Is there any printed Spell Trigger item with charges perday?

[heavyfuel]

Asked this in the RAW thread but got no answer

Is there any printed Spell Trigger item with charges perday?

Since I think the answer is a big "No", let me ask a different question.



With the Custom Magic Items guidelines in mind, what would be the appropriate value for such an item?

If a command word item, which can be used by anyone, costs "Spell level*caster level*1,800 gp", how much should a spell trigger item, which requires you to have the spell on your list, cost?

I'm assuming less than a 30% reduction, as a 30% reduction is for a specific class, and different classes can have the same spell, so it's not as restrictive.

[Citadel97501]

Asked this in the RAW thread but got no answer

Is there any printed Spell Trigger item with charges perday?

Since I think the answer is a big "No", let me ask a different question.

I was just reading these and they are pretty easy to miss, 2 uses per day. Great with the an Artificer :)

Eternal Wands, 265 of the Eberron Campaign Setting.
Level 0 = 460 gp
Level 1 = 820
Level 2 = 4420
Level 3 = 10,900

[heavyfuel]

I'd thought of them, but Eternal Wands are not Spell Trigger items. Despite their names, they are this weirdly put Command Word items that have no apparent formula to them

[Zaq]

I thought minor schemas would count, but they're apparently spell completion rather than spell trigger.

To be honest, I always found the difference between spell completion and spell trigger to be arbitrary at best, and I've never really grokked why the game is better for drawing a distinction between them. I assume you have some kind of feat or class feature that triggers specifically off of using spell trigger items (but not any other type of item)?

[Ungoded]

I'd thought of them, but Eternal Wands are not Spell Trigger items. Despite their names, they are this weirdly put Command Word items that have no apparent formula to them

The formula for eternal wands seems to be: (Spell Level x Caster Level x 720)+100, assuming wizard/cleric/druid casting (Caster Level=(2*Spell Level)-1).

[heavyfuel]

I had never noticed this, but why are Spell Trigger items cheaper than Spell Completion ones? A lv 1 wand costs 15gp per charge, while a lv 1 scroll costs 25gp a pop. Scrolls are harder to use, so this makes zero sense

I thought minor schemas would count, but they're apparently spell completion rather than spell trigger.

They don't by my first definition, but they totally do for my purposes. Thanks!

The formula for eternal wands seems to be: (Spell Level x Caster Level x 720)+100, assuming wizard/cleric/druid casting (Caster Level=(2*Spell Level)-1).

Huh, would look at that? How the designers arrived at this formula is makes zero sense to me

[DEMON]

I had never noticed this, but why are Spell Trigger items cheaper than Spell Completion ones? A lv 1 wand costs 15gp per charge, while a lv 1 scroll costs 25gp a pop. Scrolls are harder to use, so this makes zero sense

Quantity discount.

[Zanos]

I had never noticed this, but why are Spell Trigger items cheaper than Spell Completion ones? A lv 1 wand costs 15gp per charge, while a lv 1 scroll costs 25gp a pop. Scrolls are harder to use, so this makes zero sense

Wands can't be scribed into books, but also the availability of partially charged wands is supposed to be limited, so you generally have to buy them in stacks of 50 uses.

[Rijan_Sai]

I thought minor schemas would count, but they're apparently spell completion rather than spell trigger.

To be honest, I always found the difference between spell completion and spell trigger to be arbitrary at best, and I've never really grokked why the game is better for drawing a distinction between them.

I would guess that it has to do with the way spell casting is described in the books (note: not sure if I'm remembering this as mechanical from PHB, or fluff from CM...)
Basically, (for Wizards, at least,) when they prepare their spells for the day, they are in fact casting ~95-99% of the spell. The "mechanical" part that we know from the books, (casting time, target, components, etc.) is the last 1-5%.

Spell completion items, then, would be "prepared" spells, with only the final bits left to "complete." Spell trigger item would be fully cast spells, contained as charges within the item.

At least that's how I would read it!

Wands can't be scribed into books, but also the availability of partially charged wands is supposed to be limited, so you generally have to buy them in stacks of 50 uses.

That would also explain this, why you can't transfer spells from wands into spellbooks. Scrolls hold the "potential energy" of the spell until the casting is complete to release it. Wands hold the "kinetic energy" of spells, and are basically just "point-and-shoot!"

[Crake]

Wands can't be scribed into books, but also the availability of partially charged wands is supposed to be limited, so you generally have to buy them in stacks of 50 uses.

Actually, it's far more likely that you'll find a wand that isn't at max charges, since the generation rules for wands put them at 1d20+30 charges, but of course, if you wanted say, exactly 5 charges, yeah, probably not gonna get what you want.

THAT said, what's really to stop a crafter from making a wand with only 5 charges instead of 50, reducing the crafting costs by 10. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to do honestly, the same way when you enchant ammunition, you can craft in less than sets of 50, it's just that the pricing is set for sets of 50.

[Zanos]

THAT said, what's really to stop a crafter from making a wand with only 5 charges instead of 50, reducing the crafting costs by 10. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to do honestly, the same way when you enchant ammunition, you can craft in less than sets of 50, it's just that the pricing is set for sets of 50.

That the rules say you can't, I guess. Economies of scale, or something. Newly crafted wands always have 50 charges.

[Jay R]

I had never noticed this, but why are Spell Trigger items cheaper than Spell Completion ones? A lv 1 wand costs 15gp per charge, while a lv 1 scroll costs 25gp a pop. Scrolls are harder to use, so this makes zero sense

The same reason 24 single colas usually cost less than a case of 24 of them.

The "per charge" cost isn't relevant unless you can buy them by the charge. Scrolls are harder to use, but you can buy a new one for 25gp. You need 750gp to buy the wand.

If you know you're going to use 50 of them, then yes, of course you should buy the wand. [Always buy healing by the wand.] But if you have 25 or 50 gp, you can buy a scroll or two, but can't buy a wand.

[Crake]

That the rules say you can't, I guess. Economies of scale, or something. Newly crafted wands always have 50 charges.

Well, you can call it a "custom" item that's functionally exactly the same as a wand but only has X charges. It'd be up to the DM's purview, but I honestly don't see why you wouldn't allow it.

[Zanos]

Well, you can call it a "custom" item that's functionally exactly the same as a wand but only has X charges. It'd be up to the DM's purview, but I honestly don't see why you wouldn't allow it.

Specifically creating something that removes the primary tradeoff of buying a wand over a scroll seems like a pretty good reason.

[death390]

i mean its definitely a big no, however working backwards this is what i come across.

50 charge spell trigger item = spell lvl * caster lvl * 750;
in special section (designated for wonderous items) a 50 charge item is 1/2 cost of an unlimited item.
so a unlimited spell trigger item would technically be equal to Spell level * caster Lvl * 1500.
to make a charges per day item divide this number by 5 and multiply by the number of charges you want. (5/5 would just be better made unlimited)

so a 2/day spell trigger item would technically cost Spell level * caster lvl * 600g.

this is in comparison to a standard eternal wand at cost of 820g for 2/day. for a lvl 1 spell at CL1.

note that this is actually a pretty major difference. a eternal wand is usable by ANY arcane spellcaster without UMD, whereas the charge/day wand still has the drawbacks of a spell trigger item (can use freely if on list, UMD if not) (note that 100g of that is actually rod cost)

[heavyfuel]

to make a charges per day item divide this number by 5 and multiply by the number of charges you want. (5/5 would just be better made unlimited)

If it has charges per day, you treat the price as if it had 50 charges. So you can divide the total cost by half

[death390]

If it has charges per day, you treat the price as if it had 50 charges. So you can divide the total cost by half

Spell has material component cost Add directly into price of item per charge6
Spell has XP cost Add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge6

6. If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.

is this the part you are talking about? if you notice that is for component cost not overall.

[heavyfuel]

is this the part you are talking about? if you notice that is for component cost not overall.

Ah, indeed. My mistake

[Bohandas]

Well, you can call it a "custom" item that's functionally exactly the same as a wand but only has X charges.

And it has the advantage of using craft wondrous item instead of requiring an additional feat

[death390]

im not sure about that. by RAW you can only make wands with the specific formulae they have. which is why eternal wands are setup as a wondrous item. as a DM i would say go for it. since it if following the spirit but RAW would probably require craft wondrous item and no craft wand. it wouldn't even be considered a wand just a spell trigger wondrous item.