I'm still a little upset, but is it really as bad as it seems to me? (Forcecage)

[rmnimoc]

So in a game I'm playing we'd made it to tenth level. I had a pretty fun thing going for me, I was a spear wielding monk that gave up being a monk to be a swashbuckler, aiming for something along the lines of Cuchulain in the Type/Moon universe.

Our party of four had been going through our campaign and when we got to the final fight against the big bads (a level 12 party), I was immediately put in the corner and not allowed to do anything during the fight. No roll for initiative or perception, no save, no attack roll, just instant ambush and a 1/day forcecage item that specifically locked me down and no one else. As someone who wasn't a sorcerer there was no way for me to get out. Since no spell below 6th level can destroy it and you don't get those until 11 there was nothing our wizard could do. So the rest of the party died, and both my character and me got to sit there incredibly unhappy as my entire party was straight up slaughtered. So I waited for another 59 minutes in game time, ran around a corner, hid, brutally murdered the wizard and their swashbuckler because screw those guys, and then I died.

When I talked the the DM after the game, he explained that he wanted the encounter to be hard and said he figured that each of us would probably have a coin flip to win against each enemy, and so it was totally balanced. Then he realized I could rocket-tag the wizard and kill him in one turn, so rather than talk to me as a player so we could come to a solution that would have been fun and enjoyable (it's not like it would have been a particularly challenging puzzle, just have one of the other characters challenge me and I'd have gladly fought him instead, heck I'd already challenged their swashbuckler to a duel multiple times) he just decided that I didn't get to be a part of the fight at all. They practically got an entire short rest between fighting my party and me.

In the DM's defense he is fairly new to the whole DMing thing, with this being his first campaign, but it nearly lasted a year and I really feel like he should have known better than to try to solve a meta-narrative-problem in game like that. Ultimately we all left the table feeling unhappy and when the DM asked about interest in another campaign he was working on I had a hard time saying I'd think about it instead of just an instant "No". It really feels like it just soured the entire campaign with a single spell.

So, I'll confess that as a player who got screwed, I'm a bit biased here. Was this as bad as it seems to me, or should I just forget about it and agree to be part of the new campaign?

Also as someone who played 3.5 no small amount, I've gotten very used to magical items as a solution to some of the problems martial classes face going up against spell casters. In 3.5 you've got things like boots of big stepping or a shadow cloak to get around things like forcecage, but 5e seems a lot less free with it's magic items, and it seems to have significantly fewer and weaker magic items in general. What ways can you get around things like forcecage as a martial class in 5e?

[Kane0]

Your caster didnt have counterspell or dispel magic?
Otherwise yeah, forcecage is one of those high level, few-counter spells.
Every DM has those moments, live and learn. Was this the only major bungle he’s had?

[B0nes]

Your caster didnt have counterspell or dispel magic?
Otherwise yeah, forcecage is one of those high level, few-counter spells.
Every DM has those moments, live and learn. Was this the only major bungle he’s had?

Forcecage can't be dispelled by Dispel Magic. I believe the only ways to escape are with disintegrate or some form of teleporation (+ a CHA saving throw).

[mephnick]

D&D basically turns into a completely different game around levels 10+ and a lot of DMs (especially new ones) aren't ready for it. You need to be able to handle high end magic that can end encounters and even campaigns in unsatisfactory ways on both sides of the screen, plan for PC magic and not abuse NPC magic. I actually cap my games at level 12 because I hate what the game turns in to during high level play.

It was a bad way to run the encounter and you're right to feel a bit cheated, but I'd give him another shot to see if he handles it better.

[rmnimoc]

Your caster didnt have counterspell or dispel magic?
Otherwise yeah, forcecage is one of those high level, few-counter spells.
Every DM has those moments, live and learn. Was this the only major bungle he’s had?

The wizard had dispel magic, but forcecage explicitly isn't affected by it.

He'd had quite a few minor issues throughout the campaign, but they were all basic new DM stuff. We lost a few party members to a bad call on a thing that didn't quite work as the DM thought, but this was the only real time he did something stupid intentionally and not by accident.

[Jerrykhor]

Sounds like one of those stories of nightmare DMs whose enemies simply hard counter the PCs for reason, simply because the DM doesnt want to lose.

So no initiative or perception rolls at all? Sounds like he just want to force a TPK. Funny he still had the cheek to ask for another campaign.

Its still arguable, but IMO spells that make players sit out of entire fights should not be used on players. Banishment is one, especially if there is no way to reach the caster. Its no different from the DM pointing at one player and say, 'You don't get to play', and just remove him/her from the equation.

If I were you, I'd not agree to a new campaign unless your DM watches all the Matt Colville videos to learn up about DMing.

[Waterdeep Merch]

There should've been something you could do. I used forcecage on a new player back in 3.5 as they started approaching high levels. With a quickened cloudkill thrown in, too. The difference was that I had just off-handedly given that player a few scrolls of gaseous form amongst other kinds of loot, and I wanted to teach him how to think in terms of counter-play, since it was important for high level encounters back then. He felt very smart when he escaped that way. Exactly as planned.

It's not unusual for new DM's to accidentally screw this up. Sometimes even experienced DM's grossly miscalculate something and effectively remove a player from gameplay for a while, though usually not intentionally like your's did. If you're thinking of playing another campaign with him, let him know that you'd like something to do.

[KorvinStarmast]

What ways can you get around things like forcecage as a martial class in 5e?

Have a team mate who can cast disintegrate.
your DM sorta hosed you.

[Kane0]

Forcecage can't be dispelled by Dispel Magic. I believe the only ways to escape are with disintegrate or some form of teleporation (+ a CHA saving throw).

Oh yeah, forgot about that.

In that case, you should have cast Book to Face.

[Foxhound438]

this feels like one of those moments where I'd just go get a hot dog or something, since sitting at the table at that point is just like getting a handful of dog crap shoved up your nose.

[Malifice]

No initiative was wrong. Your DM was wrong. Surprised or otherwise, initiative comes first. It always comes first.

Also how on earth don't you have access to counterspell or misty step or similar teleportation magic?

Finally 4 10th level PCs vs 4 12 level NPCs? That's a beyond deadly fight with a greater than 50/50 chance of a TPK. Again, bad DMing.

No wonder you left the game angry.

[Chugger]

This is a bad DM. Don't let him DM any more. He's had that many weeks to learn and pulled this? This is pure crap.

[Waazraath]

The main problem isn't force cage, that was just instrumental; problem imo is the DM using tactics the party has no way to counter, it's the 'ambush without being able to do anything about it' combined with no initiative role (invalidating rescources like the Alert feat or the barbarian class feature that help you even when surprized), and it's the combat setup against a foe in which you loose against most of the time; without the opportunity to run or not engage at all (because surpise attack). Ah, and the removing somebody from combat, round 1, intentionally. I mean, I played a lot of 3.5, and it happened a lot there; the accidental failed save against a paralyze that took somebody out of major fight. Could happen, wasn't fun, so most of that was removed in 5e, with good reason. To create such a situation as a DM, on purpose.... (where's that roll eyes emoticon when you need it)

No. If your description is correct, this just sucked and was textbook bad DM'ing.

[Malifice]

People are being a touch harsh on the DM here. Yes he messed up but he was inexperienced so it's understandable.

[JellyPooga]

To all those saying "no second chances"; woah, guys! Didn't you ever make a mistake when GMing? Sure, the guy f-ed up, he made a bad call (maybe several) but to slap him down and say "Nope; no GMing for you again. Ever." is no way to teach someone how to...and this is important...play the game. Because that's what GMing is; it's playing a game, just like being a player in an RPG. The only difference is that you're the one calling the shots, you're the one setting the scenes and controlling the flow. It's a lot more work being GM. It's hard. It's also supposed to be fun.

So, let's stop with the "that guys a complete douche-bag, never speak to him again" crap, shall we? He's just some guy who has never GM'd before trying to do his best, from the way I read the OP. How about, instead, we encourage our justifiably angry OP to maybe just give this guy another shot? I know I found it tough when I first accidentally killed some PC's because I didn't know the game well enough and set them up against a tougher encounter than I thought it was. I've learned since then.

To the OP; First off, Forcecage is a strong spell, but that wasn't the problem. The problem was a GM that didn't have the experience to recognise the consequences of all aspects of the encounter they had in mind. Second, you have every right to feel cheated by this turn of events, but don't take it out on this GM of yours. S/he's clearly enthusiastic to be a GM otherwise they wouldn't be offering to run another game. That's a good thing. Sit down and talk to them; explain what you felt was wrong and give them a second chance. If the second chance goes sour, then maybe think about finding greener pastures, but only if you think the problem is beyond saving.

[Unoriginal]

Your DM had decided to make your character lose. It's not a question of Forcecage or of magic items, anything you could have done would have been shut down.

Now you could have gotten trapped in the Forcecage in a legit way, but it would still have went way different.


Your DM messed up big time, but maybe he'd improve if someone with more experience gave him advice and helped him understand the game. Because from the "aha you lose" Forcecage to having the bad guys be NPCs built like PCs, not to mention the idea that you pummeling the enemy caster is a bad thing, your DM needs a lot of help to understand the game.

[sithlordnergal]

So, it sounds like you have every reason to be upset. That said, give the dm one more chance. I am all for second chances, and honestly? While he shouldn't have targeted you specifically, it sounds like the DM either underestimated or over estimated something.

I'll admit that the first time I DMed a game it was with a table of 11 people. They had a TPK due to a mix of poor rolls on their part and me overestimating the party's abilities. Now, in my case everyone still managed to have fun because they found the goblin who had tricked all 11 of them hilarious, and they found it funny none of them could rolk higher then 12 on an insight check against the goblin's deception roll. But still, it ended up being an unintended TPK of an 11 party member group against about 8 goblins and two worgs.

After that I learned how much a PC could handle and I set up challenges accordingly. My most recent experience was better, with the players pulling through a very difficult fight. Was it close? Ehhh, a little. The PC's thought it was close, but it really wasn't. Heck, the druid only burned 2 spell slots during it and didn't use wild shape.

[Contrast]

So, I'll confess that as a player who got screwed, I'm a bit biased here. Was this as bad as it seems to me, or should I just forget about it and agree to be part of the new campaign?

Not giving you an initiative roll was bogus but even if you'd had one I'm not sure there's much you could have done. The real issue is he doesn't seem to have balanced the encounter right (the ability to cast forcecage once per day is a significant buff to the challenge of the encounter as you experienced).

To throw my own story into the mix as to if you should play again - I played a game a while back that lasted multiple years. The campaign was great and my favourite I've played in. The final game was probably my least favourite of all those games though because the DM had a plot in mind. The outcome of the game was determined before we started and it was just a case of turning up to twiddle our thumbs for a couple of hours while the DM patted himself on the back for all his foreshadowing.

Campaign was still my favourite because the rest of the campaign was great. So the question is - did you enjoy the rest of the game?

[Chunkosaurus]

Sounds like one of those stories of nightmare DMs whose enemies simply hard counter the PCs for reason, simply because the DM doesnt want to lose.

So no initiative or perception rolls at all? Sounds like he just want to force a TPK. Funny he still had the cheek to ask for another campaign.

Its still arguable, but IMO spells that make players sit out of entire fights should not be used on players. Banishment is one, especially if there is no way to reach the caster. Its no different from the DM pointing at one player and say, 'You don't get to play', and just remove him/her from the equation.

If I were you, I'd not agree to a new campaign unless your DM watches all the Matt Colville videos to learn up about DMing.

I mostly agree with what you said, but banishment isn't too bad since it is concentration. I used it on one of my PCs one time to the plane of fire muhahaha, and then the rest of them immediately focus fired down the enemy who cast it with the big guns until he failed a concentration check

[MrStabby]

Don't just judge the encounter. That is just cherry picking the most recent example. Judge the whole campaign, and the encounter in that context. It sounds like your DM was generally doing well for a new DM.

The DM did make a mistake but the same action can come from a lot of different types of mistake.

For example why did the DM use the forcecage? To stop you effectively ending the encounter on turn 1. Was this a valid judgement for a cause to act (even if the outcome was not appropriate)? I.e. could you have effectively ended the encounter too easily if there hadn't been an action?

Did the DM intend this to make the encounter more fun for the players? If you had ended it would it have stopped the other players having a chance to shine? Even if poorly executed, was the DM motivated out of concern for the fun of the party?

Did the DM plan well but execute poorly? If the DM gave the party a means to escape the cage or made the cage a cage with gaps for missile weapons to be used and the party didn't use these, then yeah the DM didn't do a good job of working with the party but the attitude is ok. Likewise, if the initiative thing was something that just happened, rather than intended to happen that way then that is just a new DM having trouble keeping on top of a complex encounter.


What you need to decide was whether this was a problem of attitude or a problem of judgement. Judgement can be more easily fixed. Were they going after YOU to go after you, or were they doing this as a power trip vs were they doing it because they thought it would add something to the encounter.

Finally, how does the DM take feedback? If you were to say "being stuck in a forcecage wan't fun for me; please can we have fewer encounters like that in the next campaign" how would they take it?

[Naanomi]

On the other end.... a 1/day Forcecage magic item would have been a big boost for your team if you’d have taken him down...

[Unoriginal]

For example why did the DM use the forcecage? To stop you effectively ending the encounter on turn 1. Was this a valid judgement for a cause to act (even if the outcome was not appropriate)? I.e. could you have effectively ended the encounter too easily if there hadn't been an action?

Just want to point out:

If the DM realizes that one PC can destroy an encounter on turn 1 and the DM doesn't want that to happen, the thing to do is "go back to the drawing board and re-design the encounter with enemies that won't get destroyed like that", not " let's railroad this guy into being only able to helplessly watch the encounter because I don't want them to easily beat the bad guys."

[tieren]

I also wonder if the fight had to happen then. Was it a sandbox campaign and your party got to them a little too early or if there was a hook to find something that might have helped swing the fight that wasn't followed up on. (wand or scroll of disintegrate for instance).

[KorvinStarmast]

D&D basically turns into a completely different game around levels 10+ and a lot of DMs (especially new ones) aren't ready for it.
I actually cap my games at level 12 because I hate what the game turns in to during high level play.

High level play is almost a different game. *tips cap*

It was a bad way to run the encounter and you're right to feel a bit cheated, but I'd give him another shot to see if he handles it better.

Yeah. Making someone a pariah for a DM booboo isn't good for the hobby.

No initiative was wrong. Your DM was wrong. Surprised or otherwise, initiative comes first. It always comes first. Also how on earth don't you have access to counterspell or misty step or similar teleportation magic? Finally 4 10th level PCs vs 4 12 level NPCs? That's a beyond deadly fight with a greater than 50/50 chance of a TPK. Again, bad DMing. No wonder you left the game angry.

Not sure about your *Also how on earth don't you have access to counterspell or misty step or similar teleportation magic* fits with a Monk. Que?

People are being a touch harsh on the DM here. Yes he messed up but he was inexperienced so it's understandable.

Yes, this point is well made.

To all those saying "no second chances"; woah, guys! Didn't you ever make a mistake when GMing? Sure, the guy f-ed up, he made a bad call (maybe several) but to slap him down and say "Nope; no GMing for you again. Ever." is no way to teach someone how to...and this is important...play the game. Because that's what GMing is; it's playing a game, just like being a player in an RPG.

This too.
*stands and applauds JellyPooga's post*

[Unoriginal]

I also wonder if the fight had to happen then. Was it a sandbox campaign and your party got to them a little too early or if there was a hook to find something that might have helped swing the fight that wasn't followed up on. (wand or scroll of disintegrate for instance).

OP made clear that their character was shut down for being able to destroy the enemy mage, so no, it's probably more a scripted encounter DM didn't want the PCs to win easily.

[Temperjoke]

My two cents worth is that, based on what you've given us here, it is understandable that you'd be upset. With what you've shared with us, the DM clearly made a mistake. It happens with new players and new DMs. It's even more magnified when the DM makes a mistake because it affects everything. However, this is also an opportunity for the DM to learn. As others have mentioned, the game dynamic changes at various level point, which is a consequence of the PCs getting stronger, and a new DM has to learn how to balance encounters all over again.

I'd give him another chance. A DM who wants to do better will never be able to learn if no one forgives a major mistake.

[Unoriginal]

Though to be fair, getting a 1/day Forcecage item out of this fight would make it worth it.

[Easy_Lee]

Remind the DM that he can do anything. If he's worried your character will kill the wizard, he should make the wizard more difficult to kill. Trapping you in a forcecage with no initiative roll is a bad policy.

D&D is about the player characters' decisions, not the DM's. His job is to facilitate the game, not direct it. Until your DM understands that principle, you're going to have problems like this.

[Laserlight]

Just want to point out:

If the DM realizes that one PC can destroy an encounter on turn 1 and the DM doesn't want that to happen, the thing to do is "go back to the drawing board and re-design the encounter with enemies that won't get destroyed like that", not " let's railroad this guy into being only able to helplessly watch the encounter because I don't want them to easily beat the bad guys."

Quoted for truth.

There are some spells and tactics I won't use against PCs, because I want each encounter to be interesting and fun and "sit around for an hour looking at your phone and waiting for the encounter to end" is neither. That's not to say I would never hit them with Banish or Forcecage, but I would give them something to do. In this case, perhaps I'd throw an enemy at you and then Forcecage both of you together, for an instant Steel Cage Death Match. Or Forcecage you and ask you to run the enemy mooks. Or just accept that the baddie is going to die.

As for whether you should walk or not, I'd say "This is why I think it was a bad encounter" (not "this is why you're a bad DM") and see what happens. Every DM makes mistakes (except me, obviously), but most of them learn if you give them feedback. If this is one of the ones who refuses to get better, well, you can always walk later.

[Willie the Duck]

Overall, here are my insights:

DMs make mistakes. Good groups deal with this. DMs who are learning also have trouble with the whole "how do I use a mage as an opponent for a group with a mage-killer class?" issue. DMs learn. New DMs also have trouble with the whole "the players have gotten this that or the other ability, how do I keep the game challenging, without it seeming like I just raised all the enemies' ACs by 1 because their to-hit went up by 1?"

As to the specific spell and 5e--Force Cage is a problem spell. It is trivially easy to break with relatively common magic (misty step works, right?), but without said magic, you really are reliant on your teammates helping out or winning the fight without you. The only thing I can say is that people were complaining about the state of the norm in 3e as well (where it was a real wild west with players having almost any level of power depending on their magic item load-out, and it very hard to make balanced encounters, etc. etc.), so I understand why the designers did it. I'm a little surprised that they didn't change Force Cage to be something you could slowly hack through or squeeze through with acrobatics or something.