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2017-11-20, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
I recently got my claws on a copy of Ultimate Wilderness, because I have a problem, and I keep buying Pathfinder books. I have enough of them! I should stop!
Anyway, there's all sorts of interesting tidbits in Ultimate Wilderness; it's actually kind of all over the place.
I mainly want to discuss the new Shifter class.
Shifter is a new 20 level base class. Full BAB, d10 HD, druid weapon and armor proficiencies. While the Hunter was supposed to be a hybrid of Druid and Ranger, the Shifter seems to be a hybrid of Druid and... Hunter, oddly enough.
Shifters have a claw attack that scales in usefulness as they level, and they get access to minor shapeshifting forms that function almost identically to the Hunter's Animal Focus feature, with nearly the same variety of animals to choose from. They also get wildshape, like a druid, but are limited to the forms of their chosen animal aspects, functioning as beast shape II with a few extras as they level up.
I'm... puzzled by them. Not sure what they are really for. They seem to continue the Hunter's trend of 'diluting the druid,' but aside from worse spellcasting the Hunter's animal companion was just as good, if not better than a druid's. But the Shifter's wild shape ability is more limited than the druid's, and even with the better chassis (BAB, HD, etc.) they really trail behind. Animal aspect and scaling claws are no match for 1-9 divine casting from a buffs angle alone.
There is a feat squirreled away in UW that one might miss: Shifter's Edge. It lets a Shifter that uses Weapon Finesse with their claws to add their class level to damage, sort of like a Swashbuckler's precise strike or a Paladin's smite evil, but always-on. I thought 'hey, this is pretty neat,' and did some MATH:
Spoiler: NUMBERS
The following is hardly the most optimized route one could take. I picked level 6 since it's when druids get access to beast shape II, and level 12, which is the last level druids get an upgrade to their wild shape abilities. The druid is focusing on STR with self-buffing casting, and the shifter is going for DEX to use Shifter's Edge for the damage boost on claws. The shifter relies on Tiger form for pounce, or perhaps deinonychus (them's the only two what gets pounce).
This is using the standard array for ability scores: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 before racial mods, and assuming some vague WBL mostly based off the Automatic Bonus Progression rules from PF Unchained.
Level 6 Human Druid
STR 18 [26], DEX 12 [10], CON 13, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 10
Feats: Toughness, Natural Spell, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw); +6 hp favored class
BAB +4, Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +10, up to 3rd level spells
+1 resistance to saves, +1 deflection AC, +2 WIS
barkskin, longstrider, bull’s strength, greater magic fang
dire tiger form, 50 ft. speed (longstrider)
HP: 48 (+6 CON, +6 favored class, +6 Toughness)
AC: 15 (+0 Dex, +4 natural, +1 deflection, +3 barkskin, -1 size, -2 charge)
Attack: +13/+13/+12 (+4 BAB, +8 STR, +1 WF, +1 greater magic fang, +2 charge, -1 size, -2 Power Attack)
Damage: claw 2d4+13; bite 2d6+13, (+8 STR, +1 GMF, +4 Power Attack)
CMB grapple +19 (+4 BAB, +8 STR, +1 WF, +1 GMF, +2 charge, +4 grab, +1 size, -2 Power Attack)
Level 6 Human Shifter
STR 13 [17], DEX 18, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 10
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Shifter’s Edge, Power Attack / Piranha Strike, Weapon Focus (claw); +6 hp favored class
BAB +6, Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +5
+1 resistance to saves, +1 deflection AC, +1 amulet of mighty fists, +2 WIS
tiger minor form active (+2 DEX, canceled out by -2 DEX from large animal form)
dire tiger form, 40 ft. speed
HP: 55 (+12 CON, +6 favored class)
AC: 19 (+4 DEX, +4 natural, +1 deflection, +3 defensive instinct, -1 size, -2 charge)
Attack +11/+11/+10 (+6 BAB, +4 DEX, +1 enhancement, +1 WF, +2 charge, -1 size, -2 PA)
Damage claw 2d4+14; bite 2d6+8 (+3 STR, +6 Shifter’s edge, +1 enhancement, +4 PA)
CMB grapple +15 (+6 BAB, +3 STR, +1 enhancement, +2 charge, +4 grab, +1 size, -2 PA)
That’s pretty terrible! Let’s switch over to deinonychus with tiger minor form
STR [15] DEX [20]
AC: 19 (+5 DEX, +2 natural, +1 deflection, +3 defensive instinct, -2 charge)
Attack +13/+13/+12 (+6 BAB, +5 DEX, +1 enhancement, +1 WF, +2 charge, -2 PA)
Damage: 2 talons 1d8+13; bite 1d6+7 (+2 STR, +6 Shifter’s edge, +1 enhancement, +4 PA)
No grab!
THAT DOES NOT LOOK GOOD.
Let’s skip ahead, shall we?
Level 12 human druid
STR 24 [30], DEX 12 [8], CON 13 [17], INT 8, WIS 18, CHA 10
Feats: Toughness, Natural Spell, Power Attack, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Weapon Focus (claw), 2 free; +12 hp favored class
BAB +9, Fort. +15, Ref. +8, Will +16
+4 STR, +4 WIS, +3 resistance, +2 deflection, +1 wild stone plate, +3 amulet of mighty fists
spells up: barkskin, greater longstrider, bear’s endurance, stone skin, strong jaw (claws), bloody claws
Warcat form, 70 ft. speed, climb 30 ft. (greater longstrider) (Allosaurus accomplishes much the same thing, but no climb speed)
HP: 117 (+12 favored class, +12 Toughness, +36 CON)
AC: 18 (+6 natural, +5 barkskin, +2 deflection, +10 armor, -2 size, -1 DEX, -2 charge); DR 10/adamantine
Attack +20/+20/+19 (+9 BAB, +10 STR, +3 enhancement, +1 WF, +2 charge, -2 size, -3 PA)
Damage: 2 claws 2d8+19 +6 bleed; bite 2d6+19 +6 bleed +grab (+10 STR, +3 enhancement, +6 PA)
CMB grapple +27 (+9 BAB, +10 STR, +3 enhancement, +2 charge, +2 size, +4 grab, -3 PA)
Level 12 human shifter
STR 13 [21], DEX 20 [22], CON 18, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 10
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Shifter’s Edge, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw), Heavy Armor Proficiency, Toughness, 1 free; +12 hp favored class
BAB +12, Fort. +15, Ref +17, Will +10
+4 CON, +4 WIS, +3 resistance, +2 deflection, +3 amulet of mighty fists, +1 wild stone plate
Dire tiger form, 40 ft. speed
tiger and bull lesser forms active (+4 DEX and STR)
HP 142 (+12 Toughness, +12 favored class, +48 CON)
AC 25 (+6 DEX, +4 natural, +2 deflection, +6 defensive instinct, +10 armor, -1 size, -2 charge)
Attack +19/+19/+18 (+12 BAB, +6 DEX, +3 enhancement, +1 WF, +2 charge, -1 size, -4 PA)
Damage: 2 claws 2d4+28 +grab; bite 2d6+16 +grab (+5 STR, +3 enhancement, +8 PA, +12 shifter’s edge)
CMB grapple +24/+24/+23 (+12 BAB, +5 STR, +3 enhancement, +1 WF, +2 charge, +1 size, +4 grab, -4 PA)
Now, I tried shuffling things around for the Shifter to focus on STR over DEX and screw Shifter's Edge, but the feat really does make a difference; the STR Shifter lags even further behind, although they wind up with a better CMB for grappling.
So what the hell does the above mess mean?
Well, the Shifter will pull ahead on HP and AC, thanks to their DEX focus and their defensive instinct class feature (WIS+scaling bonus to AC if they aren't wearing armor). And at the higher levels, they seem to start pulling ahead damage wise thanks to Shifter's Edge. But their numbers are very similar, if not slightly worse, than a properly buffed druid, at least when it comes to attack rolls and CMB.
It's worth noting that the druid is running several buffs; their numbers would be less impressive without those buffs, while the shifter is only relying on items from their WBL.
HOWEVER, the druid also has a fully functional animal companion to bring to the table, and can take the shape of whatever they damn well please. By level 12, the Shifter only has three choices of wild shape forms.
****
Now, this might all just be comparing apples to oranges. I don't think anybody can reasonably compare the Shifter to the Druid; few classes can. But I am left wondering what niche the Shifter is meant to fill.
Are they similar to a Swashbuckler, a nimble high damage skirmishing type? Or are they like a different flavor of barbarian, more focused on natural attacks and transforming themselves in a fight to be more effective?
Only two of the Shifter's wild shape options give them pounce; you could go for some kind of overrun/bull rush build with the Bull, and the Bear form seems pretty killy. But pounce is often the best choice when it comes to natural attack builds from what I can gather...
I'll be fiddling with things as time progresses, and might even try putting together a guide once I wrap my head around it more. But for those of you with access to Ultimate Wilderness, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.Will you take the rocket launcher?
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2017-11-20, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
The Shifter is a leftover bowl of soup made out of half eaten meals from a week ago. The Hunter is better at being a Shifter if they shoot their dog.
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2017-11-20, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
While I agree that by the numbers the Shifter is not the "worst thing ever", it is greatly disappointing that it is worse at its shtick than any other previously published shapeshifting archetype. I would've hoped that the 'shapeshifting' class would be the best or atleast tied for best at shapeshifting, instead we got the '****ter'.
Ultimate Wilderness's magical plants looked intriguing at first, but ultimately you are probably better off with just Brew Potion.
While a great deal of feats looked intriguing, I have to say that a couple of feats seemed unnecessary and could've instead been written as a skill use expansion. Case in point, Animal Call; Was it really necessary to require a feat in-order to make a convincing animal sound?
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2017-11-20, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
That's been Pathfinder's curse for a while now; it infuriated me less than Ultimate Intrigue, where many common sense usages of social skills became locked behind pointless feats.
What ARE all of the shapeshifting archetypes? I quickly lose track of them. Is there a wild shaping ranger, for instance? That seems better out of the gate than a shifter by a mile.Last edited by CockroachTeaParty; 2017-11-20 at 08:02 PM.
Will you take the rocket launcher?
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2017-11-20, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty
Is [there] a wild shaping ranger, for instance? That seems better out of the gate than a shifter by a mile.
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2017-11-20, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
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2017-11-20, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
I'm so confused why their wildshape is worse than the druids. One of the coolest things about shapeshifting is the versatility it grants, but the Shifter is stuck with just a few forms. I'd rather play a Druid and never cast a single spell than play a Shifter. BAB isn't even super important for natural attack builds.
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2017-11-20, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
Maybe it's the 'unchained summoner' of wild shape builds? Dumb it down and reduce the number of options to speed up play? *shrug*
Will you take the rocket launcher?
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2017-11-20, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
Gonna be honest. I have only talked to people about the class so far, but Lords of the Wild by DSP (currently in playtest too) is far and away better then what I am hearing, even if its focused more heavily on werewolves then shifting in general.
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2017-11-20, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
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2017-11-20, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
They're for players who want to play a non-caster shapeshifter. They're absolutely terrible, but that's the niche they fill. You know how some players swear up and down by playing a rogue, and absolutely refuse to play a refluffed alchemist, investigator, slayer, bard, or ranger, because they stubbornly want to write "rogue" on their character sheet? It's kind of like that. Like you and several other people have mathematically proven, there is mechanically nothing they do that other classes like druid and feral hunter don't do better.
Swashbuckler is another notable flop. They're not good at skirmishing at all, and no, being able to spend panache to increase their acrobatics result doesn't count as having good mobility. Their mechanics don't support the high-flying, acrobatic action combat you see in Robin Hood, Zorro, or Three Musketeers. Their mechanics demand that they stand in one place and full attack, just like most other martials.
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2017-11-20, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
Will you take the rocket launcher?
A Blog about comics I made as a deranged little boy.
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2017-11-20, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
Alright, you got me, slayer wasn't a great example. Let's pretend I said inquisitor instead
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2017-11-20, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
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2017-11-20, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
Upon finally looking over the class, I can't begrudge it as much as others are. The druid might be better in every way except BAB and hit dice, and while I do wish that the class perhaps got a few bonus feats to take advantage of that high BAB and no limit to the aspects, I think the class is serviceable. And, better than that, it's at least archetypal. I'm reminded in several ways of the character Zamia from Throne of the Crescent Moon, and I'm sure there are a hundred other characters in fantasy fiction I am not naming. While casters may do it better, it's ALWAYS been that way. And while it may not mean much coming from a Slayer apologist (it functions rather well from my experience, and I hate the ranger with an irrational passion), I'm glad of the meta niche, a druidic martial that hews away from the ranger that can use magic without having to have spells (though I thought the class would be a 4th-level caster like paladins). I know players that would feel like they would be scared off by a druid or even a feral hunter, that this would appeal towards.
Edit: Actually, with the Improved/Greater Spring Attack feats, mobile warriors might be a thing now. Additionally I am a huge fan of the Skirmisher fighter archetype.Last edited by Ninjaxenomorph; 2017-11-20 at 11:15 PM.
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2017-11-21, 12:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
I second DSP's stuff for shapeshifting, but also the Shifter class in Spheres of Power, which has a new archetype in playtest which gives it access to Spheres of Might too.
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2017-11-21, 02:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
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2017-11-21, 07:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
The book does have a few gems in it (primarily in the archetype chapter and the wilderness rules chapter). Some good things include kineticist archetypes which aren't trash and are actually really cool, the ability to grow hotdog-trees, exploration rules for GMs who want something abit more involved than "Okay you travel for x many days and then there is a random encounter", brawler gets some neat archetypes, barbarians can get swallow whole, the ability to play an investigator as a pseudo-science scholar instead of a pseudo-science chemist, cavaliers who ride giant dinosaurs, druidic-style vigilantes.
Spoiler: Old Avatar by Aruiushttp://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q56/Zeritho/Koboldbard.png
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2017-11-21, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
Originally Posted by Milo v3
The book does have a few gems in it (primarily in the archetype chapter and the wilderness rules chapter).
What about them is gem-like? Are they useful enough to justify the cost of the book?
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2017-11-21, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
They can be taken at 9 and 16 BAB, basically let you do iteratives on different targets for Spring Attack. It has its weaknesses, like not being able to utilize Haste or any other ways of getting multiple attacks, and requiring extra prereqs (Nimble Moves for ISA, Acrobatic Steps for GSA), and you can't target different targets. Add themselves to the monk bonus feats, though.
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2017-11-21, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
Shifter's Edge is going to be errataed to grant only half of the level as a bonus. I'm not sure what numbers are actually expected to be competitive (in particular a fighter, because a shifter is a martial after all), but are they currently so high, that the shifter needs a nerf?
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2017-11-21, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-11-21, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-11-21, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
Don't forget it's also getting nerfed to be incompatible with Dex to damage methods. It only works if you use Dex to-hit and Str to damage.
This did become the stated design goal after everybody said "I hate this WTF did you do". They have also conveniently ignored any of the questions about "Why did you keep telling us we could become an owlbear and other hybrid animals when we can barely become non-hybrid animals?"
The Shifter is pure **** and there's no amount of spin they can put on it to change that. It fills no conceptual or mechanical niche and is generally uninspired schlock. Just like most playtest stage classes have been since the start of the game. Difference is this one didn't get a playtest because the poor widdle designers got their feelings hurt by people telling them the thing they made wasn't good and needed fixing. The class is so bad they banned discussion about it in the product thread until yesterday because it was the vast majority of what people wanted to talk about. Polite discussion, mind you, I was following the thread. The best thing anybody's said for it is "My 9 year old nephew kinda liked it when I let him read the book".
The rest of the book isn't much better than the Shifter. There's a couple of minor gems (Green Knight Cavalier and Venomfist Brawler come to mind, as well as the Totemic Initiate Feat line despite the inane useless Feat tax it requires, which is par for the course for Pathfinder) but the book as a whole isn't even worth the $9.99 PDF price. I feel sorry for people that bought the hardcover. Just wait for all the material to come upon the SRD in a month. Hard avoid.
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2017-11-21, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
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2017-11-21, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
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2017-11-21, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
I find it funny how I was tentatively excited for Shifter ever since it was first announced, but had my low expectations exceeded by depths I thought not possible to the point that everywhere I look only shows more disappointment, and yet this month's player companion (People of the Wastes) managed to take me by surprise by taking what are usually massive red flags on their own ("gun-using archetype" and "alchemist archetype"), and managing to give me something that not only surprised me in quality, but even made me excited to want to use it for my next character. Really makes me wonder if some of the better designers are being sidelined by Paizo playing it too safe with the core line.
To be fair, making it be half level and requiring it to use Str for damage puts it in line with an equivalent option, Lethal Grace, a Vigilante Talent. A talent which is probably one of the better ideas to come from Paizo. That feat getting "nerfed" is the least of Shifter's problems. It's a class that can function, but CRB fighter, monk, and rogue "could function" and everyone knows how that worked out.
Originally Posted by Draacul
On a more general note, the Spring Attack chain looked cool for about 10 seconds. Then I looked at their prerequisites and was reminded that Paizo seems to make feats as though every class got one every level, rather than every other level, which was hammered in further when I looked at the rest of the feats. I guess it's another thing to hope a GM combines into an auto-scaling feat, like so many other feat chains. The Familiar and animal companion sections, while I didn't get a chance to thoroughly examine them, seemed pretty good though. Aside from some of the clarifications "fixing" things that weren't really breaking anything. Rest in peace Mauler-familiar-Magical Child and Tumor Protector familiar.
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2017-11-21, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
So they're going to nerf Shifter's Edge, eh?
Why? It already has plenty of limitations. You can ONLY use it on claws. If you're pouncing or full attacking, you'll only get two attacks with them, three if you have haste. Any other archery or weapon-based character enjoys their full suite of iterative attacks.
If you had to nerf it, why not just call it precision damage, like the swashbuckler's precise strike?
Poor shifter...Will you take the rocket launcher?
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2017-11-21, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
You know, I was going to contest this by saying it worked on all natural attacks in wildshape, but then I went to check the wording and... It doesn't actually do that as-written, unless you really really stretch the wording of the Shifter Claws class feature. Wow. On the bright side, I'm pretty sure the monk archetype that gets Shifter claws will still make great use of it. Shame that said archetype doesn't work with Unchained Monk though.
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2017-11-21, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Shifter, and other assorted things: Ultimate Wilderness discussion
This has been the case for a while. The soft cover teams can actually focus on making good content without needing to pad it out with 50+% filler to complete the ridiculous word count mandates Paizo has for the hardcover books.
They also don't have Buhlman breathing down their necks all the time so they can actually make good content without him spazzing out.
Not ALL the softcovers are good but more good ones have come out recently than hardcovers, that's for sure. The X Tactics Toolbox and Y Master's Handbook series of books have some meh stuff in them but are overall really great, for instance. Even the bad stuff (like Ranged Trip/Disarm being so gimped) is at least INTERESTING.