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2017-12-30, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
If I had been aware of it, I wouldn't have made that typo.
So another of life's mysteries.
Yay, actually an in-gameplay question!
I see it more as a gamble. You get some nice extra unique units, but sometimes you'll lose the starspawn doing it. Better to do it with a non-cap-only-mage.
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2017-12-30, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
Ultimately, there are two primary considerations to keep in mind when considering Void Gate summoning:
1) What is the relative risk/reward of the action? In general, since you will continuously recruit mages throughout the game, the importance of 1 mage-turn is greatest early. Further, many of the greatest results are notably enhanced with Gift of Reason, which is not a particularly early spell. As a result, your potential loss diminishes, and the reward increases, as the years advance. At some point, you will start void gate summoning.
2) How strong is your current position? If you are wildly behind, you should be summoning every turn, since you will lose unless something breaks favorably, and void gate gives you the chance for favorable breaks. If you are slightly behind, or at parity, summoning is comparatively risky, because return is not certain. Unsuccessful summoning from parity can leave you at a deficit, if the value of a mage-turn is high enough.
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2017-12-30, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
OK we'll go ahead and firm lock in that Jotunheim pick for us.
Artist of my Avatar: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Rakrakrak-272771299ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!
I use the same name in every game I ever play or forum I join (except the pretender on PSN that forced me to be RealOlinser). If you see an Olinser in a game or on a website, there's a high chance it's me, feel free to shoot me a message.
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2017-12-31, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
We're going to take Ys and Agartha
EDIT for unrelated questions:
Is there any negative consequence for suiciding a group of mercenaries? Other than no longer having the mercenaries, of course.Last edited by Nadevoc; 2017-12-31 at 03:57 AM.
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2017-12-31, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
In my experience (I've taught a fair few people to play) it really helps to have someone there to see the specifics. A lot of that is less on the strategy side and more on the basics of how you get the UI to work and what all of the jargon even means, but there's strategy as well.
Not even a little. It's sometimes worth it to hire mercenaries just to kill them off, particularly mages which grant path access to other players. If I have to hire an N2 or D2 mage to keep the thistle mace and skull staff out of an opponent with N1 or D1 mage's hands (and that can be basically anyone given the state of indie mages, except for nations with actual N/D access) I'm totally willing to hire them and explode them on some indies. If there's a W2N1 mage that can quickly made a water bracelet then summon a Naiad, or a W2D1 mage that can quickly make a water bracelet and robe of the sea then summon a Kokthyad, well, those also have business being splatted across some barbarians or something. Even a W2 mage can path up all by their lonesome given enough gems (water bracelet, sea king's court, robe of the sea, transfer robe and bracelet to sea king, queen of the sea), and that's without getting into the sort of shenanigans death and nature magic in particular have once the research tree has firmed up a bit.
Learning the standard strategies for pathing up is useful, but when it comes to mercenary mages I generally work on the assumption that there's something that can be pulled even if I don't necessarily remember it. At minimum there's the potential for two manual site searches or three site search spells, some quick summons, etc. I'd rather opponents stick within their lane when it comes to magic diversity, and if I have to buy a mage and get them killed on purpose, well, that's the downside. Plus I can probably get some mileage out of them before sending them to die.
Sticking a slave collar on them would also work, but that's a borderline exploit that is commonly banned.
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2017-12-31, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Location
- Midwest, not Middle East
- Gender
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
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2017-12-31, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
Yay, actually an in-gameplay question!
I see it more as a gamble. You get some nice extra unique units, but sometimes you'll lose the starspawn doing it. Better to do it with a non-cap-only-mage.
But they litterally fail at defending their life when the summoning fails. And experience also teaches me that no, Illithids are not a good bodyguard. They either get trambled by a mindless ooze, or spend 10 rounds paralyzing something immobile. Then runs away.
Current experiment on making the summoner survive is using a Mind lord with water 3 and some gems, hoping it will summon a elemental. And with some mindless thrall bodyguards.
If that fails my backup plans is either gearing a Illithid Lord up for close combat. Or getting a Mindlord with death magic. And then giving him a Wight bodyguard.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-12-31, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
The standard used to be the returning spell, but that doesn't seem to work anymore judging by the description (doesn't work on other planes). Even if it does the loss of turn 1 defensive casting hurts.
In any case, illithids are decent bodyguards if you patch the holes in their defenses. The paralysis is great, you just need something that can't be trampled and can beat something up. Size six, good offenses, preferably magic weapons given the amount of ethereal garbage that can come through. Some will still kill it, but it's a better option.
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2017-12-31, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
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2017-12-31, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
In any case, illithids are decent bodyguards if you patch the holes in their defenses. The paralysis is great, you just need something that can't be trampled and can beat something up. Size six, good offenses, preferably magic weapons given the amount of ethereal garbage that can come through. Some will still kill it, but it's a better option.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-12-31, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
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2017-12-31, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
OK we'll go ahead and take Caelum as our second choice.
Artist of my Avatar: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Rakrakrak-272771299ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!
I use the same name in every game I ever play or forum I join (except the pretender on PSN that forced me to be RealOlinser). If you see an Olinser in a game or on a website, there's a high chance it's me, feel free to shoot me a message.
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2017-12-31, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
Assuming that I don't have the draft order off, we'll be taking Pythium for nation 2.
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2017-12-31, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
And hellbug and I will take Abysia.
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2017-12-31, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Here and There
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
Any way we could get the teams/picks in the OP? Also, I think I mentioned this before, but I didn't get a response: I'm unsure of my availability on the 2nd, but I'm fine as of the third. Is it possible to delay by a day?
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2017-12-31, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
I can't do anything about the OP, but if I'm not mistaken teams and picks are currently:
Glimbur/Olinser: Caelum and Jotunheim
Vitruviansquid/Sen isSaqqara: Vanheim and ???
Thrantar/Hellbug: Pangaea and Abysia
Ionbound/Knaight: Marignon and Pythium
Nadevoc/deuterio12: Ys and AgarthaLast edited by Aeson; 2017-12-31 at 02:22 PM.
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2017-12-31, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
I'd skip straight to the crusher (although it's not like you can't do a combined wight-illithid-crusher team). Those wights are going to get trampled.
There's also not much of a reason to have more than one crusher.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-12-31, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
I'll need to reference the new bodyguard mechanics then (like I said, it's Dom 3 that I actually know well). Still, if the crusher doesn't work there's still various larger creatures available. There's also other mindless creatures, some of which might be surprisingly useful in this very specific niche (clockwork horrors seem uniquely well suited to this).
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2017-12-31, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
I posted this earlier but their official manual is here (maybe we could put it in first post?) - http://www.illwinter.com/dom5/dom5manual.pdf - if you want to read up on basic mechanics in Dom 5.
Last edited by Olinser; 2017-12-31 at 03:48 PM.
Artist of my Avatar: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Rakrakrak-272771299ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!
I use the same name in every game I ever play or forum I join (except the pretender on PSN that forced me to be RealOlinser). If you see an Olinser in a game or on a website, there's a high chance it's me, feel free to shoot me a message.
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2017-12-31, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- Here and There
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
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2017-12-31, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
Alright, nation picks are finalized!
Pick Order Players Nations 1 Vitruviansquid +Sen isSaqqara Vanheim & Ulm 2 Thrantar-hellbug Pangaea & Abysia 3 Ionbound+Knaight Marignon & Pythium 4 Glimbur +Olinser Jotunheim & Caelum 5 Nadevoc+deuterio12 Agartha & Ys
Sounds like let's start the game on the 3rd. Since that's a Tuesday, it's probably unlikely that we'll be able to get everyone on at the same time to knock out the first few turns quickly.
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2017-12-31, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
If you have the gems, research, and mages for it, you might consider forging items which summon useful things at the start of a battle, e.g. a Handful of Acorns (N1, Const-2, summons three Vine Men at the start of the battle) or a Bottle of Living Water (W2, Const-6, summons a size-5 Water Elemental at the start of the battle). If you can break into Blood, Lifelong Protection (B2, Const-4, automatically summons two imps each turn) can be pretty decent at keeping assassins busy even if the imps it summons cannot kill the assassin, though it's tainted (in this case, 5% chance of gaining a horror mark each turn) and so any commander bearing one will eventually start to accumulate horror marks, which can lead to random Horrors attacking the mage.
If the mage you're using for the summoning is D2 or can be made to be D2 at a reasonable cost - say, by giving him a Skull Staff (D2, Const-4, +1D) - then you can also have the mage cast Twiceborn (D2, Ench-4, 10 Death gems), which will allow him to return from death once as a Wight Mage. You'll lose any items the mage was carrying and you'll lose any bodyguards who showed up for the fight in which he died, but you'll get to keep the mage, and there's a possibility that he'll gain +1D as a result of the experience. Unfortunately, the mage will keep any afflictions that they picked up in life - including any resulting from their death - as well as the Cursed status and any horror marks they may have gained.
If you can forge it, the Elixir of Life (F2N2, Const-6) might also help your mage survive summoning things from the Void. It's a bit of an awkward item for R'lyeh to forge, though.
Generally speaking, though, I would recommend against investing significant resources into protecting whichever mage you're using to summon things through the Void Gate. You're essentially using them as bait for very powerful monsters which can relatively easily eat most mages, and while R'lyeh's mages are less likely to be attacked than other nations' mages while attempting to attract monsters, the odds are still pretty high that they'll be attacked - assuming the Dom5 void summoning mechanics are the same as the Dom4 void summoning mechanics, my understanding is that most of the creatures which your mage can attract through the Void Gate or the Strange House in the Mist will attack the mage 20% of the time if the mage belongs to R'lyeh or 80% of the time if the mage belongs to some other nation, Dwellers in the Deep will attack R'lyeh mages who call them 40% of the time and non-R'lyeh mages always, and Horrors will always attack any mage unfortunate enough to draw their attention. Your void summoner is going to get attacked, and even if you give him an incredible array of protections he's eventually going to be killed by something he summons, or in the case of tainted protective items by something summoned by his defenses.
That leaves us with the final pick, right? Let's see, I had wanted Caelum, but in a pinch I'll go with... Ulm. It was that or Vanarus, and I'm uncertain how well two such similar nations would play out.
A third thing which you might want to consider but which isn't usually going to be that important until later in the game is what each nation's mages can offer to the team, primarily in terms of item-forging and to some degree in terms of rituals. Vanheim's capital-only Dwarven Smiths have most of the same magic paths as Ulm's Master/Priest Smiths (E2+1.1FAED for the Dwarven Smiths, E2F1H1 for the Priest Smiths, and E2F1+0.2FAES for the Master Smiths)*, and Ulm doesn't have any other magic to offer. Ulm's Master and Priest Smiths can forge items a bit more cheaply due to their forge bonus ability (-2 gems to cost of any items), but Dwarven Smiths can forge higher-level items due to their master smith ability (+1 effective path level for item-forging purposes) and low-level magic items are fairly cheap anyways (not, mind you, that the ability to get Owl Quills and Lightless Lanterns for one gem or Fire Brands and Shields of Gleaming Gold for 6 is nothing).
I wouldn't say that Ulm and Vanheim are completely incompatible, but they're also not extremely compatible.
*F = Fire, A = Air, W = Water, E = Earth, S = aStral, N = Nature, D = Death, B = Blood. 1.1FAED is some combination of randoms which averages out to 1.1 levels chosen from Fire, Air, Earth, and Death; in the case of Dwarven Smiths, this is 1 100% FAED and one 10% FAED random, but there are some mages with a greater degree of variability in what they get - e.g. Arcoscephale's Mystics could be descibed as S1+2.5FWES, but they're really S1 + 1 FWES @ 100% + 1 F @ 50% + 1 W @ 50% + 1 E @ 50% and so could be anything from S1+1FWES to F1E1W1S1+1FWES.
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2017-12-31, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
Righto, so before I host on llamaserver just gonna review the basic settings we'll be using in case somebody disagrees with something:
Map: Pelywir (a classic, recommended for 10 players one of which is a water nation, which fits us just fine)
Era: MA
Independent strength: 5
Score graphs: Off
Hall of fame entries: 10
Research: Standard
Random starting research: Off
Global enchantment slots: 5
Special site frequency: Default
Money multiple: 100%
Resources multiple: 100%
Supplies multiplier: 100%
Random event frequency: Rare
Story events: None
Human AI level: Impossible
Renaming: On
Number of starting provinces: 1
Artifact forging limit: Limited to 1/turn.
Victory Conditions: 13 Throne points out of 21.
7 lv 1 thrones.
4 lv 2 thrones.
2 lv 3 thrones.
Disciples game.
Clustered starts: Yes (makes teammates start close to each other).
Mods: No.
If anybody does not agree with any of the above settings, let them speak now.Last edited by deuterio12; 2017-12-31 at 08:45 PM.
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2017-12-31, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
Just to be sure people know: Pelywir is a map with both North-South and East-West wrapping.
Victory Conditions: 11 Throne points out of 21.
7 lv 1 thrones.
4 lv 2 thrones.
2 lv 3 thrones.
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2017-12-31, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
Good point, increased to 13.
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2017-12-31, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
Is there a way to increase the accuracy of troop reports in enemy provinces? Every once in a while I hit one that has as much as twice as many troops as reported, and that... tends to go poorly for me
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2017-12-31, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
1. Have a scout in the province. Doesn't matter if it's one of the Scout commanders or 'just' a stealthy commander. Supposed to give better scouting reports than just owning a neighboring province.
2. Have a spy in the province. Not something all nations have easy access to, but some commanders have the Spy ability (looks like a grey triangle with an eye on it). Supposed to give more accurate scouting reports than standard scouts.
3. Scry on the province. Ritual spells that can do this include: Astral Window - S1, Evo-1, 2 pearls; Astral Projection - S2, Thaum-3, 3 pearls; Scrying Pool - W2, Thaum-2, 2 water gems; Eyes of the Condor - A2, Ench-2, 1 air gem, Nazca-only. Certain sites will allow certain kinds of mages to enter and scry as their turn action (e.g. E mages at the Halls of the Oracles). Commanders with Stone Spheres (E1S2, Const-4) can scry as with Astral Window at no cost other than their turn, the cost of forging the Sphere, and the risk of becoming horror-marked (Stone Spheres are tainted and have a 3% chance of horror marking the commander bearing them each turn). Probably some other ways to do so that I haven't listed. Supposed to give very accurate scouting reports; also reveals some other information, like what sites have been discovered in the province (including thrones - want to know if that throne you're considering pushing for is the Throne of Pestilence? Scry on it and you can find out). You can put more than the required number of gems into the rituals to make the effect linger for a few turns. Note that using Astral Projection to scry on a province where hostile Astral mages are likely to be present is not a great idea, and using a valuable mage to do it is a very bad idea.
4. Statistical analysis. The forces in a province will not be less than half or more than twice that which the standard scouting report from owning an adjacent province says are there, barring abilities like Glamor which prevent troops from appearing in the report at all or items like the Effigy of War or Cauldron of the Elven Halls which make the army seem larger or smaller than it actually is. If you take note of what forces are reported to be in the province (or in a given army, if you can track it and are reasonably certain that it isn't being reinforced) over several turns, you can refine the estimate given by the scouting reports and come up with reasonably accurate estimates of the strength of the province defense.
5. Be Arcoscephale (maybe only some ages; I don't recall right now) and have your dominion in the province - your dominion automatically scries the provinces in which it exists.
6. The Eyes of God global enchantment (Ench-5, S5, minimum 50 pearls) might help outside and will definitely help within your own dominion. Beware: Fate of Oedipus (Evo-4, F4, 75 fire gems) is a specific counterspell for The Eyes of God and will blind the caster of The Eyes of God in addition to dispelling the global enchantment.
7. Order something cheap (e.g. a Scout or other inexpensive commander, preferably without an army if you want to minimize risk) to attack the province, optionally setting the commander's orders to Retreat with no other orders and placing him as far back as possible. The post-"battle" report will give an accurate breakdown of the defending army.
8. Do something that can kill off some of the units in the defending army (cast a ritual spell like Fires from Afar, spread popkill dominion and wait a bit, etc). Won't impact relative accuracy, but the absolute error in the scouting reports will decrease as the independent army defending the province declines in size.Last edited by Aeson; 2017-12-31 at 10:58 PM.
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2018-01-01, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
If you have the gems, research, and mages for it, you might consider forging items which summon useful things at the start of a battle, e.g. a Handful of Acorns (N1, Const-2, summons three Vine Men at the start of the battle) or a Bottle of Living Water (W2, Const-6, summons a size-5 Water Elemental at the start of the battle). If you can break into Blood, Lifelong Protection (B2, Const-4, automatically summons two imps each turn) can be pretty decent at keeping assassins busy even if the imps it summons cannot kill the assassin, though it's tainted (in this case, 5% chance of gaining a horror mark each turn) and so any commander bearing one will eventually start to accumulate horror marks, which can lead to random Horrors attacking the mage.
If the mage you're using for the summoning is D2 or can be made to be D2 at a reasonable cost - say, by giving him a Skull Staff (D2, Const-4, +1D) - then you can also have the mage cast Twiceborn (D2, Ench-4, 10 Death gems), which will allow him to return from death once as a Wight Mage. You'll lose any items the mage was carrying and you'll lose any bodyguards who showed up for the fight in which he died, but you'll get to keep the mage, and there's a possibility that he'll gain +1D as a result of the experience. Unfortunately, the mage will keep any afflictions that they picked up in life - including any resulting from their death - as well as the Cursed status and any horror marks they may have gained.
If you can forge it, the Elixir of Life (F2N2, Const-6) might also help your mage survive summoning things from the Void. It's a bit of an awkward item for R'lyeh to forge, though.
Lifelong protection does not seem so constructive, Horrormarks seems like an eventual death sentence, and the entire goal of this is to get my summoner up on the really high skill level (8-9), where they summon the biggest void critters.
Twiceborn on the other hand sounds like a really, really useful thing, since i were about to use a summoner with death magic anyway for undead command. I guess it would give him a second life, as long as he can still ressurect while being lost in time and space.
At the moment that seems like the biggest concern. There is a 6% chance of that happening with each summoning, and it means the mage need to survive a fight without bodyguards. But if its the case then i can make the flask of life. I got a Rainbow pretender just for being able to check out all the new magic stuff that might have come
Generally speaking, though, I would recommend against investing significant resources into protecting whichever mage you're using to summon things through the Void Gate. You're essentially using them as bait for very powerful monsters which can relatively easily eat most mages, and while R'lyeh's mages are less likely to be attacked than other nations' mages while attempting to attract monsters, the odds are still pretty high that they'll be attacked - assuming the Dom5 void summoning mechanics are the same as the Dom4 void summoning mechanics, my understanding is that most of the creatures which your mage can attract through the Void Gate or the Strange House in the Mist will attack the mage 20% of the time if the mage belongs to R'lyeh or 80% of the time if the mage belongs to some other nation, Dwellers in the Deep will attack R'lyeh mages who call them 40% of the time and non-R'lyeh mages always, and Horrors will always attack any mage unfortunate enough to draw their attention. Your void summoner is going to get attacked, and even if you give him an incredible array of protections he's eventually going to be killed by something he summons, or in the case of tainted protective items by something summoned by his defenses.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-01-01, 08:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
For horror marks, "eventual" can be a pretty damn long time. I've had plenty of games where I spam lightless lanterns by the dozens midgame and barely see a single horror from them until the end.
And with lifelong protection in an elite mage, they may actually be able to take on some lesser horrors.Last edited by deuterio12; 2018-01-01 at 08:13 AM.
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2018-01-01, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
Re: Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you
Just remember that the Elixir of Life will be destroyed when it saves your mage's life.
At the same time though, if i dont invest in protecting them, then i wont be able to raise my summon skill, and reliably get some of the bigger things. I mean, 3 greather Otherness looks like something a normal faction would need to pay 25-30 gems to summon. ?
I'll also note that Void summoning, even with a highly-skilled summoner, is unreliable, unlike most ritual magic. It's free apart from the cost of the summoner and whatever protection you give to him, but it's not guaranteed to produce useful results, or even any results, every turn.
For horror marks, "eventual" can be a pretty damn long time. I've had plenty of games where I spam lightless lanterns by the dozens midgame and barely see a single horror from them until the end.
And with lifelong protection in an elite mage, they may actually be able to take on some lesser horrors.