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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I am answering it, by making it irrelevant. The character in question doesn't HAVE Fluidic Form, and therefore nothing about Fluidic Form MATTERS for them any more than it does for a straight fighter.

    I can't imagine anyone ever playing this with a starting level below 3, and not starting out fallen, because, as established, low level oozemorphs are unplayable due to not being allowed to actually interact with anything.
    You can't teach druidic, change alignment, or activate Fluidic Body with an undefined movespeed. The game pauses until you address the error.

    Since you aren't offering an interpretation, your exploit can't happen. The archetype can't be played until you read and interpret the rules.
    Last edited by Mara; 2017-12-01 at 01:12 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    You can't teach druidic or change alignment with an undefined movespeed. The game pauses until you address the error.

    Since you aren't offering an interpretation, your exploit can't happen. The archetype can't be played until you read and interpret the rules.
    Except, as stated, that happened in the background, since this character is starting already fallen. At no point are they played with an undefined move speed.

    I don't CARE what the answer is, because at no point do I intend to touch an ability written by someone who decided putting a daily limit on talking was a good idea. You can use whatever interpretation you want, because the end result doesn't MATTER to this.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Except, as stated, that happened in the background, since this character is starting already fallen. At no point are they played with an undefined move speed.

    I don't CARE what the answer is, because at no point do I intend to touch an ability written by someone who decided putting a daily limit on talking was a good idea. You can use whatever interpretation you want, because the end result doesn't MATTER to this.
    The only possible outcome is that you can't play the archetype even the background calculations pause until you address the undefined move speed question.

    At my table you would be stuck in oozeform until you atone. Because I don't consider Oozeform as SU or part of Fluidic Body or a Polymorph effect.

    I wanted to talk about this under your interpretation but since you refuse to give it, I'll just have to say your exploit doesn't work.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    At my table you would be stuck in oozeform until you atone. Because I don't consider Oozeform as SU or part of Fluidic Body or a Polymorph effect.
    This is a hell of a trick considering that it's explicitly labeled supernatural. You wanna explain this incredible feat of grammatical innovation?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Look at this archetype. This is what a fallen oozemorph looks like. Show me the problem.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    This is a hell of a trick considering that it's explicitly labeled supernatural. You wanna explain this incredible feat of grammatical innovation?
    I would advocate that Oozeform is only described in Fluidic Body. It's an infliction applied to the oozemorph's base form. It's not a polymorph effect nor is it an SU effect. This is supported by oozeform working in antimagic fields (which SUs normally can't). It satisfies dev intent that magic items aren't usable in oozeform because you have no slots nor do the polymorph rules for melded gear let you keep magic item effects (though the dev wanted gear to both meld in the form and be unusable, but he admits the gear melding in part was removed). Lastly, you don't have to ignore the general Polymorph rules that say you gain your forms move speed. Since oozeform doesn't have a defined move speed, if it was a Polymorph effect, you would either get an undefined move speed or you have to ignore those rules. As an affliction it merely alters the base form and doesn't have to ignore nearly as many rules.

    Since the ability states "This is a polymorph effect", the "This" is ambiguously about oozeform or is referring to Fluidic Body as a whole.

    I believe the interpretation that functions best is that Oozeform isn't a Polymorph effect, SU, or part of Fluidic body. It's functional and lines up with dev intentions the most.

    I also like saying you just ignore the form rules in polymorph general rule and that Oozeform is a Polymorph effect, SU, and a part of Fluidic body, but that strikes my as the munchkin interpretation because it lets you use magic item effects in Oozeform when you weren't intended too.

    Other interpretation I'm aware of is that you get an undefined move speed and the game breaks.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    I would advocate that Oozeform is only described in Fluidic Body.
    You would advocate for a very nice houserule then. As written, Oozeform is undeniably a part of Fluidic Body. If it wasn't, it would have its own class feature entry and not be part of Fluidic Body.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    You would advocate for a very nice houserule then. As written, Oozeform is undeniably a part of Fluidic Body. If it wasn't, it would have its own class feature entry and not be part of Fluidic Body.
    And now you are ignoring the Polymorph general rules and dev intent.

    You have to do SOMETHING uncouth to get the archetype working.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    dev intent
    If the devs intended it to be a separate ability, they very easily could have made it a separate ability. It's not exactly hard to do.

    As is, this method is the closest thing that shifter gets to being a halfway decent class, because it allows it to function as a dip for a pair of decent natural weapons, compression, and ooze empatht. Which makes it a pretty fun dip for, say, a rogue. Compression is a thief's wet dream, and suddenly you can befriend all those nasty oozes in the sewers? That sounds like great use of a level.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    If the devs intended it to be a separate ability, they very easily could have made it a separate ability. It's not exactly hard to do.

    As is, this method is the closest thing that shifter gets to being a halfway decent class, because it allows it to function as a dip for a pair of decent natural weapons, compression, and ooze empatht. Which makes it a pretty fun dip for, say, a rogue. Compression is a thief's wet dream, and suddenly you can befriend all those nasty oozes in the sewers? That sounds like great use of a level.
    And you are ignoring parts of the Polymorph general rules.

    Which I was asking you if you wanted to do because I think it's a fine interpretation. You were the one insistent on not interpreting the rules.
    Last edited by Mara; 2017-12-01 at 02:00 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    And you are ignoring parts of the Polymorph general rules.

    Which I was asking you if you wanted to do because I think it's a fine interpretation. You were the one insistent on not interpreting the rules.
    I'm saying that the polymorph rules are irrelevant to me. Whatever ruling you give, I don't have Fluidic Body, and as such I don't have an Oozeform.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I'm saying that the polymorph rules are irrelevant to me. Whatever ruling you give, I don't have Fluidic Body, and as such I don't have an Oozeform.
    You are stuck in oozeform then because you are defaulting to my interpretation instead of offering your own.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    You are stuck in oozeform then because you are defaulting to my interpretation instead of offering your own.
    No, I'm not, because your interpretation, that Oozeform is not part of Fluidic Form despite being part of Fluidic Form, is factually incorrect.

    Your "ruling" is not a ruling, it is a houserule.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    No, I'm not, because your interpretation, that Oozeform is not part of Fluidic Form despite being part of Fluidic Form, is factually incorrect.

    Your "ruling" is not a ruling, it is a houserule.
    Fluidic Body has RAW questions that must be addressed before it is playable and depending on the answer your trick doesn't work.

    You don't get to skip them. They must be answered before you can do anything that would let you "fall" background or otherwise.

    The most pure RAW, is that the archetype is unplayable and you can't use it. So playing it at all can be considered a houserule. Calling what I'm doing that means nothing because you could be blatantly houseruling to even get to the point that you "fall" as an oozemorph.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I'm not talking about wearing armor, I'm talking about alignment change or teaching someone else Druidic. Or hell, tell nature to screw off.
    This means you lose Fluidic Body, and all parts of the ability. There is no exception made in any of the class features.
    It's pretty obvious that this trick is technically legal but highly likely to get errata'ed, and good luck getting it past any reasonable GM before that.

    And that's really too bad, because playing an oozemorph-without-its-main-ability is actually much more playable and fun than using the entire archetype. The whole book feels rather rushed, they should have edited this better.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2017-12-01 at 02:28 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    It's pretty obvious that the devs didn't plan on anyone intentionally falling to make the archetype useable.
    At the same time, the RAW interpretation is pretty clear-cut - lose the ability, and you no longer have the "natural ooze form".
    The proper fix would be to just make that ability extraordinary, or split it into two (one that grants the ooze form and is EX, one that gives the polymorph and is SU).

    Of course, you can just play a Kitsune, Skinwalker, or other race that gains some natural form of shapeshifting without limited duration. Use your natural form of shapeshifting, never worry about not having a humanoid shape. Enjoy your two natural weapons, having unique access to compression, and if you dip a second level, even some decent damage reduction.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    Fluidic Body has RAW questions that must be addressed before it is playable and depending on the answer your trick doesn't work.

    You don't get to skip them. They must be answered before you can do anything that would let you "fall" background or otherwise.

    The most pure RAW, is that the archetype is unplayable and you can't use it. So playing it at all can be considered a houserule. Calling what I'm doing that means nothing because you could be blatantly houseruling to even get to the point that you "fall" as an oozemorph.
    You're being incredibly rude and pedantic, by the way. Like, extremely so. The archetype is unplayable without the falling fix, so just fall in your backstory. And if it doesn't mention a movespeed - why are you hung up on that of all things? - then just use your race's base movespeed.

    It states that it's treated -as- a polymorph effect. That doesn't mean it -is- a polymorph effect. You're treated as an ooze for all the important things and it can be assumed that your basic playability is still a thing that exists - you aren't stationary.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galacktic View Post
    You're being incredibly rude and pedantic, by the way. Like, extremely so. The archetype is unplayable without the falling fix, so just fall in your backstory. And if it doesn't mention a movespeed - why are you hung up on that of all things? - then just use your race's base movespeed.

    It states that it's treated -as- a polymorph effect. That doesn't mean it -is- a polymorph effect. You're treated as an ooze for all the important things and it can be assumed that your basic playability is still a thing that exists - you aren't stationary.
    Rude is refusing to read and interpret a class and then attempt to discuss it and keep refusing to explain what you are doing.

    I think that is a fine interpretation of Fluidic Body that you presented. No you don't get to skip that and hand wave it in the background. The archetype is unplayable without interpretation.

    I would also disagree that it is unplayable without falling. Oozeform is a fine but wonky way to play the first few levels and many of my friends are thrilled at the idea. Talking is not the entirety of roleplaying. You don't need to do it all of the time.
    Last edited by Mara; 2017-12-01 at 02:44 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The whole book feels rather rushed, they should have edited this better.
    I feel like we've been saying that a lot about Paizo products as of late.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    2. Base shifter is non-viable. You need to invest heavily in UMD and grab monkey aspect by 10 to use wands to boost both your to-hit and AC. You need to grab heavy armor Prof and your boss killing form is wolverine for the barbarian rage. With all of that you get something workable. Dex shifter has to do the same things sans heavy armor Prof and has access to less good forms and the critical feat is getting nerfed soon.
    I'd be curious what criteria you're using to deem the base-line Shifter non-viable. Unimpressive, sure? But what I'm seeing shows the class doing just fine as a melee martial so long as you utilize Shifter's Edge. Without any gear, I'm seeing 18 AC with a +10 to hit at level 4, 21 AC with +16 to hit at level 8 and 22 AC +20 to hit at level 12. Only feats selected so far are Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Claws and Shifter's Edge, so non-claw attacks are at a -1.

    You fluctuate between a 65% and 80% chance to hit an enemy with a CR equal to your level as you level, without any buffs that you don't grant yourself. Once you can afford your Amulet of Mighty Fists and Wild Armor you're doing fine, but there's actually an argument to made for relying on Mage Armor with a Dex build if you want to forgo that expense.

    As for the nerf to Shifter's Edge, so far that's just a forum post and it will be some time before errata comes out (if it ever does). I'm pretty much a hard-liner on just ignoring Paizo's errata at this point, but if the nerf happens and if you can't ignore it then choosing Bull as your second aspect mitigates the damage loss a bit. You may just want to go with an Agile amulet amulet instead though, I haven't crunched the numbers on Agile w/out Shifter's Edge versus Shifter's Edge and a bit of Str.
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ View Post
    I feel like we've been saying that a lot about Paizo products as of late.




    I'd be curious what criteria you're using to deem the base-line Shifter non-viable. Unimpressive, sure? But what I'm seeing shows the class doing just fine as a melee martial so long as you utilize Shifter's Edge. Without any gear, I'm seeing 18 AC with a +10 to hit at level 4, 21 AC with +16 to hit at level 8 and 22 AC +20 to hit at level 12. Only feats selected so far are Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Claws and Shifter's Edge, so non-claw attacks are at a -1.

    You fluctuate between a 65% and 80% chance to hit an enemy with a CR equal to your level as you level, without any buffs that you don't grant yourself. Once you can afford your Amulet of Mighty Fists and Wild Armor you're doing fine, but there's actually an argument to made for relying on Mage Armor with a Dex build if you want to forgo that expense.

    As for the nerf to Shifter's Edge, so far that's just a forum post and it will be some time before errata comes out (if it ever does). I'm pretty much a hard-liner on just ignoring Paizo's errata at this point, but if the nerf happens and if you can't ignore it then choosing Bull as your second aspect mitigates the damage loss a bit. You may just want to go with an Agile amulet amulet instead though, I haven't crunched the numbers on Agile w/out Shifter's Edge versus Shifter's Edge and a bit of Str.
    It's late levels that are the problem. You are expected to cap at 30 dex and 20 wis, so AC: 10 base + 10 dex + 5 wis + 5 monk + 5 deflection = 35, 4 more from mouse form (your boss killer), thus 40 AC and two claws that do one-handed damage. workable AC, pitiful damage.

    A large form is unworkable due to accuracy loss.

    Your martial will be less than effective for a big final boss fight, you are destined to be sub standard without UMD.

    I personally feel strength is more powerful, but that isn't saying much.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ View Post
    I feel like we've been saying that a lot about Paizo products as of late.
    My guess is that they're splitting their team between Pathfinder and Starfinder and the seams are beginning to show.

    Starfinder itself, so far at least, is quite well-edited.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Ooze form shifter - Anything in it that says you cannot make normal unarmed attacks?
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    It's late levels that are the problem. You are expected to cap at 30 dex and 20 wis
    Most campaigns never get anywhere near that high. I'm more interested to see how well the archetype performs at levels 5 through 10, and so far it appears to be doing pretty well there. At low level it appears problematic because you're stuck in ooze form about 90% of the time and you just can't do much in ooze form.

    It's still not great though. DR is good, but clinging ooze and ooze empathy are mostly useless, and morphic weaponry is a limitation rather than a bonus. But it's a highly original archetype and at least it's workable.
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Well my question above is till standing.. But I've got a way to make the weirdest Ooze shifter.


    Level 1 - Take Constructed pugilist Brawler to get a robot arm. Take possessed hand. If you start off human, you can also take hands anatomy.
    Level 2 - Take ooze form shifter to gain ooze form.
    Level 3 - Take a level of Alchemist. Take Hands detatchment
    Level 4 - Take second level of Alchemist - Get tumor Familiar
    Level 5 on ward take ooze shifter or whatever.

    So once you take ooze form shifter, your robot arm falls off. Then while ooze form you could have your tumor familiar leave your body or rejoin it as you wish. Whats more you could detatch your 'hand' Which suddenly becomes a crawling hand or maybe you can't while you're not shifted.
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    Default Re: How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    It's late levels that are the problem. You are expected to cap at 30 dex and 20 wis, so AC: 10 base + 10 dex + 5 wis + 5 monk + 5 deflection = 35, 4 more from mouse form (your boss killer), thus 40 AC and two claws that do one-handed damage. workable AC, pitiful damage.

    A large form is unworkable due to accuracy loss.

    Your martial will be less than effective for a big final boss fight, you are destined to be sub standard without UMD.

    I personally feel strength is more powerful, but that isn't saying much.

    Gotcha. Well your mouse wouldn't actually get two claw attacks, it would get a single bite attack using your claw stats and 1.5x Str bonus (or dex if you're subbing that in). This really isn't an optimal build at all.

    Take a look at this level 16 build where you actually polymorph into Tiger form.

    General: Human, Str 12, Dex 22(28), Con 14(20), Int 12, Wis 14(20), Cha 7, FCB: Skill Ranks

    Traits: Adopted > Cruel Child, Awakened from Stasis

    Aspects: Bear, Dino, Mouse, Tiger

    Feats: Energized Wild Shape (Acid), Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Mutated Shape (Claw), Piranha Strike, Planar Wild Shape, Shifter's Edge, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Claw), Wild Speech

    Gear: +5 Wild Darkleaf Cloth Spider-Silk Bodysuit, +4 Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, Fleshcraft Graft: Stinging Tail, Fleshcraft Graft: Wings of Darkness, Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Ring of Protection +5, Shifter's Headband (+6 Wis)


    Ok, so let me explain what we've got going on here. The Cruel Child trait gives you +1 to attack rolls with claw attacks when making a full attack. I'm assuming you have Haste as your sole external buff and you stay in Dire Tiger form, so this gives us 3 strong claw attacks and 1 weaker (mutant) claw attack each round. That gives you pretty good odds to activate your Rake. We're also adding on a Gore attack, a poisonous Stinging Tail attack and a Bite attack to that list. We have 8 attacks per full attack, and since we're pouncing in our Dire Tiger form and can make a flying charge against targets within 120 feet I think we've got pretty good odds of getting that full attack off. Oh, and just for kicks that second trait gives us the benefits of 8 hours of sleep after a 2 hour cat nap which is a boon for utility use of shapeshift forms.

    Assume a flying charge, Haste, Agile and current rules for Shifter's Edge. My attacks are as follows:
    +32 Shifter's Claws x3: 3d8+28+1d6 element
    +32 Mutated Form Claw: 1d8+12+1d6 element
    Rend: 1d10+12+1d6 element
    +30 Bite: 2d8+12+1d6 element
    +30 Gore: 1d8+12+1d6 element
    +30 Stinging Tail: 1d6+12+1d6 element, 3/day DC 20 Dex poison, 1d4 Dex damage, 1/round for 4 rounds

    Note, I've also applied either the Fiendish or the Celestial template to myself while using Wild Shape. If I use Smite Evil/Good that's another +16 damage per attack for an effective boss killer (since that's 1/day). The templates all give me Spell Resistance 21 (CR + 5), Energy Resistance 15 against certain elements and DR 10/Good or Evil.

    At this point I would take 4 levels of Unchained Rogue (Scout) and make sure to grab the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to finish up the build. I know this isn't pure Shifter now, but this is too silly not to do. This lets you deal 3d6 sneak attack on each attack made while charging, which combos well with our Pounce ability. If the target is somehow still alive, our Debilitating injury can be used to make sure the target takes a -4 AC penalty against our attacks on the next round.

    Edit: P.S. please check my math and assumptions. I whipped up that build tonight and Hero Lab doesn't fully support some things that should have been legal. (like it kept trying to apply 1.5 Dex to various attacks).
    Last edited by NightbringerGGZ; 2017-12-01 at 11:43 PM.
    WIP - Nightbringer's Guide to the Pathfinder Fighter
    Please send me any feedback you have! This is a huge undertaking as I'm evaluating all Combat Feats, a bunch of other feats and Combat Stamina too!.

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