Can someone please explain the ‘coffeelock’ to me?

[CantigThimble]

Hmm, is it? What is my definition of a short rest, according to you?

Oh, sorry, that was more directed at Ganymede's reply to me.

What I mean is that I think defining a rest as: 'From when you start resting until you start adventuring again'

is an arbitrary way to run things. And the natural consequence of that idea is the mental gymnastics of redefining any action that isn't what the DM considers to be 'adventuring' to be 'resting', because otherwise the resting hasn't ended yet.

[Ganymede]

What I mean is that I think defining a rest as: 'From when you start resting until you start adventuring again'

is an arbitrary way to run things.

It really isn't. The entire preamble to the resting rules is about the resting/adventuring dichotomy. It isn't like I'm making it up.

[CantigThimble]

It really isn't. The entire preamble to the resting rules is about the resting/adventuring dichotomy. It isn't like I'm making it up.

Whether you made it up or the designers made it up, I think that way of running a game is unecessarily arbitrary and I wouldn't run it that way because of that.

[Ganymede]

Fair enough.

[Easy_Lee]

"Ever since I made my pact with (Baphomet/Titania/Cthulu/The Raven Queen/whoever) I don't seem to need sleep. In fact, I can't seem to sleep. Every night, while my companions sleep, I meditate to build my power. But communing with such an eldritch entity is really intense for me - every hour or so, I have to break off my meditation and take a breather so my mind doesn't snap from contemplating the dark secrets I've learned. I find that going for a jog or chopping firewood - anything physical, really - helps a lot. Once I clear my mind a bit, I return to my meditation. By the time my friends awaken, my magic is brimming with power. I feel like a limitless font of energy - who knows how far I can push myself. Honestly, I'm almost afraid to find out."

I'd +1 this if I could.

To the whole short rest vs long rest thing, I want to remind everyone that you can't benefit from a long rest unless you sleep for six hours or Trance for four. If you didn't do that, you can't have taken a long rest.

It's also a very bad idea, as a DM, to tell your players that they just did something that they weren't trying to do because of some mechanical nuance. Players don't appreciate that kind of thing.

[Malifice]

It's also a very bad idea, as a DM, to tell your players that they just did something that they weren't trying to do because of some mechanical nuance. Players don't appreciate that kind of thing.

Unsure why you're so adversarial towards DMs.

The game is a collective social experience really. The DM has a key role in all of this by providing challenging encounters, maintaining balance, ensuring all players get a chance to participate and shine, and so forth.

I find it weird that you're so quick to label a DM who polices the adventuring day (as per the guidelines in the DMG) in order to maintain class balance, encounter difficulty and so forth to be 'tyrannical'.

Player: Hey DM I want to cycle rests, getting up every hour for a 5 minite jog. My roleplaying reasons to justify this are (X)
DM: Fine; your PC can do that all he wants because agency and all that, but you get no mechanical benefit from it. Behind the curtain mate, expect an opportunity for a short rest every 2-3 encounters, and a long rest every 6-8 as a median. Don't try to game it and well be fine.

Perhaps you view that as 'tyrannical' DMing, or me treading on your agency or what have you. Personally I just view it as me maintaining class and encounter balance, and policing the adventuring day.

I'd prefer to so it less heavy handed of course (simple social contract by all at the table not to try and game the system, or abuse the 5MWD etc) but if I have to say no with an explanation why, I'll do that as well.

[Easy_Lee]

Unsure why you're so adversarial towards DMs.

The game is a collective social experience really. The DM has a key role in all of this by providing challenging encounters, maintaining balance, ensuring all players get a chance to participate and shine, and so forth.

I find it weird that you're so quick to label a DM who polices the adventuring day (as per the guidelines in the DMG) in order to maintain class balance, encounter difficulty and so forth to be 'tyrannical'.

Player: Hey DM I want to cycle rests, getting up every hour for a 5 minite jog. My roleplaying reasons to justify this are (X)
DM: Fine; your PC can do that all he wants because agency and all that, but you get no mechanical benefit from it. Behind the curtain mate, expect an opportunity for a short rest every 2-3 encounters, and a long rest every 6-8 as a median. Don't try to game it and well be fine.

Perhaps you view that as 'tyrannical' DMing, or me treading on your agency or what have you. Personally I just view it as me maintaining class and encounter balance, and policing the adventuring day.

I'd prefer to so it less heavy handed of course (simple social contract by all at the table not to try and game the system, or abuse the 5MWD etc) but if I have to say no with an explanation why, I'll do that as well.

You misunderstand me, and I suspect you're doing it on purpose. I am a DM; you know that. I don't have a problem with a DM doing his job. I have a problem when dungeon masters take the "master" part too seriously. Again, I suspect you know this, and are trying to dismiss my points by miss-characterizing my intent.

A DM does not dictate player actions. Don't take my word for it, see here. Specifically:

• I Can’t Run a Game Without Trust
• I Am Not on the Players’ Sides, But I Am Not Their Enemy Either
• I Will Not Take a Character’s Freedom Away Unless the Player Agrees
• Players Should Know All The Options their Characters Have

And so I'll say this again: if you don't want to allow this build, be upfront about it.

[CantigThimble]

I think there's a pretty fundamental disagreement on what a 'short rest' means.

I think of a short rest as a tool in the character's box, like any of their other abilities. (I'm being precise when I say character, not player here) They know how many spell slots they have and what they can do with them, they know how often they can fly into a berzerk rage before they'll get worn out and they know, they know in general how much stuff they can accomplish in 6 seconds, and they know that they can rest for an hour or so and regain the use of some of their powers. The character has done these things hundreds of times, this is their life, they have a pretty good idea of how these things work.

The player is roleplaying as their character. They are attempting to replicate the judgement of the character they have come up with and apply that to the task at hand.

This is opposed to a more meta-game view of abilities, where characters have some vague idea of what they are capable of, but not in any quantifiable sense. They might have some idea that if they rest for enough time then they'll regain some of their capabilities but aren't sure how long to rest of what capabilities they're getting back until they take the action and it is decided on the meta-game level what happens.

If you're operating under the first view, then a character suddenly not knowing how to take a short rest as effectively as possible in as little time as possible, and repeat that feat, is nonsensical and frustrating. It pulls the player out of the character's perspective as they run into a meta-game brick wall.

I think a reasonable solution to this would be some kind of limit, like 3-4 short rests per 24 hours. It maintains the necessary balance while still allowing the rest to be a tool in the character's toolbox and not a meta-game absctraction.

[Malifice]

You misunderstand me, and I suspect you're doing it on purpose. I am a DM; you know that. I don't have a problem with a DM doing his job. I have a problem when dungeon masters take the "master" part too seriously. Again, I suspect you know this, and are trying to dismiss my points by miss-characterizing my intent.

A DM does not dictate player actions. Don't take my word for it, see here. Specifically:

• I Can’t Run a Game Without Trust
• I Am Not on the Players’ Sides, But I Am Not Their Enemy Either
• I Will Not Take a Character’s Freedom Away Unless the Player Agrees
• Players Should Know All The Options their Characters Have

And so I'll say this again: if you don't want to allow this build, be upfront about it.

I'll allow the build.

I just don't allow my players to game the rest mechanic. That includes cycling short rests and the 5MWD.

I police the AD in my games. It's part of the DMs job to do so.

Generally speaking nova builds aren't that good in my games.

And in no way am I interfering with a players agency. Feel free to go for a 5 minute jog every hour 'for character reasons'. I'm just ruling that it doesn't do squat (aside from attract random encounters).

I have zero time for players gaming the system. I get that you don't mind it, but were different DMs I guess.

[Ganymede]

If you're operating under the first view, then a character suddenly not knowing how to take a short rest as effectively as possible in as little time as possible, and repeat that feat, is nonsensical and frustrating. It pulls the player out of the character's perspective as they run into a meta-game brick wall.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that characters shouldn't know that, if they rest for an hour or more, they get the benefits of that rest at its conclusion. It isn't a rules sticking point, and it isn't a narrative sticking point.

If anything, a stronger case can be made that the opposite position is what ruins PC perspective and causes rest meta-gaming. We've already seen how the motive to stack spell slots has inspired players here to brainstorm gamist ways to artificially compartmentalize their downtime.

Someone here even suggested PCs could randomly stab themselves every hour on the hour in order to end a short rest and begin another. If that doesn't pull "the player out of the character's perspective as they run into a meta-game brick wall," I don't know what does.

[krugaan]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that characters shouldn't know that, if they rest for an hour or more, they get the benefits of that rest at its conclusion. It isn't a rules sticking point, and it isn't a narrative sticking point.

If anything, a stronger case can be made that the opposite position is what ruins PC perspective and causes rest meta-gaming. We've already seen how the motive to stack spell slots has inspired players here to brainstorm gamist ways to artificially compartmentalize their downtime.

Someone here even suggested PCs could randomly stab themselves every hour on the hour in order to end a short rest and begin another. If that doesn't pull "the player out of the character's perspective as they run into a meta-game brick wall," I don't know what does.

Sigh, because adversarial dms are finding adversarial ways of twisting raw to combat raw.

[Ganymede]

Sigh, because adversarial dms are finding adversarial ways of twisting raw to combat raw.

Adversarial DMs twisting RAW?

Literally no one in the history of 5e had any problem with waiting until the end of a rest to get the benefits of that rest until people on a forum started taking their Devil's Advocacy too seriously.

[krugaan]

Adversarial DMs twisting RAW?

Literally no one in the history of 5e had any problem with waiting until the end of a rest to get the benefits of that rest until people on a forum started taking their Devil's Advocacy too seriously.

Yes. I'm not going to elaborate either, because i did that a few pages back.

The argument is over, at least on my end.

[Malifice]

Sigh, because adversarial dms are finding adversarial ways of twisting raw to combat raw.

Mate, you view a DM policing the adventuring day and stopping a player from gaming the rest mechanic (via rest spamming or the 5MWD) as 'adversarial DMing'?

It's a player trying to game the system, and the DM is at fault for politely saying no?

Wow.

[krugaan]

Mate, you view a DM policing the adventuring day and stopping a player from gaming the rest mechanic (via rest spamming or the 5MWD) as 'adversarial DMing'?

It's a player trying to game the system, and the DM is at fault for politely saying no?

Wow.

You've changed in a year. Well, sort of.

[Arial Black]

Or, the DM replies, "you literally just told me you were done resting and ready to continue your adventure. If you aren't actually done resting, I'll need to roll back those benefits I gave you and hold off giving them again until you ACTUALLY finish resting."

Yeah, I rested, then did stuff that expended energy, then rested again to replace that lost energy. Y'know, just like every creature on the planet!

I run. I get out of breath. I rest until I regain my breath. When I have, I start to run again. Rinse and repeat. I am not 'gaming the system'; this is literally how resting works.

So I haven't taken two short rests without any activity between so that it could be mistaken for one two hour short rest. I have had a one hour short rest, then spent energy, then rested to regain that energy.

Player: DM, I've been running for 20 minutes, so I rest to regain my breath. How long until I get my breath back?
DM: You don't get your breath back, even after resting for seven hours, until you decide to stop resting.
Player: ??? I'm waiting to get my breath back. When I have, I'll be able to do something strenuous. I will be unable to do anything strenuous before I get my breath back. First, get breath back, then, exert myself using the energy I just regained. Like any normal person. Like 'cause and effect' dictates.
DM: Not in my game. In my game those who adapt their behaviour to take advantage of the way the universe functions are punished by the universe by natural laws working in reverse simply to prevent creatures from using their knowledge. So, you don't get your breath back until after you decide to exert yourself.
Player: So that means that it is not the lack of exertion that allows you to regain energy, but that the potential energy that will be regained reads your mind about your intentions with regard to how you will use it, preventing itself from refreshing you until you choose to expend it in a way of which it approves!!!
DM: Yep.
Player: Even so, exerting myself by using up all my slots means that I am, by definition, not 'resting' as I do so. Two rests, not one, interrupted by legitimate exertion.
DM: Then the universe conspires to create monsters to attack you every 55 minutes. That's how real universes work, isn't it?

[Ganymede]

I run. I get out of breath. I rest until I regain my breath. When I have, I start to run again. Rinse and repeat. I am not 'gaming the system'; this is literally how resting works.

None of this is compelling, especially cosidering what I describe is echoed by the actual resting rules and not some appeal to how resting should work based on your real-world ability to get winded after running 20 minutes.

PCs are doing one of two things: they are either adventuring or they are resting. Screwing around with spell slots at camp is still resting, whether you're adding flavor to bland rations with prestigitation or you're converting pact magic slots to spell points.


Anyways, as much as you try otherwise, you're still echoing the ridiculous scenario of wanting the benefits of resting in the middle of a rest as opposed to the end of a rest.

[Arial Black]

None of this is compelling, especially cosidering what I describe is echoed by the actual resting rules and not some appeal to how resting should work based on your real-world ability to get winded after running 20 minutes.

PCs are doing one of two things: they are either adventuring or they are resting. Screwing around with spell slots at camp is still resting, whether you're adding flavor to bland rations with prestigitation or you're converting pact magic slots to spell points.


Anyways, as much as you try otherwise, you're still echoing the ridiculous scenario of wanting the benefits of resting in the middle of a rest as opposed to the end of a rest.

In real life AND in game mechanics, you are EITHER resting and regaining energy, OR not resting because you are expending energy, whether that energy is in the form of spell slots or Ki points or Superiority points or what have you.

Nothing in the resting rules suggests that casting spells and using up limited resources (of the kind that are regained by resting!) counts as resting. It's like claiming that sprinting is part of the rest that regains your breath. It is absurd.

[Amdy_vill]

And then your DM smacks you and turns your character into a weasel with a true polymorph spell for trying to cheat the system.

it is not really cheating there are down sides and as long as you party is a noraml group you will only get some extra spell slots and no an ungodly amount

[Kyrinthic]

PHB:

Heroic though they might be, adventurers can't spend every hour of the day in the thick of exploration, social
interaction, and combat They need rest-time to sleep and eat, tend their wounds, refresh their minds
and spirits for spellcasting, and brace themselves for further adventure.

Adventurers can take short rests in the midst of an adventuring day and a long rest to end the day.

A long rest is not the same as 8 short rests. There is no wounds to tend or need to brace for further adventure back to back. Saying you can just take 8 short rests in a row would be much like saying a 'day' could be spent taking 3 long rests.

The game explicitly prevents the multiple long rests in a day, but, likely due to not foreseeing the coffeelock, did not explicitly cap short rests, leaving it open to GM interpretation. Some GMs will give short rests out after almost any difficult encounter, some can be hard pressed to give you the 3 per day the game is balanced around.

As a GM, after the first short rest, I would just tell the player trying to go into a second one, you do not feel strained, you need to do something meaningful before you can benefit from another short rest, and no, thinking really hard doesn't count. Just because the duration of a short rest is 1/8th of a long rest does not mean that you can just turn a long rest into 8 short rests any more than a GM can force someone sitting around for 8 hours to take a long rest, they are different things.


I don't think anyone in this argument can fool themselves into thinking this is intended behavior, or rules as intended. It may not be horribly broken in some games, especially if everyone is trying to optimize characters, but in many it is. I trivializes resource management scenarios and the like, and means every other player that is a caster that needs to conserve high level spell slots feels like a waste of space to the party. Sure that sorcadin can break an encounter, but the coffeelock can break the adventure.


But, like all things, this is the sort of conversation that a forum will never solve, and only the player and GM of their game talking with each other will resolve. just ask the gm if this kinda loophole concept is ok in the game, ensure you explain what it means (I am a few levels behind from a multiclass, but I can cast infinite spells of my highest level with metamagic), and see if they are ok with it. Some will, and thats great. Many wont, and you just don't play it, since fighting against the GM isn't fun for anyone.

[Maelynn]

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but I couldn't make myself read 10 pages.

As a DM, I would allow this exploit. After all, the player is free to decide what their character does and does not do.

Action do have certain consequences, though. As a DM, that is my prerogative to decide (see PHB 117 on CON checks).

So, you go 24h without a long rest*? Go right ahead, but by dawn you roll a CON check (DC 15, +2 for every consecutive night). Fail that check, you get 1 level of exhaustion. Succeed, well done - enjoy your benefit. Feel free to try again tomorrow.

My reasoning? They're adventurers who are very active during the day. They march, they fight, they do a lot of strenuous things. Even if you don't need actual sleep, you can't just pull an all-nighter and be all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed by morning. And I'm sure many of us can tell from experience (at least, I can) that a number of consecutive catnaps is not the same as uninterrupted sleep. Well, the same goes for resting: a series of short rests is not the same as one long rest. Hence the CON check.

* during which you do whatever it is that your character needs: 6h sleep + 2h relaxing, 4h trance, whatever

[Kyrinthic]

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but I couldn't make myself read 10 pages.

As a DM, I would allow this exploit. After all, the player is free to decide what their character does and does not do.

Action do have certain consequences, though. As a DM, that is my prerogative to decide (see PHB 117 on CON checks).

So, you go 24h without a long rest*? Go right ahead, but by dawn you roll a CON check (DC 15, +2 for every consecutive night). Fail that check, you get 1 level of exhaustion. Succeed, well done - enjoy your benefit. Feel free to try again tomorrow.

My reasoning? They're adventurers who are very active during the day. They march, they fight, they do a lot of strenuous things. Even if you don't need actual sleep, you can't just pull an all-nighter and be all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed by morning. And I'm sure many of us can tell from experience (at least, I can) that a number of consecutive catnaps is not the same as uninterrupted sleep. Well, the same goes for resting: a series of short rests is not the same as one long rest. Hence the CON check.

* during which you do whatever it is that your character needs: 6h sleep + 2h relaxing, 4h trance, whatever

build works off the XGE warlock power that says you never need to sleep. It is silly to think this power does literally nothing, you dont need a power to pull an all-nighter with penalties. It is clear the point of the option is that you can function with no sleep. The text even says you can hang out and read or keep watch with no issues.

[Maelynn]

build works off the XGE warlock power that says you never need to sleep. It is silly to think this power does literally nothing, you dont need a power to pull an all-nighter with penalties. It is clear the point of the option is that you can function with no sleep. The text even says you can hang out and read or keep watch with no issues.

Function with no sleep, sure. Function with no long rest, only if you succeed the CON check.

The point of the option is clear to me, hence the specification added by the asterisk: you can do whatever it is your character needs during a long rest, and this 'whatever' might entail reading, or keeping watch, or knitting for all I care. I simply refuse to acknowledge it as a way to cheat out of a long rest without incurring a penalty.

In short: do whatever feels good for you during your downtime, but skipping a long rest in a 24h-period causes a CON check for exhaustion at dawn.

[EvilAnagram]

This thread ended five months ago. Let it rest in peace.

[OvisCaedo]

As strange as it is, by RAW not needing to sleep does nothing to free you from the obligation to long rest. Despite the flavor text of the rule talking about sleep deprivation earlier, and long rests NOT being necessary, the only mechanical penalty is for skipping long rests, not for skipping sleep in general. Crawford seems to have even claimed that this is intended.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...68519385456641

To me, this seems like an extremely silly bit of rules writing. At the same time... It would be hard to get any sillier than the loopholes and oversights that make up coffeelocking itself.

edit: but also why did this thread come back?

[Kyrinthic]

This thread ended five months ago. Let it rest in peace.

I didnt notice the guy above me necroed it. sorry about that.

[Gaiden.17]

I would have ssssooooooooo much fun with a player that tried to do this in my game. You see, I’m a physician and happen to know a little bit about sleep deprivation (both from personal experience and professional knowledge). Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are not exactly the same thing. Sleep deprivation after a point can (and will) have hallucinating (not just delusional) effects and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. There is such a thing as sleep debt and it can have profound physiologic consequences. The fun that could be had 😂😈.

[Capac Amaru]

I would have ssssooooooooo much fun with a player that tried to do this in my game. You see, I’m a physician and happen to know a little bit about sleep deprivation (both from personal experience and professional knowledge). Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are not exactly the same thing. Sleep deprivation after a point can (and will) have hallucinating (not just delusional) effects and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. There is such a thing as sleep debt and it can have profound physiologic consequences. The fun that could be had 😂😈.

That, and the continual flow of magic could have all kinds of interesting consequences.

[JackPhoenix]

Like raising dead threads?

[Citan]

I would have ssssooooooooo much fun with a player that tried to do this in my game. You see, I’m a physician and happen to know a little bit about sleep deprivation (both from personal experience and professional knowledge). Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are not exactly the same thing. Sleep deprivation after a point can (and will) have hallucinating (not just delusional) effects and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. There is such a thing as sleep debt and it can have profound physiologic consequences. The fun that could be had 😂😈.

To add insult to injury, you could mix it up with the idea it's actually something related to either the Patron being infuriated at its "pawn" and manifesting it in such a way, or that because he bound a Patron pact to try and enhance his natural magic both have started to conflict with each other instead of fusing...
In short, in whatever way you fancy, plant doubt in him as to whether those hallucinations are physiological, "magical" or "supernatural". ^^