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    Default Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    I had this idea in my head for a minute, but have yet to fully watch through Naruto (though osmosis lets me know what happens; I'm watching for... Lets call it "enrichment.")

    Basically, take Rock Lee and throw him at every arc villain, boss rush style.

    Conditions:
    Rock Lee is drunk, and will not "snap out of it" when hit.
    He has also shed his weights.
    He is free to open at any Chakra Gates he learned to open at the time the villain showed up in chronology, with a minimum of gate 3 Pre-Shippuden, and gate 5 Shippuden.
    He is magically healed to 100% before each fight.

    Can anyone stop him before he gets to Itachi? Can even Itachi stop him? Madara? Kaguya? Or does he just run a train over the entire series?

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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    I had this idea in my head for a minute, but have yet to fully watch through Naruto (though osmosis lets me know what happens; I'm watching for... Lets call it "enrichment.")

    Basically, take Rock Lee and throw him at every arc villain, boss rush style.

    Conditions:
    Rock Lee is drunk, and will not "snap out of it" when hit.
    He has also shed his weights.
    He is free to open at any Chakra Gates he learned to open at the time the villain showed up in chronology, with a minimum of gate 3 Pre-Shippuden, and gate 5 Shippuden.
    He is magically healed to 100% before each fight.

    Can anyone stop him before he gets to Itachi? Can even Itachi stop him? Madara? Kaguya? Or does he just run a train over the entire series?
    You're working at cross-purposes sadly.

    A drunk Rock Lee is unpredictable but is not as dangerous as when he is capable of opening the Gates. Case and point, we see how far Lee gets pre-Shippuden and its to Kimmimaro. Then he dies, or rather he would have if not for Gaara.

    Shippuden...do we know how many gates Lee can open at that point? In any case, he again meets a hard stop once he gets to pretty much any member of the Akatsuki but especially Itachi, Sasori, Pain, Hidan, Deidara, and Konan.

    He'll never get to the point he even sees Madara or Kaguya.
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    He'll never get to the point he even sees Madara or Kaguya.
    Rock Lee is given only a single feat in shippuden, and thus we can't really judge it for it lacks context, lee got a power boost from naruto, and also the villain had a form of invincibility so what is the point of dodging / blocking.





    But yeah Lee can see Madara, but he will not be able to see Madara after a couple more transformations (this is a shounen afterall) with Madara becoming flesh again and then regaining a rinnegan and thus using limbo, let alone two eye Madara, three eye madara, or Kaguya.
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Lets see, lets go down the list first:

    1st Arc Villain, Land of Waves: Zabuza/Haku

    2nd Arc Villain, Chuunin Exams: Gaara

    3rd Arc Villain, Tsunade Arc: Kabuto

    4th Arc Villain, Sasuke Retrieval Arc: Sasuke

    5th Arc Villain, Gaara Rescue Arc: Deidara and Sasori

    6th Arc Villain, Tenchi Bridge Recon Arc: Orochimaru

    7th Arc Villain, Akatsuki Suppression Mission: Hidan and Kakuzu

    8th Arc Villain, Itachi Pursuit Mission: Itachi

    9th Arc Villain, Pain's Assault Arc: Pain

    10th Arc Villain, Five Kage Summit: Danzo

    11th Arc Villain, Fourth Shinobi War: Uuuuumm......which one? Obito, Super-Kabuto or the actual Madara Uchiha?

    12th Arc Villain: Kaguya Otsutsuki

    So yeah, thats like sixteen or seventeen villains over twelve arcs to fight. and unfortunately for Rock Lee........we already have a canon example of him losing against the 2nd guy on the list and not even when his foe is in Tailed Beast Mode, when Lee is going all out. that does not bode well for him. the 4th guy, is Sasuke, who can hax eyes to predict and copy his every move. but we're getting ahead of ourselves.

    can he defeat Zabuza and/or Haku? given that Zabuza's big sword gives him greater reach, his mist jutsu makes him hard to find, and Haku's mirror jutsu is pretty much a hard counter to taijutsu in general with her BEING FAST AS LIGHT, and pretty much kicked Naruto and Sasuke's behinds when they kept trying to rush her. all of Rock Lee's advantages are countered here. thats just the first people he is supposed to face. it only gets crazier from there.
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Sasuke could track and predict Haku immediately upon awakening his Sharingan, and he is able to intercept his movement with a fireball.

    By the Chunin exam arc, Sasuke's Sharingan can track and predict Lee, but he can't physically react in time to do anything about it except eat Lee's foot. And Lee was wearing his weights at the time. That makes base Lee faster than Haku. Without the weights, even if the ice mirrors went up, Lee just dodges until Haku runs out of chakra, then stomps him.

    Also if Lee didn't "snap out" of his drunken state when he got hit, he'd be a match to Kimimaro, I'd even say an advantage. With no weights? And 3 gates? And not an Invalid just released from the hospital? Kimimaro gets blown back so hard it isn't even funny.

    The real queation is, could Gaara's sand keep up with Drunk Lee?
    Last edited by John Cribati; 2017-11-25 at 12:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    If Lee is restricted to what his powers were contemporary to each villain, he likely could defeat Haku, maybe could defeat Haku and Zabuza working together, and then loses to Gaara.

    Even if allowed to open all eight gates, Lee loses to Madara at latest, based on Mighty Guy trying the same.
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    These are the important questions:
    How well does he know each opponent's abilities?
    Will he have morals off and go straight for the kill?
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    If Lee is restricted to what his powers were contemporary to each villain, he likely could defeat Haku, maybe could defeat Haku and Zabuza working together, and then loses to Gaara.

    Even if allowed to open all eight gates, Lee loses to Madara at latest, based on Mighty Guy trying the same.
    This. I have a hard time imagining Lee getting past Madara if his exponentially better version, who's also really trained to fight a Sharingan user, just got beaten, and implied to just got played, by Madara.

    He'd taijutsu those freaking mirrors, and outblitz Haku. Is the speed of light mirror thing from datababooks, or just the characters' description? He'd speedblitz Zabuza before the latter makes his first hand-sign for a jutsu.

    As for Gaara, IIRC only reason why initial lotus failed was because he was deceived with a bunshin when he blinked in pain due to earlier damaged sustained when he was fighting with weights. Granted, if Gaara also went all out he'll still lose. But there's that detail.

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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    These are the important questions:
    How well does he know each opponent's abilities?
    Will he have morals off and go straight for the kill?
    I'd guess he goes in mostly blind, but he knows (at least subconsciously, given he's drunk off his ads) he has to take his opponent out by any means necessary.

    Now, he had trouble with Gaara in canon, but I'm sure if he started that same scenario without his weights and at gate 3, the sand wouldn't be able to keep up with from the start, and it becomes a question of "can he wear down Gaara before self-injury via chakra gates?" Or maybe "does drunk Lee confuse the sand?"

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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Zabuza is one of the elite of mist. He is a highly skilled jounin able to fight on par with kakashi, you know, the guy who is lees teachers rival and equally matched? I think he could beat haku, especially drunk and no weights. I think it might depend on if zabuza can react in time. I mean, noone expects that freak to actually be dangerous after all, so its POSSIBLE he gets that shock opening and exploits it to death, but I dont think so.

    He dies versus garra. Sorry, but unless you handicap the fight by making lee go all out from the first exchange but garra isnt, then all out garra at that time utterly obliterates lee and the entire neighborhood they are fighting in because he is going full biiju. Full biiju was able to out muscle the toad boss and blinding speed is nice and all, but he cant cover entire acres of sand without getting snagged. This isnt dodging pinpoint attacks, this is dodging wide scale aoe attacks.

    Kabuto he might actually beat. The sheer strength and speed he has, mixed with his unpredictable drunken boxing style means fighting him in hand to hand is a REALLY BAD IDEA!!! And kabuto really doesnt have anything but medical taijutsu to fight with. Its possible lee gets hurt but I think kabuto gets burst like a ripe melon.

    Sasuke? Eeeeeh, hard to say. When they met up pre garra, sasuke got spanked like the unruly rookie he is. But this sasuke has had an extra month of training to speed up and use his eyes better, plus he gets those boosts from the seal AND his third tomoe. He never used genjutsu in his naruto fight afaik so that wont be a factor. The problem will be hitting lee. He doesnt really have many aoe style attacks that lee couldnt easily dodge, and even with extra training im sure lee without weights is way WAY faster. I give the edge to lee here

    Deidara he dies. Lee has no reasonable way to catch an opponent who likes to stay in the air as much as possible. Sasori? He dies. Dude has too many wide scale poison attacks so its doubtful he could get through all the puppet bodies before getting murdered.

    Orochimaru? Thats tricky because he isnt just really deadly in battle, he is also super sneaky and hard to pin down. MAYBE the speed boost will let him catch the snake sanin off guard, but he has so many self rezz techniques and escape tactics the best he might get is orochimaru retreating. And even then im very sure he is aware of the gates and their limits. He likely retreats, waits 5 minutes, then ganks lee when he collapses exhausted.

    He has no way to kill hidan. None. All hidan has to do is get whupped all over the battlefield till lee collapses from tearing himself apart with the gates. Kakuzu is another matter potentially. The fact that you basically have to kill him 5 times, he has plenty of aoe attacks, is super durable, and has experience coming from being a ninja since the sandaime was a genin means I doubt very much he would win. It took a group effort and a new super jutsu thats disturbingly powerful for the good guys to win.

    Itachi AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no

    Pain AHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no

    Danzo Dude fights like a moron, lets himself be killed like he isnt even aware his no sell technique has limits, and in general sucked in his sasuke fight. That said, he has enough extra lives to probably outlast lee. Only problem might be if lee was fast enough to kill danzo before he could activate the technique.

    Nope

    Nope

    Yeah I like lee, but the dude just isnt broken enough to hang with the heavy hitters of the setting.
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post

    Yeah I like lee, but the dude just isnt broken enough to hang with the heavy hitters of the setting.
    Exactly. He is basically a straight forward wuxia character in a setting of engineers all trying to gather as much hax abilities as they can to create machines of unstoppable death. Might Guy despite his big showing against Madara, isn't really much better. its not that Lee isn't a powerful fighter, its that he somehow expects to beat people using the closest thing shinobi have to honorable combat, while his opposition are all war vets and living superweapons whose entire worldviews have been shaped around their need to kill the enemy as fast as possible using any and all methods they have on hand.

    It really says something that Lee has less chance against Hidan than freaking SHIKAMARU. Mr. Lazy Genius in comparison was able to defeat the guy that would probably kill Lee easily. whats worse is that if Shikamaru and Lee were to fight, Shikamaru would probably have a plan ready to go where he catches Lee in his jutsu, then just kills Lee with Lee's own body.

    like if Lee grew up in DBZ or One Piece, he'd be fine. those settings are all about punchy stuff. in Narutoverse, he is simply wrong genre savvy
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Exactly. He is basically a straight forward wuxia character in a setting of engineers all trying to gather as much hax abilities as they can to create machines of unstoppable death. Might Guy despite his big showing against Madara, isn't really much better. its not that Lee isn't a powerful fighter, its that he somehow expects to beat people using the closest thing shinobi have to honorable combat, while his opposition are all war vets and living superweapons whose entire worldviews have been shaped around their need to kill the enemy as fast as possible using any and all methods they have on hand.

    It really says something that Lee has less chance against Hidan than freaking SHIKAMARU. Mr. Lazy Genius in comparison was able to defeat the guy that would probably kill Lee easily. whats worse is that if Shikamaru and Lee were to fight, Shikamaru would probably have a plan ready to go where he catches Lee in his jutsu, then just kills Lee with Lee's own body.

    like if Lee grew up in DBZ or One Piece, he'd be fine. those settings are all about punchy stuff. in Narutoverse, he is simply wrong genre savvy
    Yeah, I love Lee, he's a great character that I wish got a fair amount more screen time, but he's just not the right person for any of the villains encountered in Naruto.

    Now, if we were to change the stipulations of the OP, and make it so Lee constantly had 7 gates open, AND they didn't wear off(or at least, had an extended duration of say....an hour), that might change some things. 7 gates let's him fight on par with just about everyone except the end-game guys(Madara, Pein, Itachi). I'm not sure if even Hidan could survive being bounced around like a rag doll for an hour, not at those speeds and that heavy of hits.

    But 5 gates, and normal restrictions? Not a chance.

    Edit: Ooooh, or it could be Third Fang's version of Lee. Constantly has 1 gate open, suffers no ill effects from it, can open other gates with minimal nasty side-effects, and has the Silent Killing technique down probably better than Zabuza does. That Lee, with the restrictions in place(only 5 gates, normal wear and tear), in Drunken Fist mode, could probably wipe out all the nasties all the way up to the big guys(Once again, Madara/Pein/Itachi).
    Last edited by Starwulf; 2017-11-25 at 07:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    As much as I like Lee, I have to agree.

    Naruto simply has too many characters where "physical superiority times 5" doesn`t lead to victory. Actually pre pain Arc that was one of the things I loved about the series. Everything had a kind of counter somewhere.


    Now, where could one read the abovementioned Third Fang version (I am assuming it is a fanfic of some kind)?
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    As much as I like Lee, I have to agree.

    Naruto simply has too many characters where "physical superiority times 5" doesn`t lead to victory. Actually pre pain Arc that was one of the things I loved about the series. Everything had a kind of counter somewhere.


    Now, where could one read the abovementioned Third Fang version (I am assuming it is a fanfic of some kind)?
    Right here Yet again, with a little extra help Its a long book and the sequel is working its way up there as well, but its a good one. If I had to categorize it, its like the author sat down, thought to himself,. "With the skills they have now, what would be the coolest way to make them better?" Then wrote an entire story around it. Everyone gets their crowning moments of awesome eventually. Well in truth its primarily the konoha rookies and their friends but even the senseis get a few boosts here and there. *EDIT* Now too be fair, lee's moment is pretty late in the first book, but even before then from time to time you will see signs of him improving and becoming dangerous.
    Last edited by Traab; 2017-11-26 at 09:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Thanks.

    I now seem to dimly remember having read a few chapters back before 2010, finished now, nice.


    As for the OP: I think a way to get Lee (or any other similarly inclined Melee Monster) closer to the Olympus of Power would be giving them the 2nd Hokages Shunshin.
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    The other thing is, it's a show about teams. Naruto is going to solo everything because he's his own team, but Rock Lee isn't the guy who you send toe-to-toe with dumb hax enemies. He's the guy who punches the enemy unconscious after his teammates have negated their dumb hax with their own hax. You need a guy like that on your team, or else you just get stalemates.

    (In fact, Lee's team kind of suffers from not really having a dumb hax member of its own - they've got one ninja for punching, one ninja for detecting problems, and one ninja for... punching. Tenten and Lee kind of overlap their primary strategies, those being "remove enemy from battlefield through extreme violence". If Lee and Neji had Ino as their third, say, their team would be devastating.)

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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    Basically, take Rock Lee and throw him at every arc villain, boss rush style.
    In most countries that is considered cruel and unusual punishment to put someone through that much agonizing persecution.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    Also if Lee didn't "snap out" of his drunken state when he got hit, he'd be a match to Kimimaro, I'd even say an advantage.
    Kimimaro beat Lee without even having to use his transformation states and later on we learn the cursed seal is actually a forced sage mode based on Jugo's passive natural energy absorption.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    but I'm sure if he started that same scenario without his weights and at gate 3,
    I'm curious, does Gaara get to start out in tailed beast form too or did you just admit Lee needs to blindside opponents at full power to have any chance of success?
    Last edited by Mato; 2017-12-09 at 12:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starwulf View Post

    Edit: Ooooh, or it could be Third Fang's version of Lee. Constantly has 1 gate open, suffers no ill effects from it, can open other gates with minimal nasty side-effects, and has the Silent Killing technique down probably better than Zabuza does. That Lee, with the restrictions in place(only 5 gates, normal wear and tear), in Drunken Fist mode, could probably wipe out all the nasties all the way up to the big guys(Once again, Madara/Pein/Itachi).
    Hidan is the one with the first gate perma open. Lee is just able to open the gates safer than a normal person would, with less after effects, to the point where its possible he MIGHT survive opening the 8th gate. Now third fang lee, especially as he was in his hidan fight? My vote switches back in a number of ways. He could take canon zabuza at that stage easy. He is just way too fast, way too strong, and is really really good at silent killing which negates zabuzas biggest advantage. Sasuke is dead freaking meat. Garra MIGHT be dead meat, he does carry blades around that convert chakra into various elements, so he could likely slice right through his sand armor and do it so fast he doesnt even know he was killed. I would even give him decent odds against kakuzu. It depends on how adaptable and quick kakuzu would be with his aoe attacks. Basically blanketing the area around him till lee gets tagged. And if he can do it before lee takes out all his hearts. (Or decapitates him. Im honestly unsure what happens then)

    If we ignore funky presence issues, I dont think even this lee could defeat pein by himself. Not unless lee gets advance knowledge of how his bodies work. Itachi is a maybe. Lee has some tools that could really help. His smoke bombs to do his silent killing and the fact he can fight with his eyes closed and likely knows to do that against him, means it would be a really really tough fight for itachi. I dont THINK he could break through susanoo for example. End game bad guys? No way. Tobito for example at his best could only be hurt by sage chakra. So unless he has a blade that can channel that stuff, he is useless. And madera was able to take a full force 8 gates final strike attack and survive. His regeneration is absurd.
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Naruto simply has too many characters where "physical superiority times 5" doesn`t lead to victory. *snip*
    This comment got me thinking a little. What level of physical superiority would you need to be unstoppable in the Naruto-verse?

    Let's skip straight to the big guns. Assuming he had a legitimate grievance with them- i.e. they, personally, or somebody whom they are protecting, has done him wrong- is there anything in the ninja world that could bring a long-term halt to Worldbreaker Hulk?

    Genjutsu would stop him temporarily, most likely, but there are a handful of factors that mean that it wouldn't work long-term, at least as far as I understand it. First off, and most importantly, is that genjutsu must be maintained- no-one has an infinite supply of chakra, and even if someond did, I doubt they would want to spend the entirety of their life imprisoning the Hulk. Secondly, the Hulk has inherent resistance to mind-control, to the point that even Professor Xavier, traditionally the strongest telepath on Earth, has commented on it; typically, the Hulk will shake off mind-controlling effects far faster than the attempting controller expects, usually to their considerable detriment Finally, and possibly irrelevantly, the Hulk is a gamma furnace. Since the traditional Narutoverse way of shaking off a genjutsu consists of cycling your chakra rapidly to disrupt it, it's possible (albeit not a certainty) that the Hulk's internal energies would break the genjutsu even without his mental resistance coming into play.

    If the Hulk slipped and gave in to his impulse to yell about being the strongest one there is and getting stronger as he gets angrier (which Worldbreaker Hulk didn't actually seem prone to doing, but it's so much a part of Savage Hulk's schtick that it might slip out, who knows), the ninja might deduce that they needed to calm him down, but unless there is a specific genjutsu with which I am unfamiliar that shows the target's greatest desire or something to that effect, rather than what the illusion-caster directs, it's very unlikely that the ninja would hit on to the fairly speciific things needed to revert the Hulk back to Banner.

    So... is there anything that could stop a rightfully pissed-off Hulk in the Narutoverse?

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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    Kimimaro beat Lee without even having to use his transformation states and later on we learn the cursed seal is actually a forced sage mode based on Jugo's passive natural energy absorption.
    Lee was barely out of the hospital and wearing his weights, and Kimimaro couldn't touch Lee while he was only drunk, and only managed to knock him back into sobriety with porcupine defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    I'm curious, does Gaara get to start out in tailed beast form too or did you just admit Lee needs to blindside opponents at full power to have any chance of success?
    Yes actually. Given that he blindsided Gaara by dropping his weights, and blindsided Kimimaro by accidentally getting drunk. And those happened at or near the middle of those fights. Also, is it really "blindsiding" if it happens at the start of the fight?

    Also are we pretending "blindside the other guy with a ridiculous display of power" isn't how 90-100% of big Shonen fights are won in the first place?
    Last edited by John Cribati; 2017-12-09 at 05:15 PM.

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  20. - Top - End - #20
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    Lee was barely out of the hospital and wearing his weights, and Kimimaro couldn't touch Lee while he was only drunk, and only managed to knock him back into sobriety with porcupine defense.



    Yes actually. Given that he blindsided Gaara by dropping his weights, and blindsided Kimimaro by accidentally getting drunk. And those happened at or near the middle of those fights. Also, is it really "blindsiding" if it happens at the start of the fight?

    Also are we pretending "blindside the other guy with a ridiculous display of power" isn't how 90-100% of big Shonen fights are won in the first place?
    Only after a lengthy battle where both sides ramp up to their current best then one side or the other goes, "Mwahaha I have decided to stop holding back" (In the case of antagonist) or "I cant give up now, for the heart of the cards, friendship is magic gum gum new attack!" for the protags. Because lets face it, most of the time you only get the fight being over before it starts under VERY specific circumstances. Generally as a way to show the good guy how much further he has to go as he is casually ganked by the enemy. Or to show off the new power up of the hero. To use bleach as an example, when rukias brother came to the living world to bring her back and that whole "you're slow, even when you're falling" line where ichigo got slaughtered so fast he didnt even realize it happened. Then when he showed up at the execution platform and beat up three lieutenants using their released swords powers bare freaking handed in about 3 seconds. Both were scenes of blindsiding but they tend to be relatively rare.
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  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Default Re: Rock Lee vs. Every major Naruto Villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    Lee was barely out of the hospital and wearing his weights, and Kimimaro couldn't touch Lee while he was only drunk, and only managed to knock him back into sobriety with porcupine defense.
    And Kimimaro was so close to death he died in the middle of winning the fight against the guy that already defeated Lee earlier in the series.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    Yes actually. Given that he blindsided Gaara by dropping his weights, and blindsided Kimimaro by accidentally getting drunk.
    Wait, so you're arguing Lee did buff up and did blindside his opponents? Um, spoiler alert? Lee almost died anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    Also are we pretending "blindside the other guy with a ridiculous display of power" isn't how 90-100% of big Shonen fights are won in the first place?
    I was starting to think you were wearing a green jump suit but I guess I should say hi, welcome to shonen media. When you finish Naruto you should look into the first major arc of Bleach and many people also loved One Piece. For years they dominated the top three slots of Jump and are worth looking into.

    Afterwards the users here can suggest all kinds of favorites if you'd like to see more.

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