Why is DC sucking so much?

[Cikomyr]

That's not what that word actually means

Yes. It does.

Claiming as a hypothetical that during Doomsday Armaggedon scenario, Ukraine/Russia/China would insist on refusing Avenger help because they.. dont want to, and thus let themselves dies?

Thats stupid and strawmanish.

[lord_khaine]

Yes. It does.

Claiming as a hypothetical that during Doomsday Armaggedon scenario, Ukraine/Russia/China would insist on refusing Avenger help because they.. dont want to, and thus let themselves dies?

Thats stupid and strawmanish.

Hm.. yeah, i do agree with that, i do also think its a bad argument for letting the Avengers cross borders as they please with no oversight.

Actually. It does not even make sense.
With Accords. USA or some simular militaristic state can refuse help and let millions die to fx hulk rampaging.
Without Accords. USA can still deny entry for a heroic team of Chinise super heroes, because they are a soverign state thats legally allowed to defend their borders as they please.

[Cikomyr]

Hm.. yeah, i do agree with that, i do also think its a bad argument for letting the Avengers cross borders as they please with no oversight.

I agree with you there.

The inciting incident for the Civil War movie was an Avenger op in Nigeria, done without informing the local government, without their cooperation and fully endangering the local population.

Just because I want these kind of events to be more tighlty monitored doesnt mean i think "sky portal opening with an invading army" would need paper pushers triplicate authorization either.

[Dr.Samurai]

Sure, on the other hand, 6 months later Thanos or whatever appears in the Ukraine, or North Korea, Russia/China and their allies in the UN refuse to let the Avengers deal with it and millions die whilst the world's heroes are legally required to watch, helplessly.

You are describing a possible scenario. You aren't describing a reason to ignore the Accords or consider them dead on arrival. The Avengers would save the world in that scenario and the UN would say that they were authorized. It would be a fight or a scandal or something, but they woudl try and make it work. Similar to how Tony tells Steve "we can still say that everything that happened was Accords sanctioned if you just sign".

No one is a saint in these scenarios, things don't work perfectly, but the Accords provide *something* to go by. As opposed to throwing their hands in the air and not doing anything at all.

I don't think they'd hesitate to dispatch the Avengers in the case of an alien invasion.

All that said, I think it'd be cool to look into the politics of how nations that are on cool or tense terms with the US might try to declaw a team of superpowered US citizens.

[lord_khaine]

All that said, I think it'd be cool to look into the politics of how nations that are on cool or tense terms with the US might try to declaw a team of superpowered US citizens.

I do think its a massive part of the problem. Namelig that about.. 90% or so of the Heroes are either US citizens, or act so much like it might as well be the case.
We got Black Panther and Thor. Thats about it i think?

[Dr.Samurai]

Wanda is also called out as not a US citizen when he and Tony argue about her being detained to the compound.

[Sapphire Guard]

Yes, a double standard. Since we're not mindless robots or naive children and we can look past scary buzz-words at the context of the situation and realize it's the only reasonable choice that doesn't end up with the planet destroyed. People who have the power to protect the planet, and a history of doing so, should get more lee-way than people who don't. That seems pretty simple.

I think we have a wire crossed here, because I'm talking about the double standard of being okay with Batman vindictively killing people in one film but not okay with it in another one.

Oh you're right. This organization would never be susceptible to evil or incompetence. I guess it's time to arrest the people who have saved the planet 3 times and put the guy who created the Abomination and set it loose in a city in charge! Very compelling.

[QUOTEWho, exactly, are these good and noble people behind the accords?

Because we have the veep of the US organizing murders, the king of Wakanda trying to murder folks, all the governmental folks that Hydra infiltrated(including US gov folks) trying to, again, murder people....

Who are the policymakers portrayed in the MCU who *aren't* evil?][/QUOTE]

Presumably the President and the King of Wakanda that was just killed in the bombing, but my point was just that the organisation that nuked new York and built the helicarriers is not the one that is behind the Accords, so they can't be held accountable for something they had nothing at all to do with.

There were no smiles. They only come, barely, when Lois is around. He doesn't look sad for people, he looks bothered. If there was concern, and he was flurrying around trying to help, ok. But that is not what the film is portraying. The film is portraying a Superman that is conflicted about being a hero to the point that you wonder why he is actually doing it.
As for the pause, how about 'who do I save first?'
How about he is a god and they are reaching up to the heavens for salvation, and he has to make a choice to give it to them or not.

That's the whole point of DCEU Superman, and that's why that scene is shot like that and not with Superman, you know, actually saving anyone.

That's an actual montage of him saving people.

What I got from BVS was almost the exact opposite, in that Superman is just trying to save people but is being unwillingly deified by those he rescues, which he is uncomfortable with. He's 'just a guy trying to do the right thing.'

Smiling during an active threat is highly inappropriate. Those flooding victims, even escaping with their lives, have lost their homes and livelihood, that's not something to be happy about.

Re the Accords, it is kind of notable that so far the best Weapon the villains have against the Avengers is the Avengers. Pretty much all of them build their plans around turning the Avengers against each other for high casualties and/or property damage.

[lord_khaine]

Wanda is also called out as not a US citizen when he and Tony argue about her being detained to the compound.

Yes i know, but i still think she fits under the heading of "might as well be".
She certainly moved into the country, and seemed like she applied for a visa or whatever the term is.

[Lethologica]

Without commentary, I would like to point out that BvS does show Superman smiling while performing a rescue:

Spoiler

Show

[Frozen_Feet]

Re the Accords, it is kind of notable that so far the best Weapon the villains have against the Avengers is the Avengers. Pretty much all of them build their plans around turning the Avengers against each other for high casualties and/or property damage.

Well yeah.

That's why most arguments based on how mundane governments are corruptible or totally HYDRA fall flat. Yeah, the Avengers have reasons to be skeptic of mundane authorities. The mundane authorities have as many reasons to be skeptic of the Avengers, and many of them are exactly the same reasons! Because the Avengers themselves are not beyond being corrupted, bewitched or manipulated. Ultimately, Civil War is all about how even the most morally grounded Avenger can be made to act criminally by some dude from Sokovia.

Because of this, whether the Accords worked or even could work is secondary. We could agree that any possible implementation would be victim of "But who watches the watchmen?" problem, but neither the Avengers nor the mundane authorities can stop trying, because the issue is too big to ignore.

[Aotrs Commander]

Yes. It does.

Claiming as a hypothetical that during Doomsday Armaggedon scenario, Ukraine/Russia/China would insist on refusing Avenger help because they.. dont want to, and thus let themselves dies?

Thats stupid and strawmanish.

On the other hand... Postulate that the Avengers all turn out to have appeared in China or Russia or something. Someone invades New York, as in the first movie. The Foreign Avengers want to come help, but General Ross insists that, no, his forces can handle it, he's not letting some foreign freaks muscle in on his turf, because he is an overconfident, arrogant buffoon; he predictably fails and dies, the bad guys finish their World Ruling Mcguffin and win.

(Or vise-versa with regular Avengers Moskow/Beijing invader with Russian/Chinese General Ross.)

If Foreign Avengers come to save the day, instead, General Ross has them arrested if he possibly can and tries to have political power brought on the Foreign Country (because dammit, saving the day was his job) - regardless of whether any accords exist or not.

(I mean, this, like, actually happened in Agents of SHIELD, where they went in to save a Russian general and who then did his damnest to get some of his rescuers executed because it suited his political purposes.)

Marvel universes are full of enough political and military frackwits of sufficient magnitude that I think that would be an actual possibility. They really ARE that freaking dumb, some of them.

[Rater202]

On the other hand... Postulate that the Avengers all turn out to have appeared in China or Russia or something. Someone invades New York, as in the first movie. The Foreign Avengers want to come help, but General Ross insists that, no, his forces can handle it, he's not letting some foreign freaks muscle in on his turf, because he is an overconfident, arrogant buffoon; he predictably fails and dies, the bad guys finish their World Ruling Mcguffin and win.

(Or vise-versa with regular Avengers Moskow/Beijing invader with Russian/Chinese General Ross.)

If Foreign Avengers come to save the day, instead, General Ross has them arrested if he possibly can and tries to have political power brought on the Foreign Country (because dammit, saving the day was his job) - regardless of whether any accords exist or not.

(I mean, this, like, actually happened in Agents of SHIELD, where they went in to save a Russian general and who then did his damnest to get some of his rescuers executed because it suited his political purposes.)

Marvel universes are full of enough political and military frackwits of sufficient magnitude that I think that would be an actual possibility. They really ARE that freaking dumb, some of them.

Marvel is the universe where the only people who noticed that Dock Ock stole Spider-Man's body were Peter Parker's ex-girlfriend and his arch nemesis.

Everyone in the Marvel Universe is stupid, not just government officials or millitary leaders.

There are like fifty brains for seven billion people and everybody in the world is taking turns with one of them.

[Sapphire Guard]

On the other hand... Postulate that the Avengers all turn out to have appeared in China or Russia or something. Someone invades New York, as in the first movie. The Foreign Avengers want to come help, but General Ross insists that, no, his forces can handle it, he's not letting some foreign freaks muscle in on his turf, because he is an overconfident, arrogant buffoon; he predictably fails and dies, the bad guys finish their World Ruling Mcguffin and win.

(Or vise-versa with regular Avengers Moskow/Beijing invader with Russian/Chinese General Ross.)

If Foreign Avengers come to save the day, instead, General Ross has them arrested if he possibly can and tries to have political power brought on the Foreign Country (because dammit, saving the day was his job) - regardless of whether any accords exist or not.

(I mean, this, like, actually happened in Agents of SHIELD, where they went in to save a Russian general and who then did his damnest to get some of his rescuers executed because it suited his political purposes.)

Marvel universes are full of enough political and military frackwits of sufficient magnitude that I think that would be an actual possibility. They really ARE that freaking dumb, some of them.

Regardless of whether Accords exist or not, that's going to happen anyway.