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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Chugger View Post
    Hey, guide writer - why did you make a multi into Sorc only blue - and only cleric sorc sky blue. I think you grasp the conquest stuff very well (and thank you for the guide), but I do think you're misleading people by suggesting a multi into sorc is that crappy (only blue). It's really very much sky blue - maybe gold, if you know how to max it.

    First, a draconic sorc multi gives you +1 hp to sorc lvls, meaning your base hp per level is 5 - that's only one lower than a base level for pal, which is six, so it's not as weak as you're suggesting. And it's very easy to get fire or some other elemental resistance. And you get metamagic and increase your slots, meaning you can DS like a crazy fool - and pump out insane single target damage. And you got sorc spells, which can be very handy. You can also shield or absorb elements on any turn - insane. So many overlook absorb element. Just look at that main sorcadin link that lives here in this forum (unlimited bladeworks or something, it's called) - it's in the guides. Give that a look and please tell me all sorc should not be sky blue at the very least!
    Well, my standard for blue is "Very useful. This will serve you well in most scenarios," so I don't think there's any way to read my rating as suggesting that multiclassing into sorcerer is "crappy." I think Sorcerer is a great option for multiclassing. And I agree with you that Sorcadin is an extremely powerful multiclass (we've read the same guide). Prior to the release of Hexblade, it was arguably the most powerful multiclass. But my reasoning is that this isn't a general paladin guide. It's specifically for the Oath of Conquest, which is an offensive tanking subclass. I think Sorcerer levels can absolutely help with that—heck, they'll do a great job if you know what you're doing. But sorcerer HP comes on a d6, as opposed to the d8 of warlock or d10 of fighter. Levels in sorcerer can be a lot of fun, but too many and you're trading your ability to take hits, which is your job. Draconic Sorcerer will get you the same HP/level as a warlock, but none of the other origins do. 4-6 levels is probably the most you can do, and 6 levels into sorcerer isn't worth it, in my opinion. All the best 3rd-level sorcerer spells either take concentration or are for back line damage-dealers, and you want to be concentrating on frightening enemies. 5 or 6 levels also costs you an ASI.

    Sorcerer is a great multiclass and gives you a lot of options. I'm all for it. I just don't think it's exceptional, and I don't think it offers as much synergy with the Oath of Conquest as fighter or warlock.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    That's a good point, and crappy was a poor choice of words on my part.

    And yes, hexblade has changed everything - can't possibly disagree w/ you there.

    And if sorc is not a sky blue option w/ _conquest_ - well you'd know more than I would. I'm taking it that you're seeing conquest as more an amazing control-tank (with a very cool, strange and new control feature). And the sorcadin - at least the pre-x form - is more a striker with weird casting flexibility - if it controls it's because it casts a wall or a hyp pattern or w/e. I'd still say that being able to pump lots of high-voltage DS's into targets works with Conq/sor - but if you think that's only blue, maybe it is. I haven't had a chance to run one of these yet. Thanks again for the guide. I'm sorry if earlier I didn't say that - these things take a lot of work, and we should always show respect for that!

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Fantastic guide! I'd been mulling over how to maximize the fear potential of this Oath, but you went ahead and crunched it all for me, much obliged

    Quote Originally Posted by Legimus View Post
    Working on adding a subsection about a polearm build.
    This is what I'm really interested in! I'm thinking a Dragonborn Paladin 19/Hexblade 1 with 5 ASI's can pick up:
    +2 Cha
    Polearm Master
    Sentinel
    Dragon Fear
    Menacing (UA skill feat)

    And then have 20 Cha, two feats that allow you to frighten people, and two feats that let you stand 10 feet away and hammer enemies without much they can do. A nice package! The biggest question is, they're all so handy, what order to take them in? Decisions, decisons...

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by EdenIndustries View Post
    Fantastic guide! I'd been mulling over how to maximize the fear potential of this Oath, but you went ahead and crunched it all for me, much obliged



    This is what I'm really interested in! I'm thinking a Dragonborn Paladin 19/Hexblade 1 with 5 ASI's can pick up:
    +2 Cha
    Polearm Master
    Sentinel
    Dragon Fear
    Menacing (UA skill feat)

    And then have 20 Cha, two feats that allow you to frighten people, and two feats that let you stand 10 feet away and hammer enemies without much they can do. A nice package! The biggest question is, they're all so handy, what order to take them in? Decisions, decisons...
    Well stay tuned, I'm hoping to have the polearm subsection done soon. And thanks!

    As for the build you're thinking of, you'll need Pact of the Blade (3 levels into warlock) in order for Hex Warrior to apply to two-handed weapons, so I'd recommend a Conqueror 16 / Hexblade 4 build. You lose your 5th-level spells, but you still get all the best Hexblade goodies, two Invocations, and some extra spell slots.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    I like this guide alot. What do you think of a segment for the jurney to level 20. Like important levels and spell selecion along the way. One important thing atleast as far as i'm understanding the oath of conquest is that it doesn't really come online until level 7(can be later if you multiclass). Before level 7 you're just another paladin.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Galactkaktus View Post
    I like this guide alot. What do you think of a segment for the jurney to level 20. Like important levels and spell selecion along the way. One important thing atleast as far as i'm understanding the oath of conquest is that it doesn't really come online until level 7(can be later if you multiclass). Before level 7 you're just another paladin.
    I don't think there's a really clear path to 20 because you're an offensive tank, and what I mean by that is your focus is very much on the environment you find yourself in. In any party, you always have to balance (a) your needs, (b) the party's needs, and (c) the campaign's needs. Different kinds of tanks will find a different balance. As two examples, also out of Xanathar's, the barbarian Ancestral Guardian is primarily focused on mitigating damage to allies, so you'd want to prioritize being responsive to your party's needs in combat. The fighter Cavalier, on the other hand, relies on martial skills to make you a more desirable target than your allies, and that means your own strength and durability take higher priority.

    Contrast these to the Oath of Conquest, whose power comes from being able to control your enemies. You really have to build your paladin in a way that makes sense given the sort of adventure you anticipate finding yourself on. You're right that Conquerors are a little generic before level 7, but I'd argue that most paladin oaths are. Conquering Presence is a potent disable at low levels, even without Aura of Conquest. Because your path to 20 is going to be very responsive to the enemies you're facing, I think the only golden rules I can come up with are:
    • Max out CHA as soon as possible
    • Always have Wrathful Smite prepared.

    Beyond that, I actually think it's pretty up in the air what you need to do. That's actually one of the reason I like this oath so much.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Legimus View Post
    Well stay tuned, I'm hoping to have the polearm subsection done soon. And thanks!

    As for the build you're thinking of, you'll need Pact of the Blade (3 levels into warlock) in order for Hex Warrior to apply to two-handed weapons, so I'd recommend a Conqueror 16 / Hexblade 4 build. You lose your 5th-level spells, but you still get all the best Hexblade goodies, two Invocations, and some extra spell slots.
    Ah you're right, I missed that limitation. That definitely changes things...losing 5th level spells means no Destructive Wave. If you have enemies within your aura frightened (so having a speed of 0) and then you hit them with that and they go prone, they're stuck and can't get up! Granted that does come online very late, though it synergizes wonderfully with the aura extension that you get right afterwards.

    hmm....well I'll be eagerly awaiting your polearm section to help me make my decision

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by EdenIndustries View Post
    Ah you're right, I missed that limitation. That definitely changes things...losing 5th level spells means no Destructive Wave. If you have enemies within your aura frightened (so having a speed of 0) and then you hit them with that and they go prone, they're stuck and can't get up! Granted that does come online very late, though it synergizes wonderfully with the aura extension that you get right afterwards.
    I actually hadn't even thought of that. I completely forgot about the rules for prone. That makes Destructive Wave twice as powerful with this build. Thanks for pointing this out! I've added a note to the spells subsection.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Legimus View Post
    I actually hadn't even thought of that. I completely forgot about the rules for prone. That makes Destructive Wave twice as powerful with this build. Thanks for pointing this out! I've added a note to the spells subsection.
    My pleasure, I'm glad I could make a contribution!

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    If you dip Bard or Sorcerer 1, you get access to Earth Tremor, which is a 10-ft radius knockdown aoe. Pretty nice, especially on top of the other benefits of full caster class dips for a paladin.

    I’m actually considering using this in my build. I’m trying to maximize the fear lockdown aspects of Conquest. While the 30’ radius aura at 18 is amazing, it’s a long slog from L7 to L18 —if I even make it that far. So I’m thinking of taking conquest to 7 or 8, then going full caster class (warlock, sorcerer, bard, or some combination) for more spell slots to power wrathful smite and Fear, plus a few other benefits (earth tremor, shield, absorb elements, bonuses to saves and initiative, etc).

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    I've added a note in Part 1 explaining how the synergy between Aura of Conquest and inflicting prone.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    If you dip Bard or Sorcerer 1, you get access to Earth Tremor, which is a 10-ft radius knockdown aoe. Pretty nice, especially on top of the other benefits of full caster class dips for a paladin.

    I’m actually considering using this in my build. I’m trying to maximize the fear lockdown aspects of Conquest. While the 30’ radius aura at 18 is amazing, it’s a long slog from L7 to L18 —if I even make it that far. So I’m thinking of taking conquest to 7 or 8, then going full caster class (warlock, sorcerer, bard, or some combination) for more spell slots to power wrathful smite and Fear, plus a few other benefits (earth tremor, shield, absorb elements, bonuses to saves and initiative, etc).
    That's a good point. And in fact, I think a College of Glamour Bard could be a great multiclass. You'd get:
    • Earth Tremor at level 1
    • Tasha's Hideous Laughter at level 1
    • Mantle of Majesty at level 6. You can cast Command every turn for a minute as a bonus action! That's crazy. Command explicitly mentions telling an enemy to Grovel (go prone) as one of its options. I feel like this is kind of thematic with Oath of Conquest too. Just walking around demanding people bow at your feet, and still getting to attack on your turn.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by EdenIndustries View Post
    That's a good point. And in fact, I think a College of Glamour Bard could be a great multiclass. You'd get:
    • Earth Tremor at level 1
    • Tasha's Hideous Laughter at level 1
    • Mantle of Majesty at level 6. You can cast Command every turn for a minute as a bonus action! That's crazy. Command explicitly mentions telling an enemy to Grovel (go prone) as one of its options. I feel like this is kind of thematic with Oath of Conquest too. Just walking around demanding people bow at your feet, and still getting to attack on your turn.
    Oh wow. That is amazing.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    With all the comments about prone, I can see some additional synergy with thunderous smite that hasnt been mentioned

    Thunderous smite is a 10ft push and prone, so if the enemy is afraid from the Channel Divinity, you can whack them with Thunderous smite, then chase them 5ft to lock them in your aura.

    The Channel Divinity radius is actually very synergistic. At 30ft range, a melee enemy is prevented from getting any closer to you, but you only have to move 25 ft to get next to them to attack. Use thunderous smite, they are pushed 10 ft away, 15 ft away total. Move those last 5 ft, and they are locked prone in your aura for allies to wail on, or for yourself using a reach weapon

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by GeistInMachine View Post
    With all the comments about prone, I can see some additional synergy with thunderous smite that hasnt been mentioned

    Thunderous smite is a 10ft push and prone, so if the enemy is afraid from the Channel Divinity, you can whack them with Thunderous smite, then chase them 5ft to lock them in your aura.

    The Channel Divinity radius is actually very synergistic. At 30ft range, a melee enemy is prevented from getting any closer to you, but you only have to move 25 ft to get next to them to attack. Use thunderous smite, they are pushed 10 ft away, 15 ft away total. Move those last 5 ft, and they are locked prone in your aura for allies to wail on, or for yourself using a reach weapon
    Nice. So we've got:
    • Thunderous Smite (single-target str save), L1 Paladin spell
    • Earth Tremor (10' aoe dex save), L1 Sorcerer/Bard spell
    • Destructive wave (30' aoe con save), L5 Paladin spell
    • And then of course prone via the Shove attack action (single-target str/dex check) --which is especially nice if you've got Hex (from Warlock dip) and/or Expertise in Athletics (from Bard dip or the Prodigy feat).

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Update: Thanks to the ideas and suggestions of some of your comments, I have added a subsection on building a Conqueror that uses a polearm.
    Last edited by Legimus; 2017-12-05 at 01:35 PM.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Legimus View Post
    Update: Thanks to the ideas and suggestions of some of your comments, I have added a subsection on building a Conqueror that uses a polearm.
    Awesome, thanks! One question though: you mention in that subsection that, "The simplicity of your base strategy opens up a lot of variety. Because of your aura, you don’t have to take Polearm Mastery or even Sentinel to make it work." But to me, if you take those two feats the combo is still much better since you get this flow:

    1. Enemy approaches within 10 feet
    2. Opportunity attack hit with Polearm Master
    3. Their speed drops to 0 from Sentinel
    4. On your turn, fear them.
    5. Now they're stuck at 10 feet away!

    As opposed to:
    1. Enemy approaches within 10 feet and keeps on coming into 5 feet and attacks you.
    2. Next turn, you frighten them and have to move back to 10 feet, drawing an OA as you do so (albeit with disadvantage since they're frightened)
    3. Now you can keep them at bay at 10 feet.

    Especially if you take the Tunnel Fighter fighting style (which, granted, is UA and not printed, and also takes your bonus action unfortunately) you can do that first sequence against any number of enemies.

    So in the first case you take two feats to avoid taking 2 attacks per enemy in the 2nd case. Is it worth it? Well...maybe! If you're controlling lots of enemies, not having to soak 2 attacks per approaching enemy (or more given that higher CR enemies tend to have multiattack) could be significant.
    Last edited by EdenIndustries; 2017-12-05 at 04:35 PM.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Good point! And I agree. I think that for optimal control, you should still take Polearm Mastery and Sentinel. They will make you a better tank. But because you can root them anyways, unlike other polearm builds, their relative value is diminished. That being said, I think it all just goes to show what I initially suspected when I read Xanathar's: the Oath of Conquest opens up a lot of new doors for dynamic and fun tanking. Thanks for spurring me to do more research on this. I'm actually really excited to try a polearm Conqueror now.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Legimus View Post
    Good point! And I agree. I think that for optimal control, you should still take Polearm Mastery and Sentinel. They will make you a better tank. But because you can root them anyways, unlike other polearm builds, their relative value is diminished. That being said, I think it all just goes to show what I initially suspected when I read Xanathar's: the Oath of Conquest opens up a lot of new doors for dynamic and fun tanking. Thanks for spurring me to do more research on this. I'm actually really excited to try a polearm Conqueror now.
    You're welcome! And yeah I'm also very eager at the prospect of playing a polearm Conqueror...I also think it's a fun thematic thing if you have Polearm Master and Sentinel since it's like enemies can't even bear to finish approaching you, they're so terrired and awed in your presence

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Legimus View Post
    Update: Thanks to the ideas and suggestions of some of your comments, I have added a subsection on building a Conqueror that uses a polearm.
    The new section is great, thanks!

    One neat thing about the “freeze em and hit em from 10 feet” strategy, is that it also works with lance (if mounted) and whip.

    They both have their drawbacks of course —lance has problems if you dismount, or have to attack a creature within 5’; and whip has a pitiful damage die. And neither can benefit from PAM or GWM.

    But on the plus side, they both can be used with shields, and they both can be used as charisma weapons for just a 1-level hexblade dip, making them great for SAD builds. (Polearm would require a three hexblade level detour to use with charisma.) And they both also fit the Conquest theme and aesthetics (at least in my head) fairly well.

    I think I’m gonna go whip on my Conquest/Glamour-command build. Kind of a “cruel taskmaster” feel.
    Last edited by Zene; 2017-12-05 at 06:50 PM.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    You keep saying frightened protects your allies from attacks and spells, but the vast majority of spells are saving throws on the part of targeted creature, which frightened does not affect.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    You keep saying frightened protects your allies from attacks and spells, but the vast majority of spells are saving throws on the part of targeted creature, which frightened does not affect.
    True, but there are still lots of spells and abilities that still use attack rolls. And if a creature can cast spells, DMs often have a lot of leeway in deciding what those spells might be. With a quick look through the spells list I can think of a few examples you might face:
    • Fire Bolt
    • Chromatic Orb
    • Ice Knife
    • Ray of Sickness
    • Scorching Ray
    • Vampiric Touch

    They might not be as common as spells that take a saving throw, but there are still plenty of them. It's no Aura of Warding, but it definitely offers an extra layer of protection.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Other than cantrips, there are very, very few spells that use attack rolls. It's a vanishingly small list, and you've included most of them.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Other than cantrips, there are very, very few spells that use attack rolls. It's a vanishingly small list, and you've included most of them.
    Chaos bolt
    Guiding bolt
    Inflict wound
    Witch bolt
    Flame Blade
    Spiritual weapon
    Storm sphere
    Bigby’s hand
    Steel wind strike
    Wall of light
    Crown of stars
    Mordenkainen’s sword

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by EdenIndustries View Post
    Awesome, thanks! One question though: you mention in that subsection that, "The simplicity of your base strategy opens up a lot of variety. Because of your aura, you don’t have to take Polearm Mastery or even Sentinel to make it work." But to me, if you take those two feats the combo is still much better since you get this flow:

    1. Enemy approaches within 10 feet
    2. Opportunity attack hit with Polearm Master
    3. Their speed drops to 0 from Sentinel
    4. On your turn, fear them.
    5. Now they're stuck at 10 feet away!

    As opposed to:
    1. Enemy approaches within 10 feet and keeps on coming into 5 feet and attacks you.
    2. Next turn, you frighten them and have to move back to 10 feet, drawing an OA as you do so (albeit with disadvantage since they're frightened)
    3. Now you can keep them at bay at 10 feet.

    Especially if you take the Tunnel Fighter fighting style (which, granted, is UA and not printed, and also takes your bonus action unfortunately) you can do that first sequence against any number of enemies.

    So in the first case you take two feats to avoid taking 2 attacks per enemy in the 2nd case. Is it worth it? Well...maybe! If you're controlling lots of enemies, not having to soak 2 attacks per approaching enemy (or more given that higher CR enemies tend to have multiattack) could be significant.
    I think RAW reach weapons only get their bonus 5' reach when you attack with them which sadly means that the OA from Polearm Master only works when they get within 5 feet of you.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by D-naras View Post
    I think RAW reach weapons only get their bonus 5' reach when you attack with them which sadly means that the OA from Polearm Master only works when they get within 5 feet of you.
    Aren't you making an attack when you do an opoprtunity ATTACK? Or am i missing something?
    Last edited by Galactkaktus; 2017-12-06 at 03:16 AM.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    What do you lose exactly besides some lay on hands and the capstone if you take the 4 levels of hexblade and 16 of conquest?
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by D-naras View Post
    I think RAW reach weapons only get their bonus 5' reach when you attack with them which sadly means that the OA from Polearm Master only works when they get within 5 feet of you.
    I don't think this is true. Check out this twitter exchange: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...opportunity%2F

    It's a bit hard to follow (and you have to go back a bit to get the full context), but it sure seems like it's saying that Polearm Master lets you have an OA when a creature enters 10 feet (with the exception of Quarterstaff, as Jeremy Crawford notes)

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Bright View Post
    What do you lose exactly besides some lay on hands and the capstone if you take the 4 levels of hexblade and 16 of conquest?
    Larger auras and your 5th-level spells. I think a lot of people underrate just how powerful the bigger auras are. A 10ft range is decent, but in all likelihood is only going to protect you and your front line. Bumping that up to 30ft at level 18 means that your entire party is pretty much always going to be protected. Suddenly everyone has +5 to all saving throws and is immune to fear (so long as you're awake). That's an enormous boon to your party in the late game. For Aura of Conquest, it means that you go from controlling the melee to controlling an entire room. Fear and Conquering Presence have ranges of 30ft, so as soon as you frighten someone you can have them trapped in your web, taking damage and unable to move.

    For the spells, paladins have a terrific arsenal at the 5th level. And because you're a paladin, you learn them all and can pick and choose which ones to prepare based on what you need. Destructive Wave deals tons of damage and knocks a whole room prone, which synergizes great with your aura. Circle of Power, combined with your bigger Aura of Protection, lets your party shrug off even the worst spells. And if you're lacking a cleric or a bard, you're the only one who can cast Raise Dead.

    Overall, I'd say that those last few paladin levels really spike your power level as a tank. I'm in a campaign right now with my Conqueror, and he's only level 8 but I'm planning on taking just a single level in Hexblade because I want to offer that extra control and protection to my party later on. I also like the fantasy of the Oath of Conquest, and I think at high levels it really comes to life and gives you a domineering presence that commands fear and respect. But it all depends on what you want your character to be.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by D-naras View Post
    I think RAW reach weapons only get their bonus 5' reach when you attack with them which sadly means that the OA from Polearm Master only works when they get within 5 feet of you.
    You may be thinking of the Bugbear pc race’s reach feature. That, specifically, only gives reach while attacking on your turn. As far as I know that’s the only instance of reach with that restriction.

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