the Nevermore/Deathstalker fight. Yes often time we just see one person being focused on, but other people are doing plenty of stuff too and its definitely not a "one on one" dual (nor is it in the Paladin fight).


    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5 C11 Salem
    Show
    Thing is, we don't know that, its just something that people are assuming because of how overtly evil she is and what Raven says. But we don't know how much Raven actually knows and what she's just assuming. Because what we've seen is a surprisingly level-headed mastermind and an easy way to lose the ability to manipulate people is if people know you discard them once you no longer have use of them.
    Spoiler: V5 C11 Salem
    Show
    Given the evil archetypes we've seen, I think it is fully consistent with Salem's behavior for her to throw people she made a deal with under the bus. The "level headed mastermind" angle means she knows how to make deals with people. That is not inconsistent in her breaking deals and killing people when she's done with them...so long as she doesn't let people know that's what she does.

    Moreover, in this sort of fiction, you often see villains breaking deals left and right, only to find someone else who is desperate enough they'll convince themselves the villain's word has meaning.

    Ultimately, Salem is still a cartoon evil sort of villain, who wants nothing more than to collapse civilization. Its not immediately clear what motive she has for why, but perhaps she wants to rule over the remnant, or she simply likes death and destruction.



    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5 C11
    Show
    I think you might be giving Amber a little too much credit..we STILL aren't sure how CME ranks in terms of how threatening they are but Amber doesn't have that fight in the bag at any point. She manages to corner Emerald, sure, which is important but in the process loses track of every other combatant..which includes one (Cinder) that Amber has every reason to suspect is not down and out. Mercury you could argue Amber thought was out of the fight, even if he wasn't.

    And you're right...Cinder does finish Weiss off, after Vernal does all of the legwork without using her fancy maiden powers. You shouldn't sell Vernal short.
    I'll have to move my discussion on how well Amber does for herself to another post to make room for video.

    Spoiler: S5C11 Amber v Vernal
    Show
    CME is also doing pretty well for themselves here in Season 5 against their opponents. We can't see what Amber is like vs. Vernal but your the one who said you think Vernal has shown herself to be much more powerful than Amber's pathetic fighting.

    Amber's fighting was always on a level beyond anyone else in the series (at least until Cinder got Amber's power).
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11
    Show
    I didn't say the action scenes didn't exist... Only that they are underwhelming and pretty short. Even Weiss vs Vernal, which was the longest fight, wasn't very good and was just a bunch of disconnected 2~3 sec clips, which greatly reduce its impact and quality. They don't have to make a fluid, complex "choreography" when the scene only lasts long enough four 1 or 2 attacks. Rinse and repeat a couple times and... Boom! "Action scene"!. And the other fights... They aren't even worth mentioning, really. Did we even see Yang vs Mercury?

    This is a scene with a huge battle scene... We have more over 12 characters skilled and combat and ready to fight... And what do we get? A few clips that would've been short even if they were used in the intro montage.

    After this volume, I'll just wait for a whole season to be out before watching it. That way I can fast-forward through the half of the season that could've been condensed into 2 episodes (*cough* Blake plot-line *cough* whole season 4 *cough*).
    Spoiler: V5C11 Fight! Extended Edition
    Show
    Its one thing to say you do not like the fight scene, or you think the episodes are drawn out, however these are gross exaggerations of what's going on.

    Even under Monty action was often accompanied by dramatic pauses and conversations. Notice that RWBY and JNPR spend a lot of time running and talking between clips of fighting in what is perhaps one of the longest and most dramatic fights of RWBY.

    Nevermore Deathstalker fight


    Now let's take this fight. From 7:42 until the end of the episode 8:20 later we get plenty of action.

    Juane charges for six seconds while Cinder takes out a sword and blocks. The force of the block shakes the chains on the statue.

    Ruby then launches herself and is taken down by Emerald's chains.

    What follows is a series of tense exchanges that with only 2-4 seconds of action animation (mostly brief attacks and blocks) not counting more blade locks, draws and actions poses, running motions and charges (including Weiss's launch using her glyphs). If this was the entirety of the fight your analysis has some support.

    But that only continues until Oscar attacks Leo at 10:32. Oscar continues his attack until 10:45 (13 seconds) before Leo breaks into a monologue about Ozpin's return and that this is his chance to get out of Salem's heel by delivering her Oscar.

    Ok still the spirit of your commentary has some merit. We get brief attacks of up to 13 seconds between dialogue.

    11:38, however, Weiss v Vernal is in full show. Weiss dodges, calls forth an ice wall, and tries to get a summon in. That goes until 12:07 (nearly 30 seconds) until we get more dialogue for Vernal quipping that she won't let Weiss "take the easy way out."

    After a cut to Juane getting tossed on his ass and Cinder commenting what she remembers about him "your the dense one who can't tell when he's out of his league." We get a Juane attack followed by a Ruby attack on Emerald from 12:21 through 12:36 (Ruby and Emerald talk between exchanging gun fire and blocks). Emerald calls forward an illusion that attacks at 12:40 and the action segues to Weiss v Vernal's fight until 13:02 when Weiss gets caught in the blade lock and has her aura shattered.

    The cry alerts Juane and Cinder who begin a dialogue leading to the two charging one another. That gets interrupted by Ruby at 13:33 breaking out her silver eyes causing Cinder to fall at 13:39. She kneels to the ground and huffs until we see Juane's blade coming in at slow motion at 13:47 to 13:52.

    We get some brief snippets of battle from 14:28 to 14:31. 14:38 shows Weiss falling only to see Cinder walk menacing across the battle field and strike.

    So in retrospect. Most of the action does take place in 2-6 second snippets, but there are several spots of 20-30 seconds of pure action. Meanwhile, the "non-action" segments have things going on during the dialogues and the combatants are moving, equipping, falling, blade locking, and other things to let you know they are still in combat and preparing their next move.

    This isn't the same level of action you see in the early episodes, but its not exactly DBZ levels of pauses between blows. It is definitely consistent with plenty of action scenes in anime (the closest analogue to RWBY), and reminds me of some dramatic fights in theater productions.

    Moreover there are reasons why it has to be that way. Animating things in RWBY the way they do things no is very intense and results in much higher quality images and backgrounds...but fighting is the most difficult to do, as it requires their six or so animation departments (and close to a dozen animators) to tightly co-ordinate.

    What they do is very well polished, it just misses the sheer amount of off-the-wall stuff Monty was doing because he would do these things all himself, put out an enormous workload, and do everything in a workflow process that could skip steps because there were so few actual people in the project.


    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5 C11
    Show
    In a sense, yes. Even in fights where more than one person was there, RWBY always broke it down to one on one duels. The primary difference was that it did a better job of 'hiding' that by having fight partners swapping out with each other on occasion and having the end of one action scene lead directly into another action scene as part of the larger fight.
    Spoiler: V5C11 and Season 1
    Show
    See above for the Nevermore/Deathstalker fight. Yes often time we just see one person being focused on, but other people are doing plenty of stuff too and its definitely not a "one on one" dual (nor is it in the Paladin fight).


    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5 C11 Salem
    Show
    Thing is, we don't know that, its just something that people are assuming because of how overtly evil she is and what Raven says. But we don't know how much Raven actually knows and what she's just assuming. Because what we've seen is a surprisingly level-headed mastermind and an easy way to lose the ability to manipulate people is if people know you discard them once you no longer have use of them.
    Spoiler: V5 C11 Salem
    Show
    Given the evil archetypes we've seen, I think it is fully consistent with Salem's behavior for her to throw people she made a deal with under the bus. The "level headed mastermind" angle means she knows how to make deals with people. That is not inconsistent in her breaking deals and killing people when she's done with them...so long as she doesn't let people know that's what she does.

    Moreover, in this sort of fiction, you often see villains breaking deals left and right, only to find someone else who is desperate enough they'll convince themselves the villain's word has meaning.

    Ultimately, Salem is still a cartoon evil sort of villain, who wants nothing more than to collapse civilization. Its not immediately clear what motive she has for why, but perhaps she wants to rule over the remnant, or she simply likes death and destruction.



    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5 C11
    Show
    I think you might be giving Amber a little too much credit..we STILL aren't sure how CME ranks in terms of how threatening they are but Amber doesn't have that fight in the bag at any point. She manages to corner Emerald, sure, which is important but in the process loses track of every other combatant..which includes one (Cinder) that Amber has every reason to suspect is not down and out. Mercury you could argue Amber thought was out of the fight, even if he wasn't.

    And you're right...Cinder does finish Weiss off, after Vernal does all of the legwork without using her fancy maiden powers. You shouldn't sell Vernal short.
    In S3E7 Amber holds her own while levitating, calling forth lighting, fire, ice-leaves, and other parts of the environment to take out CME. She takes a lot of punishment by just blocking it with her aura and then, Yes, she does seem to take out the whole group.

    When Qrow arrives CME chooses to disperse rather than chase after Amber, which suggests they are pretty depleted from the Amber fight.



    Yes, CME are each individually powerful characters. Cinder fought Glynda one on one in the beginning of the series using the same "turn to stuff to glass" technique she uses against Amber. Cinder wasn't relying on Ambers magic. With Amber's magic Cinder was able to beat both Ozpin and Pyrrha within a short time of each other.

    Mercury's loss implies he was holding back against Yang to let her win. Emerald and Mercury took out the two heavy hitters from team CFVY who were implied to be more powerful than RWBY at the end of Season 2.

    Spoiler: S5C11 Amber v Vernal
    Show
    CME is also doing pretty well for themselves here in Season 5 against their opponents. We can't see what Amber is like vs. Vernal but your the one who said you think Vernal has shown herself to be much more powerful than Amber's pathetic fighting.

    Amber's fighting was always on a level beyond anyone else in the series (at least until Cinder got Amber's power).
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-01 at 08:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11 Fight! Extended Edition
    Show
    Its one thing to say you do not like the fight scene, or you think the episodes are drawn out, however these are gross exaggerations of what's going on.

    Even under Monty action was often accompanied by dramatic pauses and conversations. Notice that RWBY and JNPR spend a lot of time running and talking between clips of fighting in what is perhaps one of the longest and most dramatic fights of RWBY.

    Nevermore Deathstalker fight


    Now let's take this fight. From 7:42 until the end of the episode 8:20 later we get plenty of action.

    Juane charges for six seconds while Cinder takes out a sword and blocks. The force of the block shakes the chains on the statue.

    Ruby then launches herself and is taken down by Emerald's chains.

    What follows is a series of tense exchanges that with only 2-4 seconds of action animation (mostly brief attacks and blocks) not counting more blade locks, draws and actions poses, running motions and charges (including Weiss's launch using her glyphs). If this was the entirety of the fight your analysis has some support.

    But that only continues until Oscar attacks Leo at 10:32. Oscar continues his attack until 10:45 (13 seconds) before Leo breaks into a monologue about Ozpin's return and that this is his chance to get out of Salem's heel by delivering her Oscar.

    Ok still the spirit of your commentary has some merit. We get brief attacks of up to 13 seconds between dialogue.

    11:38, however, Weiss v Vernal is in full show. Weiss dodges, calls forth an ice wall, and tries to get a summon in. That goes until 12:07 (nearly 30 seconds) until we get more dialogue for Vernal quipping that she won't let Weiss "take the easy way out."

    After a cut to Juane getting tossed on his ass and Cinder commenting what she remembers about him "your the dense one who can't tell when he's out of his league." We get a Juane attack followed by a Ruby attack on Emerald from 12:21 through 12:36 (Ruby and Emerald talk between exchanging gun fire and blocks). Emerald calls forward an illusion that attacks at 12:40 and the action segues to Weiss v Vernal's fight until 13:02 when Weiss gets caught in the blade lock and has her aura shattered.

    The cry alerts Juane and Cinder who begin a dialogue leading to the two charging one another. That gets interrupted by Ruby at 13:33 breaking out her silver eyes causing Cinder to fall at 13:39. She kneels to the ground and huffs until we see Juane's blade coming in at slow motion at 13:47 to 13:52.

    We get some brief snippets of battle from 14:28 to 14:31. 14:38 shows Weiss falling only to see Cinder walk menacing across the battle field and strike.

    So in retrospect. Most of the action does take place in 2-6 second snippets, but there are several spots of 20-30 seconds of pure action. Meanwhile, the "non-action" segments have things going on during the dialogues and the combatants are moving, equipping, falling, blade locking, and other things to let you know they are still in combat and preparing their next move.

    This isn't the same level of action you see in the early episodes, but its not exactly DBZ levels of pauses between blows. It is definitely consistent with plenty of action scenes in anime (the closest analogue to RWBY), and reminds me of some dramatic fights in theater productions.

    Moreover there are reasons why it has to be that way. Animating things in RWBY the way they do things no is very intense and results in much higher quality images and backgrounds...but fighting is the most difficult to do, as it requires their six or so animation departments (and close to a dozen animators) to tightly co-ordinate.

    What they do is very well polished, it just misses the sheer amount of off-the-wall stuff Monty was doing because he would do these things all himself, put out an enormous workload, and do everything in a workflow process that could skip steps because there were so few actual people in the project.
    Spoiler: V5E11
    Show
    Your description of the other battles make them sound bigger and more impressive than they actually were.

    Jaune vs Cinder is basically a dialogue, which is understandable, considering one the characters is a main villain and the other is the arguably least competent fighter in the series... Unfortunately "understandable" isn't the same as "entertaining", "exciting" or "well animated". The fight starts with Jaune running, Cinder making the lazies block ever and then the two of them pushing blades together... Then a few cuts of Cinder teasing Jaune... Jaunes makes the slowest overhead attack in history, which is easily blocked... A little more teasing... Slow-mo attack that doesn't even show Jaune moving (just falling) aaaaand... Skip to impalement.

    Boring, but I actually forgive this one. One of the characters is heavily out-classed and the stronger one is just toying with the other.

    The rest of the fights... Not so much...

    Qrow vs Emerald is the two of them pushing their blades together for a loooong time before a 1~2 seconds snip-it where they move off-screen.

    Oz vs Leo... Is just Oz walking menacingly, then "blocks" a projectile (by standing still) and proceeds to beat Leo... Who doesn't do anything other than block with a shield. There are no counters, parries, evasions or even particularly interesting blocks. He just raises his shield and Oz aims at the shield, like a bad live-action choreography, where you have to worry about actors not getting hurt. Well... I think there's ONE side-step at one point, and that's about it.

    Ruby vs Emerald is just Ruby spinning her weapon and magically blocking all of Emerald's bullets. Nether character even moves from their spot until Emerald uses her illusion to trip Ruby (who uses the most boring, unimaginative and idiotic block I've seen in a long time in the show). And of course, as soon as one of them moves, the scene cuts off to different characters.

    Yang vs Mercury... I don't know. Apparently they took a break and left the room... I'm sure there's a 1 second clip of they fighting somewhere in the episode, but I couldn't remember it if someone paid me. Same goes for Nora and Ren x Big Guy.

    Finally, we have Weiss vs Vernal. This is the only battle that is even close to acceptable, and even that one is lazy. Not just because it's basically a bunch of short clips, instead of an actual action sequence, but also because for most of it, the characters don't even engage each other. Either they are jumping around and shooting or Weiss stops to "cast" and is interrupted. To make things worse, Weiss is rather incompetent in the fight. At one point, she falls on her knees due to... Jumping backwards and hitting a wall on her own.

    The fight is lazy and dull... And made extra frustrating due to Weiss displaying a completely out-of-character incompetence. Dropping her guard, turning her back on the opponent, hitting a wall all by herself and consequently falling prone...

    I understand that the animators don't have Monty's knowledge of martial arts, but these fights were a huge let-down.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2018-01-03 at 06:16 PM.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Okay, which episode is Episode 10? When I look on YouTube, it's some behind-the-scenes video, with Episode 9 being the one with the cane conversation.

    Edit: Never mind, they just numbered them poorly and the titles get cut off on the YouTube app.
    Last edited by Delicious Taffy; 2018-01-02 at 05:59 AM.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11
    Show
    Your description of the other battles make them sound bigger and more impressive than they actually were.

    I understand that the animators don't have Monty's knowledge of martial arts, but these fights were a huge let-down.
    Please remember to label spoilers with the season and episode number. The typical viewer on this forum only got access to the episode an hour or so ago.

    Spoiler: V5C11
    Show
    My description of the battles is just describing what happens after watching over them practically second by second.

    You are vaguely characterizing the battles with superlatives like "lazies block ever" and "slowest attack in history" so that, while it may capture how watching this felt to you, it is clearly an inaccurate description of what actually happened.

    Your last comment highlights your loose approach to analyzing the fights in support of your emotional takeaway. Monty may or may not have an enviable amount knowledge of the martial arts, but his animations hardly stuck to such realism of motion.

    If you compare the White trailer to Weiss's season 5 trailer, you can see the difference between the how the two groups animate, and the new animations are less apt to skip frames and much more likely to display motion in a way that reflects how an actual human body moves.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-02 at 09:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: v5c11
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    Whoo-hooo. A showdown. Carefully directed towards "Suddenly, Jaune's Semblance! Suddenly, Blake saves the day!". Much fun. So joy. Wow.
    Really, what did I just see? The RJNR and friends have two decent tacticians and Ozpin, who hopefully counts as a third. Sooo, any chance of actually using that? No, why, let's go duel our designated enemies, like an obedient little sheep. Providing cover for Weiss, while she summons? Maybe don't wasting Ozpin on Leo? And, how about not engaging Hazel, just leave a guy to watch over him to counter his sudden action, if any? Or - hey, that's an idea - try pairing-named combo attacks? Anything? Please!
    English isn't my native. Sorry for all misunderstandings.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Please remember to label spoilers with the season and episode number. The typical viewer on this forum only got access to the episode an hour or so ago.

    Spoiler: V5C11
    Show
    My description of the battles is just describing what happens after watching over them practically second by second.

    You are vaguely characterizing the battles with superlatives like "lazies block ever" and "slowest attack in history" so that, while it may capture how watching this felt to you, it is clearly an inaccurate description of what actually happened.

    Your last comment highlights your loose approach to analyzing the fights in support of your emotional takeaway. Monty may or may not have an enviable amount knowledge of the martial arts, but his animations hardly stuck to such realism of motion.

    If you compare the White trailer to Weiss's season 5 trailer, you can see the difference between the how the two groups animate, and the new animations are less apt to skip frames and much more likely to display motion in a way that reflects how an actual human body moves.
    I didn't add the episode number because your post already had it. Since I quoted your post and was specifically replying to it, I figured it was clear what episode I was talking about.

    Spoiler: V5E11
    Show

    While my description does use hyperbole to convey how I feel, rather than mislead anyone... I would say your description is too vague to be called "accurate".

    You say there's a "tense exchange" between Jaune and Cinder. There really isn't. Unless "pushing blades together and one side easily blocking the other's attack" is your idea of tense.

    You say Emerald and Ruby trade gunfire... Which creates the impression that they were actually moving. When in truth, Ruby keeps spinning her scythe and neither character moves from where they stand. When one of them finally does (with a simple charge attack, which Ruby attempts to block by slowly raising her weapon) , the scene ends.

    You mention Oz's attacks on Leo, but not that Oz is apparently aiming at Leo's shield and that Leo isn't really fighting back.

    You say that Vernal x Weiss is shown in full, but doesn't mention that they barely engage each other during the battle. Usually just jumping around and avoiding projectiles (and not in any particularly imaginitive way) and moments where Weiss stops fighting to summon and is easily interrupted by Vernal.

    The thing about Monty's fights wasn't "realism" (the main character fights with an oversized scythe, for heaven's sake!), but creativity and fluidity. I myself mentioned that Human x Monster fights were never as good as human x human fights.

    There used to be cool-looking parries, counters and follow up strikes (which is the main reason human x human fights were usually more fun). Now it's basically "Straight-forward attack. Simple block. Reset. Repeat." most of the time. Exceptions are increasingly rare and short-lived.

    The show's animation in general improved, but when it comes to battle scenes, the creativity and intensity decreased a lot. Seriously, look at overhead attack by Jaune that I called "slowest on history". All frames are there, so in that way, it's "fluid'... But it starts from a stationary position, rather than as a natural follow up from combat and is so slow it looks more like Jaune was rehearsing the move than attacking an actual enemy.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2018-01-03 at 05:36 AM.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Spoiler
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    {snip}
    In this thread, all spoiler boxes must be labelled. If it is a spoiler, it must include the volume and chapter number of the most recent episode that it has any reliance upon. If it is not a spoiler, it must clearly state that it is not a spoiler instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I didn't add the episode number because your post already had it. Since I quoted your post and was specifically replying to it, I figured it was clear what episode I was talking about.
    This is not good enough. As I stated in the opening post, all spoiler boxes must be labelled. If someone quotes you, for example, how does a reader determine what you are spoiling in their quote? This is made even worse when you are quoted after a new episode is released.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: Volume 5, Chapter 11: The More the Merrier
    Show
    So, did anyone else spend the entire episode expecting Jaune to discover his semblance?

    Spoiler: Here are some clues we already have (spoiled in case people don't want meta information)
    Show
    We know that Jaune's semblance has already been seen in Volume 1 or 2.
    Q: Will we see Jaune's semblance finally show up?
    Kerry: You already have.
    Source: https://www.facebook.com/roosterteet...28777407181795


    It was likely seen, at least in part, during Volume 1, Episode 14 - Forever Fall Part 2.
    White screen from Cardin Winchester punching Jaune Arc.

    68. Monty: Oh.

    69. Miles: (inaudible) Look at Jaune's, Jaune Arc's... Uh...

    70. Monty: First hints of a Semblance.

    71. Miles: Yeah.
    Source: Director's Commentary (transcript)


    Jaune is at breaking point, do or die, and we know that the heiress is not about to die right here.

    "My Hobby: Replacing your soap with gravy" by rtg0922, Doll and Clint "Rawhide" Eastwood by Sneak

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: v5c11
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    It's great that our heroes' suspicion of Leo was left at vague and formless hints, because it means we don't have to worry about the heroes being prepared in any way (beyond what they roll out of bed doing). And it's great that Qrow doesn't have a plan beyond "everyone stay calm," because it means we have an excuse to split up the fight into 1v1s instead of giving the heroes a group objective.

    The Nevermore comparison shows how unnatural the disjointed-duel nature of this fight scene is--everyone hopping around in the same space launching projectiles and manipulating the environment, yet the only cross-duel interactions were an abortive Silver Eyes activation (and Ruby is punished immediately for not focusing on her duel) and a highly telegraphed finisher on an unmoving, nonthreatening foe while the attacker's teammate was nowhere to be seen. How many of the shots between 8:00 and 10:15 looked like character introduction clips in a fighting game? How many scene changes were motivated by characters looking at the previous duel for no real reason? Of the seven duels that break out, at least four are pure window dressing and treated as such. It's the problem with splitting the party encapsulated in one scene.

    For Weiss in particular, though, the most jarring comparison is with the train fight at the end of volume 2. We know that Weiss knows how to fight when she isn't given time or space to pull off flashy magic tricks. Yet in this fight, she seems completely reliant on the tactic of creating space to summon, and becomes utterly lost when it doesn't work. For all Vernal is a few steps up from White Fang Lieutenant Guy, Weiss still comes off as a few steps below her own abilities a few volumes back. At least this would be an opportunity for team tactics if the show felt like doing that--have someone cover for Weiss while she sets up her moves--but it doesn't.

    Of the other 'important' duels, Jaune vs. Cinder is a laugher, while Ruby and Emerald both make substantially less of their abilities than they did in previous volumes.

    But hey, at least we've telegraphed the moment of crisis for Jaune's Semblance so hard I think Morse code might have been involved.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: V05E11
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    Why are both sides of this fight acting like idiots? Qrowe's team just walks straight into the ambush they saw coming; Then plays the whole battle by ear. There's no group coordination at all. Meanwhile, the enemy completely forget about the plans they'd previously made. Wasn't the aim to surprise Qrowe with an overwhelming, instant assault? Instead, only Raven and Leo are waiting on site. Cinder and the others arrive later, via large and obvious portal. How were they expecting to ambush anyone with that?

    And Cinder is officially out of excuses for ignoring Ruby. The first time, she had no idea that silver eyes were such a threat. That mistake cost her an arm, an eye, and (temporarily) her voice. You'd think she'd be terrified of that happening again. If I were in her position, I'd make eliminating Ruby my first priority: Rather than assigning that job to one minor minion, while I casually taunt someone else. Ruby crippled Cinder with a stare. I honestly can't fathom why Cinder is so casual about that.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Spoiler: Volume 5, Chapter 11: The More the Merrier
    Show
    So, did anyone else spend the entire episode expecting Jaune to discover his semblance?

    Spoiler: Here are some clues we already have (spoiled in case people don't want meta information)
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    We know that Jaune's semblance has already been seen in Volume 1 or 2.

    Source: https://www.facebook.com/roosterteet...28777407181795


    It was likely seen, at least in part, during Volume 1, Episode 14 - Forever Fall Part 2.

    Source: Director's Commentary (transcript)


    Jaune is at breaking point, do or die, and we know that the heiress is not about to die right here.
    Spoiler: S5C11
    Show
    Many people seem to think Jaune's semblance is a forcefield. Juane's abilities in Grimm Eclipse relate to enhancing the whole group. Is it possible that Juane's semblance lets him supercharge aura for the whole group?

    That would instantly boost everyone on his side and allow Weiss to recover.

    Other theories don't work as well. There's that wild theory that Juane's semblance is Pyrrha's polarity ability. However, not only would this not work well for the situation at hand, it just isn't especially great ability for Juane to have, since Pyrrha did it so much better.

    The other semblance candidates are just supercharging an aspect of basic aura: Healing is an ability we haven't seen before except the confirmation that aura heals minor wounds. Supercharge aura would grant increased healing power and then some. Force-field is just what aura does dialed up a notch. We also saw from Pyrrha that one person could use aura to unlock another's (it looks like it is possible to transfer some of one's aura to another).

    Supercharging aura would encompass all aspects of the above and be consistent with Grimm Eclipse take on his abilities. We've already seen Juane's semblance because it was what we see when he was unlocked and when Cardin hurt his fist against Juane's face.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anyr View Post
    Spoiler: V05E11
    Show
    Why are both sides of this fight acting like idiots? Qrowe's team just walks straight into the ambush they saw coming; Then plays the whole battle by ear. There's no group coordination at all. Meanwhile, the enemy completely forget about the plans they'd previously made. Wasn't the aim to surprise Qrowe with an overwhelming, instant assault? Instead, only Raven and Leo are waiting on site. Cinder and the others arrive later, via large and obvious portal. How were they expecting to ambush anyone with that?

    And Cinder is officially out of excuses for ignoring Ruby.
    Spoiler: V5C11 Not a Mystery
    Show
    Qrow didn't just walk right in, they took the whole team and their weapons. Whatever tactics they'd plan to use to take advantage of their superior numbers went out the window (and staying together in a tight formation is a tactic) when Cinder successfully baited Juane, who was followed by Ruby.

    This isn't the smart thing for Juane to do but its believable. There's an old adage that no plan survives contact with the enemy. When Juane made contact, everyone just started fighting individually because that became the only thing to do.

    The enemies strategy is also believable, let Raven size up the situation and portal the rest in. Raven saw the team was on their guard with more people and so used the direct approach. It got them a surprise shot.

    Cinder avoiding Ruby is the one thing that shows optimal strategy. Ruby is the last opponent Cinder should face. Precisely because Cinder is uniquely vulnerable to Ruby's superpowers, Cinder wants someone else to keep Ruby locked down, which Emerald more or less accomplishes.


    By the way I saw the first bit of the next episode
    Spoiler: S5E11+ officialish future episode speculation
    Show
    (the RWBY Rewind show gave us no news on the Weiss front, just a lot of crying over Weiss dying. At one point the hosts facetiously took the editor's comment to mean Weiss dies and later gets resurrected).


    Spoiler: V5C12 preview
    Show
    Weiss is down and the fighting is stopped. Juane rushes to Weiss as Oscar runs to Ruby. Ruby is conscious but dazed. Hazel then attacks...Leo, demanding to know why Leo is getting beat by a child. Leo's answers that the child is Ozpin who already reincarnated.

    Something changes in Hazel, that soft-spoken man suddenly looks very grave and very very angry. He cries Ozzzpinnn! and we shoot to Hazel and Ozpin's voice says "uh oh."


    Spoiler: V5E12 My take on the first seconds and also Star Wars Episode 8
    Show
    Its best to give up any notions that we're going to see a frenetic 14-person fighting scene play out at breakneck speed. If you give that up, you might see a couple of interesting things may play out even in the first few minutes.

    Now we know why Hazel, whose pacifist values clash strongly with Salem's callous genocidal attitude, nevertheless is all in with team evil. Hazel wants revenge and he wants it on Ozpin. Whatever the grudge is, its something so serious its survived Ozpin's bodily death and easily transfers to a scrawny teenager who hasn't hit his growth spurt.

    Oscar is definitely the one in control, I suspect he's going to Ruby because in Oscar's mind, Ruby is awesome and they need her to win. This is opposed to Ozpin being in control. Ozpin would totally go for Ruby because he realizes Ruby is magic and they need her silver eyes to win.

    If Juane's semblance is going to come out, it's not coming out in a rush. I suspect he'll be given plenty cry over Weiss before we discover whether Juane's bleeding, easily-baited heart is going to sudden turn him into a superhero or if this is TLJ and he's Poe Dameron.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-04 at 08:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11 Not a Mystery
    Show
    Qrow didn't just walk right in, they took the whole team and their weapons. Whatever tactics they'd plan to use to take advantage of their superior numbers went out the window (and staying together in a tight formation is a tactic) when Cinder successfully baited Juane, who was followed by Ruby.

    This isn't the smart thing for Juane to do but its believable. There's an old adage that no plan survives contact with the enemy. When Juane made contact, everyone just started fighting individually because that became the only thing to do.
    Spoiler: V05E11
    Show
    But they make no attempt to team up after that, either. Ren and Nora are the only ones who even try to work together. This series has spent a lot of time building up team RWBY's combination attacks. Even without Blake, the remaining three members should have better coordination than this.


    Spoiler: V05E11
    Show
    The enemies strategy is also believable, let Raven size up the situation and portal the rest in. Raven saw the team was on their guard with more people and so used the direct approach. It got them a surprise shot.
    Spoiler: V05E11
    Show
    Except that that approach ruins their main plan. They wanted to stage an ambush that'd be (in their exact words) 'over in a heartbeat'. Cinder and the others should have already been lying in wait. Entering via large dramatic portal only makes sense if they don't care about the advantage of surprise: Which they definitely did.


    Spoiler: V05E11
    Show
    Cinder avoiding Ruby is the one thing that shows optimal strategy. Ruby is the last opponent Cinder should face. Precisely because Cinder is uniquely vulnerable to Ruby's superpowers, Cinder wants someone else to keep Ruby locked down, which Emerald more or less accomplishes.
    Spoiler: V05E11
    Show
    I'm not saying that Cinder should have faced Ruby directly. I'm saying that killing Ruby should have been Cinder's number one priority. Again, this girl crippled Cinder with a glance. Sending a single minion is nowhere near enough caution. She acts so amazingly casual. Why isn't she warily keeping track of Ruby's movements? Why isn't she tense and ready to react, at the slightest hint of silver eyes? I can buy the idea that she has to act confident, to avoid losing face. But this goes way beyond that. This is borderline suicidal.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: v5c11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Qrow didn't just walk right in, they took the whole team and their weapons.
    Both of which are normal things that they would do whether or not they had a plan and therefore do not indicate whether or not they had a plan at any point. The only reason Leo is surprised by the additional people is because he didn't know Weiss, Yang, or Oscar existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    This isn't the smart thing for Juane to do but its believable. There's an old adage that no plan survives contact with the enemy. When Juane made contact, everyone just started fighting individually because that became the only thing to do.
    I agree with the first two sentences but not at all with the third. Plans don't survive reality intact, but they aren't just abandoned without any acknowledgment the first time someone behaves unexpectedly. This was the only thing they could do because nothing else was ever really contemplated.

    And that's the thing, really: at no point is any plan implied, suggested, discussed, acknowledged, violated, or anything else. Everyone behaves exactly as they would if there was no planning or preparation. That doesn't necessarily mean there was no planning or preparation--I'm sort of expecting either Oz or Qrow to pull a rabbit out of their hat next episode--but there's only so much credit that can be given for something that is never shown.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: S5C11 Speculative Response
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    So about Juane's semblance reveal ...and what's going to happen next?

    I'm trying to subtly move the conversation away from the specifics about how horrible team-RWBYs alleged lack of planning and/or follow through. I am comfortable that whatever stilted dialogue we have, it will be better than our sparing in the above panels.

    To give credit where credit is due, Leth and Anyr launch a great team attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Spoiler: V5C11
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    I don't usually like being negative, but:

    I feel like the characters are passing around the idiot ball.

    Raven shouldn't have been hanging around in plain sight. At least 3 people with Qrow have seen her transformed into a bird, all of them know about it, and Qrow in particular would obviously be extremely familiar with the ploy. A black bird hanging out indoors is odd under normal circumstances; a black bird hanging out indoors, to these specific people, is extremely conspicuous.

    Jaune getting taunted into combat makes total sense. He's kindof an incompetent doofus who's steadily improving. It's a tried and true growth opportunity to be taunted into combat like this. Cinder playfully going along with it, ignoring the suite of high value targets standing right next to her, makes less sense to me.

    Cinder not taking Ruby out of the fight when she had initiative walking in through that portal was dumb. Taking a measly potshot at your biggest threat is just a wasted opportunity.

    CME not already being in position was dumb.

    Everyone standing around for a while was silly, especially team evil. They have two major threats right in front of them (Qrow, as a competent longstanding lieutenant to Ozpin, and Ruby; Ozpin as well but they weren't aware of that), they had initiative, and the power of 2 maidens. Narrative wise, this was never going to be a decisive victory, but anything less than a credible shot at it is just incongruent with their starting position, here. This meandering fight just... doesn't make sense unless they're deliberately stalling for time. If they are stalling for time I'll be happily surprised. Maybe something to do with the white fang?

    But barring some unknown timing sensitive plan that isn't quite ready yet, Qrow and co should be massively on the defensive. There's too many high value targets with too many metaphorical guns pointed at them not to be.

    Qrow and co not really having a plan, even just an escape plan, while walking into the obvious trap was silly, too.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Welp...It's new RWBY time and I'm honestly a bit torn on whither I like it or not.

    Anyway, lets dive right into Chapter 12 while Zodi prepares to fulfill the blood oath!

    As always, don't exactly expect this in order but if I manage that, happy coincidence!

    Spoiler: RWBY Volume 5 Ch. 12
    Show
    As to be expected with how the last episode ended, Chapter Twelve picks up right where the last chapter left off, with Weiss being impaled and everybody reacting to that fact. Mostly our heroes who stop to gape at the fact Weiss was just impaled. Jaune abandons fighting Cinder to carry off Weiss for medical attention and she just lets him which..makes perfect sense but this is the second time she's let Jaune get away. I can't help but feel like she's going to regret that some day. Ozcar decides that getting Ruby back up is a priority (both to keep their numbers up and to get those Silver Eyes back in action I'm guessing) and quickly slugs Leo one before running over to help her up. Here's where I'm going to break it up into easy to digest plot threads rather than trying to keep things in order.

    Hazel is Blanka/Bane/the Hulk

    Leo spills the beans to Hazel about Ozcar and here's where we finally find out a little bit about the big guy and why he likely has joined up with Salem. Hazel hates Ozpin to the point he wants to kill Ozpin over and over and over again so finding out that Oz is in Oscar not only throws him for a loop but infuriates him. Now I haven o idea if this is Hazel's normal fighting style or not, but the man grabs a handful of lightning (I'm guessing on this) Dust crystals in each hand and stabs them into his arms. Holy crap, Hazel is really hardcore and the dust bulks him up in a bit in the process while Oscar asks Ozpin if they should fight. Unlike last time, Ozpin tells him its time to run but Oscar is having known of that!

    Oscar is stupid and gets himself punched into a pillar for his bravery. Qrow keeps Leo distracted while Hazel closes in talking about how he had no idea Ozpin was inside of Oscar that day at the train. He sounds surprised that Ozpin hasn't told Oscar about him yet but we, the audience, shouldn't be because OZPIN DOESN'T TELL ANYONE ANYTHING LET ALONE HIS REINCARNATION. He also says that he's going to murder Oscar but the blood won't be on his hands, it'll be on Ozpin's. At this point Oscar rightfully demands to know what's the history between the two of them and Ozpin spills the beans. Hazel had a sister that enrolled in Beacon Academy, despite Hazel's objections, and she died...not fighting bandits, not fighting Grimm, but during a training exercise. Remember back in Volume 1 when Ozpin said students could die during the exams and everyone thought he was just trying to get them to take it seriously? Turns out no, someone has died during them and Hazel holds Ozpin responsible for her death. And I'll be honest..I'm a bit tired of Ozpin's crap so I'm kinda behind Hazel pummeling Ozpin into the ground but not Oscar who is oblivious to all of this.

    Oz insists that he should be in control because he knows how to deal with Hazel but Oscar refuses because he choose to fight so he's going to fight which...I like the sentiment. Oscar's choice to go on this adventure and try to save the world doesn't mean a whole lot if he's not going to fight these battles himself, but half-trained and facing down a Dust-powered Bane isn't the hill to die on for that principle. Not to me anyway. So Oscar asks Hazel if she knew the risks and brings the big guy up short. Oscar wants to know if she knew the risks when she enrolled at Beacon and of course she did but Oscar goes on to say that its not Ozpin's fault (no Oscar, it totally is) because Hazel's sister choose to put other people before herself despite the risks. Hazel's having none of that because she was a child who didn't know any better and Ozpin forcibly takes control (which is alarming as hell) to keep Oscar alive.

    I know Leo and Qrow get involved in this fight on occasion but their contributions are honestly minor and they don't really add to the important plot details. Qrow makes the occasional save and Leo fires flaming boulders at him for doing so, not much more than that. In the end this entire sequence is all about Hazel and Oscar and the action doesn't disappoint but I do have a nit pick. Hazel is running Dust directly into his body in order to hulk out, or so it seems, and his movements are loud and powerful but we don't really feel it. Of all the times for the anime 'stepping cracks the ground and I shatter the earth with my blows' trope to show up, this feels like the time for it! In the end, Hazel lands a helluva blow on Qrow and those two seem fully in command of the situation but Hazel also looks winded. Is that because of his dust power-up or because of how angry he is? Either way, the big guy looks gassed.

    White Knight

    So we finally get the big reveal of Jaune's semblance and its kinda what some people were saying before in that its a healing power. Jaune appears to be capable of healing other people (and possibly their auras...?) with his Semblance and...I can't say I'm disappointed but after so long I expected something bigger. And I'm not sure why, because there haven't been ANY hints that Jaune's aura was going to be some big, dramatic game changer. It was all fan-built expectation, y'know? So not unhappy with it not least of which because Weiss was dying but now she's not. Woo!

    Ruby also lays out a basic game plan for them because Yang was put in charge of going after Raven, Cinder, and Vernal but Mercury and Emerald cut her off. Not just cut her off but the two are completely dominating her because..well...Yang can't trust anything that she see's and Mercury is beating the crap out of her. So Nora is in charge of guarding Jaune and Weiss (who still needs healing), Ren is supposed to help Ozcar, and Ruby goes to help Yang. Who doesn't seem terribly beat up while Ruby says she's ticked. And here's the thing..this is fine and so is the line but the voice acting comes up a bit short in comparison to all the other performances we get this chapter. Ruby doesn't really convey the cold/tranquil anger that their going for right now. Its a minor complaint but something to note.

    Subverting Expectations

    So at some point in the fight Raven asks Cinder what she wants to do and Cinder makes the call to go for the Relic. They, the villains, are in a position of strength right now but rather than wait to see if it sticks Cinder wants to secure the relic and they descend into the bowels of Haven Academy. She also asks Leo to make sure Ruby doesn't die because Cinder wants to murder Ruby with her bare hands later.

    In the elevator we get a nice interaction between Vernal and Cinder where the latter asks if the former is excited. After all, who knows the last time one of the Maidens actually opened a vault and Vernal is going to be the first! This is Vernal's moment and she flat out says that this isn't fun for her and she's not doing it for herself. She's doing it for her family and bandit clan. Its her duty and Cinder makes fun of that talking about how well Raven's indoctrinated her before getting to the vault. And..the vault is actually really pretty. I like the way it looks and Vernal looks well...its kind of cute how in awe she is of everything while Raven tells her to focus. Cause they are there to betray Cinder and Salem, she needs Vernal to focus while Cinder tells Raven to lighten up because this is a once in a lifetime chance..not so subtly betraying that Cinder is planning a double cross of her own. So while Vernal approaches the door to open it (all she'll need to do is touch it) Raven prepares to attack..just for Cinder to start musing about all the things she's heard about Raven, taking her off guard just for Cinder to finish that too bad it was all a lie.

    And we get a cool magical sneak attack. There's no obvious motion or spin around that betrays the attack, Cinder just fires a bolt of cold at Raven from her right hand without even so much as looking behind her, freezing Raven in mid-attack. And as Vernal spins about, Cinder stabs into her gut with an extendable Grimm arm! There was a big secret beneath that sleeve and it is horrifying looking! It also looks like it replaces Cinder's normal arm which was likely lost to Ruby. Now, I'm going to do a bit of theory crafting for a moment, but so as not to break up the flow of this recap its going to be in its own spoiler.

    Spoiler: Cinder's Arm Theory
    Show
    Alright, we know that mechanical prosthetic seem to be relatively common in this world and there seems to be no equivalent to EMPs to be found. We also know that Salem has Watt's working on a new tail for Tyrion which I'm assuming is going to be mechanical but here's the thing..why isn't Salem's arm just a mechanical replacement?

    It seems to require actual effort to control and tame Cinder's Grimm arm, implying it could resist her control at some point, and Salem clearly values Cinder's safety quite highly so why take the risk of her arm not obeying her at a crucial moment?

    To put it simply, I don't think Salem completely trusts Cinder. Sure, there could be some other explanation like the parasite Grimm that Cinder used on Amber doesn't play well with a mechanical arm or some such but I think its almost a given now that the presence of the Grimm inside Cinder is why she's so vulnerable to Ruby's silver eyes, so why make Cinder more Grimm? I think its because Salem is rightfully cautious about Cinder's lust for power because we've seen this chapter and in previous that Cinder is willing to cast aside Salem's goals for her own. Salem doesn't seem to have any need for the Spring Maiden powers, just the relic, but Cinder tries to take them any way because she's gluttonously trying to accumulate as much power as she can. I'm guessing in part so that she is the sole controller of her destiny and no one else, given how we've heard her say in the Beginning of the End and how she seems to rankle under Salem's control at times.

    In other words if Salem can control Grimm, and I think she very well can, she had Cinder use these methods to acquire the Fall Maiden's powers and restore her arm so that if/WHEN Cinder turns on Salem, Salem will have an ace in the hole to neutralize Cinder with the minimum amount of effort. After all, what could Cinder do against Salem if Salem can control the Grimm parts of Cinder's body and make them turn on her?


    Okay, back to what's primarily going on! Cinder mocks Vernal as she goes down, basically giving Vernal the same speech that she gave Pyrrha. That Vernal didn't deserve the powers she had but Cinder did so she was going to take them except...this is where things get a little muddled for me. Either Vernal dies (with Cinder hoping she's the last thought in the girl's mind) or Cinder tries to absorb the Spring Maiden powers...but either way, Cinder begins to get a little frantic that she can't seem to find the Maiden's power as Raven breaks free of the ice and declares that's because Vernal was never the Spring Maiden...RAVEN was.

    ...Okay...I feel like the fandom's opinion on this twist is going to be split. This is a legitimately good twist in the sense no one say this coming and, looking back, the show never actually tells us that Vernal is the Spring Maiden. It gives us lots of little hints but then it just lets us assume that Vernal is the Spring Maiden because we know the Spring Maiden is in Raven's camp but everyone thought it was a character we hadn't been introduced to yet..not Yang's mom. And that works, they legitimately gave us a red herring and the fandom freakin' ran with it making the reveal that Raven is the Spring Maiden a legitimate surprise. So kudos on that..BUT....this does bring up the question if those expectations deserved to be subverted. Sometimes that's a good thing but here I can't shake the feeling that its subverting expectations for subversion sake because they don't do a whole lot of foreshadowing that Vernal isn't the Spring Maiden..the most we get is the fact Leo never seems to react like he's seen Vernal before but Leo is barely in a scene with Vernal and the conversation in the elevator where Vernal's response to Cinder doesn't sound like the kind of girl who would run away when the weight of the world was suddenly put on her shoulders. Subtle, but its not bad...it just doesn't feel like its ENOUGH, y'know?

    Anyway, this episode is pretty good. I'd say its kept from being great because of the subjective opinion on the twist at the end and the way Hazel's backstory is word-vomitted out in the middle of a fight. As the last episode before the finale (I think?) it does a good job of setting us up for an epic clash in the finale between Raven and Cinder with the Faunus making the save at some point so it does succeed at that. There's just a few fine details I would probably change about the chapter to make things flow a bit better.


    Anyway, those are my thoughts! What's yours?
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: V5E12
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    I'm inclined to agree it's a twist for twists sake rather than good story telling. The otherway that scene could have gone is in her dying moments Vernal, who has been told how the powers work, concentrates on the frozen figure of Raven and deliberately passes them onto her.

    Personally I'd say that would be the better option because it means Cinder has once again been defeated her need to show off, it shows the difference between Ospin/Raven as she actually tells her followers everything she knows and it pays off all Vernals talk of acting for the good of the tribe.
    Last edited by Spacewolf; 2018-01-06 at 05:31 PM.

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    As Callos_DeTerran already mentioned, today is RWBY day.

    For paid subscribers the most recent episode is Vol 5 Chapter 12: Vault of the Spring Maiden

    http://roosterteeth.com/episode/rwby...-5-12lkopoklk1

    For youtubers the most recent episode is Vol 5 Chapter 11: The More The Merrier.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrlaeR8dFbw

    I already seen Vol 5 Chapter 12, but I will wait till later to post my thoughts.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    So headcanon time

    Spoiler: Vol 5 Chapter 12
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    I will post my real thoughts later, but silly headcanon time.

    My headcanon is Nora is some form of relative Oscar. We know that Oscar was living with his Aunt prior to Ozpin joining Oscar's life.

    Oscar's father is the deadbeat Hazel who walked out of Oscar's life after Hazel's sister died to the training accident involving Beacon / Ozpin's school. My only evidence for Oscar and Hazel being related is that they kind of look alike.

    We know Hazel has an electricity based power where he gets more powerful and takes on a berserker type traits aka Mr. Hyde when he injects himself full of electricity dust.

    Who has a similar powerset to Hazel...you guessed it Nora. Somehow Nora and Hazel are going to fight, Hazel powers up Nora, and then Nora does her classic line.



    And breaks Hazel's legs. Only then we find out some of Nora's history and how she is somehow related to Hazel and Oscar.

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  27. - Top - End - #237
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: V5C11
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    Is this the first time we saw Leo's tail?

    Becuase he's got a lion tail, indicating that he is a lion faunus.

    And this is the first time I noticed.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5E12
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    Now, I'm going to do a bit of theory crafting for a moment, but so as not to break up the flow of this recap its going to be in its own spoiler.

    Spoiler: Cinder's Arm Theory
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    Alright, we know that mechanical prosthetic seem to be relatively common in this world and there seems to be no equivalent to EMPs to be found. We also know that Salem has Watt's working on a new tail for Tyrion which I'm assuming is going to be mechanical but here's the thing..why isn't Salem's arm just a mechanical replacement?

    It seems to require actual effort to control and tame Cinder's Grimm arm, implying it could resist her control at some point, and Salem clearly values Cinder's safety quite highly so why take the risk of her arm not obeying her at a crucial moment?

    To put it simply, I don't think Salem completely trusts Cinder. Sure, there could be some other explanation like the parasite Grimm that Cinder used on Amber doesn't play well with a mechanical arm or some such but I think its almost a given now that the presence of the Grimm inside Cinder is why she's so vulnerable to Ruby's silver eyes, so why make Cinder more Grimm? I think its because Salem is rightfully cautious about Cinder's lust for power because we've seen this chapter and in previous that Cinder is willing to cast aside Salem's goals for her own. Salem doesn't seem to have any need for the Spring Maiden powers, just the relic, but Cinder tries to take them any way because she's gluttonously trying to accumulate as much power as she can. I'm guessing in part so that she is the sole controller of her destiny and no one else, given how we've heard her say in the Beginning of the End and how she seems to rankle under Salem's control at times.

    In other words if Salem can control Grimm, and I think she very well can, she had Cinder use these methods to acquire the Fall Maiden's powers and restore her arm so that if/WHEN Cinder turns on Salem, Salem will have an ace in the hole to neutralize Cinder with the minimum amount of effort. After all, what could Cinder do against Salem if Salem can control the Grimm parts of Cinder's body and make them turn on her?


    Spoiler: S5C12 A hand for the arm
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    Its not theorycrafting to say that Cinder has her own, distinct, desires and her own following. That's been clear. It was recently reinforced by Emerald last episode who declares her loyalty to Cinder and that she "couldn't care less about Salem." Cinder is unique among Salem's followers with her own following and is the sole villain that has appeared (not counting Emerald and Mercury) in all five seasons.

    Whether Salem is grimmifying Cinder to control her is an interesting theory. Its also possible that Salem's plan is for Cinder to grab all the maiden powers. However, if Cinder ends up gobbling multiple maiden powers she may grow too big to control.

    Cinder ousting Salem to replace her as the big bad would be the ultimate subversion of expectations. It might prove ill to the story given how often we've been seeing the Starscream lately and I seem to hear that the thread prefers Salem generally (I'm a Cinder fan). However, a number of other ways Cinder's growing power can introduce a wild card into the story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Spoiler: V5E12
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    BUT....this does bring up the question if those expectations deserved to be subverted. Sometimes that's a good thing but here I can't shake the feeling that its subverting expectations for subversion sake because they don't do a whole lot of foreshadowing that Vernal isn't the Spring Maiden..the most we get is the fact Leo never seems to react like he's seen Vernal before but Leo is barely in a scene with Vernal and the conversation in the elevator where Vernal's response to Cinder doesn't sound like the kind of girl who would run away when the weight of the world was suddenly put on her shoulders. Subtle, but its not bad...it just doesn't feel like its ENOUGH, y'know?.


    Anyway, those are my thoughts! What's yours?
    Spoiler: V5C12 Great Expectations
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    The spring maiden who ran off doesn't sound like Vernal...but it does sound like Raven. That brings up the whole question as to how well Raven fits with what we were told about the Spring Maiden.

    While Raven does fit the loose description of the Spring Maiden who ran off, and there was some ambiguity who that maiden was when Vernal was around (and Raven always had her helmet on when magic went on), that's where the fit ends.

    Qrow clearly had no idea that Raven was the Maiden. In V4C4 he tells Raven straight away that he "wasn't talking about you" (in referring to the destruction of Shion village) and that "he has no idea who the Spring Maiden is." If Qrow is Raven's brother and she ran away to join the bandits, that seems like something he'd know.

    Moreover, Raven should be at that age she could be the maiden and that's a very different age from what Vernal appears (about 17 the same as Yang, Raven's daughter). The only theory that works is that the Spring Maiden joined up with the bandits, got killed (we don't know exactly why...) and Raven ended up with the powers.

    Vernal of course, has been suggesting to everyone she was the maiden for years to provide Raven cover.

    I think we should wait and see the payoff beyond the very last seconds of this episode before we judge how effective Raven is as Spring Maiden, and whether this would have worked just as well with Vernal staying in the slot.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-06 at 09:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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  29. - Top - End - #239
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    So Spacewolf posted all of that, huh? Not me? :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C12 Great Expectations
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    The spring maiden who ran off doesn't sound like Vernal...but it does sound like Raven. That brings up the whole question as to how well Raven fits with what we were told about the Spring Maiden.

    While Raven does fit the loose description of the Spring Maiden who ran off, and there was some ambiguity who that maiden was when Vernal was around (and Raven always had her helmet on when magic went on), that's where the fit ends.

    Qrow clearly had no idea that Raven was the Maiden. In V4C4 he tells Raven straight away that he "wasn't talking about you" (in referring to the destruction of Shion village) and that "he has no idea who the Spring Maiden is." If Qrow is Raven's brother and she ran away to join the bandits, that seems like something he'd know.

    Moreover, Raven should be at that age she could be the maiden and that's a very different age from what Vernal appears (about 17 the same as Yang, Raven's daughter). The only theory that works is that the Spring Maiden joined up with the bandits, got killed (we don't know exactly why...) and Raven ended up with the powers.

    Vernal of course, has been suggesting to everyone she was the maiden for years to provide Raven cover.

    I think we should wait and see the payoff beyond the very last seconds of this episode before we judge how effective Raven is as Spring Maiden, and whether this would have worked just as well with Vernal staying in the slot.
    Spoiler: V5 Ch 12 Great Expectations
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    I should clarify that I don't hate the idea that Raven is the Spring Maiden in and of itself, it could work just fine. Depends on what they do with it, you know?

    What kind of sticks in my head is how they got here and why they did it because it almost completely invalidates Vernal's existence. It would mean that she, as a character in the narrative, exists only to be a vehicle for this twist because they haven't done anything else with her existence. They could and very well might but haven't so far which is why it feels like a twist for twists sake which I'm not really a fan of. I don't mind twisting fan expectations one bit but there should be a reason behind it.

    All that said, I don't think either Vernal or Raven where the Spring Maiden that Leo was talking about. I think that Spring Maiden ran off and ran afoul of bandits and then one of two things..

    One. Raven killed her and suddenly found out she was a Maiden and is part of the reason why she contacted Qrow about Salem's plans after distancing herself for so long from the hidden war between Ozpin and Salem. She was suddenly a major piece in that war and wanted to know the landscape. Makes sense.

    Two. More along the lines of what you said where the Spring Maiden joined up with Raven, died doing something, and her last thoughts were of Raven.

    I don't know which I prefer..one is better for Raven's character after almost an entire season of tearing it down because it establishes as cunning and vicious. The second lets them do more with Vernal cause if say...Vernal was the Maiden's sister, it explains a large degree of Vernal's loyalty towards Raven. They weren't just both bandits, but her sister's/friend's/lover's/whatever thought of Raven in their last moments and basically entrusted all that magical power to her.

    A fair bit of my opinion is going to be based around what happens next chapter honestly.
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  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

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    Y'know I've realized: since the Maidens powers are passed on only to other women based on them thinking about them......would the best way to take advantage of this is by setting up traditions of lesbianism, teaching daughters to be the next maiden and to be as close as possible to their mothers, and selecting female offspring over male offspring for inheritance?

    like, realistically the powers wouldn't be kept secret, it would be turned into a way to keep their power in hands of the people they want. the Maidens would take over the four nations, then enforce their rule by taking lesbian lovers and using men only for reproduction, discarding all male heirs while selecting for female ones and thus their daughters would be the ones trained to be competent fighters, and all these redundant female companions would be to make sure the Maiden dies thinking about their female family.

    of course nobility around them would want to emulate the Maiden-Queen as well as potentially make their own daughters a potential candidate for becoming a Maiden, thus providing incentive for all the nobility of the nations to select their daughters to be warriors over men?

    this would eventually lead to a world where women are basically in the positions of power while men would be ones that would be lower class, simply because of the chance of becoming a Maiden, no matter how small. which would lead to an interesting perception of Jaune being wimpy as just "normal" for men in Remnant while being tough and warrior focused would be seen as womanly.

    my god, they really didn't think about the implications of their world, didn't they? the series would be so much better by just changing the Maidens from something secret to being the main rulers of the world helping keeping the Grimm back with their awesome magic super-powers and all the implications derived from that.
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