Character was arrested, having a hard time figuring out how not to break the group

[Darth Credence]

tl;dr - a player with an evil item was arrested for it in the city of the good Gods, and while the players seem happy with the direction, I am not sure how to move forward without splitting the party permanently.

During our last session, the players were returning from seeking wisdom from a dragon, and were attacked. On the way to the dragon, they passed a guardian who said that corruption was following them - they thought that he was talking about one of the PCs, who has a cursed coin, when really it meant that an enemy was following them invisibly to get to the dragon. The enemy made it, did his thing, and caused some problems.

The PCs make it back to town in the middle of the night, and want to immediately go into the city to tell the higher ups at the temple. The guards at the gate tell them to come back in the morning. They demand to be let in immediately, and based on the level of the paladin and his connection to the city, they eventually let them in, although just into the gatehouse until someone with more authority can be summoned. They get a captain who knows them, they say it is urgent as there are evil creatures on the mountain and they have to report. Here is where it could have gone differently - the captain tells them to follow him and he'll get them an audience, the wizard wants to just stay there, but the captain says they should all go. They demand to speak to the higher ups in the temple, to tell them what happened, and so they drag them out of bed. They ask the paladin to tell the story, from the beginning.

The paladin tells the story, staring with the big event of the enemy getting to the dragon and causing the problem. They ask how this could happen, and the paladin told them the guardian warned them, but they thought he just meant a member of the party was corrupt. The higher ups found this to be a noteworthy thing, and asked what was meant. The paladin said that one of his companions had a cursed coin that lead to corruption and so they thought it was just that. Cue the record scratch.

The wizard had the coin, and had been warned by his mentor that if the people in this city learned of it, she would likely be imprisoned. Her mentor had also told her repeatedly to stop what she was doing and return home to get the curse lifted. She refused, as she is hoping to make it work for her. She has hidden it from the people in the city thus far. The party as a whole also knows that the coin is one of 20 that were used to create the leader of the armies of the damned from the time a thousand years ago when the world was broken. They also know that this city in particular fought against that leader, and barely held out, stopping their advance and being the only city to survive the breaking with anything intact. So they absolutely, positively, knew that this would be a big deal in this town. When the paladin mentioned the coin, I brought all of this up, and he said he had to tell them everything.

OK, so the higher ups ask who has the coin. No one will tell them. Even the person who had told the existence of the coin, now refuses to say who has it. Guards come in, and they bring in a cleric to cast zone of truth. We have established that we run ZoT by having a saving throw for each question, and the caster knows if they passed. Well, eventually they figure out that the wizard has it, and arrest her. It was a little iffy for a bit as to whether they would fight, but when I said "are you surrendering, or are we rolling initiative?", she surrendered. They claimed that this group of good people are not being good by arresting her, which I disagree with, but they can think what they wish, I guess. They put her in a comfortable cell, left her with gloves locked on that would prevent her from doing somatic components but not harm her, and put all of her equipment in a locked chest outside of the cell, not even searching it until a judge could be called in.

And that's where we ended it. I have three ways in my head to resolve this. Have a trial, and have her released into the custody of the paladin. That seems the most likely to keep the group together, but least likely for them to go for. The wizard's mentor has a group of people working for him, and is teleporting a thief team in to break the wizard out. That seems the most likely path they will take, but the group will be split. My favorite method is the strike team forges the coin, goes in, casts magic aura on it to make it seem real, and swaps it out, then the wizard turns over the coin and leaves to be cured of the curse by her own Deity. This could allow for her to hide the coin from the party again, and everyone could be together. I have no idea how likely this is for them to go for - I don't know if there is even a chance they think of it.

To be clear, I talked with wizard and paladin after the session. The wizard was loving it! She felt that it was what should have happened once the coin was revealed, although she also says her character will hold a grudge towards the paladin. The paladin wanted to know if the church is corrupt, and what he can do to get her out. I let him know they are not, and reminded him of how bad the coins are. He said he will be looking for a lawyer for her.

So, how badly have I screwed up? Is there a way out I'm missing?

[Bobthewizard]

You can get out of this. "Now that we have the coin and it is no longer a threat, promise not to do it again and we will let you go. We have more important prisoners to attend to." Losing the coin that she liked should be enough punishment.

Or go to trial if you think it will be more fun.

[Cicciograna]

I don't really think you screwed up, but these Good people are being extremely strict, bordering on the Lawful Stupid. Remember, even Miko was convinced that Roy was Evil just because he was carrying Xykon's crown. Imprisoning the guy just because he has an evil McGuffin sounds like a blind application of some kind of rule that completely disregards the actual nature of the person.

I would just release the character and have the city keep the coin "to safeguard it". After all, if one of the pieces to summon the Evil Lord of Evil Evilness is in their hands, chances to summon him will be smaller next time.

On the other hand, if the players are enjoying this, go forth. Personally I was subject, in the past, to some kind of trial with an accusation from which I couldn't really defend myself properly, and it was such a horrible experience that it completely ruined the playing experience for that specific game, but YMMV.

[Man_Over_Game]

The players don't have to know what "corruption was following them" actually means. Players think it means one things, you reveal it actually meant another thing, and then BAM COMES THE THING THEY WEREN'T LOOKING FOR.

This would be a great moment to have a giant catastrophe happen. The players have to bust out their friend from jail while half the town is dealing with A Really Big Problem.

Thinking about it, this would be a great way to split the party if you were willing to invest into it. You could do two different sessions, one with each half, neither knowing exactly what kind of mess the other half of the party is dealing with. One half is trying to break the wizard out of jail, watching hellfire/dragon fire/demons rain from the sky while the other half is trying to save the town, both meetup after the split-party session to save the town and earn favor with the not-evil church after trying to break the wizard out (that the church hopefully has no idea was about to happen). It'll also force the church to recognize that they can't always solve problems their way, they have to compromise with folks who share similar goals if they're going to be successful, and now the church is more than just some antagonistic organization that means well as they build a working relationship with the party.

It'd make a great story.

[Cheesegear]

I am not sure how to move forward without splitting the party permanently.

First, what's wrong with rolling a new character, if the current one is unplayable?

The paladin said that one of his companions had a cursed coin that lead to corruption and so they thought it was just that.

You probably should have a long think about what and why.

'This coin leads to corruption.' Okay. You don't have to tell the players. But you should definitely know what that means.
- Does it mean that the player will be corrupted? If so, how?
- Is it a tool for a ritual? If so, what?
- Is it a magical item? If so, what does it do.
- Is it sentient? Can it protect itself? How?

I feel like this is something you should have thought about long before now. One of the Archdevils or Demon Lords is my goto:
- Fierna, Geryon, Mammon, Glasya
- Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb...Something
One of them works. The coins are all about creating a Leader, right? To do what?

The wizard had the coin, and had been warned by his mentor that if the people in this city learned of it, she would likely be imprisoned. Her mentor had also told her repeatedly to stop what she was doing and return home to get the curse lifted. She refused, as she is hoping to make it work for her. She has hidden it from the people in the city thus far.

And they had no plan of what to do if they were ever discovered? Seems extremely flawed.

To be clear, I talked with wizard and paladin after the session. The wizard was loving it! She felt that it was what should have happened once the coin was revealed, although she also says her character will hold a grudge towards the paladin. The paladin wanted to know if the church is corrupt, and what he can do to get her out. I let him know they are not, and reminded him of how bad the coins are. He said he will be looking for a lawyer for her.

Why are the coins bad?
What is so bad about having one of the coins?

I feel as though if the Cursed Coin was going to do anything, it should do the thing, now. It wants to be with the Wizard - for reasons - and it will attempt to do get back to the Wizard. It immediately starts creating Thralls, with the intent of returning to the Wizard, and/or getting the Wizard out of prison. Whatever '1 of 20 coins used to create armies of the damned' means, it starts doing that. The town graveyard starts spawning zombies and skeletons. High-ranking nobles buried in crypts and mausoleums start turning to Ghouls. Whatever. Doesn't matter. It's the coin that's doing it. Through this, the Wizard should engineer themselves a way out of prison. Perhaps even a prison riot.

At the end of it, when the Wizard gets a hold of the coin, the whole thing stops. It's back where it wants to be. For whatever reason you can come up with. The coin is not safe in anyone's hands, save the Wizard's - or another, suitably powerful, corruptible bearer. At this point the coin - and all the other coins - need to be destroyed. This should set the party on a quest to collect and/or destroy the other coins.

Meanwhile...Getting into close proximity with each other is exactly what the Coin(s) want. It's all part of the plan. After all, if each Coin is with a suitably powerful bearer...Then each subsequent bearer that kills another must be even more powerful...Good. Gooood. Until one person has all 20 Coins, and becomes Queen Leader of the Damned.

The Coins don't 'create' the Leader... The Leader is the one who has all the Coins. This, likewise, will cause 'those in the know' to try and remove the Coin from the Wizard's possession. Maybe not someone in the Church, but definitely someone in the Keep maybe already has one of the Coins, and is trying to have two...Dun Dun Duuun. Corruption, follows the coins, after all. It doesn't cause corruption, it causes those who are corrupt, to come after it.

[Dark.Revenant]

This is one of those situations that you need a safe word for.


...

More seriously, the answer depends on how your group will take this sort of imperilment and drama. One group might be down for a legal battle where the stakes are a player being hanged and the rest of the group fined an order of magnitude more gold than they can afford to pay—leading to an escalation of debt avoidance and crime that culminates in the IRS Wizards scrying and frying the party. Another group might not want to have anything to do with D&D mock trials and to just have the wrist slapped and move on. Yet another group might want to stage a break-out akin to a heist sequence. You'll know best.

[Unoriginal]

You could have the Paladin find a lawyer... who happens to be a powerful Devil, and also very successful at hiding their nature from the good gods' churches.

Devil Lawyer agree to take the case, and manages to get the wizard out of jail scot free by having her perform a 10 mins ritual that proves she has not been corrupted by the evil coin.

Heck, you could use one of the big name devils, like Moloch or Titivillus.

Or for a twist, you could have a Demonic Lawyer. Fraz-Urb'luu is great at that kind of things. Could be disguised as the humble law scholar Friar Urb

[Cheesegear]

Or for a twist, you could have a Demonic Lawyer. Fraz-Urb'luu is great at that kind of things. Could be disguised as the humble law scholar Friar Urb

That works great combined with my idea.
The Demons want the Coins - and their Bearers - in the world. Why not help?

[Sorinth]

I don't think there needs to be a trial as being cursed shouldn't be a crime. The player is being held for everyone's safety until the the higher ups come up with a plan for breaking the curse and dealing with the item. They might allow the players to be involved in the discussions of how to break the curse and destroy the item depending on the relationship between the players and some of the higher ups. If not they come up with a plan behind closed doors and then tell the party their decision. The players will either go along with that plan to break the curse or not. If they don't accept the plan they can try to escape or do some sort of swap, whatever they want.

I assume you had some sort of plan for if the player had listened to their mentor and returned home to deal with the curse. So one option is if the higher ups try and fail to break the curse themselves (Remove Curse fails), so instead they Geas the player to go home and break the curse by following whatever idea you originally had. The player is effectively exiled from the city until the curse is broken.

[Unoriginal]

I don't think there needs to be a trial as being cursed shouldn't be a crime.

May not be a trial in the legal sense, but they could have some kind of audience/debate/council to establish if the PC is actually cursed or just pretending to avoid consequences for her actions/if the PC is corrupted in other manners/how to handle the curse.

[Battlebooze]

This is a great opportunity to change things up in a way that the players probably won't see coming! You just have to be a little flexible with your plotting.

Maybe coins aren't actually cursed. Maybe they were created by a very clever good god to find and expose corruption in the world, like metal filings drawn to a magnet? They do not create corruption, they were drawn to and collected by evil in the past. This has turned into a legend that just helps their purpose. Evil now pointlessly seeks these coins out thinking it will make them more powerful, wasting time and energy to collect them, while often revealing themselves in the process! The upper echelons of the church know the truth about the coins but keep it a secret because of how useful the legend is. Even if it were revealed, evil forces would think it's a lie to keep them away from the POWER. :D

The player wizard, wanting to keep and use the "corrupting" coin for their own personal use, has revealed that they are potentially corrupt.

This is a great spot to give the players a choice. The Paladin can be given the opportunity by the church to ask the wizard for the coin to be handed back to be protected.

If the Wizard will hand the coin back them willingly, they will absolve the Wizard. If the Wizard refuses, they will go on with the trial, and the character will then become an evil NPC. (They can always break out later or something to keep the NPC involved in the story.)

If the Wizard is willing to hand the coin back, they could be given the ability to sense the coins at a short distance. A neat little boon to reward the character for overcoming the temptation.

After this happens, you could have the Paladin learn the truth about the coins and perhaps share it with the Wizard and the rest of the party. They would still have the motivation to find the coins after all...

[MaxWilson]

They put her in a comfortable cell, left her with gloves locked on that would prevent her from doing somatic components but not harm her, and put all of her equipment in a locked chest outside of the cell, not even searching it until a judge could be called in.

And that's where we ended it. I have three ways in my head to resolve this. Have a trial, and have her released into the custody of the paladin. That seems the most likely to keep the group together, but least likely for them to go for. The wizard's mentor has a group of people working for him, and is teleporting a thief team in to break the wizard out. That seems the most likely path they will take, but the group will be split. My favorite method is the strike team forges the coin, goes in, casts magic aura on it to make it seem real, and swaps it out, then the wizard turns over the coin and leaves to be cured of the curse by her own Deity. This could allow for her to hide the coin from the party again, and everyone could be together. I have no idea how likely this is for them to go for - I don't know if there is even a chance they think of it.

To be clear, I talked with wizard and paladin after the session. The wizard was loving it! She felt that it was what should have happened once the coin was revealed, although she also says her character will hold a grudge towards the paladin. The paladin wanted to know if the church is corrupt, and what he can do to get her out. I let him know they are not, and reminded him of how bad the coins are. He said he will be looking for a lawyer for her.

So, how badly have I screwed up? Is there a way out I'm missing?

Offer the players including the paladin a chance to join the jailbreaking thief team. If they do and succeed, they're reunited in freedom. If they do and fail, they're reunited in prison. If they decline, and if the thief team succeeds anyway, they're reunited in freedom but maybe with a grudge between wizard and paladin. If they decline and the thief team fails, the wizard is stuck in prison, the party is permanently split, and the player should roll up a new character.

Essentially the players have a chance to improve the odds of saving the wizard's freedom. Do they try?

P.S. Bonus points if the thief team is led by Nicodemus Archleone.

[Segev]

A lot could depend on the nature of the curse. It sounds like the wizard, IC and OOC, is a willing participant in it for power's sake. Is this something that has basis in real possibility? Can she get the curse to work to her advantage, if she's willing to pay certain prices (generally involving the curse's inconveniences or doing things it requires of her)? What Tradition is the wizard? That will inform some possible ways a solution using her own magics could come to bear.

Will the coin find its way to her if she remains cursed, no matter what happens?

Can the Good City of Goodness have its Good Priests break the curse against her will?



One possibility is for the coin's corruption to rapidly grow out of control in the hands of whomever is trusted with guarding it. Perhaps distance from the one who bears its curse allows more and more of its corrupting energy to fan out along that conduit between them. One way or another, it's determined that her having the coin is less bad than having it forcibly separated from her, at least in the short- and medium-term. Of course, this leads to questions of whether they should just execute her, or how they keep an eye on her, etc.

You should, if you haven't already, ask her player what the player's plans are, and what the wizard's plans are, both for the coin and for possibly getting out of this situation.

[Darth Credence]

I see that I did not provide enough information, since almost everyone thinks the cursed coin is not her fault. The coins are based on the denarii from the Dresden Files. If you touch one, you get the voice in your head, trying to talk you into giving it power. It acts as a level 1 character, and there is a 10% it levels up each time it is used. If it meets the level of the coin holder, it takes over. The wizard has been using it, and it is level 5. The reason the rest of the party knows about it is finally she did a few too many things that didn't make sense, and they got it out of her. She is hoping to bend it to her will, and use its power. I'm OK with this, and have designed an adventure for her during down time that would give her about 50/50 shot of winning or falling to the coin. She has absolutely been giving evil power of her own free will.

I'm going to answer Cheesegear, since I think they asked all the questions everyone else hit.

First, what's wrong with rolling a new character, if the current one is unplayable?

Nothing at all. It's more a matter of if the party has a fundamental difference of opinion on this and cannot reasonably work together in the future, who rerolls?

You probably should have a long think about what and why.

'This coin leads to corruption.' Okay. You don't have to tell the players. But you should definitely know what that means.
- Does it mean that the player will be corrupted? If so, how?
- Is it a tool for a ritual? If so, what?
- Is it a magical item? If so, what does it do.
- Is it sentient? Can it protect itself? How?

I feel like this is something you should have thought about long before now. One of the Archdevils or Demon Lords is my goto:
- Fierna, Geryon, Mammon, Glasya
- Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb...Something

As above, they take over the one who possesses it. They cannot do anything but whisper, unless the possessor chooses to use their power. So the player is corrupted by giving power to the evil entity in exchange for help in various situations. The player in particular has done things like use its power to get a better familiar, as well as cast some spells like hellish rebuke when they got hit in a fight. So it is sentient, and is basically the power of a warlock at whatever level it has unlocked, completely under the control of the owner until it overpowers them.

One of them works. The coins are all about creating a Leader, right? To do what?

Originally, the coins trapped the spirits of some very powerful bad guys. This one in particular was basically a lvl 20 warlock. They were trapped in the coins, and the leader from the previous war kept all of them, and was able to draw upon their power in his battles. So the original purpose was so that the Deities of Evil could break the world, and then fight each ther to see who got to remake the world in their image.

And they had no plan of what to do if they were ever discovered? Seems extremely flawed.

No argument out of me on that. Their mentor had a plan, which was to have another member of his circle follow her, and help out if needed. That's why there is someone there to help break her out.

Why are the coins bad?
What is so bad about having one of the coins?

I feel as though if the Cursed Coin was going to do anything, it should do the thing, now. It wants to be with the Wizard - for reasons - and it will attempt to do get back to the Wizard. It immediately starts creating Thralls, with the intent of returning to the Wizard, and/or getting the Wizard out of prison. Whatever '1 of 20 coins used to create armies of the damned' means, it starts doing that. The town graveyard starts spawning zombies and skeletons. High-ranking nobles buried in crypts and mausoleums start turning to Ghouls. Whatever. Doesn't matter. It's the coin that's doing it. Through this, the Wizard should engineer themselves a way out of prison. Perhaps even a prison riot.

At the end of it, when the Wizard gets a hold of the coin, the whole thing stops. It's back where it wants to be. For whatever reason you can come up with. The coin is not safe in anyone's hands, save the Wizard's - or another, suitably powerful, corruptible bearer. At this point the coin - and all the other coins - need to be destroyed. This should set the party on a quest to collect and/or destroy the other coins.

Meanwhile...Getting into close proximity with each other is exactly what the Coin(s) want. It's all part of the plan. After all, if each Coin is with a suitably powerful bearer...Then each subsequent bearer that kills another must be even more powerful...Good. Gooood. Until one person has all 20 Coins, and becomes Queen Leader of the Damned.

The Coins don't 'create' the Leader... The Leader is the one who has all the Coins. This, likewise, will cause 'those in the know' to try and remove the Coin from the Wizard's possession. Maybe not someone in the Church, but definitely someone in the Keep maybe already has one of the Coins, and is trying to have two...Dun Dun Duuun. Corruption, follows the coins, after all. It doesn't cause corruption, it causes those who are corrupt, to come after it.

Spoiler just to reduce the room this comment is taking:

Spoiler: Motivation and location of coins

Show

Each coin would want to completely take over a person, and then get other coins and dominate them. So they are all out for themselves. The ideal for any given coin would be to be taken up by a level 20 equivalent being (there aren't many in the world, so that's a difficult proposition), used until they are able to take over the body, then get more coins and add to their own power. If anyone got all the coins, it would probably but not definitely mean the first coin would be in control of all their power. They would most certainly be the most powerful being on the face of the planet. Last time, to win, ten clerics and ten paladins of the good Deities sacrificed themselves to create a being who could stand against it.

The people who are holding the wizard know all of this history, as they are part of the city that finally stopped the Leader. They absolutely want to collect all of the coins and hide them away. Unknown to the players, they actually have three of the coins locked in a vault. One of the other coins is locked away by the wizard's mentor. The mentor believes they could use the coins to prevent another breaking, but is probably deluding themselves, and is a good candidate for getting all of the coins and becoming the new leader. One of the coins has elevated a former small time gang leader into the ruler of the criminal underworld in one area of the world. The others are scattered about, available to be found, and are a huge part of the plan for the characters in third tier play.

Spoiler: Corruption

Show

This hits on what Man_over_game was asking. "Corruption" was a very specific term. If anyone has read the Weis and Hickman "Rose of the Prophet" series, they would recognize how I created the Deities of the world. Think of a 24-sided polyhedron - a cube with a pyramid on each face. The tops of the pyramid are good/evil, law/chaos, and civilization/nature. The other points, which would be the corners of the cube, are other attributes. The avatar of Lust ended up being summoned to the world, and they had to race to deal with it before it was able to amass all of its power. They killed it, which has allowed for other possibilities of an attribute for that point to come into play. Their long time enemy has been able to gather power in an attempt to become the avatar of corruption. That's who was following them. The players were aware of this, but either forgot or did a fine job of not metagaming that knowledge to realize they it was back to interfere with them again. So we have both a rising power called "Corruption", and an object that corrupts.

So, really, they did get what you mentioned. They thought the coin was the corruption, but it was the demon following them. And there's even a catastrophe, as what the demon did was cast dispell magic on the dragon that was protecting the city, turning it back into a kobold (it had been true polymorphed into a wyrmling before the last breaking, and had forgotten its origins). Perfect opportunity for an evil dragon to come in. And now that I type that, it's going to happen!

Sorry, that was awfully long. I appreciate all of the responses. I have an agent of one of the evil deities who could easily fill in as the lawyer, so I'll put him in place. I'll still let them find an overworked lawyer that isn't a demon, so they can make a better choice. I am prepared to bring in some evil dragons to attack the city, to give them something to join forces against. A lot depends on which way the players go, and they often come up with things I don't expect, but I think we'll make it out of this without destroying the party.

ETA - I am so slow, more comments came while I was typing that. I love the creative ideas you guys come up with - the coins being a trap for evil people is lots of fun. MaxWilson, they will have the opportunity to join, and I have no idea how that will play out. Segev, the wizard and I had a plan worked out for a downtime quest just for them, where they discover a way to suborn the coin to her will. It would require some serious use of all of her magic, and should have been about a 50/50 shot of either coming out ahead. Had she won, she'd have had a caster sidekick that did whatever she wanted. Had she lost, the coin would take over, and we'd have to decide if she was going to go off and be a new bad guy for the group, or if she would attempt to stay with the group as a new personality for a bit before she was found out.

[Battlebooze]

Ah, the coins are blatantly evil and have already proven that in game, so there isn't much wiggle room to change things up.


Well, that Wizard character is boned and probably deserves it. I mean, it's not like the player couldn't see this mess coming for them a mile away. You're a very nice GM to try to give them a way out, I'll say that. I think this would be the point where I'd tell them Roll 4d6 and drop the lowest number.

[Sorinth]

I see that I did not provide enough information, since almost everyone thinks the cursed coin is not her fault. The coins are based on the denarii from the Dresden Files. If you touch one, you get the voice in your head, trying to talk you into giving it power. It acts as a level 1 character, and there is a 10% it levels up each time it is used. If it meets the level of the coin holder, it takes over. The wizard has been using it, and it is level 5. The reason the rest of the party knows about it is finally she did a few too many things that didn't make sense, and they got it out of her. She is hoping to bend it to her will, and use its power. I'm OK with this, and have designed an adventure for her during down time that would give her about 50/50 shot of winning or falling to the coin. She has absolutely been giving evil power of her own free will.

I'm going to answer Cheesegear, since I think they asked all the questions everyone else hit.



Nothing at all. It's more a matter of if the party has a fundamental difference of opinion on this and cannot reasonably work together in the future, who rerolls?



As above, they take over the one who possesses it. They cannot do anything but whisper, unless the possessor chooses to use their power. So the player is corrupted by giving power to the evil entity in exchange for help in various situations. The player in particular has done things like use its power to get a better familiar, as well as cast some spells like hellish rebuke when they got hit in a fight. So it is sentient, and is basically the power of a warlock at whatever level it has unlocked, completely under the control of the owner until it overpowers them.



Originally, the coins trapped the spirits of some very powerful bad guys. This one in particular was basically a lvl 20 warlock. They were trapped in the coins, and the leader from the previous war kept all of them, and was able to draw upon their power in his battles. So the original purpose was so that the Deities of Evil could break the world, and then fight each ther to see who got to remake the world in their image.



No argument out of me on that. Their mentor had a plan, which was to have another member of his circle follow her, and help out if needed. That's why there is someone there to help break her out.



Spoiler just to reduce the room this comment is taking:

Spoiler: Motivation and location of coins

Show

Each coin would want to completely take over a person, and then get other coins and dominate them. So they are all out for themselves. The ideal for any given coin would be to be taken up by a level 20 equivalent being (there aren't many in the world, so that's a difficult proposition), used until they are able to take over the body, then get more coins and add to their own power. If anyone got all the coins, it would probably but not definitely mean the first coin would be in control of all their power. They would most certainly be the most powerful being on the face of the planet. Last time, to win, ten clerics and ten paladins of the good Deities sacrificed themselves to create a being who could stand against it.

The people who are holding the wizard know all of this history, as they are part of the city that finally stopped the Leader. They absolutely want to collect all of the coins and hide them away. Unknown to the players, they actually have three of the coins locked in a vault. One of the other coins is locked away by the wizard's mentor. The mentor believes they could use the coins to prevent another breaking, but is probably deluding themselves, and is a good candidate for getting all of the coins and becoming the new leader. One of the coins has elevated a former small time gang leader into the ruler of the criminal underworld in one area of the world. The others are scattered about, available to be found, and are a huge part of the plan for the characters in third tier play.

Spoiler: Corruption

Show

This hits on what Man_over_game was asking. "Corruption" was a very specific term. If anyone has read the Weis and Hickman "Rose of the Prophet" series, they would recognize how I created the Deities of the world. Think of a 24-sided polyhedron - a cube with a pyramid on each face. The tops of the pyramid are good/evil, law/chaos, and civilization/nature. The other points, which would be the corners of the cube, are other attributes. The avatar of Lust ended up being summoned to the world, and they had to race to deal with it before it was able to amass all of its power. They killed it, which has allowed for other possibilities of an attribute for that point to come into play. Their long time enemy has been able to gather power in an attempt to become the avatar of corruption. That's who was following them. The players were aware of this, but either forgot or did a fine job of not metagaming that knowledge to realize they it was back to interfere with them again. So we have both a rising power called "Corruption", and an object that corrupts.

So, really, they did get what you mentioned. They thought the coin was the corruption, but it was the demon following them. And there's even a catastrophe, as what the demon did was cast dispell magic on the dragon that was protecting the city, turning it back into a kobold (it had been true polymorphed into a wyrmling before the last breaking, and had forgotten its origins). Perfect opportunity for an evil dragon to come in. And now that I type that, it's going to happen!

Sorry, that was awfully long. I appreciate all of the responses. I have an agent of one of the evil deities who could easily fill in as the lawyer, so I'll put him in place. I'll still let them find an overworked lawyer that isn't a demon, so they can make a better choice. I am prepared to bring in some evil dragons to attack the city, to give them something to join forces against. A lot depends on which way the players go, and they often come up with things I don't expect, but I think we'll make it out of this without destroying the party.

It doesn't sounds like the wizard character has actually done anything evil, and I have a hard time believing a truly good society would imprison someone just for possessing the coin. Unless they think the wizard is already possessed I don't see why they wouldn't simply take the coin and let the player off, especially since the paladin is vouching for them and has some pull.

If there "needs" to be some punishment/atonement from the player then one option is to have the city give the party a quest and the player/party is effectively exiled/banished until they complete the quest (Possibly under a Geas spell). Regardless they are keeping the coin.


And to answer who rolls up new characters when the group splits, it's up to the players at the table.

[Darth Credence]

It doesn't sounds like the wizard character has actually done anything evil, and I have a hard time believing a truly good society would imprison someone just for possessing the coin. Unless they think the wizard is already possessed I don't see why they wouldn't simply take the coin and let the player off, especially since the paladin is vouching for them and has some pull.

If there "needs" to be some punishment/atonement from the player then one option is to have the city give the party a quest and the player/party is effectively exiled/banished until they complete the quest (Possibly under a Geas spell). Regardless they are keeping the coin.


And to answer who rolls up new characters when the group splits, it's up to the players at the table.

They absolutely would just take the coin, do a ritual to break the bond with the person, and send them on their way. Wouldn't even require a bit of atonement. The wizard doesn't want to give it up.

[ecarden]

They absolutely would just take the coin, do a ritual to break the bond with the person, and send them on their way. Wouldn't even require a bit of atonement. The wizard doesn't want to give it up.

I mean, if they can identify the coin, I'm not sure why the wizard would get a vote. 'We're taking this incredibly dangerous artifact that can take over your mind and body off you for the good of the planet,' is a perfectly reasonable position for a bunch of good clerics to take. From their perspective this sounds more like 'baby with a handgun' then 'let's have a trial.'

[Sorinth]

They absolutely would just take the coin, do a ritual to break the bond with the person, and send them on their way. Wouldn't even require a bit of atonement. The wizard doesn't want to give it up.

So what are you asking? It should go down just as you say, they take and keep the coin, break the bond and send the wizard on their way. What happens after that is up to the players, maybe they'll try to steal it back, or pull some switcheroo to not lose it but it's not on you the DM to provide a way for the player to keep the coin. All you have to do is adjudicate what happens based on the actions of the player. So if they have a way to fake the coin let them present that plan to you and then determine if it succeeds, if they don't have a plan well they'll move on.

About the only thing I would suggest is to maybe have the ritual to break the bond take a few days to gather everything needed to perform the ritual. That gives the players time to come up and do something if they really want to, if they don't have a plan you just fast forward like 2 days. But honestly sounds like the player will likely say easy come easy go and just move on. Sure they want the coin but so what, if they really want it they'll try to steal it back, so if not planned out already maybe figure out how they store/protect the coins so that you are prepared a bit for that.

[Corran]

The PCs make it back to town in the middle of the night, and want to immediately go into the city to tell the higher ups at the temple. The guards at the gate tell them to come back in the morning. They demand to be let in immediately, and based on the level of the paladin and his connection to the city, they eventually let them in, although just into the gatehouse until someone with more authority can be summoned. They get a captain who knows them, they say it is urgent as there are evil creatures on the mountain and they have to report.

Bureaucracy makes the game world a better place. Nice touch.

The paladin said that one of his companions had a cursed coin that lead to corruption and so they thought it was just that.

Snitch...

OK, so the higher ups ask who has the coin. No one will tell them. Even the person who had told the existence of the coin, now refuses to say who has it. Guards come in, and they bring in a cleric to cast zone of truth.

''I am Spartacus.''
''No! I am Spartacus.''
*casts zone of truth*
''He is Spartacus!''

And that's where we ended it. I have three ways in my head to resolve this. Have a trial

Trials can be lots of fun. Played a few such sessions. Best one? The one where we brought 3 non-dnd friends to play the judges. You need the right people for that I would imagine (someone with knowledge of the law, or at the very least someone with a deep appreciation for trial movies/series), but be careful because the concept of metagaming might be lost on people who roleplay for the first time, so better give them only character knowledge and let the info slowly add up through the testimonies. Biggest winner here imo? The DM. You are heading into a session that you have no idea what's about to happen and you deliberately made it so that it's out of your hands. Sit back, relax, roleplay your bits and enjoy watching how things will unfold. But it's good for the platers too. The one time guest star players who probably dont even know how much attached players can be on their precious characters, will be far more interested serving their role (and consequently justice) than sparing your made up character. Danger is real, and you might end up having to talk your way out of it (or scheme, or bribe, or whatever). Something that doesn't happen that often IME, so a nice change of pace from having only deadly encounters and the occassional stupid decision to threaten your pc.

So yeah, if you can think of one or more people who can make a guest appearrance and play the judge(s) well enough, I wholeheartidly suggest you try something like this.

...and have her released into the custody of the paladin.

This might be a good idea. Or it might not. Dont know enough of your campaign to figure out if it makes sense and what additional questions this options raises. If there is an NPC who has a say in what's to happen, who would have a good reason to consider this a good idea, then maybe I would have the NPC say something, or even try to make things go in that direction (depending on how much they would want this result). Otherwise I'd worry more about having an outcome that makes sense than keeping a character around. But you know your table better obviously.

The wizard's mentor has a group of people working for him, and is teleporting a thief team in to break the wizard out.

The best NPC rescue teams are the ones that enable the pc's to attempt their escape (while maybe providing help along the way). If only one pc needs rescuing, you can just give control of the npc recue team (assuming the actual pcs cannot or will not attempt this) to your other players and prepare for a break out of prison style session. Meaning, if there is to be an escape, try to make them earn it (or at least allow the feeling that it was earned). Unless the mentor really wants the wizard out/ the coin back. In that case reality kicks in and your player is left with little choice (in this case you are literaly being handed the solution) as a result of the position they found themselves in.

That seems the most likely path they will take, but the group will be split. My favorite method is the strike team forges the coin, goes in, casts magic aura on it to make it seem real, and swaps it out, then the wizard turns over the coin and leaves to be cured of the curse by her own Deity. This could allow for her to hide the coin from the party again, and everyone could be together. I have no idea how likely this is for them to go for - I don't know if there is even a chance they think of it.

This is not meant to sound harsh. These are things your players should be thinking. I dont necessarily mean this specific idea, but generally how to solve this situation. If you provide the solution there is not much left for them to do, other than maybe follow it in a good case scenario; or just watch it happen without doing anything, in a bad case scenario. Unless you have very good reasons from an in-game world perspective (ie an NPC simply has to step in and do their thing), let them figure things out. You still need to have the world react to what's going to happen (which could mean trying to think ahead of possible outcomes so that you can be more prepared). But generally dont be a player when you are being the DM.

The paladin wanted to know if the church is corrupt... I let him know they are not

Always leave them wondering. It actually makes a better experience for the player. Well, for some players.




I vote the trial option, because I am biased on this one. If you run the judge(s), then the best thing you can do imo is to figure out some personalities for them. And let things play out. Allow your players the room to surprise you.

[Lunali]

OK, so the higher ups ask who has the coin. No one will tell them. Even the person who had told the existence of the coin, now refuses to say who has it. Guards come in, and they bring in a cleric to cast zone of truth. We have established that we run ZoT by having a saving throw for each question, and the caster knows if they passed. Well, eventually they figure out that the wizard has it, and arrest her. It was a little iffy for a bit as to whether they would fight, but when I said "are you surrendering, or are we rolling initiative?", she surrendered. They claimed that this group of good people are not being good by arresting her, which I disagree with, but they can think what they wish, I guess. They put her in a comfortable cell, left her with gloves locked on that would prevent her from doing somatic components but not harm her, and put all of her equipment in a locked chest outside of the cell, not even searching it until a judge could be called in.

That is an entirely reasonable way to run ZoT, but why did anyone answer questions?

I typically run it by having the characters make whatever statements they like, but whenever they lie they have to roll a save to see if that six seconds was affected by the ZoT or not. However, nothing about the spell compels people to answer questions and if they weren't answering questions without it, they certainly shouldn't answer questions with it.

And that's where we ended it. I have three ways in my head to resolve this. Have a trial, and have her released into the custody of the paladin. That seems the most likely to keep the group together, but least likely for them to go for. The wizard's mentor has a group of people working for him, and is teleporting a thief team in to break the wizard out. That seems the most likely path they will take, but the group will be split. My favorite method is the strike team forges the coin, goes in, casts magic aura on it to make it seem real, and swaps it out, then the wizard turns over the coin and leaves to be cured of the curse by her own Deity. This could allow for her to hide the coin from the party again, and everyone could be together. I have no idea how likely this is for them to go for - I don't know if there is even a chance they think of it.

What is the actual crime the wizard would be charged with? Possessing an evil item, or even being evil is not a crime in most societies. In fact, people being evil is typically a basic assumption when people are writing laws. If it does go to trial, is magically compelled evidence admissible? If so, who's to say that the caster isn't the culprit?

In all honesty, for me, all of this is secondary. The real question is who has the coin now?

[Segev]

It seems to me that the Good Guy Clergy Government would just break the curse (whether she wants it broken or not), then let her go with a warning. They'd have a low opinion of her for working with it willingly, but wouldn't do anything to her beyond taking it if she didn't do anything specifically illegal/evil that they know of. If she tries to get it back, they would lock her up for the same reason they'd lock anybody who tried to steal dangerous artifacts from their care up.

This is kind-of boring if the PCs don't make their own excitement, but it's reasonable. She'll probably want it back. Which will create complications.

[MaxWilson]

What is the actual crime the wizard would be charged with? Possessing an evil item, or even being evil is not a crime in most societies.

Why wouldn't society outlaw possession of dangerous items, for the same reason society outlaws possession of unlicensed nuclear accelerators? (H/t Ghostbusters.)

[Lunali]

Why wouldn't society outlaw possession of dangerous items, for the same reason society outlaws possession of unlicensed nuclear accelerators? (H/t Ghostbusters.)

A society might outlaw possession of dangerous items, but there are a lot of dangerous items, where do you draw the line? Should you also outlaw something like a wand of fireballs? If cities typically have varying laws on which magical items are legal or illegal, traveling between them will soon become complicated for anyone that starts collecting them.

[Catullus64]

So... can I ask what the actual crime committed here was? (Not being facetious, just curious). Presumably having-of-cursed-coins isn't a statutory offense, but rather possession of the coin is being taken as evidence of something deeper, like heresy or conspiracy to commit army-of-the-damned raising. If modern evidentiary standards are in play (far from likely, but it's a starting point), it would need to be proven not only that the Wizard was committing some great sacrilege or crime, but that he/she was aware that's what was being done. At the very least, ignorance might be grounds for a lighter sentence, if the crime is possession-of-evil-coins, but not possession with intent.

As for the sentence... is this a captial crime? Or is it the sort of thing where you can get away with having your tongue pulled out or your hands chopped off? Either of those can get the Wizard released and back in the party, if not entirely in one piece.*

*Please consult with your players before permanently dismembering their characters. Unless it's really funny. And even then, give them a saving throw.

[Unoriginal]

A society might outlaw possession of dangerous items, but there are a lot of dangerous items, where do you draw the line? Should you also outlaw something like a wand of fireballs?

Many governments would agree that you at least need a license to carry a weapon capable of annihilating a dozen person with each use, yes.

If cities typically have varying laws on which magical items are legal or illegal, traveling between them will soon become complicated for anyone that starts collecting them.

And most cities would probably say that it is worth the inconvenience.

[Cheesegear]

A society might outlaw possession of dangerous items, but there are a lot of dangerous items, where do you draw the line?

I once had a city that outlawed the open carrying of martial weapons. On the grounds of 'What the **** do you need that for!?'
This forced my players to switch up their tactics. Specifically the PAM Fighter.

Walking around with weapons is kind of a big deal that we never, ever think about. IIRC, sword licenses existed in the real world at some point. I also feel like I have to point out every now and then that a Greatsword is 50gp, representing someone's entire living expenses for a little less than two months. Weapons are a big deal. Magic Items are an even bigger deal. You can draw the line wherever you want.

[Lunali]

And most cities would probably say that it is worth the inconvenience.

The cities probably would, they're not being inconvenienced. The people being inconvenienced are the very wealthy adventurers that are typically more free with their money than other wealthy individuals and who typically have little problem going somewhere else instead.

[Unoriginal]

The cities probably would, they're not being inconvenienced. The people being inconvenienced are the very wealthy adventurers that are typically more free with their money than other wealthy individuals and who typically have little problem going somewhere else instead.

Typically, that leads to either the city establishing some kind of license the adventurers need for their big dangerous weapons (and need to pay to have, of course), or the city not minding losing some money if it means enforcing those safety-providing laws, but businesses who want to make it easy for adventurers to spend their coins will simply be outside the city's limits.

Keep in mind a place like Waterdeep doesn't even let magic users into its walls without registering them.

[Darth Credence]

A note - detained would probably be a better word than arrested. At this point, she is under suspicion of possession of a WMD equivalent - this doesn't mean she faces any punishment, just that they do not want to allow the coin to remain in the hands of anyone other than themselves.

I mean, if they can identify the coin, I'm not sure why the wizard would get a vote. 'We're taking this incredibly dangerous artifact that can take over your mind and body off you for the good of the planet,' is a perfectly reasonable position for a bunch of good clerics to take. From their perspective this sounds more like 'baby with a handgun' then 'let's have a trial.'

So what are you asking? It should go down just as you say, they take and keep the coin, break the bond and send the wizard on their way. What happens after that is up to the players, maybe they'll try to steal it back, or pull some switcheroo to not lose it but it's not on you the DM to provide a way for the player to keep the coin. All you have to do is adjudicate what happens based on the actions of the player. So if they have a way to fake the coin let them present that plan to you and then determine if it succeeds, if they don't have a plan well they'll move on.

About the only thing I would suggest is to maybe have the ritual to break the bond take a few days to gather everything needed to perform the ritual. That gives the players time to come up and do something if they really want to, if they don't have a plan you just fast forward like 2 days. But honestly sounds like the player will likely say easy come easy go and just move on. Sure they want the coin but so what, if they really want it they'll try to steal it back, so if not planned out already maybe figure out how they store/protect the coins so that you are prepared a bit for that.

That's where it would be leading. I mentioned that the wizard doesn't want to give it up as an answer to why this is an issue at all.

Trials can be lots of fun. Played a few such sessions. Best one? The one where we brought 3 non-dnd friends to play the judges. You need the right people for that I would imagine (someone with knowledge of the law, or at the very least someone with a deep appreciation for trial movies/series), but be careful because the concept of metagaming might be lost on people who roleplay for the first time, so better give them only character knowledge and let the info slowly add up through the testimonies. Biggest winner here imo? The DM. You are heading into a session that you have no idea what's about to happen and you deliberately made it so that it's out of your hands. Sit back, relax, roleplay your bits and enjoy watching how things will unfold. But it's good for the platers too. The one time guest star players who probably dont even know how much attached players can be on their precious characters, will be far more interested serving their role (and consequently justice) than sparing your made up character. Danger is real, and you might end up having to talk your way out of it (or scheme, or bribe, or whatever). Something that doesn't happen that often IME, so a nice change of pace from having only deadly encounters and the occassional stupid decision to threaten your pc.

So yeah, if you can think of one or more people who can make a guest appearrance and play the judge(s) well enough, I wholeheartidly suggest you try something like this.

That sounds like fun. I'll have to check with my lawyer friend to see if he could make a Zoom call.

This might be a good idea. Or it might not. Dont know enough of your campaign to figure out if it makes sense and what additional questions this options raises. If there is an NPC who has a say in what's to happen, who would have a good reason to consider this a good idea, then maybe I would have the NPC say something, or even try to make things go in that direction (depending on how much they would want this result). Otherwise I'd worry more about having an outcome that makes sense than keeping a character around. But you know your table better obviously.

The paladin and wizard were childhood friends. The wizard is a bit upset at the paladin being a snitch, but that should blow over.

The best NPC rescue teams are the ones that enable the pc's to attempt their escape (while maybe providing help along the way). If only one pc needs rescuing, you can just give control of the npc recue team (assuming the actual pcs cannot or will not attempt this) to your other players and prepare for a break out of prison style session. Meaning, if there is to be an escape, try to make them earn it (or at least allow the feeling that it was earned). Unless the mentor really wants the wizard out/ the coin back. In that case reality kicks in and your player is left with little choice (in this case you are literaly being handed the solution) as a result of the position they found themselves in.

The players would absolutely control those characters. Two of the four are characters that they have controlled in the past, when we have done side one shots set in the same world, and they have met the other two.

This is not meant to sound harsh. These are things your players should be thinking. I dont necessarily mean this specific idea, but generally how to solve this situation. If you provide the solution there is not much left for them to do, other than maybe follow it in a good case scenario; or just watch it happen without doing anything, in a bad case scenario. Unless you have very good reasons from an in-game world perspective (ie an NPC simply has to step in and do their thing), let them figure things out. You still need to have the world react to what's going to happen (which could mean trying to think ahead of possible outcomes so that you can be more prepared). But generally dont be a player when you are being the DM.

I agree. I have no intention of giving them any solution, other than the mentor has sent a strike team that they will be allowed to control. One member of that team has everything needed to forge the coin, including the spells, but I won't tell them that is a possibility. That's what I meant by I have no idea if they will even think of it. I imagine that they will come up with something that I have not thought of, because that's generally what they do.

Always leave them wondering. It actually makes a better experience for the player. Well, for some players.

In this case, I was more thinking I was clarifying what was going on. I absolutely never intended to give the impression that the people here were corrupt, and I wanted to clear up whatever I had done to give that impression.

That is an entirely reasonable way to run ZoT, but why did anyone answer questions?

I typically run it by having the characters make whatever statements they like, but whenever they lie they have to roll a save to see if that six seconds was affected by the ZoT or not. However, nothing about the spell compels people to answer questions and if they weren't answering questions without it, they certainly shouldn't answer questions with it.

I have no idea why they were answering questions. But the church people were going to ask, and they kept answering, until the wizard stopped because she knew eventually she'd be found out.

What is the actual crime the wizard would be charged with? Possessing an evil item, or even being evil is not a crime in most societies. In fact, people being evil is typically a basic assumption when people are writing laws. If it does go to trial, is magically compelled evidence admissible? If so, who's to say that the caster isn't the culprit?

In all honesty, for me, all of this is secondary. The real question is who has the coin now?

Possession of these particular coins is specifically mentioned in the cities laws. The nuclear accelerator quote someone said is right on track - the coins are illegal to possess because of their extreme danger to people around them, and so they are required to be turned over to the temple for safekeeping.

It would only go to trial if she refuses to hand over the coin. If it does, it would depend on how good a lawyer they get, and they will have choices. Appointed, and they will get steamrolled. Expensive lawyer, and they can probably find a way to establish there is no proof that she has a coin, since the party members have never actually seen it, just the effects, which could be from multiclassing. Good lawyer that is pro bono is going to be a devil helping them (thanks for that idea!). Cheap lawyer would be Saul Goodman, and I have no idea where I would go with that, but it would be tons of fun. As to where the coin is now - the wizard's arcane locked handy haversack.

It seems to me that the Good Guy Clergy Government would just break the curse (whether she wants it broken or not), then let her go with a warning. They'd have a low opinion of her for working with it willingly, but wouldn't do anything to her beyond taking it if she didn't do anything specifically illegal/evil that they know of. If she tries to get it back, they would lock her up for the same reason they'd lock anybody who tried to steal dangerous artifacts from their care up.

This is kind-of boring if the PCs don't make their own excitement, but it's reasonable. She'll probably want it back. Which will create complications.

This is exactly what they would intend. As of right now, though, they cannot prove she has the coin, so they need to establish that and get it in order to remove the curse.

So... can I ask what the actual crime committed here was? (Not being facetious, just curious). Presumably having-of-cursed-coins isn't a statutory offense, but rather possession of the coin is being taken as evidence of something deeper, like heresy or conspiracy to commit army-of-the-damned raising. If modern evidentiary standards are in play (far from likely, but it's a starting point), it would need to be proven not only that the Wizard was committing some great sacrilege or crime, but that he/she was aware that's what was being done. At the very least, ignorance might be grounds for a lighter sentence, if the crime is possession-of-evil-coins, but not possession with intent.

As for the sentence... is this a captial crime? Or is it the sort of thing where you can get away with having your tongue pulled out or your hands chopped off? Either of those can get the Wizard released and back in the party, if not entirely in one piece.*

*Please consult with your players before permanently dismembering their characters. Unless it's really funny. And even then, give them a saving throw.

It would not end up being a crime, if she turned over the coin. They are not seeking any punishment, just removing the coin from circulation. But she wants the coin for her own purposes, as does her mentor.