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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Why is DC sucking so much?

    As we all know Justice League opened with a disappointing box office, lower than any DCEU movie. This reception is likely because of the reviews, which despite not being released on Rotten Tomatoes until the day before was enough to make an impact as well as fans being disappointed in Batman V Superman which this film directly followed. Warner Bros. is clueless about what to do. They plan on making stand-alone films which I think is the right direction, but the bad taste of the DCEU films will still be connected to them. If they reboot (even using time travel like Star Trek or DOFP) again they'll have to get it perfect otherwise fans won't trust them anymore. They already destroyed Luthor and Joker, their two best villains in one year. Even if you like these versions of the characters, the fact that Warner Bros. decided to controversial change their most iconic villains would inevitably divide the fanbase.

    It's not just the films. Their animated movies have been declining in quality every since they decided to make a film series based off the new 52, with characters behaving like complete jerks or morons, yet they still continue to make these films. Their adaptation of the Killing Joke was an insult and bastardized the character of Batgirl. Batman & Harley Quinn was an embarrassment. They made a new Justice League show which follows a 11-minute format, and let's not get started on Teen Titans Go!.

    On live action TV, I hear a lot of complaints about the shows getting bogged down by pointless romances and characters acting like complete morons. Flash had a solid first season, but quickly dropped the ball and they decided to retcon everything so it feels like watching it is pointless. Supergirl's second season was a mess and paired her up with some rando with no chemistry with her. And these shows are interconnected so much that not watching the other, all crappy episodes included will make you have difficult understanding the whole thing.

    I'm not sure what's wrong with DC and Warner Bros. They seem to lack any confident in their works and feel like they need to shove a dozen or so plots and reboot when fans complain. And after hearing complaints they either double down on it or they do a complete 180 and suck in an opposite direction. I really want to put out quality entertainment again like Justice League Unlimited and Dark Knight Doulogy (yeah... Rises didn't do it for me either). Everything they're putting out now is just passably decent at best and excruciating garbage at worst.
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    I enjoy their stuff anyways, but I think it's because they're not taking their time to build up the story with their movies. They're just rushing through it.

    My sadness with them comes in the loss of the Justice League and Justice League Unlimited cartoons. That was unfortunate.
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Its because DC is trying to do in a few years what took Marvel a helluva long time to do, build a Cinematic Universe that people will go see movies from just because its set in that Cinematic universe.

    Why? Cause that probably makes Marvel a ton of money.

    So DC is trying to play catch-up without trying to make good movies as a solid foundation. Not that I haven't enjoyed the DC films I have seen, because I have, but they're pretty divisive on with movie-goers at best and that's not the best sign.
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    A few things:

    1. DC has suffered from "Batman Disease" ever since th last trilogy. Everything should be Batman. Superman? Makes it dark and Batman. Etc.
    2. DC has a huge problem with "Avengers Envy". Despite, unlike Marvel, they had not sold out a number of their properties (Spider Man, X-Men, FF) they never had a plan. When they realized what Marvel was doing they just... Skipped ahead to an ensamble movie without trying to tie together the characters first.
    3. It's noticable that the one movie that broke against most of their problem issues (WW) was much more successful than DC thought. Several sources confirms that DC / WB just weren't expecting it to do better than "Meh".
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    I think it's important not to conflate too many things together and create trends where they may or may not exist.

    For instance, the DC Universe Animated Movies seem to be doing fine. Yes Killing Joke was, by all accounts, awful, but Justice League Dark and Teen Titans: Judas Contract worked fine, so animated damage at the moment seems to be limited to Batman. The live action series may not be especially high quality, but they keep renewing and in fact making more of them, so they are at least commercial successes. There have obviously been problems with the ensemble films in terms of both critical reception, and now in the case of Justice League commercial success (the early numbers indicate that a good run from here on out will still amount to roughly break even), but Wonder Woman was well-regarded and a smash hit, so it's clearly not impossible to make a good DC movie.

    There are several stand-alone films scheduled between now and a hypothetical Justice League part 2, with Aquaman apparently first up late next year and already in post-production. If Aquaman is a good movie and makes a bunch of money, then we can look at a consensus that says: dump Zack Snyder, focus on one character at a time and everyone can calm down. If Aquaman doesn't work, then it's time to panic really bad. If I were in charge of WB's DC studio at the moment, my move would be to push ahead with Wonder Woman 2, The Batman, and Shazam! (the latter two are apparently in pre-production already) and delay Suicide Squad 2 and Justice League 2 and any other team-up movies (Green Lantern Corps, etc.) until you know whether pressing the reboot button is necessary.

    Also dump Zack Snyder - you're never going to have a better sacrifice to throw to the raving mobs than this.
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    If Aquaman is a good movie and makes a bunch of money, then we can look at a consensus that says: dump Zack Snyder, focus on one character at a time and everyone can calm down.
    That would do it for me, as someone who had no interest in DC movies since Man of Steel and how that movie stuck with me in a very toxic sense. Snyder's too much of an all-consuming force, with way too little understanding of these creatures we call humans on display and far too much punching you in the face with his auteur direction that it's frankly obnoxious.

    While I honestly wasn't too enamored with Wonder Woman - it had a few stand-out moments but a lot of drag and things I didn't think worked as a whole - I would still love to see more projects like that. Ones that embrace their character and try and make the audience understand why people paid to read their comics for decades. Preferably ones with more diverse direction and aesthetics.

    Basically, while Wonder Woman didn't create any interest in the DCEU as a meta-franchise (I felt some its success can be credited to its lack of obstruction) and I don't really feel the pressing need to see it ever again, it did renew my hope that WB/DC can do movies which aren't depressing sloughs that waste hours of my life. More creativity in this space and I could appreciate DC's contributions.

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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    The odd thing about Justice League is, if you look at Rotten Tomatoes, the critic score is way lower than the audience score--so it seems the few people who actually went to see it enjoyed it far more than the critics did? One wonders if word of mouth will improve its fortunes over time.

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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Well, it is not just DC, of course, but all most all of Hollywood.

    First off the DC TV shows are perfect for what they are made for: Young 20 something super dramas....with superheros mixed in a bit. There target audience is your typical, mostly female, young person who just loves young drama And the very casual comic reader, mostly male, who read some comics in the past. So the basic idea is a couple can watch it together as the perfect show: ''she'' loves all the young drama and ''he'' loves the superhero tights and action. (Though you can switch around the he and she too). The shows are made for the person who has no idea what a comic is, and the casual reader from long ago.

    I never read too much of DC comics, I was more of a Marvel fan. So I have a couple Flash Trade Paperbacks that have Captin' Cold and he is just a guy in a coat with a freeze gun that goes peww peww. So when I watch Flash, with Wentworth Miller one of my favorite actors, I think the Cold character is awesome(and seriously they got Dominic P to be Fire....I watched them break out of prison for YEARS). Of course your typical real die hard fan does not like the ''TV version'' as it does not fit the comic character. And as a Marvel fan I know what they are talking about when they randomly toss some stupid stuff on Agents of SHEILD and I'm all like...um, no.

    But the TV shows, and the Movies share the next BIG problem: They MUST be both Politically Correct AND Made for Kidz.

    The Politically Correct forces the DC to make everything One Way. They HAVE to do X, in a small (mostly in vane) attempt to keep everyone happy....but mostly the politically active screamers.

    The next one is even worse: It must be made for Kidz. This has all ways been a big super hero problem. By default, a huge part of the fan base is Kidz: age 2-18(and them innocent 20 something too). So this puts a HUGE limit on things they can do, stories, plots and everything else. They HAVE to make sure that everything is ''just right'' for the kidz...and their parents.

    Though, of course this is a huge mine field...and you can never be too sure what will be ''wrong'' or ''offend''. So there is really only one thing to do: play it safe and make sure nothing ''stands out''. Unfortunately...the ''stands out'' part, is the critical part as that is the stuff that makes movies good and great.

    Marvel, you would note, pushes right up at the ''pg-13'' level...so technically you should not let young kidz watch their stuff. DC does not even come close most of the time.

    So with Marvel you get Loki, who kills like 100 people right at the start of the Avengers, and then rolls on being evil and then kills Phil Colson...a well enough known and likeable character. This makes all the heroes, plus all the viewers hate Loki even more...and gives them a reason to act...literally, this is the plot of the movie(admittedly with a bit of evil deception by Fury). This makes the big CGI spam battle mean something at the end.

    Justice League just has ''um alien demons?" that want to destroy the world? So you get CGI spam...they talk...cgi spam..get together..and CGI spam big battle to finish. No really meat or emotions...just a couple of CGI spams linked together. This is made for kidz: they can watch the movie, put on their super hero costume and 'pew pew' around the house.

    And BOTH of the above only get way, way, way, way worse with bad writing and scripts, and action and acting and everything else.

    Like for example, whatever genius though that ''hey lets copy Marvels Avengers movie, but with our cool Dc heroes" should get the boot. It is a terrible idea. The Avengers/justice league are all ready way to similar....no need to high light it and point it out. Really, any plot would have been better.

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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Marvel Phase 1;
    (2008) Iron Man
    (2008) The Incredible Hulk - yes, it counts.
    (2010) Iron Man 2 - includes Black Widow.
    (2011) Thor - includes Hawkeye (barely).
    (2011) Captain America
    (2012) The Avengers

    It took five movies (and 4-5 years) to get to The Avengers. The villain for Avengers was set up in Thor, two movies prior. We knew who all the characters were, before The Avengers even had opening credits. All of the movies included Nick Fury as a throughline, promising something big, down the road. Above all, Marvel was planning from the start. Kevin Feige knew what he wanted to do, how to do it, and despite individual Directors complaining about Marvel/Disney execs breathing down their throat (none of which matters to us, the audience who only get to see the final product), fact is, the results of red tape and heavy bureaucracy speaks for itself... Have a clear vision. Stick to the vision. Don't deviate. Even casting Paul Bettany as JARVIS feels like a calculated move from the start.

    DC notices that The Avengers knocks it out of the park, and immediately tries to copy. Except you can't copy Marvel, because then you'd be copying Marvel, and people would see right through that. So, while Marvel is fun, DC tries to go dark and gritty. Except that Dark and Gritty only works with Batman, because of Batman's origin. The rest of the JLA don't really have awful backstories. Superman's home planet exploding and his parents sending away their only son, doesn't get found out by Clark, until he's into his 30s, by which point he's been raised in Kansas by a (presumably) Catholic couple. His parents are also very clear that Clark isn't their real son from the start. His parents found him, and they wanted him, and they protected him. Superman's origin sounds dark, but he was a baby when it actually happened, and well into adulthood when he found out. He ain't no Superboy-Prime.

    (2013) Man of Steel - Please don't do that again, we don't like that version of Superman. Superman's 'super-power' is having parents who love him and who taught him right from wrong. Wait, did Clark's Dad just tell him not to save people if he didn't want to? WHAT!?
    (2016) Suicide Squad - Batman was cool?
    (2016) Batman v Superman - Batman was cool. We get it. But we said don't do that with Superman. Are you even listening?
    (2017) Wonder Woman - You did it. It wasn't great. But it was well done. Polish this up when it comes to bringing back Superman, and you've nailed it.
    (2017) Justice League - Yeah, we get it. You're not interested in listening to us. Do what you want, and we don't care anymore.

    The key factor to DC's movies, simply seems to be lack of vision. DC gave us 3 movies within the same 12 months. There's no way that they had enough time to properly plan out scripts and continuity between movies... And then within another 3 months, they put Justice League on the table. Zack Snyder had to drop out for...A pretty real reason. But then just bring in a new director, and do a bunch of reshoots. Don't delay the movie. That's ridiculous. If you delay the movie, it wont be out for Christmas, and we can't have that. Money.

    On TV?
    ...It just seems like the Superhero Genre bubble burst within four years (Marvel's ratings are also dropping, and Inhumans was a disaster). A big part of that, has to do with the fact that DC can't pick a tone. Arrow is the serious one. The Flash is the goofy ridiculous one, and Supergirl is...The one in the middle? Except Flash and Supergirl had higher ratings whilst Arrow's dipped. Must've been because of that 'fun' thing that people keep going on about over at Marvel. So...Make Arrow a bit goofy too. That wont ruin anything at all. Maybe throw in more serious stuff into The Flash, that's what people want. Leave Supergirl alone. We don't know what we're doing. But people like it anyway. So, just hold the wheel.
    ...Except then you have the big crossover episodes/arcs, where people start noticing the difference between tones, and, more than once I have to second-guess if Stephen Amell is even acting when Ollie says he hates the 'world-crossover' stuff. That's not what made Arrow's first season successful, and is pretty much directly the reason for why it is now failing. But no, keep doing focus episodes on 'Felicity & Friends', and maybe don't even have Oliver Queen altogether? ...Nailing it.

    On Netflix, where there's no ads and no corporate kowtowing...Marvel is doing the serious stuff, and basically nailing it. You don't need to be 'family friendly' when there's no ads. *thumbs up*

    Gotham is doing alright on real TV. But, I'm pretty sure that's because 'dumb comic stuff' hasn't really been integrated into the show.

    I like the animated movies. I mean, Killing Joke sucked. But, everything else has been good? No?
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The odd thing about Justice League is, if you look at Rotten Tomatoes, the critic score is way lower than the audience score--so it seems the few people who actually went to see it enjoyed it far more than the critics did? One wonders if word of mouth will improve its fortunes over time.
    I think it's more likely that it's just the only people that are both willing to go see it AND spend their time writing a review about it are hardcore fans that weren't turned off by three terrible movies in a row (four if you count Dark Knight Rises) followed by a passably mediocre one (seriously, Wonder Woman only seems good by comparison to the rest) beforehand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I like the animated movies. I mean, Killing Joke sucked. But, everything else has been good? No?
    People rag on Killing Joke but I thought it was fine.

    It's *shudders* Son of Batman that deserves all the ire people give to that movie. I think the only reason it doesn't is because people blocked it out of their memories or something.

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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    The foundations are rotten.

    The foundations of the DCEU are in Man of Steel, and Man of Steel is bad at being a movie.

    It fails to dramatically present characters, there's a disconnect between what characters say and what they do. Clark says he is conflicted about using his powers to save people based on what Cranky Old Man Kent said, but at no point does he ever not use his powers. He doesn't show the conflict through actions, and that means as far as the film is concerned it isn't real.

    Clark doesn't change across the course of the film, because his alleged internal conflict never existed.

    Zod is a shouty man who doesn't have apparent motives for what he's doing (and what he's doing is stupid, terraforming earth to be less awesome for Kryptonians) until he drops a clanger of a line about genetic predisposition which is completely unexplored as a motivation and never contrasted with Clark (because his motivations are also unexplored, there's no reason in the film for him to choose to be Superman, and that's because that conflict from before didn't exist).

    Then in BvS we're shown a Batman who is, like, at least 75% of the way to Crazy Steve but he starts there and there's nothing in the film which shows dramatically how he got there, who he was before, or shows him learning anything that might change him. (No, a chopped up Robin costume does not count, it's a background detail not a dramatic presentation, for all we know Crazy Steve did that himself)

    We're also shown a world which is, despite Superman's best efforts, mostly a sack of **** for all involved. Which means that when JL tries to convince us that the world is going to hell without him we don't care, because it was already a hellhole fit for Crazy Steve.

    JL then tries to convince us that they need Superman to come back to lead the team, but at no point does his "leadership" amount to more than "the bigliest puncher".


    It's consistent across all the movies, (including Suicide Squad) that the dramatic presentation of characters is at odds with what the characters say. Actions do not line up with words, and the discrepancy is not examined which implies that the movie does not think there is one.

    Underlying all the tonal problems, the movies are just not good at being movies. They are badly constructed and engineered movies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Clark says he is conflicted about using his powers to save people based on what Cranky Old Man Kent said, but at no point does he ever not use his powers. He doesn't show the conflict through actions, and that means as far as the film is concerned it isn't real.
    He doesn't use his powers for like, 15 years. The problem is that we don't see that. All of the conflict happened off-screen. By the time he 'comes out of retirement' at the ripe old age of...30...Supes has got his groove back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    He doesn't use his powers for like, 15 years. The problem is that we don't see that. All of the conflict happened off-screen. By the time he 'comes out of retirement' at the ripe old age of...30...Supes has got his groove back.
    Yeah, but without the film showing it and showing some personal effect of that decision to not use his powers on Clark, it didn't happen.

    It's almost like "show don't tell" is one of the fundamental rules of dramatic narrative or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Yeah, but without the film showing it and showing some personal effect of that decision to not use his powers on Clark, it didn't happen.

    It's almost like "show don't tell" is one of the fundamental rules of dramatic narrative or something.
    That's really not it. There is a montage in Man of Steel that is suggestive of superman exercising considerable restraint and avoiding the spotlight. There's plenty of justification for Clark choosing not to use his powers. The problem is the justification is garbage. Clark's refusal in Man of Steel to act like a hero is based on a ridiculous and largely nonsensical setup presented by Zack Snyder speaking as Pa Kent that makes no sense on the face of it. The idea that a teenage Clark lets his father die to conceal his powers is one of the most absolute BS moments in superhero film-making ever recorded.

    If Man of Steel had offered a situation wherein Clark had used his powers and as a consequence Pa Kent had died - for example if he'd done something frivolous Spiderman style or something careless like cause massive collateral damage in a fight in Smallville - then a retreat from the world and concealment of his abilities would have made sense and coming out of hiding to save humanity from Zod would have represented real conflict.

    This is the same problem as Zod terraforming Earth at the end of the film: why would you do that man? You and your followers are literal gods so long as you stay on this planet. And if you need a red sun situation to raise babies or something because biology reasons, you can terraform Mars and rule both worlds.

    It's consistent across all the movies, (including Suicide Squad) that the dramatic presentation of characters is at odds with what the characters say. Actions do not line up with words, and the discrepancy is not examined which implies that the movie does not think there is one.
    The exception, of course is Wonder Woman, in which characters pretty much do exactly what they say they're going to do - on several occasions quite literally. Suicide Squad is such an impossible mess that it doesn't really even have any sort of presentation for half the characters or more - the one character who does have something resembling a coherent motive is Will Smith's Deadshot and that character is more or less consistent throughout the film.

    If you remove the 3 Zack Snyder films from the list you're left with Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad. That's one smashing success and one incoherent disaster. Fifty-fifty isn't bad, really. It's not reasonable to expect anyone to emulate Marvel's success. You can absolutely build a successful business franchise off a few good films holding up a bunch of mediocre and crappy ones so long as you have things that go boom - they made a 5th Pirates movie this year, it made 800 billion dollars globally, this is the world now.

    There are good things to take from JL: the actors they've cast seem fine. None of the complaints focus on Fisher, Miller, or Momoa. Gal Gadot remains Wonder Woman. Cavill is a bland Superman, but Superman is a bland character. People have mixed feelings about Affleck as Batman but he's on his way out anyway.

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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Well. I saw Justice League yesterday and liked it.
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    Their problem is Edge. Everything needs to be grim and gritty. Fans say Man Of Steel too depressing? DOUBLE DOWN ON THAT ****!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmeoaice View Post
    On live action TV, I hear a lot of complaints about the shows getting bogged down by pointless romances and characters acting like complete morons. Flash had a solid first season, but quickly dropped the ball and they decided to retcon everything so it feels like watching it is pointless. Supergirl's second season was a mess and paired her up with some rando with no chemistry with her. And these shows are interconnected so much that not watching the other, all crappy episodes included will make you have difficult understanding the whole thing.
    The worst thing is that they had an awesome show with my favourite comics character (although they mispronounced his name), and it was the one that ended before it finished it's first series. Sure it toned down the character's jerkishness, but it ends off feeling like he's moving towards the character I know and a lot of the character traits I was afraid they'd remove had been kept or even toned up from some of the original comics. But it also wasn't a superhero teen drama, but more an urban fantasy series with a master petty dabbler of the dark arts as a main character. I hadn't seen an Urban Fantasy series in ages, and it ended up just gone.
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Treatment: Purge Zack Snyder and see if conditions improve.
    Snyder has removed himself for a very good reason. Joss Whedon had to reshoot parts of the movie - and Henry Cavill refused to shave.
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    "Suck" compared to what?

    The Avengers?

    Are you kidding?

    The Avengers was one of the dullest movies that I've seen this decade (on par with the boredom inducing post Casino Royale Bond movies).

    Actually come to think of it X-Men: First Class was the only big budget film that I've seen this decade that seemed to have any spark to it, but The Avengers really was just so mind-numbingly dull it stands apart in an ignoble crew.

    The DC films must be truly godawful if they can't be better than the putrid piece of tedium that was The Avengers (at least it had the "puny god" line otherwise I'd put it even below Quantum of Solace .as the biggest waste of cash Hollywood's made this decade).
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zmeoaice View Post
    As we all know Justice League opened with a disappointing box office, lower than any DCEU movie. This reception is likely because of the reviews, which despite not being released on Rotten Tomatoes until the day before was enough to make an impact as well as fans being disappointed in Batman V Superman which this film directly followed.
    While I don't disagree with you that DC has a problem here and seems clueless on what to do about it, I do disagree that the reason JL is failing is (in large part) because of the reviews. I don't think people were hyped for this movie. I know I wasn't. When we got first looks at it, it didn't look like it was going to be good. My friend (we see all superhero movies together) texted me last weekend and said "should we spend money on JL?" There just wasn't an interest. The setup to this movie was bad, and nothing in the years going into it made you think this was going to be a stark difference to what we've already gotten. Sure, the reviews obviously don't help. But I think even going into this the interest that many would-be viewers had was tepid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear
    DC notices that The Avengers knocks it out of the park, and immediately tries to copy. Except you can't copy Marvel, because then you'd be copying Marvel, and people would see right through that.
    I honestly don't think this would have been a problem. Sure, it would have been a common talking point, but one that would inspire little more than a "yep" response. The solo movies building up to a team movie make narrative sense, and financial sense. You can build up a lot more momentum and interest doing it that way instead of just plopping down a JL movie.

    Marvel did it with their secondary characters. DC has the Trinity. People would have gone to see what DC was doing. But the movies have to be good and have to be structured. The Marvel movies all have a common thread through them and are building towards the Avengers. MoS and BvS, on the other hand, simply do not set up the premise in JL (that Superman's death has cast the planet into a state of despair and he needs to return). The movie itself doesn't even adhere to its own premise as Superman's return in the movie doesn't actually seem necessary in the end.

    DC's movies have to be consistent and structured and connected. MoS was only retroactively connected to BvS, and BvS shoe-horned in the rest of the League. Then we got... Suicide Squad, for some reason...

    They need to figure out what they're doing because this is not entertaining. Like... Superheroes fighting aliens and monsters and villains is entertaining. But not when you're constantly questioning everything about it. Civil War did it well because the heroes were actually arguing and bringing up points and counter-points. I wasn't crazy about Civil War (though repeat viewings are much better) but they presented the idea well. MoS and BvS gives us mopey pained-face Superman and crazy Batman.
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    DC could easily coast on the names of Superman et al. if they had a real director making even mediocre movies.

    Zack Snyder is a good visual director. He is not a good director. Those two are different jobs. It's like giving a butcher his own meat restaurant. The jobs might seem linked, but they need different skill sets.

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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The odd thing about Justice League is, if you look at Rotten Tomatoes, the critic score is way lower than the audience score--so it seems the few people who actually went to see it enjoyed it far more than the critics did? One wonders if word of mouth will improve its fortunes over time.
    Doubtful. As it stands, the "audience" score is a very self-selected group. First, at this point, it's mostly the dedicated fans who liked BvS that went to see JL. Of those, those that loved the movie (or are emotionally invested in its success) bothered to give a score in RT. Yes, reviewers are as a group biased towards what one might call "artsy" and "oscar-baity" films, but that bias is practically nothing compared to the bias of "people who watched the film, and are still engaged enough to give it a score in RT".

    This weekend it will be competing with a pixar film (during the American family festivity week, to boot - families that go to the movies are NOT going to go to JL when they can go to a family friendly show). Soon enough, Star Wars is opening. Against such competition, JL is going to fizzle faster, not slower, than you'd expect even if it had been successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    "Suck" compared to what?

    The Avengers?

    Are you kidding?
    2D8HP, your opinion, valid as it is, clearly does not reflect the opinion of the masses in this topic. You cannot extrapolate your lack of engagement with the Avengers to that of the total population movie-goers. By and large, audiences loved it, and they did not love BvS nor JL.



    As to the topic at hand, MovieBob has been doing a good job of showcasing that on paper BvS and JL and JL2 (now cancelled) should have worked.

    MoS: Superman is a beacon of goodness, but when confronting a person of equal power but no Kansas morals, the world might as well be made of cardboard.

    BvS: After the destruction of Metropolis, Batman goes into a tailspin of self-recrimination ("I couldn't save my parents from a thug. Now there is this even worse thug who can destroy the whole world") and his "saving people thing" drives him to trying to control everything and therefore decide that Superman needs to be killed. He eventually succeeds

    JL: Oh ****, without Superman, now every evil guy with a reason to invade Earth can now do it. ****. ****, ****, ****. OK, who's left? Lets band together and hold the fort. This ain't working, we need Superman back.

    JL2: Now with Superman.

    The problem was not with the outline. It was with the execution. They never showed Superman to be a beacon of goodness and Kansas morality. He was dark and gritty and, therefore, not actually Superman. Then BvS was a bloody mess. And now JL has no foundations on which to build - I understand that it is actually pretending the previous two films didn't actually happen as shown, and that in fact the story as outlined is the one they've been selling all along (i.e. that Superman is the one from the comics, instead of the ubermench Ayn Rand/Nietzsche "you don't owe lesser mortals anything" version).

    Also, I wonder how much of the problems of BvS can be laid on not wanting to make Batman the bad guy. So much cruft is due to trying to insert Luthor into a story that really didn't need him. Batman was ready to go after Superman before Luthor was involved: they should not have had him at all. Which is weird, because you'd think the whole point of "dark and gritty" would be that Batman could easily fit into the villain mold.

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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    The foundations are rotten.

    The foundations of the DCEU are in Man of Steel, and Man of Steel is bad at being a movie.

    It fails to dramatically present characters, there's a disconnect between what characters say and what they do. Clark says he is conflicted about using his powers to save people based on what Cranky Old Man Kent said, but at no point does he ever not use his powers. He doesn't show the conflict through actions, and that means as far as the film is concerned it isn't real.

    Clark doesn't change across the course of the film, because his alleged internal conflict never existed.
    I think you can do an alienated-and-conflicted Superman movie, Tim Burton might have pulled it off. Man of Steel is not that movie.

    Superman, in the comics, is good because heís raised that way. In MoS, heís simply seems to be inherently some sort of saint. The movie makes him a martyr. Nothing and nobody tells him to start saving people, and doing so isnít rewarding like in earlier movies. He just carries on and continues to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Then in BvS we're shown a Batman who is, like, at least 75% of the way to Crazy Steve but he starts there and there's nothing in the film which shows dramatically how he got there, who he was before, or shows him learning anything that might change him. (No, a chopped up Robin costume does not count, it's a background detail not a dramatic presentation, for all we know Crazy Steve did that himself)
    DC seemed not to trust their project enough to give it multiple movies. In particular, we didnít get a solo Batman movie that would have established the motivations for this older, uglier, less moral Batman.

    Perhaps they also could have done it if we got less Superman and perhaps actually got the scenes of the Joker killing Robin and told the story from Batmanís perspective. Instead, we the movie emphasized what a saint Superman is and how the world (including Batman) canít seem to appreciate that without worshipping him as the next coming of Hitler.



    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    It's consistent across all the movies, (including Suicide Squad) that the dramatic presentation of characters is at odds with what the characters say. Actions do not line up with words, and the discrepancy is not examined which implies that the movie does not think there is one.

    Underlying all the tonal problems, the movies are just not good at being movies. They are badly constructed and engineered movies.
    These discrepancies are all there, and I think itís part because DC was to go all in on the Zack Snyderverse, who doesnít favor internal coherency, but part because they didnít believe in that tone enough to give us the space to meet and like the new characters, other than Superman, who we no longer like.

    DC struggled with Green Lantern and Superman Returns. Those movies had a more DC tone but were still bad nevertheless.

    Perhaps itís possible DC just doesnít know how to make really good movies.
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Civil War did it well because the heroes were actually arguing and bringing up points and counter-points. I wasn't crazy about Civil War (though repeat viewings are much better) but they presented the idea well. MoS and BvS gives us mopey pained-face Superman and crazy Batman.
    My problems with Civil War are primarily that it seemed to exist mainly to set up conflict for the next film, and that it was less of a Captain America film and more of an Avengers film. I might have preferred it if Age of Ultron had been a single-hero film (because Ultron was a fun villain who could conceivably return later) and Civil War was the Avengers title. Plus I just couldn't see Captain America's point, even though the movie does try to imply he's right at the end.

    Honestly? I don't really think hero teamups work in movies. If I was doing the Justice League in a cinematic universe I'd make it a setting element, it's the justification for another hero occasionally turning up or how characters get information, but there's no massive team up fight in any of the films.
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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    I just couldn't see Captain America's point,
    His point was "I'd rather trust in the moral choices of individuals over the policy choices of a bureaucracy" (because in the past, I have been right more often than they have been)

    Compare that to Iron Man's "I'd rather that moral choices of individuals get supervised by others" (because I know I cannot be trusted to make the right moral choices 100% of the time).

    I agree with Iron Man more than with Captain America on this - such major moral choices really should be double checked.

    (I am purposely leaving aside the actual implementation of the idea in the Sokovia Accords because we really don't know how well it was implemented. We've been down the rabbit hole of "if the Sokovia Accords say X, X would be bad/good/OK". You can make a case any which way)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    even though the movie does try to imply he's right at the end.
    I wouldn't say the film implies anything of the sort. Civil Wars don't decide who is right, only who is left. The film quite clearly ends with moral failings across the board, and everyone is worse off than they started with. An excellent end-of-second-act situation, really. Now they have a hole they need to claw their way out of.

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    Default Re: Why is DC sucking so much?

    If they are going to do a team up, do Blue and Gold (Booster Gold and Blue Beetle).
    It would have the wit and humor we need, while still able to handle grit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    His point was "I'd rather trust in the moral choices of individuals over the policy choices of a bureaucracy" (because in the past, I have been right more often than they have been)
    Also like six weeks ago for him everyone who might have been involved in that oversight was actually Hydra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Also like six weeks ago for him everyone who might have been involved in that oversight was actually Hydra.
    While for Tony, N weeks ago he created a murderous AI. As I said, both of their positions make good sense from their personal perspectives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    DC notices that The Avengers knocks it out of the park, and immediately tries to copy. Except you can't copy Marvel, because then you'd be copying Marvel, and people would see right through that.
    Except DC did copy Marvel. Justice League is a bad copy of the Avengers. Evil army invades world..heroes ban together..make some jokes...and save the day. It even had Cubes of Evil, sigh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    So, while Marvel is fun, DC tries to go dark and gritty. Except that Dark and Gritty only works with Batman, because of Batman's origin. The rest of the JLA don't really have awful backstories.
    Batman has never fit in with the Justice League...and it there mostly for DC to make money as ''Batman is in the book/movie''. The rest of the JL is very good and noble and should not be so nitty gritty.

    Superman is roughly equal to Captain America in that for both their REAL super power is that they are the goodest of good guys. In The First Avenger about half the movie really, really makes the point that Steve is a super good hero guy..even without super powers. And this is again high lighted in the Avengers and even more so in The Winter Soldier(really Steve's The Price of Freedom speech is a gem).

    But at the same time...Captain America is right at the line of PG-13 ''dark'' and ''gritty'', as Cap is a Killer. Throughout the movies he kills lots of people, not with a huge Focus on buckets of blood or anything, but they are there.

    And this is the spot where Superman....and a lot of the others in DC should be at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    On Netflix, where there's no ads and no corporate kowtowing...Marvel is doing the serious stuff, and basically nailing it. You don't need to be 'family friendly' when there's no ads. *thumbs up*
    Netflix, and the other such services, are a real good thing for entertainment. They can do things on such shows that can never be done on TV, other then Pay Cable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    His point was "I'd rather trust in the moral choices of individuals over the policy choices of a bureaucracy" (because in the past, I have been right more often than they have been)

    Compare that to Iron Man's "I'd rather that moral choices of individuals get supervised by others" (because I know I cannot be trusted to make the right moral choices 100% of the time).

    I agree with Iron Man more than with Captain America on this - such major moral choices really should be double checked.

    (I am purposely leaving aside the actual implementation of the idea in the Sokovia Accords because we really don't know how well it was implemented. We've been down the rabbit hole of "if the Sokovia Accords say X, X would be bad/good/OK". You can make a case any which way)


    I wouldn't say the film implies anything of the sort. Civil Wars don't decide who is right, only who is left. The film quite clearly ends with moral failings across the board, and everyone is worse off than they started with. An excellent end-of-second-act situation, really. Now they have a hole they need to claw their way out of.

    GW
    You're meant to side with Cap.. but only because the Civil War in the comics had Cap be right quite blatantly(and derailed Tony Stark's character to have him be on the other side.)

    If the implementation in the movies was anything like the implementation in the comics, it would basically be forcing all Superhumans to be subservient to the Government, (one character took sadistic glee in trying to force Captain American to agree to hunt down his friends if they refused to register. This conversation happened before the registration act went through,) which considering how the Government had treated Superhumans in the past in the Marvel Universe, wouldn't have been good.

    (The only good thing about the Civil War in the comics was Captain America giving the Punisher a well-deserved ass-kicking.)

    I haven't seen Ca: CW, so I don't know if the Movie was any better than the comicbook storyline it was adapted from.
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