Enter the Gungeon: Why it just doesn't sit right and Crypt of the Necrodancer does

[Scowling Dragon]

Enter the Gungeon is a game I really want to like. It's so polished, stylish, full of great puns, and just oozes personality, charm, and effort. This isn't the only rougelike, or bullet hell type shooter I have played, so its not a case of me being unfamilar with its game type.
But when I played it I would always just end up feeling dissatisfied, frustrated, annoyed, and bursts of real enjoyment where less common, then bursts of both combined monotony and the feeling of being outright drained.
And I could never exactly put my finger on the core flaw that made my experience with it miserable, despite in general liking Rougelikes.
Until very recently, and it came down to one thing: Enter the Gungeon Expects perfection, and punishes failure.

That seems very simple, and something all good games do right? I just need to get gud right? Well after having played and LOVED Crypt of the Necrodancer, I have come to an understanding that thats not exactly the case.
Both CotN and EtG are very skill based Roguelikes, with your drops at best enabling further gameplay but not capable of carrying you through them, but CotN is the opposite.
Crypt of the Necrodancer expects perfection and rewards success.
Thats the very soul of EtGs problems and what makes it punishing to play, and not rewarding. Both systems give you a extra reward if you beat the floors boss flawlessly, both systems reduce your money pickup if you take damage (or miss a beat in CotN).

But CotN by default lists no bonus. If you keep taking damage and being slow, you find yourself on a barren floor with a X1 multiplier for gold drops. But if you succeed, and KEEP the beat, your REWARDED with a higher multiplier (up to X3), and a blazing dance floor that makes the experience FEEL good. It also gives incriments of success. Against a Boss you have multiple different victory states. A pure bad one, taking damage repeteadly, so your rewarded with a baseline gold drop. Maybe a better one with a multiplier, or a perfect one where you get the max gold, but also a selection of 1 of 3 differnt chests that are marked to show what TYPE of item might be inside (Magic, Weapon or Armor or Other), giving you more control over the drop and the gold is always useful.
If your doing perfect in CotN you can expect to purchase whatever items suit your fancy along the way.

EtG on the other hand keeps many (If not MOST) of its systems hidden, making it a chore to remember, as well as giving an unpleasant uncertantly. It has a baseline potential payout for a Spawned Monster (No Garuntee if it will be good or not), and its lowered if you take damage from that monster. Bosses drop baseline rewards at the end of the battle as well, but there is again no garuntee if they will be useful or not. It could be hearts when you can't carry more, it could be keys when your all full. If you perfect the boss, your then also rewarded with an extra heart slot. But there is no inbetween, No chears if your doing good, just the sullen knowledge that your doing bad if you didn't get the drop.
If your doing perfect in CotN you can maybe purchase 1 or 2 items in the store if your lucky, and probably none at all if your not doing that well,
This is the core problem, but not the only one.

CotN and EtG are both intense games, but CotN is shorter, and consistent and ramps up faster, whilst EtG is longer, has up and down periods, and has a long speed up time.

CotN gives you the unlockable ability to practice against the enemies, bosses, stages, specific enemies with specific weapons, loadouts, and comboes of every floor, whilst EtG only gives a vauge guide, and the time it takes to the higher levels makes getting caught off gaurd by an enemy whos pattern you don't understand even more frusturating, and the long periods between encountering the enemies again makes it even more tiring, and difficult to learn from mistakes.

CotN keeps its numbers simple, Enemies HP is measured in simple hearts and 10 is about the upper end of damage a weapon can do. EtG muddles everything with percentage chances, with numbers reaching into the thousands, and gives you no glance of its interior calculations making even understanding the numbers difficult, weapons don't have any damage indicators.

CotN is about Quality of items. Paltry amount in comparison to EtG, each item feels and plays differently, with fundemental playstyle changes, and simple enough to really get on a quick glance, and very few are just binary upgrades of other items.. EtG is about such levels of quantity that most items feel almost exactly the same, and so many being jokey or unyeldy weapons, feel annoying and I found myself begging for the simple practical ones. Many items are just numarical upgrades of other ones, with a different visual effect to distinguish them.

There is more differences as well, but I just wanted to nail down my thoughts in one place.

[Leecros]

EtG is about such levels of quantity that most items feel almost exactly the same, and so many being jokey or unyeldy weapons, feel annoying and I found myself begging for the simple practical ones. Many items are just numarical upgrades of other ones, with a different visual effect to distinguish them.

To me, this is Enter The Gungeon's biggest problem. I could forgive the game for a lot if the guns were actually fun to play with. That's what separates Enter The Gungeon from a game like Binding of isaac for me. Unlike BoI which has interesting items, short floors, and that creates a nice little variance that most importantly doesn't drag on and on.EtG has uninteresting items and much longer floors which leads to just a particularly unexciting experience that just feels like it goes on forever.

That's why I have 50 hours in Enter the Gungeon and 500 on Binding of Isaac: Rebirth.


Edit:
It's not that I hate Enter the gungeon. I definitely feel like i got my money's worth, but unlike Binding of Isaac. I can't play more than one or two games of it at a time before I lose interest.

[Scowling Dragon]

It's not that I hate Enter the gungeon. I definitely feel like i got my money's worth, but unlike Binding of Isaac. I can't play more than one or two games of it at a time before I lose interest.

Binding of Isaac paradoxically I would say is more a dungeon crawler then Gungeon. Isaac is about resource management, and there are many ways to game the system, even with what feels like a substandard loadout.
Ways to get to the devil room even while taking damage, and then turn that devil room into an angel room, then Seraphim, then combo with slot machine and blood donation, bing bam boom you win.

Gungeon doesn't give you those types of systems. Its generally pretty linear. Either you took no damage or you did. Either you have enough keys or you don't.

[boomwolf]

Honestly, I prefer EtG.
Tried TotN once, and I joust got annoyed quickly.

I DON'T want everything to be clear cut and obvious, give me that feeling of mystery, of asking myself "just how good is this? Better test!", and of getting excited every time I find out a gimmick that wasn't outright told to me, and improve not only by better reflexes and reactions or memorizing every patterns, but slowly learning just what my own character is capable of, what to watch for, and even how hidden mechanics play out (hello curse, key manipulation and various secrets)

It makes that lucky break with a chance item FEEL like a lucky break. The bad guns feel right, because I learn myself what to keep, what to trash and what ammo is more expendable, versus boss killers.

And yes, the pacing comes and goes. That's a good thing, every door is a new rush, a new threat. I bash in and I have no idea, is this a simple encounter versus a handful of regular gundead, or a death room filled with elites. I'm always on my toes before entering a room, but can calm down and rest once I beat it.

The very things you find troubling I find interesting and engaging.

[Scowling Dragon]

I DON'T want everything to be clear cut and obvious, give me that feeling of mystery, of asking myself "just how good is this? Better test!", and of getting excited every time I find out a gimmick that wasn't outright told to me, and improve not only by better reflexes and reactions or memorizing every patterns, but slowly learning just what my own character is capable of, what to watch for, and even how hidden mechanics play out (hello curse, key manipulation and various secrets)

CotN has all those things as well, it just lets you build on the systems in place instead of arbitrary hiding them behind RNG. EtG has actually in my mind VERY few "Secret" manipulatables. TBoI has that sort of system mastery WAY more in spades.

In CotN I can have something like: Rapier+Spiked Boots+Ring of Heroism, to create a fantastic combo that will have its own advantages and disadvantages depending on the floor, and I found out that combo through trial and error on my own.
Or like swapping weapons in the randomizer and seller to gain a good payout at the expense of time.

Even from a perspective of "Master the secret systems" EtG doesn't have very many. Its all pretty arbitrary.

It makes that lucky break with a chance item FEEL like a lucky break.

I thought you wanted skill?

And yes, the pacing comes and goes. That's a good thing, every door is a new rush, a new threat.

That wasn't the point. The point was that its pretty tedious, and pacebreaking. The game alternates between tedious and then suddenly intense then suddenly dripping slow. Maybe you enjoy tha kind of thing but I also personally enjoy some things I know I like but objectively I know that the majority don't.

The very things you find troubling I find interesting and engaging.

Id say my complaints still stand on points of objective merit, even from what you want or "Like" the game can be way better in order to achieve all what you listed.
I mean lets admit that for you to even know about the curse system/ Key manipulation/ coolness/majesty you would have had to look it up on the wiki.

From a pure "Skill" element the game is pretty arbitrary there as well. If they wanted to make it more skill based, they sure filled the game with elements that don't make it so very randomized.

Stuff like the Jar Fairy is an example of arbitrary punishing elements, that depend on randomness.

If the intent is for a burst of pacing, why does the game fill itself with purely randomized traps that makes navigation tedious but also very stressful.

[Cespenar]

After a hundred hours of Nuclear Throne, Enter the Gungeon felt like extremely mediocre to me.

Still, I gave it a good go (reached the penultimate level, I think?), hoping that maybe interesting weapons will pop up and spice things up a little.

Eh.

P.S. Necrodancer isn't really a good comparison. That game arguably doesn't even have any competitors in its sub-subgenre.

[Scowling Dragon]

Necrodancer isn't really a good comparison. That game arguably doesn't even have any competitors in its sub-subgenre.

I compared structure and design, which they are similar in.

[Cespenar]

I compared structure and design, which they are similar in.

No, no, you were careful in your separation of the comparing points, but Necrodancer is just too darn unique to not shine in the mind's eye for its other aspects. It's easy to be biased in Necrodancer's case.

Something like Nuclear Throne or Binding of Isaac might be better and stricter comparisons for being a more similar game to EtG.

[Scowling Dragon]

Something like Nuclear Throne or Binding of Isaac might be better and stricter comparisons for being a more similar game to EtG.

Well I said I would do it and compare it to them:

Binding of Isaac: Compared to it, Gungeons shooting runs circles around binding of Isaac. Isaac almost intentionally feels terrible. Your guns are generally always pitful, and the sound effects and visuals reinforce that pitful aspect. Heck you can only aim in 4 directions without a powerup!

But Binding of Isaac is also allot less punishing, and better designed as a Rougelike. I needed teleporters in Gungeon to speed up the sloggish walks, but Isaacs walking speed and small rooms make navigating its floors much quicker. In Gungeon even with Teleporters I found it to have sudden sloggish moments where its just nothing but trudging through these elaborate rooms.
Isaac is also much more of a Dungeon Crawler then Gungeon, and it sets up its own internal elements for you to use and master. Sacrifice Rooms, Gambling Dens, Cursed Rooms, Devil/Angel rooms are all elements you can, and are made to game, and master, making Dungeon runs much more reliable after mastery.
Gungeon intentionally does not want you mastering any of its elements. It only wants you to shoot. It intentionally has resourcful rat destroy most of any equipment you just happen to not be able to use right this very second.
Which paradoxically makes Gungeon feel allot more random and simple, despite having more complex gameplay elements and in theory less "Randomness" dependant elements.
Both Isaac and Gungeon have synergies, but in Isaac you have to collect 3 out of a select set and get some bonus (Often these being items that have a wider range of getting picked), and a neat visual signifier. Gungeon has this only once, and requires you to collect 4 out of 4 and then curses you on top of that. Outside of that it has a bunch of "Collect these two items for a bonus for these items" stuff that once again you just gotta hope for at random, drop.
Gungeon almost feels like a bunch of Mini-Bullet hell levels stapled together in comparison to Isaacs Dungeons that despite being much less interesting, will end up feeling like complete places when you master them.

Nuclear throne is more like Gungeon, but also goes for "More is less". There are less different weird guns, but the guns there really make you understand how they function, and a less amount of damage sponging means that guns feel allot more distinct despite less visual interest. In Gungeon a Crossbow feels like a "High accuracy required high damage output" weapon for a floor or two, and then feels like every other gun as the health scaling makes DPS more important then anything else. Nuclear throne has the crossbow feel like a heavy weapon much longer, and has direct style upgrades that Gungeon does not have. Even there are similar categories of Guns in Gungeon, once again the level of health scaling makes most indivudualities just melt away with time, making them all feel almost exactly the same by the end.

Nuclear thrones hectic pacing and Ammo/hp drop style rewards intense combat, but Gungeon is once again a strong focus on the crafted experience inside every single room, and expects perfection every time.