Belkar's Character Development?

[Fyraltari]

That's a totally valid third option, though I choose to believe that all characters have Free Will, and the prophecies don't lock futures in place so much as they explain ahead of time what will happen if a character freely chooses the actions that they ultimately do.

Same but with a "when" instead of that "if".

[Lethologica]

Personally, I'm open to the possibility that the Oracle's prophecy about Belkar will be subverted (i.e. it'll become true in a non-obvious way), but I've never seen anyone ever suggest a theory that met all the criteria ("not long for this world", "last breath - ever", the cake, etc) and that didn't hinge on the Oracle being wrong or outright lying.

Belkar becomes a lich (or something along those lines since he can't actually be a lich) in SnarlWorld. No lungs, no taste, no presence in this world, his IRA is here so funding it would be pointless, no problem.

(I don't think that's happening, but at least it fits what we've been told.)

[Peelee]

In that case, there's your theory for how Belkar gets out of his prophecy: Prophecies themselves are mutable. Not ultimately likely to happen without some kind of outside intervention, though.

Nope; Fyraltari is right, I used "if" instead of "when." Prophecies are not mutable. They foretell what will happen. Free Will is the vehicle used to reach the destination, but the destination is set.

[RatElemental]

Nope; Fyraltari is right, I used "if" instead of "when." Prophecies are not mutable. They foretell what will happen. Free Will is the vehicle used to reach the destination, but the destination is set.

Then what was your objection to my "The oracle saw it coming but couldn't change it" idea in the first place? He knew the destination, and every individual moment that led up to it and still got caught on his way to the bath because it was foretold to happen. (Assuming he bothered to predict that particular instance)

We're getting into some very strange philosophical waters here in general with the prophecies, though. Is it still free will if it can't possibly be changed, after all? And on top of that, if the end result is already known? Does a cog in the machine freely choose to turn, when its turning is both caused by the cogs before it, and the end result of its turning can be predicted with enough knowledge of the machine it is a part of?

Now replace each cog with "decision at a particular moment in time."

[Peelee]

Then what was your objection to my "The oracle saw it coming but couldn't change it" idea in the first place?

I didn't object to it?

That's a totally valid third option

ETA: I was just saying how I saw that third option playing out. I absolutely agree that that is what is happening, I just think that is and Free Will are not mutually exclusive. Which is highly debatable, at the very least.

[RatElemental]

I didn't object to it?

ETA: I was just saying how I saw that third option playing out. I absolutely agree that that is what is happening, I just think that is and Free Will are not mutually exclusive. Which is highly debatable, at the very least.

Fair enough, I misinterpreted your position then. Sorry about that.

[Peelee]

Fair enough, I misinterpreted your position then. Sorry about that.

Not your problem. I could have written it more clearly.

[Fyraltari]

Thanks, Fyraltari!

You're welcome. To be honest I read your post the same way RatElemental did and was stating my position.

Free Will is the vehicle used to reach the destination, but the destination is set.

I really like that wording, almost signed it.

We're getting into some very strange philosophical waters here in general with the prophecies, though. Is it still free will if it can't possibly be changed, after all? And on top of that, if the end result is already known? Does a cog in the machine freely choose to turn, when its turning is both caused by the cogs before it, and the end result of its turning can be predicted with enough knowledge of the machine it is a part of?

Now replace each cog with "decision at a particular moment in time."

That's a deep one, isn't it? How about that : if we cannot know how all the cogs in our minds turn, does it really matter if our actions are determined? After all, we were still the one who made our choices, even if we could not make any other because of who we are.

[RatElemental]

That's a deep one, isn't it? How about that : if we cannot know how all the cogs in our minds turn, does it really matter if our actions are determined? After all, we were still the one who made our choices, even if we could not make any other because of who we are.

Maybe not. I'm not disputing that it is will, it's only the free part that's in question. But as you point out the free part may not be all that necessary.

[Winterhorn]

Do we know what the worls inside the snarl is like? No.
Maybe the world inside is a trap the snarl uses to lure people in and/or to get them to free it.
Anyways, maybe the world inside has an environment like valhalla.

[Ruck]

Hrmmm...
I never thought about it like that.
I only have a gut feeling, and we know how gut feelings turn out.
My gut is also extremely biased, and may not be working correctly because of my Crohn's disease...

"My gut is telling me no... But my gut is also very hungry..."

I recommend probiotics for gut distress.

[Mandor]

For all we know, the prophecy could be subverted by Belkar being sent back in time 2000 years by a Weeping Angel, and then live out a long life in the past, but his chronologically last breath ever is still coming up soon.

Not.
Bloody.
Likely.

I'm firmly in the camp that he's GOING to die. Truly die. Either being UNMADE in the process, or dying and staying dead.
And that his afterlife, if exists + is shown, will not be all smiles and sunshine and cooking for Mr. Scruffy.

Not every character, no matter how beloved, or well portrayed, actually deserves a happy ending. Belkar has been a rat bastard for a very long time now. Casually murdering non-hostiles to take their stuff, or because it would be funny, or just to piss someone off. And was totally down with (and suggested!) selling people into slavery. I don't think he's going to have a get-out-of-jail free card. I don't see him pulling out a last minute redemption like in "This is the End". But I suppose we will all find out soon enough.

[Winterhorn]

You are correct, I'm too biased to believe it will happen.

[Kish]

Up for a wager? 20 gold says Belkar will die and stay dead.

[Winterhorn]

Up for a wager? 20 gold says Belkar will die and stay dead.

I'll bet 20 gp.

[Emanick]

I'll bet 20 gp.

Just FYI, at the current price of gold and the weight of the average gold piece according to the Player's Handbook, that's a roughly $8,087 wager you just accepted.

[Peelee]

Just FYI, at the current price of gold and the weight of the average gold piece according to the Player's Handbook, that's a roughly $8,087 wager you just accepted.

Psh. They bet ten times that in Caddyshack.

[Winterhorn]

Just FYI, at the current price of gold and the weight of the average gold piece according to the Player's Handbook, that's a roughly $8,087 wager you just accepted.

I explicitly remember saying I bet 20 GP's

[Ruck]

Just FYI, at the current price of gold and the weight of the average gold piece according to the Player's Handbook, that's a roughly $8,087 wager you just accepted.

Ah, but how much is it in Bitcoin? I'll need hourly updates.

[Winterhorn]

I bet Haley knows...

[Peelee]

Ah, but how much is it in Bitcoin? I'll need hourly updates.

Welp, this threads been won.

[Fyraltari]

I bet Haley knows...

Money that you cannot lovingly caress and make shine? Haley has nightmares about that.

[Winterhorn]

Money that you cannot lovingly caress and make shine? Haley has nightmares about that.

She cares that you can trade it for gold.

[GreatKaiserNui]

What if Rich just genuinely accidentally forgets about it?

[Fyraltari]

What if Rich just genuinely accidentally forgets about it?

Yeah I doubt The Giant will forget the arc of one of his six main characters. He's been planning Durkon's vampirization since strip n°3, you know.

[RatElemental]

A theory on what will happen in a work that relies on an author's incompetence doesn't strike me as a very good theory in general. Any work it would apply to probably wouldn't be much of a good read anyway.

[Kish]

See, now, I see the logic in "Rich may have forgotten Fyron's son" or (until recently) "Rich probably forgot all about Hilgya."

I don't see the logic in "Rich may have forgotten that he's repeatedly indicated one of the six main characters will be dead within what is now a few weeks."

[oonker]

See, now, I see the logic in "Rich may have forgotten Fyron's son" or (until recently) "Rich probably forgot all about Hilgya."

I don't see the logic in "Rich may have forgotten that he's repeatedly indicated one of the six main characters will be dead within what is now a few weeks."

Speaking of which, is there a Belkar countdown clock somewhere?

In this strip, Roy mentions that if Belkar's shenanigans do not improve in 7 weeks, he'll be "somebody else's problem".

Has anyone tried tracking how many more days our little bugger can count on this side of life?

Edit - Just realized that Roy talks about Belkar's fate in strip 666.

[Mercedette]

Perhaps quite a bit too optimistic, but until I'm proven wrong, I'm going to assume that the prophecy is fulfilled by Belkar's character development being so extreme that he's essentially a new person. Or ala Reincarnation.

Then when I am proven wrong, I am going to go bawl for a few hours about how Redemption = Death is the worst trope evar.

[hamishspence]

Perhaps quite a bit too optimistic, but until I'm proven wrong, I'm going to assume that the prophecy is fulfilled by Belkar's character development being so extreme that he's essentially a new person. Or ala Reincarnation.

From the way The Oracle was talking - that does seem a bit optimistic.

Has anyone tried tracking how many more days our little bugger can count on this side of life?

Yes.

http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline


Strip 666 is apparently "Day 358" with the current one being "Day 387". So, just over 4 weeks (29 days) have gone by - with just under 3 weeks (20 days) to go.

Roy's "Let's see - 7 weeks" may also be an approximation allowing for a couple of days or so each way.