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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: V5 c12
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    If Vernal isn't the maiden, then Raven's diss of Cinder's name(Fall) being too appropriate for a Maiden becomes foreshadowing.

    Because Vernal means Spring.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    So Spacewolf posted all of that, huh? Not me? :P

    Spoiler: V5 Ch 12 Great Expectations
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    I should clarify that I don't hate the idea that Raven is the Spring Maiden in and of itself, it could work just fine. Depends on what they do with it, you know?

    What kind of sticks in my head is how they got here and why they did it because it almost completely invalidates Vernal's existence. It would mean that she, as a character in the narrative, exists only to be a vehicle for this twist because they haven't done anything else with her existence. They could and very well might but haven't so far which is why it feels like a twist for twists sake which I'm not really a fan of. I don't mind twisting fan expectations one bit but there should be a reason behind it.

    All that said, I don't think either Vernal or Raven where the Spring Maiden that Leo was talking about. I think that Spring Maiden ran off and ran afoul of bandits and then one of two things..

    One. Raven killed her and suddenly found out she was a Maiden and is part of the reason why she contacted Qrow about Salem's plans after distancing herself for so long from the hidden war between Ozpin and Salem. She was suddenly a major piece in that war and wanted to know the landscape. Makes sense.

    Two. More along the lines of what you said where the Spring Maiden joined up with Raven, died doing something, and her last thoughts were of Raven.

    I don't know which I prefer..one is better for Raven's character after almost an entire season of tearing it down because it establishes as cunning and vicious. The second lets them do more with Vernal cause if say...Vernal was the Maiden's sister, it explains a large degree of Vernal's loyalty towards Raven. They weren't just both bandits, but her sister's/friend's/lover's/whatever thought of Raven in their last moments and basically entrusted all that magical power to her.

    A fair bit of my opinion is going to be based around what happens next chapter honestly.
    Spacewolf who?

    Spoiler: V5C12 Great Expectations
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    Also, I agree with everything else you posted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Spoiler: V5 c12
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    If Vernal isn't the maiden, then Raven's diss of Cinder's name(Fall) being too appropriate for a Maiden becomes foreshadowing.

    Because Vernal means Spring.
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    Yep. Vernal equinox and all that.

    I have to admit, I didn't see it coming, but it's an obvious play in hindsight: runaway Maiden comes to your tribe, you kill the Maiden, inherit her powers, and pick someone of appropriate age from your tribe to serve as a stand-in, and give them such an obvious name that nobody will question it. Everyone who knows enough to hunt the Maiden knows enough to expect a kid and would accept a kid when introduced while Raven controls the power directly. A ruthlessly pragmatic and flatly evil strategy, but she's running a tribe of raiders, after all...

    If that's the case, consider me impressed.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    I exist, sorry for being bad at keeping current for conversations sake. Things have been kinda rough. At least we have eggnog. At least we have Pop Team Epic.

    Spoiler: V5C11
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    Okay lets do this. We open on the moon facing the front of the screen, which I mean I'll give them that having a destroyed moon that still rotates correctly is interesting, if not an overly well understood thing. But yeah it's night, things are probably about to come to a head. Gotta...have a climax to the season, you know. Our heroes are all walking into the trap as it's been laid out in previous episodes. Let's hope they have a plan, since I can't imagine Ozpin and Qrowe haven't been at least thinking of possible betrayal play solutions. The music is a bit generic here, but not bad as far as hyping up to the big fight music goes.

    Inside the Mistral fighting school of Haven (I think that's what it's called) we see a statue of a lady in robes holding up the podium type place the headmaster, Leo, would give (and is now) giving a speech from. The statue is covered in gold chains. I wish we had gotten a better look at the Beacon statue, since this is some pretty clear "symbolism" attempts here, but without the first one and without a good grasp of what it could represent (other than the fact that civilization is built on the broken bodies of children, particularly girls).

    Leo is shocked that Yang and Weiss are their, as should be expected since they never told him about them. Though this won't change things much since the bad guys know they're there. Still, it's a trump card they kept hidden so good for them. That's thinking. They did however bring their weapons visibly...though to be fair not everyone has hammer space like Ruby. Also Leo is one to talk he has a big ole cross gauntlet on his hand that I don't doubt for a second everyone saw. It's not even hidden that well, and it's clear by his attempts TO hide it that he knows that.

    Qrowe brushes it off by mentioning they're all murderers for hire basically, of course they have their weapons on them. He's not wrong. He asks if Leo's already, and he tries to brush it off as him just not having his evening coffee. Look man, I find coffee disgusting, but even I know you don't drink coffee at night. Yang meanwhile spots Raven, who isn't even trying to hide somewhere her bird body would be effective at hiding in. Because she's bad at this. Yang of course says "Mom?" and Qrowe shoots at the bird, and she vooms behind Leo to return to her human form.

    Nora says, shocked, "they really are magic!" and...look, I've harped on this. But I have to say it. What is so weird about being able to turn into a bird? Like, just tell me. Establish something. Have someone say like "wait you can turn into a bird? That's not something Semblances can possibly do" or SOMETHING. I know, it's implicit with the idea that this bird transformation that Semblances can't, but given this series complete undesire to explain things it would of been nice to get some degree of world understanding by this point. We have no reason to actually assume the aura power can't turn you into a bird, given some of the other aura powers we've seen. So please, just...establish SOMETHING.

    Raven is insulted that Qrowe missed. She shouldn't of moved than. Qrowe is of course super pissed about this, and Raven eggs him on by framing this as him being the baddie. She then goes on to explain that Leo made a choice, same as them. Qrowe, for what it's worth, puts his weapon away and asks her to join them. Together they can beat Salem, she HAS the Spring Maiden. Raven's surprised Qrowe still believes Ozpin after all the spying they've done for him. There's not BEATING Salem. I wish she'd explain why she believes that, but that's not really a show flaw.

    Ruby interrupts, saying that they've done the impossible. What's one more thing. Fair, I suppose. She tries to use Friendship Speech on Raven, and it does not work. Raven says she sounds "just like your mother" and slices open a portal for the rest of the baddies to jump in through (which seems like a poor idea to be honest) and, more immediately, so Cinder can huck a fireball through thet portal into Ruby's face, knocking her down. All the baddies leave the portal, and it's time for this ambush to begin!

    I...I guess. This was a really bad ambush. Only two people where here to do the actual initial ambushing, and while yes it's the two people most likely to distract them to cause a discussion so Raven can open the portal, this has SO many points of failure. Raven could of betrayed them. Also can people SEE through Raven's portals? Cause Cinder could of ****in' roasted whoever. And now they're all just leaving the portal single file and lining up so we can very obviously separate into our designated 1v1 fights.

    Oh, okay. The big guy who's done nothing is also here, and he's behind everyone and he closes the doors that were already closed but he had to walk in through to come in dramatically to close them dramatically so they could notice he's here in the first place. What a terrible ambush. He does however tell us the White Fangs have set us up the bomb, so no one enters or leaves. I mean fair, though given what our heroes have survived before I don't think "some bombs" will do all that much damage if they did try to leave. Running still feels like an option here. Though to be fair those are a LOT of bombs...and also a lot of White Fang. I guess all our heroes failed their spot checks.

    Qrowe asks how long Raven has been with them, and Cinder does what she does best when not saying nothing, which is saying things we already know for the benefit of characters nearby, which is good. Raven's new, but Leo here's been in Salem's pocket for basically ever. Qrowe realizes this means all his dead friends are because of him and is just flabbergasted, but Cinder assures him it's fine. ******** and Hazel would of found all his friends and murdered them anyway.

    Jaune starts freaking out, absolutely horrified that Cinder can crack jokes and make wise about all this murder and bloodshed. That they can do all this killing with a smile. "How broken inside are you?" which is a fascinating way of putting it, I'll give them that. There's some minor back and forth, by which I mean Qrowe tries to stop Jaune from freaking out and all the other heroes react to Jaune clearly venting the frustration of like who knows how long at her. To which Cinder finally replies...

    "...who're you again?"

    Jaune screams and rushes forward, and you know what? Props. The only good thing about early seasons was Jaune, Cinder has NO idea who this mother****er is, Jaune's more important person was killed by her. This was set up really well, and played off really well, and actual credit to Cinder's voice actress here. She's still not the best voice actress in thet world, but she's really able to sell "bored and kind of annoyed, but not in any real serious way" pretty well. We have a reason to care that Jaune is so angry here, and this isn't just some devilish ploy to get at him that would be absurd or otherwise annoying. She just truly does not know who this ****ing goober is. This is the best line in the season I think. Best scene is still the ugly noodle bowl dinner scene though.

    Jaune and Cinder clash swords, and the fighting slowly begins to unfold as everyone, one by one, springs into action. I'll be rating the fight pairing since, as a 1v1 battle series, this is basically the bread and butter of the climax of the arc. This is important. I'll give my thoughts on the whole "1v1 in a vacuum fight" aesthetic that I'm going to assume (I'm being told correctly) people don't really like. I have mixed feelings about it, but then this is RWBY I repeat myself.

    Jaune vs Cinder (we care about this fight), Ruby vs Emerald (likely to be boring and uninteresting because it's a child vs a coward), Yang vs Mercury (probably the second best pairing, the only one that makes sense beyond Jaune vs Cinder ignoring that Cinder should just ignore Jaune outright to go for Ruby), Vernal vs Weiss (Vernal wants to do this but Raven orders her to anyway. Also there's a line about "wasting her power" and how she shouldn't do it to Weiss, and um...do the Maidens have a MP gauge? Is that what we're supposed to get from this) and of course, Raven fights Qrowe (makes sense, but ultimately I don't care about this since Raven shouldn't actually be fighting and should be betraying everyone at this point as she planned. Also they have some decent banter about family to start it off). I uh...guess this means Nora, Ren, and Ozcar don't have anything to do? Or maybe they can all just gang up on Leo since Hazel is determined to be The Man Who Does Nothing for this entire ****ing series. Also Weiss just posing and saying "I'm more than a name" like that, and really this entire opening exchange BIT in general, feels way like a fighting game. Which is...eeeh, but it's also appropriate for RWBY's aesthetic, such as it is.

    Spoiler: 1v1 me bro
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    So, as a writer and generally just a consumer of the series this series is based on, the idea of a 1v1 solo fight is basically intrinsic to the genre. It's weird not to have it be a thing, and when fights overlap in ways it's a fun interesting twist on a formula, and can lead to some fun stuff (One Piece has some great examples of this as an example). That being said, I can get why people are upset about this given they're ALL IN THE SAME ****ING ROOM. That, plus the fact that RWBY is kind of a series that built itself on being more team fight oriented, can definitely make this feel weirdly forced. And if you don't like that, if you find that weird, that's fine. You're correct. As a writer you can run into situations where you don't want the fights to overlap but you do want them in the same space physically, and that's a difficult situation to be in. But the trick is to find a way to fix that. For one, this is a huge mansion type place. Have it start here, but have the villains (most of whom want to kill a specific person in this scenario, which is super convienant for the story writing here!) force them to separate into different rooms so it can be a more reasonable 1v1 style scenario. Make it part of the good guys winning that they're trying to GET to the center room, or to a specific friend to help them (or a specific enemy to kill, but that's more complicated). It's an interesting thing to think about, especially if writing is a thing you want to do.

    That said this scene runs into a bit of a snag, especially having it all take place in the same huge location. Cinder has literally no reason what so ever to stay in her fight, and nothing is stopping her. Cinder would, should, and COULD just ignore Jaune entirely and walk towards Ruby and at best force a 2v1. Meanwhile, Emerald's character is that of a pretty craven coward, why is she fighting THE MAIN CHARACTER? Why did she decide to THAT? Why not use her trick powers to go mess with...I don't know, Nora and Ren, the two people who are without a fight entirely in this group who have had the least screen time of the principle characters of this arc and also are probably the weakest given all other options. Also, why are Raven and Vernal even fighting at all. Vernal I sort of get since the big twist is going to be that she leaves to join Salem for Raven's sake, but as far as Raven is concerned they're not ACTUALLY here to help, they're here to get the Relic and **** off. Why are they fighting at all? Is Raven just that upset at being shot at? I mean that's fair, she's got a hair trigger like her daughter, but it feels weird to me. Vernal at least seems to be the one least into it, since she just wants to kill her a rich girl (I get it's her character trait but why are all of Weiss's fights against people who have "I want to see a Schnee bleed" people?). So ultimately this scene is workable but is full of actual holes that bother me from a writing perspective. Ren and Nora fighting Hazel is interesting but otherwise, as said by the characters in universe, basically just because they have to.


    Anyway lets...continue with the actual episode. Dissertation on writing over, back to liveblogging my thoughts on a tv show. Ozcar, Nora, and Ren really are just doing nothing, though Ozcar is making his way up to Leo. We get a nice shot of Hazel watching them and he has what are either tattoos or scars on his arms just hidden by his sleeves, and that's interesting. Oh wait wow Hazel is ACTUALLY going to go fight Nora and Ren together. Though he just does not care at all. And neither do they, this is just because they're on opposite sides, they admit this outright, and that's just silly.

    And...and then the realization kicks in. We're not going to get to see every fight in detail. Why? What's the ****ing point? This show is predominately about fighting, why don't we get to see the fights? Leo just watches on as fighting happens off screen. Ozcar approaches him, and Leo (despite knowing Ozpin's secret) doesn't clue in that this is Ozpin. I get he's meant to be sort of stupid, but that feels like a mistake to me. Leo says he's warning him to back up, and unfurls his cross into a shield. Judging by the coloured circles on it it's capable of switching to various dust elemental effects like Weiss's sword and holy **** RWBY actually had a moment of visual consistency within itself. I'm proud of you, it's like a baby with no legs learning how to crawl.

    Wait hold up Leo has a tail. HE'S ACTUAL A LION. He is literally the cowardly lion. I don't know if I should be angry or not. Also he's...the headmaster of one of the four kingdom's great fighting schools. In the only country we've seen that is actually negative towards Faunus. God, this series continues to be really bad with how it does it's racism plot, even in the subtle details.

    ...Leo then USES his weapon, which he spins like a dial to get to the elements he wants. He chooses red-fire and then white-ice to...make...firerock. And he shoots it at Ozcar. I ****ing hate this shield now. They ruined it. They had a visually consistent thing in the show and then just picked randomly. Also it's unclear if Ozcar turned his aura on or if it broke or what. If it broke from a single boulder on fire he's going to die again.

    WAIT HOLD ON WHY IS THIS EPISODE ONLY 15 ****ING MINUTES? What happened to consistent video length? Especially given there's IMPORTANT FIGHTS GOING ON RIGHT NOW. FIGHTS WE WANNA SEE.

    Ozcar takes out his cane and then Leo's like "oooh. Oh ****". And also it's revealed Oscar was the one who did that, not Ozpin specifically, so that's cool and all. He begins to fight Leo, and it's neat a fight but I really just care about Ozpin getting to talk to the guy. Also look I know he's a coward but a literal child is beating him. I get that he's kind of a blessed god child with a wizard inside of him feeding him muscle memory but come on dude, TRY to fight back?

    Okay, Leo explains some degree of why he's so surprised. He knew he'd be back. He just kinda figured...you know. It'd take awhile. It wouldn't end up finding him IMMEDIATELY. But then he gets the realization...waaait. That means this isn't ACTUALLY Ozpin, it's still just some random kid. Which means....if he BRINGS HIM TO SALEM, SHE'LL BE HAPPY SO HE CAN GET OUT FROM HER THUMB.

    I mean I can see why that train of logic came to that conclusion, but I hope he realizes that every single car is derailed. She'll just kill him. Immediately. And you. Oscar is momentarily discouraged by this sudden show of at least quasi force from Leo, and Ozpin's just like "kick his ass superdave".

    Meanwhile in the second least interesting fight, Weiss is jumpin' around doing her flippy dippy glyph **** while Vernal uses her terrible stupid bladed cestus with the guns inside them weapon, trying to boomerang hit her. It isn't working and it isn't very fun, and the way the fight is playing out implies it's the only fight going on given how much room they're moving in. This is not a very good fight, and is a pretty clear example of how RWBY tends to not actually do fights well, 1v1 or otherwise. We do see fractions of other fights as they flip around, but it's just in blink and you'll miss it shots I only notice AFTER I pause to write stuff.

    For reasons I don't quite understand Weiss tried to jump backwards and slammed her back into a pillar. Weiss is supposed to be better than this, I think?

    Wait hold on a second VERNAL IS JUST USING TYRION'S WEAPONS. I'm pretty sure these are LITERALLY her stupid ****ing gunaxe cestuses. WHAT THE HELL?! Was he not supposed to get his tail cut off? Was he supposed to be here? What changed? Whd does Vernal have his garbage scorpion claw weapons? Also WHY IS WEISS SUDDENLY SO BAD? She's been shown to be able to summon her knight really fast, and now all of a sudden she can't. Also Vernal is using her laser beam power and that's supposed to be the thing Raven said not to do. Why? Is it meant to imply that Weiss is strong enough to cause Vernal to use her Maiden Power but also not strong enough to actually put up any sort of fight? Also is that even her maiden power? It's unclear.

    Why is THIS the fight we get to see? Out of ALL OF THEM, why THIS ONE?

    I will admit that Weiss getting beaned in the ****ing face with the axe cestus gun boomerang was funny. Somehow she's able to get up from this despite being pushed back and not so much rolling as she was slide across her ass. She somehow gets up onto her knees from this position and the animation looks weird.

    We cut to an actual fight, though sadly one that probably shouldn't actually be going on given who's involved. Cinder is of course kicking Jaune's **** in. Cinder's starting to remember who Jaune is, despite having never interacted with him at any point during the series as far as I can remember, which sadly diminishes the joke earlier.

    Emerald is so bad at fighting that Ruby has time to actually watch Jaune and Cinder fight. Jesus Emerald why did you pick THE MAIN CHARACTER to fight, of all people. You have a choice of ANYONE YOU WANTED, and you picked the protagonist. She starts shooting at Ruby and Ruby is just deflecting the bullets with basically not one single bit of effort and it's hilarious. Ruby asks why Emerald is doing this since she's obligated to try doing Friendship Speech once per unique encounter and Raven opening the portal counts as a new one, and Emerald actually interrupts her to say she owes Cinder, not Salem, so that's why she's doing this. I suppose that works, though if anyone is going to fall to Friendship Speech it's Emerald. She has no business being here. Emerald gets annoyed at Ruby apparently trying to fight Cinder instead of her (this is not established) so she does an illusion thing to distract her and then there's this actually kind of interesting scene where Emerald kicks Ruby over her feet and Ruby recovers by shooting her gun I don't know what this works just roll with it and we see the bullet fly in slow motion past Weiss as our transition to her fight again. It's a cool transition, but it would work a lot better if we actually were seeing all the fights.

    Weiss is really bad at fighting all of a sudden. Maybe she's just not used to fighting people? They do some pretty video game-y exchanges, but then Vernal clamps her cestus's around Weiss's sword while it's planted in the ground for summoning (why is this required exactly? As a focus?) and then shoots Weiss with lasers so that her aura breaks! Finally, something is actually happening that matters. Her voice echoes throughout the entire room, specifically to Jaune who hears it and hesitates. Cinder is like "oh you're going to let her die too?" which is very clearly her just trying to egg Jaune on, she has no idea who died that he cares about she's just making an educated guess. It kinda bothers me, I do think it'd be just funnier in general if Jaune didn't come to her mind at all. That way when Jaune manages to hurt her she has a reason to. Anyway Cinder decides to use her Maiden Power on Jaune maybe, turning her fire sword into an even more fire sword.

    We cut back to Ruby vs Emerald and who cares. She see's Jaune and Cbiinder charging at each other and it makes her angry and scared enough to turn her eyeball wings on, but only a little bit. I do like this bit of the fights interacting, though the fact that we've only seen three of the fights going on bothers me. For some reason Emerald is able to stop Ruby by bopping her on the head before the eyeball wings actually tear anyone's limbs off. Boo, lame. But for what it's worth Cinder DOES start feeling pain from the eyes flashing out, so that's interesting at least.

    Jaune proves he's the only good character by taking this opportunity to try and stab cinder directly in the face. Sadly she's able to dodge enough to avoid it, but she gets a chip of her face mask sliced off...which implies that it's not just a missing eye but like an entire missing chunk of head? Either way Jaune, aim a little lower. You coulda done more than just piss her off.

    Cinder gets SUPER pissed, as implied above, and stomps on Jaune's chest, asking if he ever really thought he had a chance against HER. And...I mean...he did. He did. And to his credit while he didn't kick your ass as hard Pyrrha, he didn't INSTANTLY DIE so he's already shown he can probably take you, since you have god powers. He also hit you. If he aimed lower that would of gone through your torso, around the shoulderish area. You'd of at least been crippled. Also does this mean her aura was off? Anyway yeah Cinder's pissed the **** off, and is petulantly angry at Jaune proving she's basically garbage at everything.

    We get to see some of the fights we haven't seen (Renora vs Hazel, Yang vs Merc, though there is predictibly nothing interesting going on with these sadly) during Jaune speechifying about how he's actually trash but if he buys them time dying it's worth it. Don't be like that Jaune, you're the only one here who actually almost won his fight. Cinder says "you think so" and looks over to Weiss, who isn't dead yet despite her aura being gone and Vernal having no reason not to kill her. It's pretty obvious what's going to happen here, but I'll try to be shocked.

    No one even tries to stop Cinder as she casually walks past all the fights to throw a spear through Weiss's back. Rip Weiss. You're not going to die probably because Jaune'll use his generic good boy healing aura power he'll show off next episode to save you, which means people can get more hurt because he can just heal them (genuinely an okay thing, but should be balanced).

    Also Cinder almost ****ing missed. She actually barely hit her, it's way off center from the spine and is more like in her kidneys. Cinder you almost ****ing botched this. This action of course stops all the fights so everyone can have a moment to react to one of our protagonists (other than Yang) FINALLY GETTING ****ING HURT. I'm actually really happy about this. The spear dissolves into ash like the arrow that killed Pyrrha, but Weiss begins to fall before it cuts to black so she's not going to just, dissolve so she's still ALIVE, unlike Pyrrha who was instantly slain. And that's the episode.


    Episode done, blood spilled (mine) and oathed fulfilled (also mine). My thoughts;
    Spoiler: V5C11
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    While I ultimately don't actually have any negative to say directly about this episode beyond having a genuinely interesting topic of conversation about how 1v1 fights can and cannot work and how they should be executed in a situation like this, I don't really feel too positively on this one. It's a good episode enough, and while I don't really care too much about the logistics of the fighting (it could be done better but at the end of the day it's workable, I guess, except for some minor bits) I still think it could of been done better.

    I feel like I'd of preferred to see the fights in more detail, but since these characters are meant to continue to exist past this arc I can see why we didn't get to see the fights in detail so that we could have conclusive ends to them. Because ultimately the twist was that the fight is going to end with Cinder surprise ganking top like a bitch. Which I'm actually really proud of. RT has finally done something it's taken them five ****ing seasons too long to do. Someone got hurt who isn't Yang. I feel like, given the train crash and a number of other things, our heroes should of been bloodied our banged up more often than this, so seeing it take this long for ANYTHING of consequence to happen to anyone is concerning, and always kinda will be to me. It would be nice if everyone gets physically hurt in this battle please, but with Weiss obviously getting the worst of it. So yeah, overall my views on this episode are...mixed. But again. I repeat myself.

    Still though Cinder **** you ALMOST MISSED. GET BETTER AT THIS.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2018-01-07 at 02:30 AM.


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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Spoiler: V5C11
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    well i want to say good riddance but who are we kidding. weis will survive. why you ask?her wound probably cauterized so she is not bleeding. ruby tried to cast time stop but knocked out. probably rest of the gang knocked up in next episode except knight boy so he can archive his semblance( nick named save the queen ) so they fight and blake cleans the bombs from out side then we are kinda back to the grind / angst fest for the remaining season. I hope jauns semblence has a way to seperate her love since he kinda earn it in my book

    while i liked This season i still want to turn all this and previous season to bad milf induced hallucination and continue from before the school attack with girls going different route to solve the mess gonna be happening.
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    Spoiler: V5C11
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    well i want to say good riddance but who are we kidding. weis will survive. why you ask?her wound probably cauterized so she is not bleeding. ruby tried to cast time stop but knocked out. probably rest of the gang knocked up in next episode except knight boy so he can archive his semblance( nick named save the queen ) so they fight and blake cleans the bombs from out side then we are kinda back to the grind / angst fest for the remaining season. I hope jauns semblence has a way to seperate her love since he kinda earn it in my book

    while i liked This season i still want to turn all this and previous season to bad milf induced hallucination and continue from before the school attack with girls going different route to solve the mess gonna be happening.
    A fan of Raven, are you?

    Spoiler: V5C11
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    I keep seeing commentary about how bad RWBY characters are at ambushes and something occurred to me: many tactical ambushes may be ineffective in RWBY due to Aura. Unless Aura has exploitable weak points that drain it faster (no indication thus far), a dagger to the kidneys is as effective as a cut to the arm. Headshots aren't game-enders early in a fight. Since alpha-strike ambushes aren't effective, the purpose of ambushes are to catch your prey in vulnerable situations rather than trying to get sneaky shots in, unless you've got a special effect to use like Tyrian's poison or Ilia's spider faunus henchwoman, but even then Tyrian needed to get past Aura to apply the poison. You'd want to lure them into circumstances where they are unarmed and unguarded, then keep people off-center and guessing. Tyrian's ambush did a pretty good job on that front. This meeting would have been ideal, as well, if Qrow hadn't seen through it. They would have walked in, ready to talk, only to find themselves penned in by superior forces with no means of escape. Qrow's guard was up so they were armed and at full force, but the ambush still had powerhouses in play and no viable means of escape.

    So, yeah, everyone in Remnant outright sucks at sneak attacks, because they are rarely effective. Superior firepower, superior numbers, and superior skill are effective, but superior precision isn't. When you ambush people in RWBY, it's for tactical advantage, not a one-hit kill.

    Not a perfect theory, I know. Emerald was pretty effective with sneak attacks back in the tournament, after all. But Aura is enough of a game-changer that it would definitely shift the risk-reward value of various tactics.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Responding to specifically to Calemyr and tactical thinking.
    Spoiler: V5C11
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    If you wanted to do a specific ambush with team Raven + Team CME then this would how you would do it.

    1) We know that Salem and the White Fang were already setting up explosives all around Haven Academy.

    2) As part of the plan, Leo should walk Ruby and company into a building surrounded by explosives, then lock the door behind him.

    3) Raven then opens up a portal for her and Leo.

    4) Portal closes, the bomb goes off, everyone of Ruby and company dies.

    5) Successful Ambush.

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    Raven being the Spring Maiden works for me in that it helps to better justify her actions up to this point. It always seemed somewhat odd, previously, that she was making plans dictating what Vernal - who was presumably the Maiden - would do. The level of deference was odd. It also helps explain Raven's confidence in her ability to negotiate some sort of separate peace between Salem and her tribe - as the Spring Maiden, with the Relic, she'd have enough power to do that without depending on anyone else. Her self-centered perspective just makes more sense on a gut level now.

    I also like how they included Raven's clear intention to double-cross Cinder and draw-cut her from behind as she walked forward to ambush Vernal, only to have that not work because of Cinder's stretch-Grim arm trick.

    Of course, now we have Cinder vs. Raven one-on-one in the vault, which is kind of pointless given that Raven can't kill Cinder at this point in the story. I assume they're just going to go a few rounds until someone, probably Yang, intervenes from above.

    I am hopeful that, given how the mass melee has developed, that Emerald and Mercury are going down here. Whether dead or captured or something else, it's time to wrap them up.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

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    I'm expecting Raven to bite it, as she's basically served her narrative purpose:
    Either Cinder steals the Maiden powers for herself or they go to Yang, tactical retreat happens to protect the Relic but not until after driving out theWhite Fang, maybe Ruby forces team Cinder to retreat either way.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2018-01-08 at 12:28 AM.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Spoiler: V5C12
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    I'm expecting Raven to bite it, as she's basically served her narrative purpose:
    Either Cinder steals the Maiden powers for herself or they go to Yang, tactical retreat happens to protect the Relic but not until after driving out theWhite Fang, maybe Ruby forces team Cinder to retreat either way.
    Spoiler: V5C12 A tale of two maidens
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    Those two options do seem likely. I donít think Cinder being defeated, let alone killed, is where they are going to take this given how much she has been built up over the five seasons. I think the real question is what is going to become of her.

    The two options you give for where maiden powers go really are the only options. Those options imply a very different route for the plot:

    Option 1 Raven dies. Cinder acquires the maiden power. Most likely the fight ends by Cinder killing Raven then acquiring a the power of a second maiden for herself. This suggests Cinder will continue to try to hunt down maidens or acquire more power. This may or may not be what Salemís plan has been for Cinder all along or Cinderís own agenda. In either case, Cinder continues to be built up as RWBYs nemesis. Despite the platforms in Season 4, a second maidenís power cements Cinder place as the Darth Vader of this franchise. Like Darth Vader, that means her relationship with Salem will be questionable and a source of tension straight up through to the end.

    Option 2 Raven dies. Yang acquires the maiden power. Yang seems to be the one designated to go down and interrupt the Raven/Cinder battle, this presents the opportunity for Raven to die in a way that Yang inherits her power.

    In many ways, this would be a crazy outcome. Yes, RWBY do seem to have the whole four season theme down, and Yang fits for spring. However, it is difficult to see it happening.

    How Raven can avoid Cinderís power sucking grimm-arm absent a swift suicide? Why would Raven do such a 180 act of defiance against Salem to help Ozpin after everything we learned about her?

    Whatís more, maiden powers would really power up Yang, and it hasnít been given to us that the heroes need it. With that power, the heroes are set up for a decisive victory at Haven, Cinderís group loses the edge they have and can be fought on equal terms next time. While this would be a happy conclusion for our heroes, its just one Iím not sure can be pulled off.

    Moreover, it creates this magical girl show kind of expectation that EVERY member of team RWBY will inherit maiden powers. For that to actually happen requires a lot of things to break their way, including Cinderís death sometime before we see Salemís end game. That death could be sooner rather than later. I donít think any of that works well compared to continuing to build Cinder up after theyíve invested so much into her.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-08 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Spoiler box changed
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    A fan of Raven, are you?
    funny that you think mate. I have no problem with Raven as long as she acts properly to her shadow guardian role. okay she was a b*tch but at least she tries to play the long game and i like to see how she grows in next few chapters so her crash and burn gives better taste.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: V5C12 A tale of two maidens
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    Whatís more, maiden powers would really power up Yang, and it hasnít been given to us that the heroes need it. With that power, the heroes are set up for a decisive victory at Haven, Cinderís group loses the edge they have and can be fought on equal terms next time. While this would be a happy conclusion for our heroes, its just one Iím not sure can be pulled off.

    Moreover, it creates this magical girl show kind of expectation that EVERY member of team RWBY will inherit maiden powers. For that to actually happen requires a lot of things to break their way, including Cinderís death sometime before we see Salemís end game. That death could be sooner rather than later. I donít think any of that works well compared to continuing to build Cinder up after theyíve invested so much into her.
    Spoiler: v5c12
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    Count me on the list of people who don't want Maiden powers for any of Team RWBY's members. Just...no, please don't do that.

    I feel like Raven can sever Cinder's Grim-arm and thereby prevent the Spring Maiden's power from being absorbed. I'd rather see the Spring Maiden's power end up with Vernal (she's not dead yet, so why not, would give a chance to do something with that character) or even Nora rather than with Yang. Heck drop the power on someone completely random among the Haven students or Blake's faunus cavalry if you have too.

    If Cinder does end up as Double-Maiden, I want that to make her doubly vulnerable to Ruby's Silver Eyes - that feels like the way it should work.
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    Spoiler: Speculation based on V5C12
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    Honestly, I'm expecting that Cinder will eventually get all of the Maidens' powers, but then be taken down by team RWBY in such a way as to make it certain that they're in her last thoughts so that they get the most apropriate Maiden's powers as an Upgrade in either the Mid-Season upgrade of the last Volume or in the climax of the penultimate season.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Spoiler: Speculation based on V5C12
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    Honestly, I'm expecting that Cinder will eventually get all of the Maidens' powers, but then be taken down by team RWBY in such a way as to make it certain that they're in her last thoughts so that they get the most apropriate Maiden's powers as an Upgrade in either the Mid-Season upgrade of the last Volume or in the climax of the penultimate season.
    works for me but i prefer ruby connecting speed force and run back as my pic of lets screw the plot since there is good chance ruby might pull azure grimore from out of air. which throws common sense to orbit.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Spoiler: v5c12
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    If Cinder does end up as Double-Maiden, I want that to make her doubly vulnerable to Ruby's Silver Eyes - that feels like the way it should work.
    Spoiler: V5C12 Magic and Grimm-powers
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    From what weíve seen, it appears that Cinder is more vulnerable to Ruby because sheís grimmified her body, not because she has maiden powers. Rubyís silver eye flash didnít affect Raven, Oscar, Qrow...all of whom have magic and one of whom is a maiden. Only Cinder collapsed, clutching her grimm-arm!

    More maiden powers is exactly that...Cinder gets lightning to add to her fiery arensal, theyíll say sheís powered up. We will be lucky if that actually feel that power-up is demonstrated along the lines.
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    So... Raven now opens a portal, all the good guys get in and they overpower and kill Cinder, right?

    I am sure this won't happen for one reason or another, but they better have a really good explaination.

    I guess there's the hulk guy, but he only cares about Ozpin, so everyone else could just go while Ozpin fights him (he can even afford to die if need be)

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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    Spoiler: s5ep12
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    So... Raven now opens a portal, all the good guys get in and they overpower and kill Cinder, right?

    I am sure this won't happen for one reason or another, but they better have a really good explaination.

    I guess there's the hulk guy, but he only cares about Ozpin, so everyone else could just go while Ozpin fights him (he can even afford to die if need be)

    Spoiler: V5CH12
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    How's they have no reason to go through that portal work as a reason?

    Last they saw Raven, she was working with Cinder and sicced one of her commanders on the good guys. Aka, not on their side.

    Also why would Raven let them help? That gets in the way of the whole 'take the relic for myself to stave off Salem' plan cause they aren't letting her take it.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: 1v1 me bro
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    So, as a writer and generally just a consumer of the series this series is based on, the idea of a 1v1 solo fight is basically intrinsic to the genre. It's weird not to have it be a thing, and when fights overlap in ways it's a fun interesting twist on a formula, and can lead to some fun stuff (One Piece has some great examples of this as an example). That being said, I can get why people are upset about this given they're ALL IN THE SAME ****ING ROOM. That, plus the fact that RWBY is kind of a series that built itself on being more team fight oriented, can definitely make this feel weirdly forced. And if you don't like that, if you find that weird, that's fine. You're correct. As a writer you can run into situations where you don't want the fights to overlap but you do want them in the same space physically, and that's a difficult situation to be in. But the trick is to find a way to fix that. For one, this is a huge mansion type place. Have it start here, but have the villains (most of whom want to kill a specific person in this scenario, which is super convienant for the story writing here!) force them to separate into different rooms so it can be a more reasonable 1v1 style scenario. Make it part of the good guys winning that they're trying to GET to the center room, or to a specific friend to help them (or a specific enemy to kill, but that's more complicated). It's an interesting thing to think about, especially if writing is a thing you want to do.

    That said this scene runs into a bit of a snag, especially having it all take place in the same huge location. Cinder has literally no reason what so ever to stay in her fight, and nothing is stopping her. Cinder would, should, and COULD just ignore Jaune entirely and walk towards Ruby and at best force a 2v1. Meanwhile, Emerald's character is that of a pretty craven coward, why is she fighting THE MAIN CHARACTER? Why did she decide to THAT?
    1v1 duels is a feature of the genre and your take on it is rather level headed.

    Others have been wholly negative about the way these fights played out but the alternative: fast moving formations and tight team attacks, is pretty much impossible to show for a 15-person(!) fight. Chapter 11 turns out to be 4 episodes from the end (14 episodes in all!) so the physically exhausted animators (as they appear on the other Rooster Teeth live shows for sponsors) weren't going to exhaust themselves all on this one fight.

    Your main criticism of the dueling is how they break out into duels. I don't see what you offer as a solution to the problem though. The notion of having to break up into one to a room is a contrived situation usually brought about in some sort of game or puzzle. I don't see how this can be brought about here in a way that feels natural.

    Duels simply are not a natural way to fight, but action and anime has long tried to convince us it is. In our case, what motivated the fighters to break off into duels was Juane's sudden charge at Cinder. They didn't pretend this was tactically sound. Cinder couldn't help but taunt and Juane couldn't help but take the bait. At that point Ruby was blocked by Emerald, Yang by Mercury, and the rest just started looking for opponents.

    I think that logic works about as well as most, including the typical "and then the fighters break out into duels."

    There's a lot to challenge the logic of why each character did what, but among them I really don't see why Emerald wouldn't fight Ruby. I'm pretty sure Emerald's designation as a coward is your analysis and I can't remember what motivates it.

    Emerald was a sneaky thief, she was a frightened girl before Cinder got to her, and she even still that likes to hide behind illusions now. I just don't see why we should think she is still a coward now and not simply employing misdirection because its a solid tactic that works.

    In any case Ruby gives the appearance of being the softer target and someone had to stop her from getting to Cinder.

    Why Cinder choosing Juane and continued taunting him is a bigger issue, but its completely consistent with her personality. I can see why Cinder shouldn't fight Ruby directly because Ruby is the one person that can instantly do extreme damage to her, and it happened once already!
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-08 at 03:38 PM.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Reddish Mage are you trying to do a spoiler block, or are you figuring you do not need to for it is monday and thus Vol 5 Episode 11 stuff need not be spoiler anymore but Vol 5 Episode 12 stuff still need to be spoiler ed?

    I ask for I want to respond, but figure you should figure out what style you want to do before we get lost in a nested thread thingy.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: 1v1 me bro
    Show
    So, as a writer and generally just a consumer of the series this series is based on, the idea of a 1v1 solo fight is basically intrinsic to the genre. It's weird not to have it be a thing, and when fights overlap in ways it's a fun interesting twist on a formula, and can lead to some fun stuff (One Piece has some great examples of this as an example). That being said, I can get why people are upset about this given they're ALL IN THE SAME ****ING ROOM. That, plus the fact that RWBY is kind of a series that built itself on being more team fight oriented, can definitely make this feel weirdly forced. And if you don't like that, if you find that weird, that's fine. You're correct. As a writer you can run into situations where you don't want the fights to overlap but you do want them in the same space physically, and that's a difficult situation to be in. But the trick is to find a way to fix that. For one, this is a huge mansion type place. Have it start here, but have the villains (most of whom want to kill a specific person in this scenario, which is super convienant for the story writing here!) force them to separate into different rooms so it can be a more reasonable 1v1 style scenario. Make it part of the good guys winning that they're trying to GET to the center room, or to a specific friend to help them (or a specific enemy to kill, but that's more complicated). It's an interesting thing to think about, especially if writing is a thing you want to do.

    That said this scene runs into a bit of a snag, especially having it all take place in the same huge location. Cinder has literally no reason what so ever to stay in her fight, and nothing is stopping her. Cinder would, should, and COULD just ignore Jaune entirely and walk towards Ruby and at best force a 2v1. Meanwhile, Emerald's character is that of a pretty craven coward, why is she fighting THE MAIN CHARACTER? Why did she decide to THAT? Why not use her trick powers to go mess with...I don't know, Nora and Ren, the two people who are without a fight entirely in this group who have had the least screen time of the principle characters of this arc and also are probably the weakest given all other options. Also, why are Raven and Vernal even fighting at all. Vernal I sort of get since the big twist is going to be that she leaves to join Salem for Raven's sake, but as far as Raven is concerned they're not ACTUALLY here to help, they're here to get the Relic and **** off. Why are they fighting at all? Is Raven just that upset at being shot at? I mean that's fair, she's got a hair trigger like her daughter, but it feels weird to me. Vernal at least seems to be the one least into it, since she just wants to kill her a rich girl (I get it's her character trait but why are all of Weiss's fights against people who have "I want to see a Schnee bleed" people?). So ultimately this scene is workable but is full of actual holes that bother me from a writing perspective. Ren and Nora fighting Hazel is interesting but otherwise, as said by the characters in universe, basically just because they have to.
    Man you left a lot to cover this time!

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    Before covering the One vs. One stuff, the main part of my response, going to cover the other parts.

    Emerald's decision makes a lot of sense once you consider that Emerald hasn't been displayed as a coward but she's picked a fight with Ruby to stop the exact thing you also asked. That being Cinder from fighting Ruby which, based off their last encounter, Emerald has every reason to suspect that Ruby will use weird eye powers to destroy her master. Because the bad guys don't know that it was basically a fluke that Ruby managed to do that the first time and she can't control it. So she chose to fight Ruby to keep her off Cinder's fight.

    Cinder's fight makes sense as well...though this comes with a little bit of future knowledge but Cinder doesn't want to fight Ruby..she wants to kill/hurt Ruby. If Emerald is able to subdue her so Cinder can get the last blow, that's just fine by Cinder.

    As for why Raven and Vernal are fighting, they don't know where the Vault is yet. Leo hasn't shown anyone where it is just yet so they can't snag the relic and bugger off yet so they might as well contribute to the fight.

    On to the One vs. One question...I don't think Ruby has established itself as more of a team fighting scenario because when it has come down to truly important fights, they've almost always been one on one or very close to. Blake and Sun both fought Roman but not never really at the same time. On the train, RWBY kept getting forced to leave someone behind so they could keep going for the cabin to stop the train, but it did break down into one on one fights. Even in the food fight, we got individual characters pairing off. The tournament had a duos round but aside from Mercury 1 v 2ing Coco and Yatsuhashi, that broke down into individual fights as well.

    Most of the time there have been team fights, true team fights, its usually been against either giant grim (Deathstalker/Nevermore, Nuckaleave, the Paladin) or against hordes of mooks (weak Grim, parts of the Fall of Beacon), its not usually against other people. Mostly restricted to the opening fight of the Vytal Tournmanet if we're being honest.

    And there IS a very good reason for that, multi-person battles where everyone is interacting with everyone is a very difficult thing to do at all, let alone well and you often accidentally end up doing a series of one vs. one's anyway. Its also just as difficult to have that fight tell a story or have any kind of fight psychology when its a group of people vs. another group of people. Its the kind of skill that I'm not sure RT still possesses with the passing of Monty Oum..They have been able to do multiple people against a single large/dangerous target and they've done it well enough to be entertaining but that is honestly quite a bit easier because the story is often as simple as 'injure/incapacitate the enemy enough to finish them off'.

    However there's a bigger reason that everything is breaking into one on one's...and that's because as weird as it sounds the fights are not the focus right now. RT is still trying to tell a story with most of these individual encounters and from Season 4 onward they've kind of fallen into the anime trap of stopping a fight to talk and have emotional moments. Sometimes this works...The Fall of Beacon managed the balance really well and the fight against the Nuckaleeve did as well because even though the attention was on Ren and Nora, we could still hear and sometimes see that the rest of the fight was still going on. The Nuckaleeve didn't politely pause just because Ren needed some emotional support. It wasn't the best solution but it wasn't the worse either. I would make the argument that RWBY hasn't been about the fights since the end of Volume 3 and would point to the large amount of time between big action set pieces or the shift to more story-telling driven fights as the biggest indicator of that. More often than not in RWBY it feels like the fight is the vehicle they are using to get to the pay off as opposed to the pay off itself and when the fight IS the payoff, it tends to stand out as being better than normal. Take Tyrian vs. RNJR and Qrow. Those two fights were the pay off to the entire build of Tyrian searching for them...not whatever plot details he might reveal (he doesn't actually reveal any) its the fight itself and its a good fight.

    But right now? Right now the fights aren't the focus its the reasons behind them or the stories they are furthering. Yeah, Jaune vs. Cinder isn't going to win any awards for 'Top 10 RWBY fights' because its not about the fight..its about Jaune finally confronting the person that is the source of his pain and Cinder's complete nonchalance about the entire thing. Same with all of the fights we really get to see except, ironically, the fight between Weiss and Vernal which is a fight for the sake of a fight (like Ren and Nora vs. Hazel) but we actually get to see it. And, what do you know, its the best of the bunch. RWBY hasn't had a fight for the sake of a fight since...The Sea Dragon Grimm and while that fight was...not good it wasn't because of lack of effort put into it..you can tell it was supposed to be a tense and engaging battle that was ultimately pointless (aside from very light world-building).

    And when it comes to being able to tell a story while doing a fight, one v one is the best format for it and I can't begrudge them for using them. What I do kind of hold against them is the transitions between the fight which RWBY usually does a better job of. Things like Ruby deflecting the bullet and it whizzing past Weiss is what I'm talking about. It directly leads you from the fight between Ruby and Emerald to Weiss and Vernal, this chapter could have used a lot more clever transitions between the fighters but didn't have them.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    1v1 duels is a feature of the genre and your take on it is rather level headed.

    Others have been wholly negative about the way these fights played out but the alternative: fast moving formations and tight team attacks, is pretty much impossible to show for a 15-person(!) fight. Chapter 11 turns out to be 4 episodes from the end (14 episodes in all!) so the physically exhausted animators (as they appear on the other Rooster Teeth live shows for sponsors) weren't going to exhaust themselves all on this one fight.

    Your main criticism of the dueling is how they break out into duels. I don't see what you offer as a solution to the problem though. The notion of having to break up into one to a room is a contrived situation usually brought about in some sort of game or puzzle. I don't see how this can be brought about here in a way that feels natural.

    Duels simply are not a natural way to fight, but action and anime has long tried to convince us it is. In our case, what motivated the fighters to break off into duels was Juane's sudden charge at Cinder. They didn't pretend this was tactically sound. Cinder couldn't help but taunt and Juane couldn't help but take the bait. At that point Ruby was blocked by Emerald, Yang by Mercury, and the rest just started looking for opponents.

    I think that logic works about as well as most, including the typical "and then the fighters break out into duels."

    There's a lot to challenge the logic of why each character did what, but among them I really don't see why Emerald wouldn't fight Ruby. I'm pretty sure Emerald's designation as a coward is your analysis and I can't remember what motivates it.

    Emerald was a sneaky thief, she was a frightened girl before Cinder got to her, and she even still that likes to hide behind illusions now. I just don't see why we should think she is still a coward now and not simply employing misdirection because its a solid tactic that works.

    In any case Ruby gives the appearance of being the softer target and someone had to stop her from getting to Cinder.

    Why Cinder choosing Juane and continued taunting him is a bigger issue, but its completely consistent with her personality. I can see why Cinder shouldn't fight Ruby directly because Ruby is the one person that can instantly do extreme damage to her, and it happened once already!


    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Man you left a lot to cover this time!

    Spoiler: One vs. One
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    Before covering the One vs. One stuff, the main part of my response, going to cover the other parts.

    Emerald's decision makes a lot of sense once you consider that Emerald hasn't been displayed as a coward but she's picked a fight with Ruby to stop the exact thing you also asked. That being Cinder from fighting Ruby which, based off their last encounter, Emerald has every reason to suspect that Ruby will use weird eye powers to destroy her master. Because the bad guys don't know that it was basically a fluke that Ruby managed to do that the first time and she can't control it. So she chose to fight Ruby to keep her off Cinder's fight.

    Cinder's fight makes sense as well...though this comes with a little bit of future knowledge but Cinder doesn't want to fight Ruby..she wants to kill/hurt Ruby. If Emerald is able to subdue her so Cinder can get the last blow, that's just fine by Cinder.

    As for why Raven and Vernal are fighting, they don't know where the Vault is yet. Leo hasn't shown anyone where it is just yet so they can't snag the relic and bugger off yet so they might as well contribute to the fight.

    On to the One vs. One question...I don't think Ruby has established itself as more of a team fighting scenario because when it has come down to truly important fights, they've almost always been one on one or very close to. Blake and Sun both fought Roman but not never really at the same time. On the train, RWBY kept getting forced to leave someone behind so they could keep going for the cabin to stop the train, but it did break down into one on one fights. Even in the food fight, we got individual characters pairing off. The tournament had a duos round but aside from Mercury 1 v 2ing Coco and Yatsuhashi, that broke down into individual fights as well.

    Most of the time there have been team fights, true team fights, its usually been against either giant grim (Deathstalker/Nevermore, Nuckaleave, the Paladin) or against hordes of mooks (weak Grim, parts of the Fall of Beacon), its not usually against other people. Mostly restricted to the opening fight of the Vytal Tournmanet if we're being honest.

    And there IS a very good reason for that, multi-person battles where everyone is interacting with everyone is a very difficult thing to do at all, let alone well and you often accidentally end up doing a series of one vs. one's anyway. Its also just as difficult to have that fight tell a story or have any kind of fight psychology when its a group of people vs. another group of people. Its the kind of skill that I'm not sure RT still possesses with the passing of Monty Oum..They have been able to do multiple people against a single large/dangerous target and they've done it well enough to be entertaining but that is honestly quite a bit easier because the story is often as simple as 'injure/incapacitate the enemy enough to finish them off'.

    However there's a bigger reason that everything is breaking into one on one's...and that's because as weird as it sounds the fights are not the focus right now. RT is still trying to tell a story with most of these individual encounters and from Season 4 onward they've kind of fallen into the anime trap of stopping a fight to talk and have emotional moments. Sometimes this works...The Fall of Beacon managed the balance really well and the fight against the Nuckaleeve did as well because even though the attention was on Ren and Nora, we could still hear and sometimes see that the rest of the fight was still going on. The Nuckaleeve didn't politely pause just because Ren needed some emotional support. It wasn't the best solution but it wasn't the worse either. I would make the argument that RWBY hasn't been about the fights since the end of Volume 3 and would point to the large amount of time between big action set pieces or the shift to more story-telling driven fights as the biggest indicator of that. More often than not in RWBY it feels like the fight is the vehicle they are using to get to the pay off as opposed to the pay off itself and when the fight IS the payoff, it tends to stand out as being better than normal. Take Tyrian vs. RNJR and Qrow. Those two fights were the pay off to the entire build of Tyrian searching for them...not whatever plot details he might reveal (he doesn't actually reveal any) its the fight itself and its a good fight.

    But right now? Right now the fights aren't the focus its the reasons behind them or the stories they are furthering. Yeah, Jaune vs. Cinder isn't going to win any awards for 'Top 10 RWBY fights' because its not about the fight..its about Jaune finally confronting the person that is the source of his pain and Cinder's complete nonchalance about the entire thing. Same with all of the fights we really get to see except, ironically, the fight between Weiss and Vernal which is a fight for the sake of a fight (like Ren and Nora vs. Hazel) but we actually get to see it. And, what do you know, its the best of the bunch. RWBY hasn't had a fight for the sake of a fight since...The Sea Dragon Grimm and while that fight was...not good it wasn't because of lack of effort put into it..you can tell it was supposed to be a tense and engaging battle that was ultimately pointless (aside from very light world-building).

    And when it comes to being able to tell a story while doing a fight, one v one is the best format for it and I can't begrudge them for using them. What I do kind of hold against them is the transitions between the fight which RWBY usually does a better job of. Things like Ruby deflecting the bullet and it whizzing past Weiss is what I'm talking about. It directly leads you from the fight between Ruby and Emerald to Weiss and Vernal, this chapter could have used a lot more clever transitions between the fighters but didn't have them.
    Fair points all around. Ultimately yes 1v1 fights are contrived in nature, but that's one of the hand waved things you can kind of accept, I feel. Another solution to them breaking out into their fights is say, having Raven use her portal to send people around (though given how her powers work this would basically just mean "teleporting some people to Vernal). Also, since this is meant to be an ambush (and what feels like a traditional ambush) they could do something to break up the teams into specific ways that way. For instance maybe Cinder appears and peels Jaune and Ruby off to fight somewhere else, Raven and Qrowe fly off to fight for reasons that they would (Qrowe doesn't want his bad luck splashing to other people as an example so he forces the fight to go outside) and so on. There are options, they just took none of them.

    I'll admit my read on Emerald is probably wrong. She's meant to be a sneak-thief who got pulled into this group. Her power is trickery and misdirection, which can be utilized for fighting but clearly is not intended due to how straining it is on her. She's the only one to express any sort of fear to all the crazy Grimm **** that goes around and the only one to voice concerns. Someone mentioned a reason for why she would fight Ruby (she's a child) but given what Ruby did to Cinder I feel like she'd be more inclined to be on the opposite end of the planet from her. It still feels a little suspect to me, but coming to Cinder's aid is a good a motivation as any. It's still funny that the weak link on team bad guy (not counting Leo he's so weak as to not even matter) chose to fight the protagonist of the series. Cinder being okay with fighting Jaune makes sense if we assume her to be sadistic, but given her focus on Ruby it does feel like she should be more trying to get him out of the way. Especially given her eyeball powers can turn Cinder off entirely, wanting to "finish her off" seems like a poor choice. Hell if I was Cinder I'd AVOID endangering her friends, knowing that's the trigger for her eyeballs.

    I basically just forgot that they don't know where the vault is yet. That's on me. Also yeah, these fights are way more focused on advancing the story. And that's good! Please do advance the story, try and do writing and make it good, I approve of that. But still this is an action series give us some fighting. I definitely get what Reddish mentioned about the team being overworked though, that's a danger. Also I'm glad we can agree that having cool transitions to each fight is a visual good thing that they should of done more of.


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  22. - Top - End - #262
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Fair points all around. Ultimately yes 1v1 fights are contrived in nature, but that's one of the hand waved things you can kind of accept, I feel. Another solution to them breaking out into their fights is say, having Raven use her portal to send people around (though given how her powers work this would basically just mean "teleporting some people to Vernal). Also, since this is meant to be an ambush (and what feels like a traditional ambush) they could do something to break up the teams into specific ways that way. For instance maybe Cinder appears and peels Jaune and Ruby off to fight somewhere else, Raven and Qrowe fly off to fight for reasons that they would (Qrowe doesn't want his bad luck splashing to other people as an example so he forces the fight to go outside) and so on. There are options, they just took none of them.
    Yeah, of all the hand waves I have the least trouble with, things breaking down into one on one fights is it just because of how much easier it is on a small team and the how much easier it makes the story-telling. Granted, there are ways they could have broken them but those might have honestly felt just as contrived and we won't know because we don't know how they would have done it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I'll admit my read on Emerald is probably wrong. She's meant to be a sneak-thief who got pulled into this group. Her power is trickery and misdirection, which can be utilized for fighting but clearly is not intended due to how straining it is on her. She's the only one to express any sort of fear to all the crazy Grimm **** that goes around and the only one to voice concerns. Someone mentioned a reason for why she would fight Ruby (she's a child) but given what Ruby did to Cinder I feel like she'd be more inclined to be on the opposite end of the planet from her. It still feels a little suspect to me, but coming to Cinder's aid is a good a motivation as any. It's still funny that the weak link on team bad guy (not counting Leo he's so weak as to not even matter) chose to fight the protagonist of the series. Cinder being okay with fighting Jaune makes sense if we assume her to be sadistic, but given her focus on Ruby it does feel like she should be more trying to get him out of the way. Especially given her eyeball powers can turn Cinder off entirely, wanting to "finish her off" seems like a poor choice. Hell if I was Cinder I'd AVOID endangering her friends, knowing that's the trigger for her eyeballs.
    Does Cinder know that's the trigger for Ruby's eyeballs? Cinder's never actually paying attention to Ruby when it happens, which is kind of funny because I can see Cinder ascribing the trigger for the Silver Eyes to be something else just because she can't imagine caring about someone else enough for that to trigger a power. If Cinder had the Silver Eyes, I doubt they'd ever awaken.

    That said, Emerald isn't much of a weak link on Team Bad Guy but yeah..she's definitely the one most likely to turn good or die doing so and has clear reservations about...well..everything Salem, but I never got the impression she was a coward if that makes any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I basically just forgot that they don't know where the vault is yet. That's on me. Also yeah, these fights are way more focused on advancing the story. And that's good! Please do advance the story, try and do writing and make it good, I approve of that. But still this is an action series give us some fighting. I definitely get what Reddish mentioned about the team being overworked though, that's a danger. Also I'm glad we can agree that having cool transitions to each fight is a visual good thing that they should of done more of.
    To be honest, I forgot it too until its brought up so no worries there.

    But yeah..It just kind of came to me that RWBY has slowly been making a transition away from being a spectacle fighting show the past two volumes where the fight isn't the pay off anymore (usually) and that is not a bad thing on its own. It comes down to if you prefer RT's writing (I enjoy it) and how badly you hanker for RWBY style fighting cause they are doing a better job of building to the fewer important fights they do have to if this change bothers you or not. I'm undecided right now because sometimes the fights under the new team are pretty great (Tyrion/Qrow, Weiss/Vernal) and sometimes they are...not good (the Sea Dragon Grimm).

    Yeah though, I do wish they would do cool transitions between each fight more because that does a lot for 'hiding' the fact fights are glorified one on one's and its just a cool stylistic touch.

    I don't know if the team is over-worked but, if they are, I hope they get a chance to breath at a certain point.
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  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Another solution to them breaking out into their fights is say, having Raven use her portal to send people around (though given how her powers work this would basically just mean "teleporting some people to Vernal). Also, since this is meant to be an ambush (and what feels like a traditional ambush) they could do something to break up the teams into specific ways that way. For instance maybe Cinder appears and peels Jaune and Ruby off to fight somewhere else, Raven and Qrowe fly off to fight for reasons that they would (Qrowe doesn't want his bad luck splashing to other people as an example so he forces the fight to go outside) and so on. There are options, they just took none of them.
    Raven hasnít proven to be able to use portals offensively, and if she could, the question would arise why she doesnít portal them to prison or a kill room instead of a convenient sparing arena. Also, if the bad guys ambush and are capable of dragging off people by normal means only to duel like equals, then this further highlights how everyone (not just Cinder) is playing with their kill.

    Moreover the whole idea of breaking the team up into separate areas ignores all the plot stuff they want to happen all in one room. Everything happens in a big room to facilitate various the interactions that are going on. Cinder fights Juane but strikes down Weiss. People react to whatís going on in the other fights. Thereís story reasons, and this facilitates further interactions. All this stuff is important for episode 12 stuff too.

    RT did take an option to set up the fights and rationalize the breakdown into duels. Raven brings the enemy out, who surround the team and then Juane charges ahead followed by Ruby and Yang, causing whatever Qrow wanted to do to be thrown out the window.

    They could have chosen to use some other mechanism, but if it doesnít keep everyone in the same room, important stuff cannot happen. Like Weiss going down in front of Juane and...lots other stuff I cannot say yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    She's the only one to express any sort of fear to all the crazy Grimm **** that goes around and the only one to voice concerns. Someone mentioned a reason for why she would fight Ruby (she's a child) but given what Ruby did to Cinder I feel like she'd be more inclined to be on the opposite end of the planet from her. It still feels a little suspect to me, but coming to Cinder's aid is a good a motivation as any. It's still funny that the weak link on team bad guy (not counting Leo he's so weak as to not even matter) chose to fight the protagonist of the series.
    Emeralds power is a perfect combat power, and her illusions are not draining unless she tries to make multiple people see stuff at once. If Emerald was a coward, as an unattached loner it she should simply run to the other end of the planet from Cinder and Salem. Everyone has made it quite clear Salem is the most scary being in this universe. Emerald makes it clear she is afraid of the grimm but doesnít let it phase her. Emerald was enticed by Cinderís offer for power, not a promise of protection. Also, I see Mercury as the one most likely to screw up, Emerald is the one who would most likely take the opportunity to one up him.

    One final point, I think Emerald has every reason to think she way outlevels Ruby.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Cinder being okay with fighting Jaune makes sense if we assume her to be sadistic, but given her focus on Ruby it does feel like she should be more trying to get him out of the way. Especially given her eyeball powers can turn Cinder off entirely, wanting to "finish her off" seems like a poor choice. Hell if I was Cinder I'd AVOID endangering her friends, knowing that's the trigger for her eyeballs.
    We donít have to assume Cinder is sadistic. We see her sadism early on. Her entire exchange with Torchwick at the beginning of the volume she seems to relish the fact that Torchwick fears and is uncomfortable around her. She then takes great satisfaction in killing Amber, and Pyrrha. Most recently she proudly declares how many people her team is able to kill while relishing how much it hurts everyone, which is what triggers Juane.

    Fighting Juane, the way she is toying with him the entire time, is simply the final nail in the sadist coffin iron maiden.

    Cinder also doesnít know what triggers Rubyís eyes, as Callos mentions. I also think you are ascribing too much empathy and to Cinder to suggest she ever cared to understand what makes Ruby tick. Raven may know that Ruby is soft hearted, cares about her friends, and even given to bleeding heart letís get along speeches, but Cinder doesnít.

    Nevertheless, one could read the way she fights Juane and ignoring everything else is unhinged, and I think there is something screwy with Cinderís personality. Watts protests Cinderís plan from the beginning. For Cinder to risk the plan further by indulging in the middle of battle tells us how overconfident she is. It also explains why...oops I nearly let something out.

    Spoiler: V5C12
    Show
    Cinder is rational enough to realize the danger and move to the vault immediately when she learns Ozpin is there. However, she doesnít not show any great urgency in doing so.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I definitely get what Reddish mentioned about the team being overworked though, that's a danger. Also I'm glad we can agree that having cool transitions to each fight is a visual good thing that they should of done more of.
    Its actually pretty amazing what theyíve been doing with RWBY given it is still a webshow. Animation is pretty expensive and RWBYís animation is a lot more detailed and motion rich than almost any anime. The decision to steadily upgrade the animation over the last three volumes is at the expense of more fight scenes and doing more in the fight scenes. Each time they upgrade the characters and everything else it makes fighting harder to animate (since there is so much more detail to animate). The cool transitions Iíd like to see, such as doing something with a 3-D camera zooming and panning over all the fights as they continue to take place, would be a beast to do.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2018-01-08 at 11:37 PM. Reason: One final point
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Raven hasnít proven to be able to use portals offensively, and if she could, the question would arise why she doesnít portal them to prison or a kill room instead of a convenient sparing arena. Also, if the bad guys ambush and are capable of dragging off people by normal means only to duel like equals, then this further highlights how everyone (not just Cinder) is playing with their kill.

    Moreover the whole idea of breaking the team up into separate areas ignores all the plot stuff they want to happen all in one room. Everything happens in a big room to facilitate various the interactions that are going on. Cinder fights Juane but strikes down Weiss. People react to whatís going on in the other fights. Thereís story reasons, and this facilitates further interactions. All this stuff is important for episode 12 stuff too.

    RT did take an option to set up the fights and rationalize the breakdown into duels. Raven brings the enemy out, who surround the team and then Juane charges ahead followed by Ruby and Yang, causing whatever Qrow wanted to do to be thrown out the window.

    They could have chosen to use some other mechanism, but if it doesnít keep everyone in the same room, important stuff cannot happen. Like Weiss going down in front of Juane and...lots other stuff I cannot say yet.

    Emeralds power is a perfect combat power, and her illusions are not draining unless she tries to make multiple people see stuff at once. If Emerald was a coward, as an unattached loner it she should simply run to the other end of the planet from Cinder and Salem. Everyone has made it quite clear Salem is the most scary being in this universe. Emerald makes it clear she is afraid of the grimm but doesnít let it phase her. Emerald was enticed by Cinderís offer for power, not a promise of protection. Also, I see Mercury as the one most likely to screw up, Emerald is the one who would most likely take the opportunity to one up him.

    We donít have to assume Cinder is sadistic. We see her sadism early on. Her entire exchange with Torchwick at the beginning of the volume she seems to relish the fact that Torchwick fears and is uncomfortable around her. She then takes great satisfaction in killing Amber, and Pyrrha. Most recently she proudly declares how many people her team is able to kill while relishing how much it hurts everyone, which is what triggers Juane.

    Fighting Juane, the way she is toying with him the entire time, is simply the final nail in the sadist coffin iron maiden.

    Cinder also doesnít know what triggers Rubyís eyes, as Callos mentions. I also think you are ascribing too much empathy and to Cinder to suggest she ever cared to understand what makes Ruby tick. Raven may know that Ruby is soft hearted, cares about her friends, and even given to bleeding heart letís get along speeches, but Cinder doesnít.

    Nevertheless, one could read the way she fights Juane and ignoring everything else is unhinged, and I think there is something screwy with Cinderís personality. Watts protests Cinderís plan from the beginning. For Cinder to risk the plan further by indulging in the middle of battle tells us how overconfident she is. It also explains why...oops I nearly let something out.

    Spoiler: V5C12
    Show
    Cinder is rational enough to realize the danger and move to the vault immediately when she learns Ozpin is there. However, she doesnít not show any great urgency in doing so.


    Its actually pretty amazing what theyíve been doing with RWBY given it is still a webshow. Animation is pretty expensive and RWBYís animation is a lot more detailed and motion rich than almost any anime. The decision to steadily upgrade the animation over the last three volumes is at the expense of more fight scenes and doing more in the fight scenes. Each time they upgrade the characters and everything else it makes fighting harder to animate (since there is so much more detail to animate). The cool transitions Iíd like to see, such as doing something with a 3-D camera zooming and panning over all the fights as they continue to take place, would be a beast to do.
    I think the most reasonable explanation is that the villains actually planned out who they're going to fight, with the caveat that Jaune stole Cinder away before she could do so, and there's an active degree of keeping them from fighting with each other since they think they can take them in 1v1 fights. We just don't get to see much of that. And fair read on Emerald. Also yeah, that's a good point. Cinder's basically just too broken a person to even "get" what sets her opponent off. Which kind of comes against her attempts to sadistically play with Jaune, but then she can understand SOME bit of human emotion I guess.

    I will never agree with you on RWBY's animation being more detailed and motion rich than hand drawn anime. I can't find the gif anymore to show you but it was of the current Pretty Cure anime I think, fighting some kind of lobster man (magical girl shows are weird) and it was better than basically anything RWBY has ever done in it's entire existence. The animation is getting better, yes, but it's never going to surpass hand drawn for me. That's okay though.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2018-01-08 at 11:42 PM.


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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I think the most reasonable explanation is that the villains actually planned out who they're going to fight, with the caveat that Jaune stole Cinder away before she could do so, and there's an active degree of keeping them from fighting with each other since they think they can take them in 1v1 fights. We just don't get to see much of that. And fair read on Emerald. Also yeah, that's a good point. Cinder's basically just too broken a person to even "get" what sets her opponent off. Which kind of comes against her attempts to sadistically play with Jaune, but then she can understand SOME bit of human emotion I guess.
    Cinder can read pain, she wouldnít understand things like love and friendship being so important to people. The reason she got that attack friends would hurt Juane the most is that he opened his mouth and told her. I donít think it has ever occurred to her that she could set off Ruby in the same way (and if it did she would have no idea it could trigger magical power; Cinder only knows of hatred as a power up force).

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I will never agree with you on RWBY's animation being more detailed and motion rich than hand drawn anime. I can't find the gif anymore to show you but it was of the current Pretty Cure anime I think, fighting some kind of lobster man (magical girl shows are weird) and it was better than basically anything RWBY has ever done in it's entire existence. The animation is getting better, yes, but it's never going to surpass hand drawn for me. That's okay though.
    Glitter Force is drawn better!? If someone else said that I would take them for a troll and never discuss anything again. Our taste is so far apart I donít think weíre going to bridge that gulf. Do you actually think Pretty Cure animation is outstanding, with marvaleous fight scenes, or are you actually picking it for being the sort of by-the-numbers lazy anime that I see the 15-year old franchise as?

    If I had to pick a Mahou Shoujo for lazy design and execution Pretty Cure would be it. Give me Dai Mahou Touge or something original. At least Card Captor Sakura is a labor of love that Clamp put their all in (new series!) not that it has particularly good fight scenes. Shojo are generally all about the character design and making everything pretty and definitely not the fights (unless you count the transformation sequences).

    I get you really dislike the RWBY animation by comparing it to Pretty Cure, let me know if Iím wrong. Like I know people who take one look at RWBY and say something like ďwhatís wrong with that animationĒ or something to that effect. My gf was one but converted after I took her to the theater for Vol 1 on the screen. I donít know anyone who actually stuck with it that still see the animation as off...but to watch it, find the style perfectly fine, but still compare it to third rate anime...

    I hope something about Pretty Cure is awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Glitter Force is drawn better!? If someone else said that I would take them for a troll and never discuss anything again. Our taste is so far apart I donít think weíre going to bridge that gulf. Do you actually think Pretty Cure animation is outstanding, with marvaleous fight scenes, or are you actually picking it for being the sort of by-the-numbers lazy anime that I see the 15-year old franchise as?

    If I had to pick a Mahou Shoujo for lazy design and execution Pretty Cure would be it. Give me Dai Mahou Touge or something original. At least Card Captor Sakura is a labor of love that Clamp put their all in (new series!) not that it has particularly good fight scenes. Shojo are generally all about the character design and making everything pretty and definitely not the fights (unless you count the transformation sequences).

    I get you really dislike the RWBY animation by comparing it to Pretty Cure, let me know if Iím wrong. Like I know people who take one look at RWBY and say something like ďwhatís wrong with that animationĒ or something to that effect. My gf was one but converted after I took her to the theater for Vol 1 on the screen. I donít know anyone who actually stuck with it that still see the animation as off...but to watch it, find the style perfectly fine, but still compare it to third rate anime...

    I hope something about Pretty Cure is awesome.
    For what it's worth the tweet was in Japanese so I don't know what series it was. Also no spoilers for Clear Card Arc I haven't seen it. Also if you're watching Card Captor for fight scenes you're doing it wrong, it's still pretty beautifully animated though.

    I was comparing it to Precure because I had just seen an awesome fight in it. The original Pretty Cure is basically a girl oriented Dragon Ball Z in terms of action, it's awesome. Take a look at the opening if you want. Pretty Cure is definitely not third rate, or at least wasn't last time I checked. I might be wrong about the more modern shows.

    My issue with RWBY's animation is that it still feels kinda bleh to me. I don't like how everything looks, it has a weird lack of weight to it with poor sound effects, and there's clipping errors and other just weird motions/visual glitches. It's definitely gotten better though, and I wouldn't compare it to something bad anymore. I'd probably call it to be around the level it is writing wise, so it's like Fairy Tail in terms of animation and stuff.

    Also part of why I brought up Precure is because it's about girls in billowy skirtrs punching monsters and evil people. I wanted to keep it comparable to RWBY. If you want me to pick a more "acceptable as good" series I'll just throw out FMA or Samurai Champloo instead.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2018-01-09 at 01:20 AM.


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  27. - Top - End - #267
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    I figured you were seeing bleh somehow with RWBY. However, I havenít seen this awesome fight scene from Pretty Cure so I can only compare it with what Iíve seen.

    What I see from Pretty Cure (like Sailor Moon and most shojo) is a lot of posing, limited animation with a lot of stopping, covered by loud animation and very obvious use of looping. Girlís Dragon Ball Z indeed.

    Watching that and looking at RWBY is night and day for me. I donít mind anime (well I do mind how repetitive Dragon Ball Z is, and hate fight animation that compares to it) but RWBY immediately grabbed my interest the moment I caught it and saw how fluid the action was. It was like Monty had a direct channel to what I wanted to see and how to animate it to be satisfying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I figured you were seeing bleh somehow with RWBY. However, I havenít seen this awesome fight scene from Pretty Cure so I can only compare it with what Iíve seen.

    What I see from Pretty Cure (like Sailor Moon and most shojo) is a lot of posing, limited animation with a lot of stopping, covered by loud animation and very obvious use of looping. Girlís Dragon Ball Z indeed.

    Watching that and looking at RWBY is night and day for me. I donít mind anime (well I do mind how repetitive Dragon Ball Z is, and hate fight animation that compares to it) but RWBY immediately grabbed my interest the moment I caught it and saw how fluid the action was. It was like Monty had a direct channel to what I wanted to see and how to animate it to be satisfying.
    I don't see what's wrong with posing. The slowing down of action to let a hit set in, to let your brain catch up with the action, is really important for a fight scene to flow well for me. If it's all just quick bambambam action, it starts to enter the realm of shakey came style fights. Look at like, then Bourne films, especially the latest ones. They're cut to hell and jump around forever and feel like utter garbage to me. RWBY is way better than that since it makes sure to show the action clearly, but it goes at that same speed.

    At the end of the day this is just a personal difference we hold and will never really be able to reconcile. I don't think this is negative it's just a thing we'll never truly agree on, no matter how many good fight scenes I show you.


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  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Okay, first of all, anime that uses traditional 2d animation techniques hasn't been 'hand-drawn' for some time. It just isn't crafted using computer generated 3d models like RWBY is. RWBY is comparable to recent anime series that do use 3d models atop a more traditional background. For example Ajin: Demi-Human is animated that way.

    High-speed choreography in fighting sequences in animation is not dependent upon animation style, it's dependent upon money. 2d anime is produced for cheap and comes with all kinds of tricks to save money. All the posing in anime isn't done because it's ideal for conveying the fights, it's there because still shots of characters talking - or cutting to a react shot, or doing low res explosions, etc. - is cheap. When a high-production show really opens up the coffers and pours on the funds to have a big d*** huge fight sequence in anime that stuff isn't there. For instance, the final episodes of Fate Apocrypha (a series that has high production values because the Nausverse has obsessive fans who will pay ludicrous prices for limited edition DVDs) pour out money and have sequences that look stylistically much more like RWBY's best fights that many of its contemporaries.

    When you're doing 3d animation like RWBY does having the characters move dynamically in space is easier and cheaper than it is in 2d animation, because the rather than creating the illusion of movement, the models are actually moving. In fact they often look better in motion and rather stilted while just standing around. RWBY has gotten better over time in having the characters look appropriately human when they aren't going all kung-fu (as has the 3d model animation of the studio behind Sidonia, Ajin, and the BLAME! movie), but that remains the weak point.
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    Default Re: RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Okay, first of all, anime that uses traditional 2d animation techniques hasn't been 'hand-drawn' for some time. It just isn't crafted using computer generated 3d models like RWBY is. RWBY is comparable to recent anime series that do use 3d models atop a more traditional background. For example Ajin: Demi-Human is animated that way.

    High-speed choreography in fighting sequences in animation is not dependent upon animation style, it's dependent upon money. 2d anime is produced for cheap and comes with all kinds of tricks to save money. All the posing in anime isn't done because it's ideal for conveying the fights, it's there because still shots of characters talking - or cutting to a react shot, or doing low res explosions, etc. - is cheap. When a high-production show really opens up the coffers and pours on the funds to have a big d*** huge fight sequence in anime that stuff isn't there. For instance, the final episodes of Fate Apocrypha (a series that has high production values because the Nausverse has obsessive fans who will pay ludicrous prices for limited edition DVDs) pour out money and have sequences that look stylistically much more like RWBY's best fights that many of its contemporaries.

    When you're doing 3d animation like RWBY does having the characters move dynamically in space is easier and cheaper than it is in 2d animation, because the rather than creating the illusion of movement, the models are actually moving. In fact they often look better in motion and rather stilted while just standing around. RWBY has gotten better over time in having the characters look appropriately human when they aren't going all kung-fu (as has the 3d model animation of the studio behind Sidonia, Ajin, and the BLAME! movie), but that remains the weak point.
    Yes yes semantics. I need a short hand so I'll use 2D from now on, sorry. But don't get all snippy with me with that "well some of it is a mixture of CG and digitally done art" and also digital art is still hand drawn damnit I'm tired of art elitists (not saying you are just in general).

    There's more reasons than just budget for why posing and still shots happen. It's definitely a thing (just look at At The Ballroom) but at least in my experience series that focus on posing, or having looping animations, while they may do it in part to help budget, it's more of a happy accident that it does and the reason it's being done is for style.


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