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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Belkar's Character Development?

    First of all, I think his development as a character has been a masterful slow burn. I also think that he's gradually becoming a neutral-aligned character.
    Second, he's no longer completely "faking it" as he was advised to do by Shojo. Forgive me for not having any links, but:

    ~His relationship with Mr. Scruffy, most notably the time he healed Mr. Scruffy instead of immediately hunting for the man who hurt him.

    ~The shopkeep who offered to get lunch with him after he "did her a favor" and bought the "defective" protection from evil charm at half price.

    ~"He didn't blame me." Nuff said.

    ~Lastly, is the PFE object he uses hurting him less? Just a thought after reading the latest comic... he doesn't seem to be as uncomfortable activating it as he was when he first bought it.

    So what do you fans think? Travelling north of evil, or faking it?

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    It's pretty clear that Belkar is not as Evil as he used to be. I still think he's evil though, just not as much. In my eyes he won't be Neutral as long as he has not at least :

    1) Committed some kind of sacrifice (ie make a good act that costs him something for selfless reasons).

    2) Expressed regret over his past crimes.

    And even then it would still be a long way to go. Redemption is rare thing after all.


    I would also like to point out that there are people who argues he has been CN the entire time.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    And even then it would still be a long way to go. Redemption is rare thing after all.
    It is indeed a rare and special thing.
    I would also like to point out that there are people who argues he has been CN the entire time.
    Even though I recall Rich having clarified the CE unambiguously.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-11-21 at 12:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by whispersofaqua View Post
    ~His relationship with Mr. Scruffy, most notably the time he healed Mr. Scruffy instead of immediately hunting for the man who hurt him.

    ~The shopkeep who offered to get lunch with him after he "did her a favor" and bought the "defective" protection from evil charm at half price.

    ~"He didn't blame me." Nuff said.

    ~Lastly, is the PFE object he uses hurting him less? Just a thought after reading the latest comic... he doesn't seem to be as uncomfortable activating it as he was when he first bought it.

    So what do you fans think? Travelling north of evil, or faking it?
    1 - evil people do have feelings and care for loved ones. Love is not inherently evil. Sabine, for example, is a being born of evil, but loves Nale.

    2 - He tricked the shopkeep into having loss in a sale, by selling him the product at half price. Refusing to go on a date with her is not necessarily a good act.

    3 - To blame oneself is not inherently evil.

    4 - The first time he was surprised with the pain (he did not expect it). I don't think he is less uncomfortable, I just think he is more prepared for the pain.

    But I do agree with you that he is faking less.

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by oonker View Post
    Love is not inherently evil.
    Please defend this insane statement.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by oonker View Post
    Love is not inherently evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by oonker View Post
    To blame oneself is not inherently evil.

    Bizarro disagrees.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2017-11-21 at 02:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    I always think that Belkar is not "only" less evil, but that he's wiser. I wait to see if he'll ever cast a spell.

    Being wiser means being less evil for him, we saw it in early strips. He is evil now, yes, but it's different being an evil mass murderer who live to make other suffer, and being an evil antihero who makes more evil guys suffer while saving the world.

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Synesthesy View Post
    I always think that Belkar is not "only" less evil, but that he's wiser. I wait to see if he'll ever cast a spell.

    Being wiser means being less evil for him, we saw it in early strips. He is evil now, yes, but it's different being an evil mass murderer who live to make other suffer, and being an evil antihero who makes more evil guys suffer while saving the world.
    Yeah, I think his wisdom score increased some. Not enough for him to be neutral, but enough so that he behaves in way that actually benefit him in the long-term.

    There are really people who argue that he's neutral? It has been a running gag that he is evil ever since that spell against good-aligned people didn't affect him. And he's still visibly affected by his protection from evil clasp. (To me it looks like he is extra angry at the vampires because they forced him to activate this item and be hurt by it)

    It is an interesting philosophical question whether he can become neutral by mere conditioning - he is fully aware that the clasp only hurts him because he is evil, and becoming less evil would be the wisest course of action. But does it "count" if he only does it to avoid pain?

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    I'm of the opinion that the reason Rich had Belkar get a protection from evil item is to prove whether or not he's evil every time he uses it.

    Whether or not we'll ever see it not burning him, I can't say, though I still hold hope that it will happen. It will likely be while in the process of making a heroic sacrifice, or directly after doing so, if it ever comes to pass.

    Or it could still burn him, even as he does make such a sacrifice, just to drive home the point of how hard it is to come back from the type of evil Belkar has engaged in.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2017-11-21 at 07:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Imagine if Belkar somehow actually ends up turning Good. I can see Roy's next review when he dies again: Deva: "Roy, when I put down your association with Belkar Bitterleaf as an attempt to redeem and evildoer, I never guessed that you'd actually manage to pull it off! Congratulations!"

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Please defend this insane statement.
    oonker probably meant "love is not inherently good".

    I think he's moving towards Chaotic Neutral, but he's not there yet. It might take years (in real life) before he gets there, though I do think he'll eventually get there (perhaps right before his death).

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    And even then it would still be a long way to go. Redemption is rare thing after all..
    Alignment shift is not the same as redemption however.

    I believe that Belkar is currently truly commited to saving Durkon and his reasons are above revenge or defying Roy. He truly cares for Durkon now, something totaly unimaginable few hundred strips ago. If it is enough to shift him to CN I don´t know, but i do certainly enjoy this new Belkar.

    He does seem to act with much more wisdom than he used to - the pyramid escape, getting the ring despite it hurts him etc.

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by whispersofaqua View Post
    I also think that he's gradually becoming a neutral-aligned character.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    In order to be Neutral you need to either a.) commit no Good or Evil acts at all, or b.) commit a more-or-less equal number of Good and Evil acts. Not c.) commit a boatload of Evil acts without guilt or regret and no Good acts except those he is bullied into.

    A partial list of Evil acts Belkar has performed or attempted to perform:
    • Harvesting someone's kidneys who was no threat and had a Good alignment.
    • Selling an attractive young woman into slavery
    • Slitting the throats of helpless people
    • Trying to kill an ally strictly to level up
    • Killing three barbarians when he only needed to defeat (not kill) one of them
    • Professing a desire to go back and kill his family and childhood friends in their sleep
    • Throwing daggers at Roy just for fun
    But it's cool though, he's nicer now?
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    oonker probably meant "love is not inherently good".

    I think he's moving towards Chaotic Neutral, but he's not there yet. It might take years (in real life) before he gets there, though I do think he'll eventually get there (perhaps right before his death).
    Yeah, kinda messed the words up there, that's what I meant. Thanks for helping out! :)

    Love is not on the good/bad spectrum. Love is just love, and it can fuel good altruistic emotions, as well as evil ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys
    It is an interesting philosophical question whether he can become neutral by mere conditioning - he is fully aware that the clasp only hurts him because he is evil, and becoming less evil would be the wisest course of action. But does it "count" if he only does it to avoid pain?
    I think there's a quote from the Giant somewhere, that there are no "tendencies" on the alignment chart. You either are or aren't one of the alignments, and the intention behind your actions are not at stake, just your actions per se. If he performed good deeds, he would become (at some point) good, even if moved by personal reasons.

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    But it's cool though, he's nicer now?
    A genuine change in outlook and attitude is one of the most important steps towards redemption. It's one Belkar is still stumbling on though, and I sort of doubt we'll ever see him fully take it. Fully expect that clasp to only confirm he's evil right to the end, but Rich has surprised me before.

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    A genuine change in outlook and attitude is one of the most important steps towards redemption.
    I hear Dexter Morgan was a charmer. Kept killing for some reason though. I think it was because he liked it.

    I wonder if Belkar likes killing.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattheius View Post
    Alignment shift is not the same as redemption however.
    When that alignment shift is going north on the good-evil axis is it not ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I hear Dexter Morgan was a charmer. Kept killing for some reason though. I think it was because he liked it.

    I wonder if Belkar likes killing.
    Belkar has recently realized that there's nothing inherently funny in the death of a good man.

    Belkar becoming nicer is but a symptom of his newfound caring for others. Very little caring to very few others indeed but that's still a step in the right direction. I don't believe there is such a thing as a truly evil person (no, not even the one you are thinking of right now) and that anyone can redeem themselves for what they did (yes even that one) even if very few do. That's my worldview, not necessarily the Giant's but since he intends this comic to express his views about the world, I strongly suspect that if the Giant thinks redemption ispossible for any and everyone then Belkar will find his, and if he does not believe that he will not. And I trust the Giant to deliver a great story either way.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by oonker View Post
    Love is not on the good/bad spectrum. Love is just love, and it can fuel good altruistic emotions, as well as evil ones.
    I think you are confusing love with desire, but I'll not derail in that direction since Belkar loves only Belkar, and maybe Mr Scruffy. He desires hookers, apparently.



    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental
    A genuine change in outlook and attitude is one of the most important steps towards redemption. It's one Belkar is still stumbling on though, and I sort of doubt we'll ever see him fully take it. Fully expect that clasp to only confirm he's evil right to the end, but Rich has surprised me before.
    Heh, here's Irony for you. Belkar(CE) eventually achieves redemption, while Miko (LG) never did. I can see Rich doing that ...
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-11-22 at 12:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    A man that he cared about, you mean.

    Evil does not have to be cartoonish. Evil characters do not have to burn down every orphanage they see. Evil characters can still care about people.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Consider the following example: In an old campaign, I had introduced two completely evil villains. Both had plans to conquer the world, and I had let the PCs know that they had known each other a century earlier. When the players discovered that they were working together, they couldn't understand it. "Why help each other?" they asked themselves, "It would make more sense to go it alone."

    "Wait," said one player, "I bet that one is planning on helping the other up to a point, and then turning on him." They all agreed that this must be the reason for their alliance, and even formulated a plan to "warn" the lesser of the two evils about the other's presumed treachery. This was a solution that was arrived at by a fairly logical process, but it was completely and utterly incorrect. What the players had failed to consider was that the two villains were simply friends.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A man that he cared about, you mean.

    Evil does not have to be cartoonish. Evil characters do not have to burn down every orphanage they see. Evil characters can still care about people.

    Oh yeah, such good friends these two.


    Seriously though. I am not arguing that Belkar is good man (because he is not) I am arguing that people can change and that he is better than he was before he first set foot in Azure City.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Belkar Knows that That Isn't Durkon. He was friends with Durkon, and he knows / senses that the vamp isn't Durkon. He saw the whole conversion process.

    On a more humorous note, more evidence that he knows it isn't Durkon ... last panel.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-11-22 at 12:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Belkar Knows that That Isn't Durkon. He was friends with Durkon, and he knows / senses that the vamp isn't Durkon. He saw the whole conversion process.

    On a more humorous note, more evidence that he knows it isn't Durkon ... last panel.
    I meant panels 2 and 3.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I meant panels 2 and 3.
    heh, OK, I see the joke you were pointing at.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post

    Oh yeah, such good friends these two.


    Seriously though. I am not arguing that Belkar is good man (because he is not) I am arguing that people can change and that he is better than he was before he first set foot in Azure City.
    Yes, it's almost as if Durkon saving Belkar made an impression an Belkar.

    I'm not saying that he isn't better than he was before Azure City. I'm saying that "better than he used to be" is still one helluva ways away from Neutral.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, it's almost as if Durkon saving Belkar made an impression an Belkar.

    I'm not saying that he isn't better than he was before Azure City. I'm saying that "better than he used to be" is still one helluva ways away from Neutral.
    Oh. We agree then. Good.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2017-11-22 at 04:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I think you are confusing love with desire, but I'll not derail in that direction since Belkar loves only Belkar, and maybe Mr Scruffy. He desires hookers, apparently.

    Heh, here's Irony for you. Belkar(CE) eventually achieves redemption, while Miko (LG) never did. I can see Rich doing that ...
    Sabine is literally formed out of evil. Sabine was very much in love with Nale.

    Love won't be Belk's salvation, especially not romantic love. As to whether he crosses that fine line between E and N on the alignment chart, that's more up in the air. Safe money says it'll either be immediately before his ultimate demise (probably powered by the same decision that causes said demise), or else that his death will happen before his northward progress reaches that point.

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    While I think that Sabine, being wholly evil, looks at love as possession, I appreciate that there are other ways to see her "on camera" actions. (See about about minute 2:00 on the music video). I see Sabine taking a very proprietary interest in Nale, even though she points out to him that she has intimate relations with great frequency when they are not together. (Which is semi understandable, with her being a succubus ...)

    So I've Learned That Love's Not Possession
    And I've Learned That Love Won't Wait
    Now I've Learned That Love Needs Expression
    But I Learned Too Late


    See also this lovely poem.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-11-22 at 05:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    I tend to believe Nale and Sabine when they say they're Evil but their relationship is healthy.

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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    They litterally have to sacrifice people to make it work. That's not healthy.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2017-11-22 at 05:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Belkar's Character Development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Oh. We agree then. Good.
    Assuming you're not arguing that Belkar is becoming Neutral, yes.
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