Paladins Divine Sense usefulness

[Tanarii]

I just had a player complain to me that the Paladins Divine Sense is "useless". He maintains that because it can't detect anything behind total cover, you'll almost always know where the creature is, or it's not worth the action to use it (in combat).

Now, my campaign does tend to be underground a lot, especially at lower levels, which limits its usefulness in terms of things being behind total cover a lot. But I pointed out its still useful for creatures in concealment, which includes forest or high brush as well as darkness / fog. Not exactly uncommon in wilderness adventure locations. As well as detecting disguised creatures, and invisible or concealed (but not behind cover) ones that are being stealthy.

Still, it doesn't get a ton of use. I'm curious, for those of you who play Paladins or regularly game with them, what are some situations where you've seen it used in play? And how commonly do you see it used?

[mephnick]

I've only seen it used once to great effect. Too bad I didn't read it close enough and it was only used to great effect because everything was in total cover which I revealed and didn't know I ****ed up until now.

Oops.

[The Cats]

Dude found out the friendly mayor was a rakshasa 4 levels too early. Did not think that one through.

I mean, you've already listed all the best uses for it. When we had a paladin in the party he used it whenever something like that came up. Maybe not every session, but it's not like it's a core ability. Practically a ribbon.

All the uses you said it is useful for, it is useful for. Not being handy in every situation is not the same as being useless. Don't sweat it.

[Jerrykhor]

"Useless"? He obviously has not seen Find Traps.

The thing about detecting disguised creatures is, if the DM doesnt want you to detect it, he/she can always come up with a reason, something like, 'this one's different', or 'its not disguised, its transformed', etc. So I would say yes, its uses are quite limited, because fiends and undead generally don't try to hide or go invisible. But it is far from useless.

[Arkhios]

"Useless"? He obviously has not seen Find Traps.

Well, Find Traps is a spell, and thus it's kinda like "optional class feature" for those classes able to cast it. In that vein, Divine Sense is more "useless" as a class feature. However, as a devoted paladin player, I tend to ignore the feature most of the time, because it is, in my opinion, a very obvious Ribbon; It has its uses, but it takes a tad more creativity from the player to find those uses. Lay on Hands on the other hand is pretty damn powerful ability on its own, because it's not a spell, and can work under anti-magic effects for example. Paladin's 1st level would work just fine with only Lay on Hands and not be underpowered.

The thing about detecting disguised creatures is, if the DM doesnt want you to detect it, he/she can always come up with a reason, something like, 'this one's different', or 'its not disguised, its transformed', etc. So I would say yes, its uses are quite limited, because fiends and undead generally don't try to hide or go invisible. But it is far from useless.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Many fiends and intelligent undead (mostly vampires) are deceitful by nature, and if they have the ability to disguise themselves, turn invisible, or hide, they just might favor that approach. Just because a creature is of type X doesn't mean they are bloodthirsty berserkers which attack on first sight. Besides, if a DM blatantly describes creatures as 'this one's different' or 'it's not disguised, it's transformed', the DM is providing metaknowledge for the players, which shouldn't happen if you do your job right.

[Pex]

In my paladin game I have found that when I used it and don't detect anything has also been sometimes useful. The campaign deals with fiends often. For selfish reasons alone when I know I'm not dealing with a fiendish creature and definitely not undead I'll conserve my smites more. If it's a big sack of hit points monster I'll smite once or twice, but I'd rather save them for the fiends and undead. When I do detect a fiend I and the party know whom I'll be rushing to get in their face.

[Hyde]

My players found an illusory wall containing a hallowed chest within which is the Hand of Vecna.

So... mixed usefulness, there.

[Tanarii]

I've only seen it used once to great effect. Too bad I didn't read it close enough and it was only used to great effect because everything was in total cover which I revealed and didn't know I ****ed up until now.

Oops.

Lol yeah it jumped out at me when I was reading the feature some time back, after I'd not paid particularly close attention to the wording. I mean, it hadn't been a game breaking thing before that, but there was definitely a few times when I first started that I let it work through cover.

Similarly, I've had a few snafus here and there with players using spells/features that require you to be able to see targets, when they totally couldn't, and me not having the details of the ability in question memorized. Now I ask the player to check their ability whenever there's total cover or concealment or blindness involved, unless we're both sure it's one that works.

[JackPhoenix]

Last session, one of the players was sorely disappointed when he found out that final version of Grave domain had Eyes of the Grave changed from 1-mile range, Primeval Awareness style to 60', no total cover Divine Sense style.

Too bad, given the horde of undead we were walking into.

[Unoriginal]

Can Divine Sense detect an enemy with Gloom Stalker powers? If yes, an encounter built around that count be awesome.

[Kintar]

The problem I have with it is when the dm’s treat the divine sense usage as a trigger for initiative. Nothing in the ability description says it’s a verbal component or some sort of visible soma tic measures, yet when my group has been amongst a group of strangers and I have indicated to the dm that I use divine sense, and then describe it as my char just silently takes a moment to center himself and sense the auras around him, the dm has either said “you detect nothing” or “and with that I need initiative from everyone as the (bad guy) reveals himself because you detected him”.

Now I’m robbed of any chance to have a rp discussion, or see what the ruse this NPC has is, or even set up a sneak attack.

[DarkKnightJin]

The problem I have with it is when the dm’s treat the divine sense usage as a trigger for initiative. Nothing in the ability description says it’s a verbal component or some sort of visible soma tic measures, yet when my group has been amongst a group of strangers and I have indicated to the dm that I use divine sense, and then describe it as my char just silently takes a moment to center himself and sense the auras around him, the dm has either said “you detect nothing” or “and with that I need initiative from everyone as the (bad guy) reveals himself because you detected him”.

Now I’m robbed of any chance to have a rp discussion, or see what the ruse this NPC has is, or even set up a sneak attack.

Because you detected him? How in the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would the BBEG know that you detected him, unless he's so Evil that you start to retch at his sheer presence?!
Besides, you'd learn there is A powerful Fiend, Undead or Celestial nearby. You don't know who or what exactly.

It's supposed to be an RP trigger, not combat.

[Blacky the Blackball]

My paladin has found it pretty damned (pun intended) useful in the Curse of Strahd. I won't give spoilers, but it's detected quite a few surprise instances of people not being quite so human as you'd expect.

To be honest, I think it's a lot more useful in a game with lots of NPC interactions than it is in a kick-in-the-door game.

[Gtdead]

I convinced my DM to let me use it as an "evil influence detector". He liked the idea.
I actually hate how limited it is. It's only good for finding the subjects in a gathering without making too much of a fuss. So let's say you play a gothic horror setting, and you want to kill the vampire socialite. You pop divine sense, get behind it, and smash his head with a smite.

Just don't smash it too hard, cause you will probably need to prove that he was a vampire to begin with.

The other outcome is that you notice that everyone is a vampire there, so you get to try and persuade everyone that you need a toilet break. Good luck with that.

[Tanarii]

, yet when my group has been amongst a group of strangers and I have indicated to the dm that I use divine sense, and then describe it as my char just silently takes a moment to center himself and sense the auras around him, the dm has either said “you detect nothing” or “and with that I need initiative from everyone as the (bad guy) reveals himself because you detected him”.

Thats when you say "it doesn't work that way." And if they go with it anyway and you care enough about it, you tell them you'd like to review the ruling with them after the game. And stick around for it.

Whenever a player actually requests to review a ruling after the game (instead of me saying it) and actually sticks around to do so, it's usually a solid sign that I probably screwed up. Unless it's just some optimizer cheese they're trying to use a combo to pull off.

My paladin has found it pretty damned (pun intended) useful in the Curse of Strahd. I won't give spoilers, but it's detected quite a few surprise instances of people not being quite so human as you'd expect.

To be honest, I think it's a lot more useful in a game with lots of NPC interactions than it is in a kick-in-the-door game.

not surprised on the CoS thing. And I agree on the latter.

Although it does have some utility in exploration and even combat, I think those are somewhat rare-ish circumstances. But if you're being followed by or trying to finish off an invisible Imp ...

I actually hate how limited it is. It's only good for finding the subjects in a gathering without making too much of a fuss.

Its got some other (limited) utility. It works through concealment just fine, and it pinpoints the creature(s), letting you attack them without guessing, which you can communicate to others.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I haven't seen a paladin yet that hasn't completely ruined an evil plot by discerning that the overly clingy maiden is actually a succubus, or the likable mayor they're talking to is a vampire. I've even had suspicious paladins figure out they were being tested by detecting disguised celestials asking for help.

It's not a combat ability, nor is it a radar. It's how you discover the plot two steps early.

[Puh Laden]

I am also a paladin in a CoS game and it has been a help not only for detecting things but also for ease of mind. I tend to be a paranoid player, so when a suspicious person doesn’t ping the radar, it means I know that the person is most likely human with human fears and desires. Of course, it helps that my DM agrees that there are no noticeable components or anything of the sort.