OOTS #1106 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Do you know of a single, non-patriarchal society that forces women to marry? (Or, really, anyone)?

Yes, I do: the dwarven OotS society, which displays no inequality between the sexes and nevertheless has arranged marriages. "Arranged marriage" is not a necessary part of, nor exclusively of, a patriarchy

As to RL, the Hopi culture was (is) strongly matriarchal, and powerful families engaged in arranged marriages, therefore neatly demolishing your entire argument that one is a requirement for the other.

Arranged marriages are a common thread across all cultures and times as a way to control inter-family politics. Yes, patriarchies have arranged marriages, but so do all other historical societies that you care to look into.

GW

[Mandor]

Ah yes, V. Good to see that you remembered the lesson about Probability sneaking off to a back alley to service Drama as a copper piece harlot.

[schmunzel]

I'm a bit hazy since this was very early on in the comics. If this actually happened it definitely changes things a bit.

There was a 56 page thread that came to the conclusion that we are not particular sure about that :P


sch

[Ruck]

Obsolete Goons. Not a nice thing to say about Hilgya, but...sometimes Elan's like that.

Is that what Hired Goons become after they've been Fired Goons?

[zimmerwald1915]

Again: SoD talks about Evil gods defending the Dark One, and shows Loki defending the Dark One. At this point, I would say it is more likely that Loki is an Evil god who hates undead and therefore grants turning rather than rebuking. Lots of gods, even Evil ones, are known to have issues with undead and thus do not allow their clergy to command them - and I can easily imagine that Hel might have had a bit of a hand in ensuring she was the only undead deity of the northern pantheon.

Grey Wolf

The only deity of undeath in the pantheon? Perhaps. But not the only one that grants rebuking; the high priest of Fenrir, God of Monsters, bolsters undead here. This page is also useful for showing what rebuking looks like in this book 's art style.

[Fyraltari]

The only deity of undeath in the pantheon? Perhaps. But not the only one that grants rebuking; the high priest of Fenrir, God of Monsters, bolsters undead here. This page is also useful for showing what rebuking looks like in this book 's art style.

Well they are siblings after all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The only deity of undeath in the pantheon? Perhaps. But not the only one that grants rebuking; the high priest of Fenrir, God of Monsters, bolsters undead here. This page is also useful for showing what rebuking looks like in this book 's art style.

Fair enough. So that leaves "Loki dislikes undead enough his priests Turn", which is admittedly not terribly plausible. Is there actual examples of such kind of behavior in the RAW gods?

GW

[zimmerwald1915]

Well they are siblings after all.

Isn't everybody? Or related, at least?

[grandpheonix]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha OH varsuvious you fool! XD!

[Wysper]

Am I the only one that noticed the parallel between Roy forgetting who Hilgya was, and Xykon constantly forgetting who Roy is?

Also, she clearly says in the last panel of the previous strip she is here to help Murder Durkon.
Though I'm curious why Loki wouldn't have answered the prayer previously.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Isn't everybody? Or related, at least?

Not in OotS: many different lineages were created ex nihilo at world creation a few millennia back. That's why only a fifth of all black dragons died, instead of all of them.

Though I'm curious why Loki wouldn't have answered the prayer previously.

Before he didn't have a vote to protect. Without Greg's actions, Loki likely wins the vote.

GW

[The MunchKING]

How on earth would Hilgya end up saddled with a baby that she didn't give birth to?

"Ack I'm dying, Hilgya my best friend in the whole world, please do me one favor; look after my baby for me!" *Dies*

Who she calls sweetie and refers to herself as mommy.

GW

To be fair, adopted mom do that too...

Fair enough. So that leaves "Loki dislikes undead enough his priests Turn", which is admittedly not terribly plausible. Is there actual examples of such kind of behavior in the RAW gods?

GW

Esp. considering he liked the undead enough to have a half-undead baby girl. :D

But I think in RAW there was one Neutral God who was like "All my priests turn Undead", but I can't remember who. I'd have to look it up.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not in OotS: many different lineages were created ex nihilo at world creation a few millennia back. That's why only a fifth of all black dragons died, instead of all of them.

GW

I was debating putting "in the pantheon" in. Went with snappy over clear, and it bit me, just like it always does.

[Fyraltari]

Isn't everybody? Or related, at least?

Well in the original mythology, Loki and the children he had with his mistress : Hel, Fenrir the Wolf and Jörmugandr are giants not Ases like the rest of the gods.
I am pretty sure Freyr and Freya are elfs too.
I don't know Norse mythology as well as greek but I think there is considerably less incest going on in the former than in the latter.

Of course the Giant said he did not follow the actual mythology but if Hel is still Loki's daughter there isno reason to assume Fenrir is not his son.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To be fair, adopted mom do that too...

If Hilgya adopted the baby, the baby is hers. I don't make a distinction between biological and adoptive mothers.

Esp. considering he liked the undead enough to have a half-undead baby girl. :D

Possibly, whatever undead monstrosity got Loki pregnant (and yes, I'm assuming Loki's the person that gestated Hel, because Loki will be Loki) left some psychological scars that justifies his "from now on, we say no to undead"?

(Yeah, yeah, straws are being grasped. I'm aware)

Grey Wolf

[The MunchKING]

If Hilgya adopted the baby, the baby is hers. I don't make a distinction between biological and adoptive mothers.

Well, fair enough, but you replied to a quote about how she could have had one she didn't give birth to, so I was going on with that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, fair enough, but you replied to a quote about how she could have had one she didn't give birth to, so I was going on with that.

Fair enough; I was actually responding to the original statement (that made no such specification), and quoted Keltest only as an indication I was aware he had posted on the topic as well, but in hindsight there is no way anyone else could have known that.

GW

[Knick]

You can tell she's a true dwarf: she wears a baby as armour.

[SavageWombat]

You know, if you're determined to come up with a way for a CE cleric to turn undead, there's always the amulet vs. undead. But I'm not 100% that it ever showed up in 3e.

[Gnoman]

Am I the only one that noticed the parallel between Roy forgetting who Hilgya was, and Xykon constantly forgetting who Roy is?

That's not really a parallel. Roy has been getting in Xykon's way regularly, and smashed Xykon pretty decisively the first time they met. Hilgya was a minor member of the B-villain team in their first apperance, and she's played no role whatsoever since. He has no more reason to remember her than he would to remember that dwarf assassin he ran into.

[Goblin_Priest]

D&D metaphysics says Loki has to be Neutral or Good for one of his clerics to Turn Undead. As yet, we don't know if the Giant is using that rule or decided to do something different.

Either

1) Loki and Hylgia are both neutral or good, but in-lore suggests that Loki is evil and that she probably is as well.
2) Rich is disregarding that restriction for the Stickverse.
3) Some evil gods have specific rules opposite to the standard, offering turn instead of rebuke.
4) Loki grants some kind of domain that allows the switch.
5) There's some shady (homebrew?) feat that allows the switch

[8BitNinja]

To be honest, I didn't realize that the baby is Durkon's kid until this panel. It should have been obvious, as he has the same hair and skin tone as Durkon.

[Goblin_Priest]

Am I the only one that noticed the parallel between Roy forgetting who Hilgya was, and Xykon constantly forgetting who Roy is?

Also, she clearly says in the last panel of the previous strip she is here to help Murder Durkon.
Though I'm curious why Loki wouldn't have answered the prayer previously.

Not sure I'd equate them, but I remember somebody called it, that Roy would be the one not to remember her.

[GreatWyrmGold]

"Not now, Mommy's making a dramatic entrance"
Priceless!

And here I thought only Elan's family would care about that.

Maybe he ain't Chaotic Evil, but he is Neutral Evil...

I'm pretty sure Loki would be insulted by someone saying he's more evil than he is chaotic.

Am I the only one that noticed the parallel between Roy forgetting who Hilgya was, and Xykon constantly forgetting who Roy is?

To be fair, Hilgya never fought Roy or declared that she was there to avenge her father or said anything to him. I just counted--before 1105, there were six strips where they were both onpanel, and only a couple more where they were in the same room. Elan was in the same room as Hilgya for much longer, and...commented on her actions.
How, Hilgya didn't do much when she was in the LG.

Spoiler: Baby Names

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I was just about to comment about Haley saying : '"Ok, guys, here's the the thing:", but then the Giant ninja edited the comic before I logged in to post.

In other news, we need to name this baby. I propose Lokor Fireshield, after Loki and Thor and Durkon and Hilgya's last names.

I never said I was good at naming things.

Clearly. "Thoki" sounds (slightly) less silly.
But, um, Hilgya probably already named the kid...

I've been mentally calling it the Tykon.

I don't know who that name makes me think of (this guy is too obscure and non-threatening to be it), but that name seems ominous to me.

Spoiler: Rhetorical Questions Answered

Show

What part of "Help murder Durkon" is ambiguous?

The tone.

This strip strikes me as a bit odd. Hilgya is peculiarly nonchalant about meeting the order again. Shouldn't she assume that they are still allied with Durkon and would attempt to prevent her from killing him?

Yeah, because the group she was with held together so well.

How does she know their "strategy concerns" discussion doesn't involve subduing her?

Elan said "That's great," not "Um...great." I'm pretty sure she interacted enough with Elan to know that he wasn't the type to eagerly offer to join someone going off to kill his friend, or the kind to try and trick someone into thinking he was. (Certainly not the kind to succeed.)

Why isn't one of her first questions "so where is Durkon, anyways?"

When you see a party of adventurers struggling together against a bunch of vampires and they aren't cursing their cleric's absence, they're probably down one healbot for whatever reason.

Do you know of a single, non-patriarchal society that forces women to marry?

Do you know any society that considers trees their hereditary ennemy ?

Sworn enemy, not hereditary enemy. Dwarves don't force people to fight trees.
But more to the point, patriarchies forcing women into marriage exist IRL. Societies which hate trees do not.

[Chris Wiz]

It feels like an euphemism for sex, given that it is Belkar. In any case, I've never heard of it before, if it is indeed slang.

"Slipping one past the goalie" is a hockey metaphor for getting a woman pregnant.

[Shining Wrath]

That depends on what laws the dwarven patriarchy operates on.

Germany, for example, to my knowledge still has the law that a child born to a married woman is considered her husband's child by default. Nowadays, the genetic father might be able to claim rights by doing a gene test, but in case of Hilgyasson, I rather doubt that paternity tests are a thing, so Durkon might be able, completely in accord with his culture, tell her that it is her husband's duty to raise the kid.

Who knows, perhaps they have customs according to which her husband would have been legally entitled to kill the child, and by letting it live he saddled himself with the responsibility to care for it.

Just speculation.

Look - there's no requirement for a society to be patriarchal in order to have arranged marriages, and we see many instances in-strip of women having authority over men (starting with Durkon's own parents).

I name the baby Durkspawn.

[Toper]

Such a great comic! I love how polite Elan is - remembering Hilgya's name but not stepping on her upcoming dramatic reveal. And every exchange is a nice illustration of the Order's dynamics, and the last panel is just the best.

[Fyraltari]

Not sure I'd equate them, but I remember somebody called it, that Roy would be the one not to remember her.

Yeah because early on he really did not care about NPC. At all.

And here I thought only Elan's family would care about that.

Everybody cares about that. Elan & Co are just extremes.

I'm pretty sure Loki would be insulted by someone saying he's more evil than he is chaotic.

Seconded.

Sworn enemy, not hereditary enemy. Dwarves don't force people to fight trees.

Do you know of a single, non-patriarchal society that forces women to marry? (Or, really, anyone)?

At least part of dwarven society is a patriarchy.

Do you know any society that considers trees their hereditary ennemy ?

But more to the point, patriarchies forcing women into marriage exist IRL. Societies which hate trees do not.
[/spoiler]

A sworn ennemy that is passed down from generation to generation is hereditary, this is not thehip new trend of Dwarven culture.
Themrys used a rethorical question to state that they is no example of a non-patriarcal society using arranged marriage, implying that the exiqtence of this custom meant the Dwarves lived under a patriarchy.
I used a rethorical question to state that there is no example of a society hating trees either, implying that their attempt to slap a real-life correlation to a fictionnalsociety of non-humans living in a comedy world was nonsensical.

Anyway according to Grey Wolf (haven't checked yet but I 'm going to trust him for now) the correlation doesn't even exist in real life making Themrys' absurd conviction of the Dwarven Land operating under state-supported misogyny look even more shaky :

As to RL, the Hopi culture was (is) strongly matriarchal, and powerful families engaged in arranged marriages, therefore neatly demolishing your entire argument that one is a requirement for the other.

Arranged marriages are a common thread across all cultures and times as a way to control inter-family politics. Yes, patriarchies have arranged marriages, but so do all other historical societies that you care to look into.

I might add that arranged marriages are still a fringe phenomenon in societies that frown upon them.

[Draconi Redfir]

i don't understand everyone's confusion about turning / bolstering undead.

consider for a moment: All clerics can do both. one is maybe just more effective then the other.

other possibility: obscure feat allows it.

i mean it's not like the comic has been 100% consistent with RAW anyways right? They break or bend the rules all the time, because it's not a game, it's a world that just has game-rules.

[Emanick]

I don't know who that name makes me think of (this guy is too obscure and non-threatening to be it), but that name seems ominous to me.

Typhon, maybe? "The most deadly creature in Greek mythology" (emphasis mine) is not a pretty title to have.