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    Default Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    After holding my opinions for too long, I decided to make this.
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    Depends if "buying superior products than something made by a group of pseudo-scientists who thinks that the barely functional junk is supposed to be worshipped as machine spirit" is unjust.

    Combination of the horrible series and comic runs, I've seen Marvel trying to promote them as "good guys" except it's like introducing Tau with all their caste system and sterilizing non-Tau races in the universe where everyone is the bad guy.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    You should also include the prevailing hypothesis that the Tau leadership Ethereal caste exert a pheromone based mind control effect on the other Tau.

    Also according to my knowledge of the Tau (which is probably very out of date and has probably been retconned), the various castes are not equal in terms of prestige, with the Earth caste being looked down upon by the Fire caste for example.

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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Also regarding inhumans: disproportionate responses to kidnappings and literally not giving a damn that their magic gas makes mutant powers react out of control and/or just flat out kills mutants.

    When one of the two superconcentrated clouds of terrigen gas got destroyed, the Inhumans got pissed about it while actively refusing to help deal with the second one in a way that didn't require it to be destroyed.

    Not to mention Marvel has been pushing "humans with inhuman ancestry" as a replacement for mutants for a while.

    Though I'm kind of confuses... these are races from radically different settings. There's no reason to compare them unless MArvel is suddenly doing a crossover with Gw and WH40K
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    The Tau's Caste system isn't equal.
    Non-Tau are treated as unskilled, uneducated idiots. The Tau lie right to their faces, often and repeatedly. But the Tau's lie sounds nicer than the Imperium's reality. That's how they get you.
    The Tau's Ethereal Caste are some of the worst scumbags in the setting. Which is made worse because of the above lies. Chaos just wants to kill you, and tells you to your face.

    The Tau have invaded the Imperium, twice. The response invasions into Damocles are just that, a response. Except that the retaliatory strikes that the Imperium gives, are proportional to the size of the Imperium itself. The Tau are a chihuahua - a barking idiot who bites the ankles of a much bigger dog. A real dog comes along and bites its face off. But, see, it's the chihuahua, who's the victim, right? Because the bigger dog put the smaller dog in its place...But you're not allowed to smack down an underdog. Right? Only an evil person would do that.

    Sometimes, the underdog loses. Because it's woefully inept. Not because the big dog is 'evil'.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Tau are the nicest guys in the universe as long as you totally ignore anything skindeeper about the whole set-up.

    Which annoys me greatly, because they aren't really "good" per se. It's just that the rest of the setting is so grimdark even gray looks stark white in comparison.

    "Good Tau" are up there with "Neutral Tyranids and Orks Are Misunderstood".

    Ofc we can't really delve into much of the whys of where Tau play to the grimdark because it'll end up in forum-forbidden topics in 3 sentences.

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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Tau propaganda says that all castes are equal, Ethereals are wise leaders, and that nontau are treated fairly. Imperial propaganda says the castes are not equal, Ethereals control other Tau via pheremones, and nontau are treated as they they're idiots and steralised. The answer is probably somewhere inbetween, the castes are all equal in the eyes of the law, but there is prejudice there and depending on where you are the different castes are viewed differently (I'd say in the core worlds the Earth caste is seen as better than the Fire caste, for example), and how nontau are treated will depend on where they are.

    The Ethereals are weird. It's basically canon that not only are they using pheremones to control the other castes, but they're manipulating Tau society in a specific direction. The questions are why, how did they aquire their pheremones, and how good are they as leaders? The Tau seem to be a tool of someone, the question is, off who? My money's on some Old One which managed to survive long enough to want to fix their mistakes, and so the found a sentient species and molded them into beings with barely any connection to the Warp.
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    The eldar seem to have a hand in them. OR at least, there's a few hints in that direction.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Also regarding inhumans: disproportionate responses to kidnappings and literally not giving a damn that their magic gas makes mutant powers react out of control and/or just flat out kills mutants.

    When one of the two superconcentrated clouds of terrigen gas got destroyed, the Inhumans got pissed about it while actively refusing to help deal with the second one in a way that didn't require it to be destroyed.

    Not to mention Marvel has been pushing "humans with inhuman ancestry" as a replacement for mutants for a while.

    Though I'm kind of confuses... these are races from radically different settings. There's no reason to compare them unless MArvel is suddenly doing a crossover with Gw and WH40K
    Well, just a comparison that I made on similarity but GW, for its blemishes, do note that some actions (like Space Marines kidnapping people and performing enhancements without giving a worth on what happened to teenaged recruits, or Virus Bombinngs on populated planets under threat) are evil yet “necessary” and are not definitely blind to the misconducts unlike Marvel.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The Tau's Caste system isn't equal.
    Non-Tau are treated as unskilled, uneducated idiots. The Tau lie right to their faces, often and repeatedly. But the Tau's lie sounds nicer than the Imperium's reality. That's how they get you.
    The Tau's Ethereal Caste are some of the worst scumbags in the setting. Which is made worse because of the above lies. Chaos just wants to kill you, and tells you to your face.

    The Tau have invaded the Imperium, twice. The response invasions into Damocles are just that, a response. Except that the retaliatory strikes that the Imperium gives, are proportional to the size of the Imperium itself. The Tau are a chihuahua - a barking idiot who bites the ankles of a much bigger dog. A real dog comes along and bites its face off. But, see, it's the chihuahua, who's the victim, right? Because the bigger dog put the smaller dog in its place...But you're not allowed to smack down an underdog. Right? Only an evil person would do that.

    Sometimes, the underdog loses. Because it's woefully inept. Not because the big dog is 'evil'.
    Chaos totally lies to you, and all the time. In fact it lies more often then it tells the truth. Stuff like 'sure this is corruptive and could cost your soul, but you can handle it', or 'we've got your best interests at heart,' and basically whatever lie is needed to get you to fall to Chaos. For that matter, Chaos doesn't want to kill you, except for Khorne.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Tau propaganda says that all castes are equal, Ethereals are wise leaders, and that nontau are treated fairly. Imperial propaganda says the castes are not equal, Ethereals control other Tau via pheremones, and nontau are treated as they they're idiots and steralised. The answer is probably somewhere inbetween, the castes are all equal in the eyes of the law, but there is prejudice there and depending on where you are the different castes are viewed differently (I'd say in the core worlds the Earth caste is seen as better than the Fire caste, for example), and how nontau are treated will depend on where they are.
    Yeah, this. Just like not all Imperial worlds are hellholes and not every Imperial general is a genocidal monster---but reasonable and boring isn't what looks good on posters, so that stuff is always pushed into the background in favor of emphasizing the Grim Darkness. There are undoubtedly Tau leaders who believe the Greater Good means the best in everyone and try to treat everyone under their governorship fairly, just like there are no doubt many (esp. in the Fire caste) who've been so traumatized by encounters with Orks, Tyrannids and Chaos they no longer believe in coexisting with anyone.

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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    The eldar seem to have a hand in them. OR at least, there's a few hints in that direction.
    I remember it being fairly clear that somebody's done something, back when I still kept up with the lore the Codex basically stated the Ethereals just appeared like magic one day, but I never got to the lore that implied who. Eldar are a good guess actually, both Craftworld and Dark Eldar certainly have the technology to alter a species like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by t209 View Post
    Well, just a comparison that I made on similarity but GW, for its blemishes, do note that some actions (like Space Marines kidnapping people and performing enhancements without giving a worth on what happened to teenaged recruits, or Virus Bombinngs on populated planets under threat) are evil yet “necessary” and are not definitely blind to the misconducts unlike Marvel.
    Remember the the 40k universe might not be actively hostile, but the equivalent of hyperspace is (at least these days), and it's still the safest method of FTL travel, and enough alien species are xenocidal enough (the Necrons, Tyrannids, and Orks in particular), manipulative enough (Craftworld Eldar), or just plain evil enough (Dark Eldar, beings of Chaos) that first response to a sentient species being xenocide isn't entirely unreasonable. The Imperium commits a lot more necessary evils because they're the largest faction in terms of controlled space in the galaxy (the 'Nids and Orks likely have them beat on pure numbers) and it's just difficult to manage all of that. The Inquisition, although it does a lot of stuff that most would likely label as evil does keep the Imperium from fracturing into smaller empires that wouldn't stand up to a full Black Crusade or a Necron awakening.

    The Imperium is also not stupid, and has learnt from it's mistakes. There's a lot of temptation in having an entire army of bioaugmented soldiers to fight your wars, but the Imperium has enough (despite what the lore says it's likely closer to 1,010,000 than a straight million) that they'll make the difference when deployed and then splits them into units that the Imperial Guard could in theory contain in case they went Heretic, because that did happen to almost half the Space Marines ten thousand years ago and the effects can still be seen. It allows the Adeptus Machinicus to have command over technology and worship what is actually an illegal religion, because they know they don't have the ability to actually wipe out the order (who does benefit with access to the increased resources of the Imperium). Sure, occasionally a planet gets lost because somebody discovers they haven't paid taxes in 2000 years and a rash commander ordered Exterminatus when the governer expressed shock at the final value, but not only is that relatively rare such a commander would be reprimanded for destroying a valuable asset.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piedmon_Sama View Post
    Yeah, this. Just like not all Imperial worlds are hellholes and not every Imperial general is a genocidal monster---but reasonable and boring isn't what looks good on posters, so that stuff is always pushed into the background in favor of emphasizing the Grim Darkness. There are undoubtedly Tau leaders who believe the Greater Good means the best in everyone and try to treat everyone under their governorship fairly, just like there are no doubt many (esp. in the Fire caste) who've been so traumatized by encounters with Orks, Tyrannids and Chaos they no longer believe in coexisting with anyone.
    I think what really helped me was realising that each Codex is written from the point of view of the faction, and most of the novels are Imperium-biased. Each faction presents itself in the best light, if you took the Eldar at their face value like you can with the Tau they suddenly become a much more heroic faction, instead of a dying people doing almost anything to survive (while the Dark Eldar are the ones doing literally anything to survive). But people seem to realise that the Orks aren't literally a barrel of laughs as much as they realise that the Tau have to vary with an Empire that large, and that those who disagree with their ideals will not enjoy it there.

    It's especially weird as we mostly see the Fire caste, who should be the most jaded and cynnical of the castes through a mixture of being the ones fighting all these wars with hostile aliens and likely not being as well respected on worlds where there's not that much to fight.

    Baator, the Ethereal caste in and off itself proves that the Tau aren't above being hypocrites, 'all castes are equal, except for the special caste more equal than everybody else'. Although I think their big thing is more 'everybody has a role' than 'all castes are equal', and there are certainly benefits to being good at your job.

    (Although my favourite aspect of the Tau is the platonic group marriages. It's one of those elements that is familiar enough and yet alien enough to be interesting.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    "All Codex show their faction in the best light"

    Except for Imperial Guard. I remember distinctly quite a few Stories in the IG Codex that paint pictures of massive incompetence, Pyrrhic Victories and great losses.

    The Tau are not good and while I'm not really "in" on the most up to date Lore, I actually remember several mentions in one of the old Codex, that says that all Castes are in fact equal and everyone is respected regardless of their position or role in society. The exception to this are obviously the revered Ethereal Caste. For the rest of the Tau society it is pretty much true though. My reasoning for this is, that the "everyone is equal" propaganda is not only streamed to the Imperium and other aliens, but also to the Tau themselves, their entire society seems to be based around that idea. Also the castes are dependent on one another, this co-dependence plus the propaganda leads me to believe that this kind of Equality and Value for each and everyone is pretty much the truth.

    The flipside of this, is that while everyone is equal there is probably very, very little individual freedom and each citizen is more or less state property in the Tau Empire. Every Tau is expected to sacrifice themselves for the Greater Good. In fact, in that aspect the Tau society isn't that different from the Imperium, with the difference that the Imperium asks you to lay down your life for the God Emporer, the Tau ask their people to lay down your life for the society, your brothers and sisters.

    I wouldn't say that the Tau are really all that good, but I think if I had to choose a society in WH40k to live in it would be the Tau Empire.

    Also of interest to note: While small, the Tau are arguably the most technology progressive faction. They are far younger than any other race, but have developed technology that far can keep up with or even far surpass that of other factions. The Tau even understand the Imperial SCTs better than the gearheads on Mars.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahe View Post
    Also of interest to note: While small, the Tau are arguably the most technology progressive faction. They are far younger than any other race, but have developed technology that far can keep up with or even far surpass that of other factions. The Tau even understand the Imperial SCTs better than the gearheads on Mars.
    The problem is, the Tau are rapidly reaching the upper limits of their empire as they're constrained by their significantly slower FTL drives and communications, compared to the Warp/Webway usage by the other races.

    While they could expand further, it would most likely result in the breaking up of the Tau Empire into multiple smaller organisations, something which is unlikely to be permitted by the Ethereal caste.

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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    The problem is, the Tau are rapidly reaching the upper limits of their empire as they're constrained by their significantly slower FTL drives and communications, compared to the Warp/Webway usage by the other races.

    While they could expand further, it would most likely result in the breaking up of the Tau Empire into multiple smaller organisations, something which is unlikely to be permitted by the Ethereal caste.
    The Tau no longer have FTL, its been retconned. So their Empire is friggin tiny.

    As for the Inhumans, i agree. You cant just have them replace Mutants as your "generic hero power source" becuase the only baggage mutants had was "people hate us" instead of "Rigid Caste System with a King who fluctuates between evil jackass and total bro and near genocidal contempt for non Inhumans". It also doenst help that Inhumans arent very well known.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Do the tau not still 'skim' the warp, getting much slower but more reliable FTL?
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Do the tau not still 'skim' the warp, getting much slower but more reliable FTL?
    It was retconned that Tau don't have FTL at all. I'm sure it's a case of really bad writing and even worse research, but, it's canon.

    Near-lightspeed. Hopefully they mean something like 1.1c, rather than 0.9c.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It was retconned that Tau don't have FTL at all. I'm sure it's a case of really bad writing and even worse research, but, it's canon.

    Near-lightspeed. Hopefully they mean something like 1.1c, rather than 0.9c.
    Wow that is dumb. We'll see how the new codex changes things when it comes out.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It was retconned that Tau don't have FTL at all. I'm sure it's a case of really bad writing and even worse research, but, it's canon.

    Near-lightspeed. Hopefully they mean something like 1.1c, rather than 0.9c.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    I remember it being fairly clear that somebody's done something, back when I still kept up with the lore the Codex basically stated the Ethereals just appeared like magic one day, but I never got to the lore that implied who. Eldar are a good guess actually, both Craftworld and Dark Eldar certainly have the technology to alter a species like that.
    There's been more hints than that. I don't remember the sources, but the Eldar once found a species of hive-minded insects, where the queens controlled their workers with a pheromone gland in their heads. And they experimented on them. Then the same Eldar were seen near the Tau homeworld just before they really took off.
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It was retconned that Tau don't have FTL at all. I'm sure it's a case of really bad writing and even worse research, but, it's canon.

    Near-lightspeed. Hopefully they mean something like 1.1c, rather than 0.9c.
    Wow.

    I mean, you can have an interstellar civilisation without FTL travel, Revelation Space uses it as a worldbuilding component, but you're not going to have an empire unless you're in a very dense cluster where the average distance between stars is less than a light year. I wonder how it works, I remember Tau being from a low-g world so if it involves continuous acceleration at more than 1g then it's going to pulp it's crew and passengers (of course, if it's anywhere as efficient as a RS lighthugger once it hits 0.9c it can probably reduce it's acceleration to a standard tau gravity and be a pleasant environment). If it quickly reaches near lightspeed travel then ouch, that'll probably pulp most or, Lexicanum has no page on Inertial Compensators.

    Although remember that 40k writers tend to not have a great sense of scale. I'm currently writing stories in a setting where the ancient and technologically advanced aliens can send ships at ~7c and information at ~12c, humans are limited to 3c* for both, and it radically changes everything. Most colony worlds are fully self governing, especially once they've paid off the corporation that sponsored them, and interstellar war is regarded by everybody as too expensive (in time and money). You really need to be getting to other inhabitable stars in days or weeks rather than years to have anything like an interstellar empire or war.

    * originally they could only hit about 1.01c, but there's been improvements.
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Not having FTL really makes no sense. But looking at recent developments in the Warhammer 40k lore, there have been a lot of troubling things going on. I haven't followed it to closely, but apparently an Eldar Witch revived Roboute Guillaume and some Tech Magos figured out how to make new AND better Space Marines? And why the hell is the Roboute as tall as Dreadnought?

    Eh, this is all off-topic.
    From August 22nd to August 28th I'm at GamesCom, so expect low activity and I'm not sure if I'll be able to post.

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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    All Primarchs are that tall. They are to Space Marines what Marines are to humans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Although remember that 40k writers tend to not have a great sense of scale.
    Also that Warp travel works at the speed of plot.

    Your reinforcements might be three weeks out or Space Magic might happen and they arrive three weeks before they set off (at which point they were all executed for desertion because they weren't supposed to be here yet) or in three centuries time.

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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahe View Post
    Not having FTL really makes no sense. But looking at recent developments in the Warhammer 40k lore, there have been a lot of troubling things going on. I haven't followed it to closely, but apparently an Eldar Witch revived Roboute Guillaume and some Tech Magos figured out how to make new AND better Space Marines? And why the hell is the Roboute as tall as Dreadnought?

    Eh, this is all off-topic.
    Yup to both those things. Yvraine (the Eldar in question) is empowered by Ynnard the Eldar god of death and can do some really crazy stuff. They rez'd Guilliman because the Eldar needed someone to be a meat shield against Abbadon. And the Tau are too weak to do so. So overall it makes sense.

    Cawl (who has apparently been working on Primaris Space Marines for the last 10 000 years) did 'improve' the Space Marines, and it's pretty bad. Rule wise they more or less suck, and story wise it doesn't seem to make too much sense.
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    I don't care about RAW. I only care about RAI (Rules as Interpreted/Intended), RACS (Rules as Common Sense) and RAF (Rules as Fun).

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    Default Re: Of Tau and Inhumans: Same yet you want to root for Tau.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Yup to both those things. Yvraine (the Eldar in question) is empowered by Ynnard the Eldar god of death and can do some really crazy stuff. They rez'd Guilliman because the Eldar needed someone to be a meat shield against Abbadon. And the Tau are too weak to do so. So overall it makes sense.

    Cawl (who has apparently been working on Primaris Space Marines for the last 10 000 years) did 'improve' the Space Marines, and it's pretty bad. Rule wise they more or less suck, and story wise it doesn't seem to make too much sense.
    Well,
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    Depending if Cawl is actually Arkhan Land and the "Primaris Marines" being sucessful variant of Corax's space marines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    As for the Inhumans, i agree. You cant just have them replace Mutants as your "generic hero power source" becuase the only baggage mutants had was "people hate us" instead of "Rigid Caste System with a King who fluctuates between evil jackass and total bro and near genocidal contempt for non Inhumans". It also doenst help that Inhumans arent very well known.
    Well, currently, they are a democracy--or at least a Constitutional Monarchy--after IvX, which they realized that the Smartest person named Moon Girl to actually figure out how to remove the fart gas with vacuum and storage (*cough* like any almost Marvel people can actually point that out rather than unneccesary drama about endangerment (despite having tons of people) and oppression (typical Marvel civilian* stupidity like "Hey, folks are gaining super powers but half of them are horrible monsters, oh well, let's get mutants anywhere") *cough*).
    * Trust me, if Tau ever came to Marvel Earth, every civilians would paint themselves blue and get vasectomy before a Water caste ambassador arrives (like Cap!Hydra, Marvel Civil War I and II, and Siege).
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