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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    One intensely frustrating thing is that the new spell cause fear is not on the list of spells for conquest paladin.

    HOWEVER. Magic Initiate (Warlord) lets you use it, and get a couple of cantrips (like Booming Blade and Toll the Dead, for example) and key off your charisma for it.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by alchahest View Post
    For those familiar with the Iron Kingdoms, Skarre, the pirate queen of the Satyxis WONDERFULLY fits as a tiefling Paladin of Conquest with the mariner fighting style.
    A hexblade dip is a particularly good fit here, thematically as well as mechanically.

    Quote Originally Posted by alchahest View Post
    One intensely frustrating thing is that the new spell cause fear is not on the list of spells for conquest paladin.

    HOWEVER. Magic Initiate (Warlord) lets you use it, and get a couple of cantrips (like Booming Blade and Toll the Dead, for example) and key off your charisma for it.
    While a decent enough spell, cause fear isn't a very good substitute for fear proper, as it targets only one enemy per slot level. Still something to consider picking up, but I'm not sure it's worth burning a feat on, particularly as I don't think the spell from magic initiate can be cast with normal spell slots, only the feat's own 1/long rest ability. The UA skill feat 'Menacing' would probably go a lot further, if you're looking for feat-based ways to inflict frighten.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    I noticed a lot of the sample multiclass builds stop at paladin 8. While that makes sense for ASI's and abilities, I think it's underselling the importance of access to third level spells for fear. Without fear, your options for aoe frighten become very limited, just one per short rest by default.
    This is a very good point. I'll tinker with the multiclass examples a bit to reflect this. Thanks!

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    In terms of multiclass builds, I'm starting to grow fond of Conquest Paladin 1 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin +11 / Shadow Sorcerer 7. Or, if you have the stats for it, maybe even taking Hexblade at level 1.

    The single hexblade level is a bit cheesy, and delays all the important conquest stuff (especially extra attack & aura of conquest) by a single level, but it's worth it to have single stat offense from level 1 or 2.

    Gets:

    from hexblade - hex warrior, hexblade's curse, a single short rest slot for smite or shield.

    from conquest - all three auras, extra attack, fear, improved divine smite, 3 ASIs (enough for Warcaster, +2 cha, and +2cha - all a sword & board conquest hexadin needs)

    from sorcerer - metamagic (quicken, obviously, with careful, heighten, or twin as a secondary option), 4th level spells known, +7 caster levels (with 6 from paladin that nets you 13 total, enough for 2 fifth, 1 sixth, and 1 seventh level spell slot to grind into sorcery points, plus lower level slots for smites and spells) several on-theme spoopy abilities, including its own version of darkness/devil's sight even though you don't have warlock invocations. Plus one more ASI - maybe sentinel, maybe shield master. Doesn't really matter all that much because it comes so late, but it's there.


    I'm also partial to: Conquest Pally 8, Hexblade blade pact 12. Only pally 8, but you do still pick up fear from warlock levels, if admittedly four levels later than a pure pally gets it, so I like this more on Fallen Aasimar & Dragonborn w/ Dragon Fear than others. All the fun hexblade stuff, plus lifedrinker as a capstone. Minimal ASI delays, eventual 3x recharging 5th level spell slots, one 6th level spell per day, several invocations, eventually compatible with great sword or glaive. The same level spread probably works better as an oath-breaker, but that'd be a completely different character.
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2017-12-21 at 03:46 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    In terms of multiclass builds, I'm starting to grow fond of Conquest Paladin 1 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin +11 / Shadow Sorcerer 7. Or, if you have the stats for it, maybe even taking Hexblade at level 1.
    Since multiclass stat requirements apply regardless of whether you're entering or leaving the class, the only real difference here is skill proficiencies and HP, no? I'm not sure why stats would come into it.

    Otherwise, those are definitely some interesting thoughts there.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    A hexblade dip is a particularly good fit here, thematically as well as mechanically.



    While a decent enough spell, cause fear isn't a very good substitute for fear proper, as it targets only one enemy per slot level. Still something to consider picking up, but I'm not sure it's worth burning a feat on, particularly as I don't think the spell from magic initiate can be cast with normal spell slots, only the feat's own 1/long rest ability. The UA skill feat 'Menacing' would probably go a lot further, if you're looking for feat-based ways to inflict frighten.
    between Wrathful Smite and Cause Fear, Wrathful smite is a much more potent fear, plus damage, but, it's melee range and requires hitting vs AC prior to the will save, and subsequent rounds are a wis check. Cause fear just has the will save, but subsequent saves afterwards are will saves instead of checks. It's versatility at the expense of power. I have considered Menacing, but the 1 round timeframe on it is too short, in my opinion. magic initiate also gives access to combat cantrips, which can add potency and more versatility. It's not an every-conqueror feat, but could be a good one to have on tap for some of them.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    If I were taking magic initiate, I'd probably go with 'find familiar', and sacrifice it to give me advantage on wrathful smite against ornery targets. :p

    Since cause fear is a warlock spell, and hexblade is so tempting anyway, you could always skip the feat and just pick it up with a hexblade dip along with shield, in place of... what would a hexadin take as their second level 1 warlock spell known? Hex? I'd say armor of agathys, but conquest pallies already get that.
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by ZZTRaider View Post
    Since multiclass stat requirements apply regardless of whether you're entering or leaving the class, the only real difference here is skill proficiencies and HP, no? I'm not sure why stats would come into it.
    The stats come into it because Str 15 (required for full plate) is generally a much smaller investment than Str 13 (to multiclass w/ pally) plus Dex 14 (for medium armor). Unless you're playing a race with at least +1 cha and +2 split whatever ways between dex and con (drow, shadar-kai, and non-variant humans are the only examples springing to my mind), then you won't be able to get 13 strength/14 dex/14 con without sacrificing points in cha, and imo that's just not acceptable. Half elf can do it, but if they go with heavy armor they can have a 16 con instead of 14, and the benefits of having a +2 dex mod probably don't outweigh that.

    So in most cases, if you want to play a hexadin, you're going to put 15 post-racial points in strength, dump dex, and take paladin at first level to wear heavy armor.
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2017-12-29 at 06:22 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Updated the guide to include Unearthed Arcana races, subraces, and feats.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Looking pretty good. At this point the main thing i'd like to see, unless its already there and i just missed it, is some in depth example builds, with snapshots at levels 1, 10, and 20. Maybe:

    * fallen aasimar or half elf for the pure archetype

    * dragonborn w/ dragon fear

    * vuman polearm build

    * maybe drow or half elf dexadin?

    Plus the same for a couple of the multiclass builds
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Legimus View Post
    [*]Inspiring Leader: You’ll have the CHA, and 5 extra HP before every fight is nice.
    Inspiring Leader is level + CHA mod, so it's much more than 5 extra HP. Pretty fantastic.
    Last edited by daisychopper; 2017-12-28 at 12:02 PM.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    The more I look at oath of conquest, the harder it is to multiclass.

    Like, you're going to take at least seven levels, that's a given. but then...
    Spoiler
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    but then you're only one level away from an asi on a pretty feat starved build, so you're going to take 8th level for the asi.

    then you're only one level away from fear, which is almost as big a deal for you as your aura itself, because any enemy that fails the save and gets stuck in your aura just doesn't get to save again. their only hope of breaking out of the condition is you losing your concentration.

    So you're going to get that 9th level, but then you're one level away from aura of courage, and sure, on most paladins that's a bit of a ribbon, but then you remember that your own fear spell isn't party friendly by default, and neither is fallen aasimar's one round fear burst, so aura of courage makes several of your best abilities considerably more flexible.

    So ok, you took 10th level for aura of courage, but now improved divine smite is only one level away, and apart from the first level in hexblade, what level in what other class is going to do better for you than +4.5 damage on every swing?

    And then you're back to being one level shy of an asi.

    so you take the asi, but then you're only one level shy of 4th level spells, and paladin's got some great ones, including banishment, find greater steed, aura of life, and death ward. Oh, sure, some of those you can get from multiclassing with casters, but you'd have to spend seven levels in another class before getting access to them, when you could have them right now for just one more level.

    And then you'd only be a level away from Cleansing Touch, letting you burn an action to shrug off any spell effect that doesn't prevent you from taking actions outright, or end such effects on a friend.

    And then you're only one level away from scornful rebuke, which may not seem like that much damage, but then you remember that it triggers every single attack, with no reaction, no concentration, no investment of any kind, you just have to be awake, and yeah, it's pretty great.

    And after all that, you're once again only one level away from an ASI, though with three under your belt the fourth might not be as pressing. But only one level after that is destructive wave, and your improved aura radius is only a level beyond that...


    Apart from a single level hexblade dip, I don't see how you can justify straying from this class before level 18. The next level of paladin just always seems to be getting you something better than the next level in anything else. Even sorcerer, that favorite of paladin multiclasses, seems hard to justify, as tempting as quickened fear might be.

    I've been tinkering with a conquest/hexblade multiclass, and I really want to get to the third level of warlock for that chain familiar, plus misty step for some mobility, and the XGE chain invocation for maximized healing (as a tank, you'll attract more damage, and need more healing, so it's nice to make healing spell cast on you more efficient), and it just isn't coming together at all, because I can't see where or when I'd reasonably be able to to take those other two warlock levels.

    And that's only three levels into the class with arguably the best and easiest synergy with conquest paladin.
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Legimus View Post

    First, you actually want to start with 15 STR if possible, or at least make sure you have it by level 4 (e.g. start with 14 STR and 17 CHA, put a point into both), because you want to be able to wear plate.
    So I was reading over the PHB recently and was reminded of this discussion. Apparently, the only disadvantage of wearing armor whose STR req you don't meet is that you lose 10 feet of movement. You can still wear it though. It kinda sucks, but 25 for a human is no worse than a dwarf. 20 feet is worse than a dwarf, but as a hex-dip with 13 STR I could take Mobile, and get free disengages in addition to the move speed :)

    EDIT: mis-remembered human move speed.
    Last edited by daisychopper; 2018-01-02 at 12:04 PM.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by daisychopper View Post
    So I was reading over the PHB recently and was reminded of this discussion. Apparently, the only disadvantage of wearing armor whose STR req you don't meet is that you lose 10 feet of movement. You can still wear it though. It kinda sucks, but 25 for a human is no worse than a dwarf. 20 feet is worse than a dwarf, but as a hex-dip with 13 STR I could take Mobile, and get free disengages in addition to the move speed :)

    EDIT: mis-remembered human move speed.
    This is good to know the penalty is just speed. There are two key things with an underdark campaign this comes into relevance for a Charisma/Dex build.

    1) Wearing plate while riding my mount won't really limit me.
    2) A campaign that allows you to start with a magical item, might as well go Mithral Halfplate.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    I'm trying to put together a 'typical', no frills, single classed conquest pally, and am getting hung up on the ASIs. As I see it, the priorities are:

    * max out cha
    * max out attack stat
    * shore up concentration saves

    Assuming std point buy and a race with +2 stat bonus spread between cha and atk, just those priorities will eat up each and every one of your ASIs. More likely, you'll be taking a race with +3 between cha and atk stat, but that only buys you a single half feat that comes with either +1 atk stat or cha. And even there, there isn't much choice, since there's always an obvious best half feat to take - menacing if UA is allowed, if not dragon fear for dragonborn, elven accuracy for drow or half elves, and heavy armor master for anyone else.

    Variant human can get either one feat at first level that adds nothing to atk or cha, or can take two half feats that both add to atk or cha. But varient humans lack darkvision and other desirable racial traits.

    So how does a conquest pally take combos like PAM + sentinel, or, if UA is allowed, Menacing + Shield Master or PAM (both of which grant the same 'menace, shove, attack' routine)?

    Which of the main priorities can be dropped, and how long can the others be delayed? Is it acceptable to be swinging with a 16 attack stat all the way to level 19? Is aura of protection enough of a boost to concentration that you don't need resilient con or war caster, given how important the Fear spell is for you? What's the latest level you can reasonably delay 20 cha to? 12? 16?

    A single level hexblade dip can help, but there are real costs there. Everything gets delayed by a level, and, for conquest pallies more than any other oath, there are no dead paladin levels. Aura of Courage is no mere ribbon for us, not when we're throwing unfriendly Fears into the thick of the fighting, and with our maxed out casting stat access to higher level spells known dramatically adds to our toolkit, where other pallies migh see those levels as just more smite slots better taken from warlock or sorcerer levels.

    And single level Hexblades have to stick to a single one handed weapon - no halberds, no back pocket whips. And you'll need war caster, probably sooner than you would have needed resilient con otherwise.

    And after all that, you buy yourself 2 open feats in the build, but you don't get to use then until levels 17 and 20, so they hardly even count.

    Given all these issues, I'm not sure many of the feats deserve as high a rating as they have. When is a Conquest Pally ever really going to take sentinel or shield master or PAM or lucky or tough or inspiring leader? It seems only a human gets to take any of those, and even then only one, so none of them should be rated higher than vuman, and probably only one should even rate that high. And vuman is probably only the fourth or 5th best conquest pally race, depending on how you rate their one free feat vs. the benefits of Triton or Drow.

    What do you guys think a 'typical' conquest ASI progression is even supposed to look like? For me, it's looking like:

    Fallen Aasimar:
    - heavy armor master
    - +1 STR, +1 CHA
    - +2 CHA
    - Resilient Con
    - +2 STR

    Half Elf - can go with Str or Dex as attack stat
    - +2 STR or DEX
    - Elven Accuracy
    - +2 CHA
    - Resilient Con
    - +2 STR or DEX

    Dragonborn
    - +1 STR, +1 CHA
    - Dragon Fear
    - +2 CHA
    - Resilient Con
    - +2 STR

    Triton
    - +2 STR
    - +2 CHA
    - +2 CHA
    - Resilient Con
    - +2 STR

    Vuman - can go Str or Dex as attack stat
    - open feat at first level
    - +2 STR or DEX
    - +2 CHA
    - +2 CHA
    - Resilient Con
    - +2 STR or DEX

    Drow
    - +1 Dex, +1 Cha
    - Elven Accuracy
    - +2 Cha
    - Resilient Con
    - +2 Dex

    Not a lot of wiggle room to work with.
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2018-01-03 at 11:17 AM.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    I'm trying to put together a 'typical', no frills, single classed conquest pally, and am getting hung up on the ASIs. As I see it, the priorities are:

    * max out cha
    * max out attack stat
    * shore up concentration saves

    Assuming std point buy and a race with +2 stat bonus spread between cha and atk, just those priorities will eat up each and every one of your ASIs. More likely, you'll be taking a race with +3 between cha and atk stat, but that only buys you a single half feat that comes with either +1 atk stat or cha. And even there, there isn't much choice, since there's always an obvious best half feat to take - menacing if UA is allowed, if not dragon fear for dragonborn, elven accuracy for drow or half elves, and heavy armor master for anyone else.

    ...

    Given all these issues, I'm not sure many of the feats deserve as high a rating as they have. When is a Conquest Pally ever really going to take sentinel or shield master or PAM or lucky or tough or inspiring leader?
    You say you want a "typical, no-frills, single classed conquest pally," but then you spend the rest of your post talking how you have no room for feats. Thing is, feats are frills; they're not typical. Feats are an optional set of rules for character customization in 5e. So by necessity, the base rule set has to be designed so that all of the ASI's go toward ... well, ASIs. That's why they're called that. If your priorities are to max your stats, then you don't have room for feats, by design. And that's fine - stats are more important to you anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post

    And single level Hexblades have to stick to a single one handed weapon - no halberds, no back pocket whips. And you'll need war caster, probably sooner than you would have needed resilient con otherwise.
    The single Hex-dip is worth it for Hex Warrior alone. Anything else is gravy. As a v-human, you can use point-buy to start with 13-10-16-8-10-16 (str-dex-con-int-wis-cha) and a feat. You only need 3 ASI if you want to bump your STR to 15, which leaves you room for two more feats. If you don't mind the movement penalty, you could drop it down to 2 ASI and get three more feats instead.

    It seems like you're dismissing it just because it's limited to a single one-handed weapon, but sword-and-board is "typical" as it gets for paladins of all oaths. Halberds, off-hand whips? Those are frills, my man. But then again, so is multiclassing - another optional rule set per the PHB.
    Last edited by daisychopper; 2018-01-05 at 02:03 PM.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    I think what you're getting hung up on is the difficulty of optimizing a Conqueror, rather than making one in general. You're right to point out that there are few choices, and that derives from it being fairly MAD. In my opinion, if you want to optimize a straightforward Conqueror without multiclassing, it's impossible unless you take one of the sky blue races. You're also right that optimizing doesn't leave much wiggle room here. You need maxed CHA, high STR, and feats. That being said, I don't find that particularly discouraging. Your options are limited only if you want to seriously optimize your Conqueror. I think that there's some variability if you're okay with making some small sacrifices. At the end of it all, the central question to making a good Conqueror is this: Can you keep your enemies afraid of you? That is your single most important function, and if you can do that, everything else is variable.

    My first suggestion would be that it's not all-important to max out STR. There's pretty much no way you can afford to do it early, but by the time you're in the later levels the difference between 18 and 20 STR is not that important to you. It's a little extra damage, a little extra chance to hit, and a little better odds against STR checks like Grapple. Now, it's great to have all of those things, but remember that you're the party tank. It's okay to have less damage output. The most important thing you can do for your party is control the battlefield and take hits. Let your comrades deal damage. Most of this still applies if you're DEX-based as well.

    Regarding concentration saves, it's fantastic to have them, but not always necessary. Your most powerful frighten ability, in my opinion, is Conquering Presence. That's on a short rest and takes no concentration. If you're using UA, Menacing doesn't take concentration either. So if you're worried about taking too many hits and losing concentration, you still have some potent tools in your toolkit to stay effective. I'd strongly recommend taking either Resilient or Warcaster, but they aren't necessities, especially considering the enormous boost you get from Aura of Protection. As a tank you get a lot of mileage from feats in general, and I think you'd be foolish to not take at least one, but you have some room to choose what you truly want without getting too hamstrung.

    With all this in mind, I think your only "non-negotiable" goals should be to max out CHA (preferably by level 8) and bring your attack stat to 18. And regarding CHA, I really am a firm believer that you should max it out as early as possible, because (a) your whole kit revolves around landing spells and (b) it makes Aura of Protection ridiculously strong. These two goals can be easily accomplished by level 12 by most if not all of the blue and sky blue races, and that leaves you two ASIs to take whatever you're most interested in. Now, if you're taking one of the black-rated races, you're already handicapping yourself a bit, so you won't have this flexibility. But you can still accomplish this with a lot of them, too. And if you can meet those two objectives, I frankly think you're in a pretty good position.

    Again, you're not going to be optimized. You want to be the absolute best Conqueror you can be, your options are fairly limited. If you want to take a slightly different route though, for whatever reason, you can still make for a potent and frightening tank.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    I know the hexblade dip is great, I'm just saying it doesn't come without cost, and it doesn't help with freeing up ASIs, not until the highest levels anyway.

    Otherwise, i kind of disagree with the channel divinity being your best fear causer, at least once you can cast Fear itself. They have the same initial save, but the CD allows a new save at the end of every turn, where fear allows no follow up saves at all for enemies trapped in your aura.

    The only hope of escape is for you to fail a concentration save, which adds to your tanking ability by putting a target on your head, and unlike barbarian reckless strike, it does so without lowering your own defenses at all. Without that added incentive, ranged enemies trapped in your aura may as well go right on attacking your allies while they wait for a high save roll to pop free of your control.

    Fear is absolutly amazing on a conquest pally, but making effective use of it kind of requires shoring up your concentration saves, so, imo, doing so should be a high priority, at least by level 12 to 16, with either resilient con or, if you have access to booming blade, or a secondary caster class with more important somatic spells, warcaster. Or possibly with a first level fighter dip, particularly if you plan on taking more levels of fighter later in your progression.

    Which brings me back to the question of priorities and timing. Let's say we accept that an 18 is an acceptable final strength score. At what level do we think a conquerer should have that by? 12? 16? Is it acceptable to plan on rolling to hit with a 16 strength until level 19?


    Anyway, I don't mean my comments on lack of slack for ASIs to be a jab against the subclass, its just that I kind of question the high ratings given to so many feats, at least to the ones that don't improve strength, dex, cha, or concentration saves.

    And the gold rating for Sentinel in particular. Its a great feat, but when are you going to take it? Not at levels four or eight if you need that 20 cha. Not at level 12 if you need that 18 strength or dex. And by level sixteen I really have to question if sentinel will do more for you than resilient con. A gold rating implies nearly every conquest pally build should have it, and as soon as possible, but I personally can't see it being the obvious best choice until maybe level 19, and anything that could be taken as early as level 4, but can and arguably even should be put off until the late teens just doesn't feel gold to me.

    Am I off base, here?
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2018-01-07 at 05:44 PM.
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