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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Edit: Btw, I just realized how important aura of courage is for this oath in particular. And you only get it one level after you get fear. Basically, aura of courage pretty much singlehandedly solves the ''friendly fire'' problem of fear. It's like a cost-free careful spell on steroids! This alone makes the sorcerer dip a lot less appealing than what I first thought. Also, lowers the need for a good initiative somewhat, in the hope to cast a fear before my silly allies get in the way. And being only one level away from getting fear, I cannot think of an optimized conquest paladin mc build that focuses on lockdown without at least 10 paladin levels. Heh, I am slowly making progress...
    Thank you so much for your detailed feedback. I'll keep it in mind for the next time I update the guide. You've given me a lot to think about (in a good way), particularly with sorcerer multiclassing. And I'll be honest, the benefits of Aura of Courage seemed pretty marginal to me before you pointed out how it protects against "friendly fire." I definitely plan on including some commentary about that in my next update.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    So, I am currently DMing. My next character will be a conquest paladin multiclass. Our group has a couple house rules that greatly aid this. One, we changed multiclass requirements for paladin to 13 cha and 13 str OR dex. Two, we give a free first level feat out of the racial feats or the UA skill feats. I will go scourge aasimar.

    This means I can start with menacing and with 8 str, 14 dex, 16 con, 8 int, 10 wis, 18 cha. Because I will be going dex, I can start sorcerer for con proficiency and wear medium armor. In half plate with a shield and defense style, I would be at 19 AC. I would go sorc 1, paladin 2, then to sorc 5, then paladin 7. I would take warcaster at sorcerer 4. I would definitely take careful spell. For my second metamagic, either quicken or twin based on the rest of the party composition. Quicken is much better for conquest I know, but the fear aura won't come online for me until character level 12, and I will still have wrathful smite and menacing that don't need quicken.

    So, for the questions. How much is only having 14 in my attack stat really going to hurt me? Do I go +2 dex at pally 4? Or do I splash a level of hexblade at some point and give up sorcerer 13 and 7th level spells to just use charisma? If I splash a level of hexblade (which I think is probably a good idea with this build), when? After 2 pally/5 sorc? After 7 pally/5 sorc?

    Or should I change all this and just go sorc 1 then paladin 7 since I will have 2 other sources of fear without even needing the spell? The fear aura would come online 4 levels sooner, but I would lose out on metamagic and all those extra spell slots.

    For ASIs, with a hexblade splash, it isn't too bad. Warcaster at the first ASI. +2 cha at the second. Probably inspiring leader for the third. Without it, I guess I would just do warcaster, then +2 dex, then +2 cha (unless, ideally, I am still in medium armor with 14 dex but find strength gauntlets or belt then go back to attacking with str).

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    MrWesson22: You are overthinking this. Go up to paladin 10 (str based build, cause conquest needs str a lot more than other oaths; grappling and shoving are forms of control, but more importantly, you don't want to be pushed from the position that allows you maximum control cause of your aura of conquest which has a small radius). Then grab one or two levels in warlock (hexblade preferably), which will give you the equivalent of two feats in hex warrior, a bonus action option that stacks with fear (unlike spiritual weapon), absorb elements (makes up for your weaker dex saves) and a good ranged option in EB (plus some other stuff, for some of which you might prefer getting warcaster instead of resilient con). You take the second warlock level if you want the additional control provided by repelling blast (and agonizing blast is not a bad second option for an invoction). After that, you can pretty much do whatever you want, regarding build progression, but I would say that with fear and wrathful smite covering your concentration so effectively against fear susceptible enemies, higher paladin levels would probably give you the best tools to deal with the fear immune ones (though this is mostly guessing on my part).

    ps: Don't neglect your wisdom saves!
    Last edited by Corran; 2018-08-13 at 11:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Thanks, Corran, but that's not what I was asking. I don't want to play a straight paladin. I want to play a conquest paladin/divine soul sorcerer. Metamagic, cantrips, 4 more spell slots per day (including up to 9th level slots and 7th level spells instead of 5th/5th), and full access to cleric and sorcerer spell lists as well as 1st and 2nd level paladin spells gives a lot more to the playstyle I want than the extra paladin levels. I'll still have aura of protection, so my wisdom saves will still be higher than anyone other than monk, druid, and ranger.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Legimus View Post
    the benefits of Aura of Courage seemed pretty marginal to me before you pointed out how it protects against "friendly fire." I definitely plan on including some commentary about that in my next update.
    With the ''friendly fire'' of fear gone (once aura of courage comes into play), I think that a good case can be made about the fear spell being better than the conquering presence CD. This is because fear does not grant additional saves once it sticks, as conquering presence does. No additional save. No 'spend an action to roll a wisdom check with disadvantage' as wrathful smite does, no save at all. And given that this comes with the added benefit of movement denial (which also means no dodge and not getting up if knocked prone which they resist at disadvantage in the first place), then the 'no save' part is pure gold! You want to get the 'no save' part no matter the price (similarly as an oathbreaker who has the 'no save' part conditionally covered, tries to ensure battlefield control via sentinel and grappler zombies in order to solidify that the enemies wont roll to save against his CD). And what is the price? That you have to boost concentration (which is already a good idea for paladins, particularly if it comes in the form of resilient con which helps a bit with the stats, but even more cause it gives you con save prof). A small price to pay for what the 'no save' does for us (complete lockdown in a 10' radius and movement denial even within it). Someone could say that when we use conquering presence instead of fear, we can use our concentration with something else. Sure, though from the second round of combat that is, as in the first turn you are activating the CD. Opportunity cost, as it's not very optimal to use concentration spells in subsequent rounds (even more so without a concentration boosting feat). But that aside, if enemies can be frightened, fear would be your best use of concentration anyway, with the CD being the backup in case enough enemies made their first and only save against fear. Bottom line, I think you underestimate the 'no save' part a bit. Before I realized what aura of courage did for fear, I was pretty certain that multiclassing in sorcerer for the careful metamagic was the best way to go here; I am saying that to show that that's how important I considered the 'no save' part to be for a melee lockdown build. That's why I use the word 'underestimate'. Now, with the 'friendly fire' gone, since the same effect is accomplished with a sngleclass build, I think there is a good chance that you might see this (ie that fear and not conquering presence is the backbone of our lockdown strategy) the same way too, hence why I am writing this. One last point I would like to mention is that the fact that fear relies on spell slots while the CD is short charge rechargeable is another point in favor of the former IMO, as managing spell slots is easier and relies a lot more on player's agency than 'time within the game world' does.

    Edit: On another note, I am not a big fan of racial fear powers. This is because I think that with wrathful smite, conquering presence and fear, you have what you need (and since conquering presence can backup the fear spell, you don't really need any more). If there were free I would welcome them, but since they compete with stuff like a free feat from variant human (which can be used for resilient/shield master/inspiring leader/lucky/etc), and since they cost an action which complicates even more the crowded action economy of a paladin, they just don't cut it for me.
    Last edited by Corran; 2018-08-15 at 10:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    It's worth noting that aura of courage only extends 10 feet (until level 18), while the widest area of the fear cone will be between 20 and 30 feet away, so it isn't a perfect fix to the friendly fire situation. That said, it's still a much more useful ability for conquest paladins who regularly cast fear than it is for other paladins, where the ability usually only comes into play when enemies use frightening effects, and even then they're already buffing saving throws via aura of protection.

    So it's not that huge, you still have to be careful with Fear placement, and you're still going to end up making trade offs between catching the most enemies in the effect and avoiding catching some allies. Of course, you can follow up with moving into aura range of allies after tagging them, but there will be table variation on whether that nullifies the frighten condition outright or just suppresses it while in the aura.

    Regardless, it's an ability that Multiclass conquerors can afford to delay or even skip if they're getting something particularly nice out of the trade, especially if they have an unusually high dexterity and/or some other initiative buff. But it is a very nice ability for conquerors to have, a real ability for them and not just the ribbon it is for other paladins. The same way that third level paladin spells known are. Between Fear and Aura of Courage, the stretch of levels between their second asi at pal 8 and the impressive dpr boost at pal 11 are much more attractive to Conquerors than they are to other paladins, where those levels constitute a bit of a dead zone driving many paladins of other oaths to multiclass out into warlock, bard, or especially sorcerer and never look back, and that's a patturn we see repeated across the paladin level spectrum. There are several levels or even stretches of levels where conqueror either gets something better than other paladins, or more important than other paladins, or gets something that other paladins also get, but that they're better able to use. This is why, while conqueror multiclasses are certainly possible and viable, there just isn't the same feeling of having to do so if you're trying to optimize as there is for other oaths. Apart from the single level hexblade dip (and even that is debatable, both in terms of when and whether to take it), just a full progression of conqueror levels is every bit as viable if not more so than any multiclass mix.

    A vengeance paladin built primarily for smiting with side orders of tanking, buffing, and healing is just going to be better off multiclassing than taking more paladin levels after a while. You can argue if 'a while' is after level 11 or level 6 or even level 2, but regardless it's well before 19-20. A Conqueror paladin built primarily for tanking and fear based control with side orders of healing, buffing, and smiting just doesn't get better at doing their primary job by multiclassing out. You can get (much) better at your secondary roles, you can get better at alternate forms of tanking or control to use against fearless enemies, but you're not going to get better at the fear-based control tanking that is the build's core identity by diluting your progression with other classes. I mean, a case could be made for a pal7/war5 with short rest Fear slots, but only if your game starts at or above level 12 because otherwise you're delaying access to Fear at all for several levels, and even then you're behind on ASIs, don't have Aura of Courage, etc.

    As I've mentioned before, this could change in the future. Fear is a broad archetype, and it's entirely possible that we might see fear-based builds added to other classes that might become must-have side treks in Conqueror progressions, particularly something like the old Dread Witch that could bypass fear immunity, that could be worth quite a few levels out of a conqueror's progression, even into something as anti-synergistic as wizard. but for now, while there are plenty of attractive multiclass options that let you trade or delay some of your primary role to dramatically improve your secondary capabilities - which can be a totally viable option, there really isn't ever anything better for your main fear-abusing gimmick than just taking more conquest levels.
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    It's worth noting that aura of courage only extends 10 feet (until level 18), while the widest area of the fear cone will be between 20 and 30 feet away, so it isn't a perfect fix to the friendly fire situation. That said, it's still a much more useful ability for conquest paladins who regularly cast fear than it is for other paladins, where the ability usually only comes into play when enemies use frightening effects, and even then they're already buffing saving throws via aura of protection.

    So it's not that huge, you still have to be careful with Fear placement, and you're still going to end up making trade offs between catching the most enemies in the effect and avoiding catching some allies. Of course, you can follow up with moving into aura range of allies after tagging them, but there will be table variation on whether that nullifies the frighten condition outright or just suppresses it while in the aura.
    I was thinking about this in a completely opposite way. That under most cases it will be beneficial to go late in the initiative and also catching an ally in the burst, as that will allow you to hit even more mooks. Cause they will be nicely gathered around your ally, which would also allow easier targeting of mooks that stayed at a relatively short range, as if melee enemies are clustered, you have more choices in how you will aim the cone in regard to hitting the enemy backline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Regardless, it's an ability that Multiclass conquerors can afford to delay or even skip if they're getting something particularly nice out of the trade, especially if they have an unusually high dexterity and/or some other initiative buff. But it is a very nice ability for conquerors to have, a real ability for them and not just the ribbon it is for other paladins.
    True that this ability is not a integral part of some strategy for other oaths, yet I have found that it's one of the most useful abilities to have if you are in a melee heavy party. And it can help rogue allies too (as fear shuts down their sneak attack), who don't have wisdom save prof and usually don't take it since at lvl15 they get slippery mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    The same way that third level paladin spells known are. Between Fear and Aura of Courage, the stretch of levels between their second asi at pal 8 and the impressive dpr boost at pal 11 are much more attractive to Conquerors than they are to other paladins, where those levels constitute a bit of a dead zone driving many paladins of other oaths to multiclass out into warlock, bard, or especially sorcerer and never look back, and that's a patturn we see repeated across the paladin level spectrum. There are several levels or even stretches of levels where conqueror either gets something better than other paladins, or more important than other paladins, or gets something that other paladins also get, but that they're better able to use. This is why, while conqueror multiclasses are certainly possible and viable, there just isn't the same feeling of having to do so if you're trying to optimize as there is for other oaths. Apart from the single level hexblade dip (and even that is debatable, both in terms of when and whether to take it), just a full progression of conqueror levels is every bit as viable if not more so than any multiclass mix.
    Aside from ''dead'' levels (which happen more or less in every build), I think that conquest paladins favor multiclassing into charisma casters less than other oaths, for the reason that they already have the best use of concentration built in them. So multiclassing into a caster and stockpiling concentration spells that will never be used is not optimal planning. You could argue that the same should hold for vengeance paladins (for them haste is what fear is for conquest palys), but at least they can twin it if they mc into sorcerers, so they gain sth out of multiclassing (a trade off where they lose damage through the loss of IDS and Soul of Vengenace, for buffing the rogue/GWM/SS; Quicken bless is the other big benefit). Still not optimal. Paladin multiclassing into caster works best if there is not a tailor made concentration spell already built into an oath's build. And if you get all the way up to level 10 with a paladin, and the thing you are aiming for the most, is alternative tactics for when fear wont work, I am thinking that the concentration spells upon which you will base these alternative tactics are more likely to be found in the paladin list rather than in the low tier spell levels of a caster (though I am not 100% sure of that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    A Conqueror paladin built primarily for tanking and fear based control with side orders of healing, buffing, and smiting just doesn't get better at doing their primary job by multiclassing out. You can get (much) better at your secondary roles, you can get better at alternate forms of tanking or control to use against fearless enemies, but you're not going to get better at the fear-based control tanking that is the build's core identity by diluting your progression with other classes.
    Ok, we agree. I wish I had read that part of your post before I typed the above paragraph.
    Last edited by Corran; 2018-08-15 at 12:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    A 7 conquest/5 sorc with careful spell has a party safe fear in a 30ft radius at level 12 (for the cost of 1sp and 1 3rd level slot). A straight conquest paladin doesn't have that until level 18. Sure, the paladin gets the fear spell 3 levels sooner, but what is he going to do with it? At 9, he fears all allies within 30 feet. From 10 to 18, he fears any ally outside 10ft but within 30 (basically all your casters and ranged dps).

    A full 1 to 20 conquest paladin is solid, no doubt. But I think y'all are really discounting the things that can be gained with multiclassing after paladin 7. A 7 paladin/5 sorcerer can also twin haste on two physical dps characters when fear isn't the right use of his concentration, and a pure paladin will never be able to pull tricks like that.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Even if you do tag some allies, you can move in after to, at the very least, suppress the effect, depending on your DM's interpretation of how after-the-fact immunity interacts with ongoing effects. And even before you get aura of courage, Fear is a cone, not a sphere, it can be aimed to avoid tagging allies, even if doing so often means hitting only 2 to 3 enemies in a group instead of 4+. So, even before you get aura of courage, Fear is still a fantastic tool to have, and delaying access to it 3 whole levels, while also significantly delaying your ASI progression on an asi-starved build, taking a hit to your max HP, missing out on improved divine smite...

    I mean, it's a nice combo when you get it, but it's not at all a simple path to get there, and you're taking significant hits on the way. Plus you're giving up on ever getting the capstone, the aura increase, probably the lvl 15 oath feature as well, and dramatically delaying or losing altogether cleansing touch, which goes a long way to shoring up some of a tank's bigger vulnerabilities.

    Again, Pal7/Sor5, much like Pal7/War5, is a great combo, but unless you're starting at that level there's going to be several levels on the way when you kind of wish you had stuck to just paladin, and even after the trade offs are far to significant to call the multiclass build superior in the primary focus of fear-based control tanking.
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWesson22 View Post
    A 7 paladin/5 sorcerer can also twin haste on two physical dps characters when fear isn't the right use of his concentration, and a pure paladin will never be able to pull tricks like that.
    And sometimes neither fear/wrathful smite nor (twinned) haste will be a proper use of concentration. Classic example when you are up against a dragon, or generally any other creature with legendary resistances and a special attack that can inflict tons of damage that can challenge even the best concentration saves. In such occasions, something as low cost as a quickened bless might be your best use of concentration.

    What I am getting to, is that planning for resources must follow some plan. When fighting enemies that are neither fear immune nor have legendary resistances, conquest paladins need not bother with anything other than wrathful smite, fear and conquering presence (pick the one(s) depending on the enemy set up, ie if it's just mooks or a boss with mooks). No matter the party set up, these powers (which are already built in) are more than enough to ensure you will have a good impact in the combat. More than good.

    Now we only need to plan what we are doing when facing enemies with fear immunity and legendary resistances. The most typical examples of such enemies, are monsters that have legendary resistances and either fear immunity or a very good wisdom save. Typical bosses that is. When facing such enemies, usually the best thing to do is to try and bring them down quickly (ie kill them with damage). It's also the fights during which it makes sense for paladins to use their smites (or at least it is optimal to do so then). So during these fights aside from taking the attack action and enhancing your damage with smite, you only need to find a good use of your bonus actions. Conquest paladins are pretty well covered in that department since they have spiritual hammer, though I admit that a quickened bless at the start of the combat might be a very good use of concentration, yet on the other hand, so would be several 4th and 5th level paladin spells (BUT.... spending an action to cast a spell instead of attacking the enemy boss and at a greater risk than normal of losing concentration, means that it has to be a spell fitting extremely well to the occasion). That only leaves fights when we are up against several fear immune mooks. This is where multiclassing into caster would help us the most (careful web/ stinking cloud/ hypnotic pattern/ reverse gravity & animate objects, or twinned haste/ greater invisibility/ polymorph, or others), yet unless the DM specifically tailors encounters against you, I don't think such encounters will be the norm (roughly only 10% of monsters in the MM are fear immune, and I think that the majority of them fall into the boss type which I discussed a few sentences back). So multiclassing into a caster loses one of its main benefits, and that is giving us access to powerful concentration spells.

    That said, one can squeeze a lot of value out of a carefully planned sorcadin, so I would not entirely discount a conquest sorcadin build. But I think that some of the other oaths multiclass better into it, as they don't have built in them the tactics that a conquest paly has.

    ps: Apologies for not answering the part where you discuss the synergy between a 10' aura of courage with fear, as I already covered my thoughts on why I think it's effective in my answer to Malisteen.
    Edit: Adding it for reference
    Spoiler
    Show
    I was thinking about this in a completely opposite way. That under most cases it will be beneficial to go late in the initiative and also catching an ally in the burst, as that will allow you to hit even more mooks. Cause they will be nicely gathered around your ally, which would also allow easier targeting of mooks that stayed at a relatively short range, as if melee enemies are clustered, you have more choices in how you will aim the cone in regard to hitting the enemy backline.
    Last edited by Corran; 2018-08-15 at 03:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    I think we can all agree that regardless of how you build them, as long as you have high charisma and you go at least 7 paladin, conquest is awesome. It adds so many more options than just being a smite machine. That's why I gravitate towards it. I like lots of different tactical options, and fear is just another great tool in the toolbox. That said, if you want to just use spell slots for smite and be a typical sword and board heavy armor paladin, conquest can do that too (albeit not as well as vengeance).

    I am going to go 1 sorc/7 conquest to start. By that time, I'll know whether adding more sorcerer or paladin is better for my play style. I just already had it in my mind that I wanted to play a scourge aasimar paladin/divine soul and was trying to decide between paladin oaths. Nothing jumped out at me (other than crown for tanking or vengeance for dps) that fit what I wanted, which was more versatility. Conquest fits it.

    The campaign I am currently DMing is less than halfway through. The characters are only level 6 right now. So I have plenty of time between now and then anyway.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Regarding how aura of courage interacts with frightened allies, I leave this here for reference (it's the answer I got from the RAW thread):

    Q 43
    If an ally is already frightened, and my 10th level paladin (who has aura of courage) moves within 10' of said ally, does my ally remain frightened (because he was already frightened) or does aura of courage suppress the effect while I am within 10' of them and conscious?
    A 43 RAW the Aura of Courage has no effect on an already frightened creature. RAI in the Aura of Courage suspends the frightened condition while the creature is in its area: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...60204459630592
    Last edited by Corran; 2018-08-15 at 04:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    The link doesn't exist, leaving the interpretation entirely unsupported. Where in the rules is condition immunity defined at all? I've been unable to find it.
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2018-08-15 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    The link doesn't exist, leaving the interpretation entirely unsupported. Where in the rules is condition immunity defined at all? I've been unable to find it.
    Does the link work now?
    Btw, the link is about aura of devotion instead of courage, but basically these two features use exactly the same language (with the word frightened substituting the word charmed). Jeremy Crawford is asked if a paladin approaches an affected ally means he would end the effect, and says that RAW is unclear, but RAI is that the effect is suspended as long as the paly is within 10' of the ally.
    Personally (and I could be horribly wrong as I am not a native speaker), I think there is enough room for interpretation to allow even for nullifying the effect (if the word frightened/charmed can be read as an adjective in the text of aura of courage/devotion). And that's how we played it so far in my table. Though I am now thinking that the RAI interpretation makes a lot more sense (ie suppressing the effect while within 10').
    Last edited by Corran; 2018-08-15 at 04:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Works now, but says something different than how it was initially described. "Raw is unclear" is a vastly different answer from "raw says it does nothing".
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Works now, but says something different than how it was initially described. "Raw is unclear" is a vastly different answer from "raw says it does nothing".
    Further clarification:
    Spoiler: Aura of courage and frightened allies
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by E’Tallitnics
    Quote Originally Posted by Corran
    Hello E'Tallitnics. I am a bit confused about the answer you gave me in the RAW thread (Q43), and I thought it would be better to pm you about it rather than bogging down the RAW thread with follow up questions or discussion.

    In the answer you gave me, you said that RAW the aura of courage does nothing in respect to an ally that is already frightened, yet in the link you provided Crawford says that RAW is unclear. And that got me a bit confused.

    Btw, thank you for the reply in the RAW thread.
    I'm sorry I didn't make it more clear in the thread!

    This is a classic example of Jeremy Crawford not wanting to admit that the text of the rules is incorrect. RAW is clear because it says nothing about pre-existing conditions. But when this was brought to his attention instead of saying, "My Bad" he backpedals into "RAI" territory and (now) clearly indicates that pre-existing conditions are affected.
    Let me know if this is still confusing you. Ima paste my quote into the thread so to make it more clear and spare others the same confusion.

    Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  17. - Top - End - #227
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    It says you become immune. How immunity interacts with preexisting conditions isnt defined in the raw, so the raw is entirely unclear, and there's no more reason to assume immunity will do nothing than there is to assume it will nullify the effect altogether rather than merely suppresding it. Crawford isn't the one being unnecessarily obstinant here.
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  18. - Top - End - #228
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Any thoughts on Conquerors in Eberron? Mechanically, there are a couple new racial options that stand out to me, most notably the Warforged Envoy. No need to eat, sleep, or breathe, near ideal stat mods (+1 con, +1 to teo of your choice, allowing for +1 str, con, cha), free skill and tool proficiency plus integrated tool with expertise, and of course the free plate mail that never comes off at level 1 that automatically improves up to the equivalent of platemail +4 as you level, with similarly impresdive light and medium armor alternatives for the esoteric dex or partially dex based builds.

    Eg, An envoy can start with 13 str, 14 dex, 15 con, and 16 cha as a hexblade with composit armor, multi into conqueror, eventually pick up resilient con for +3 con mod, and still have better AC than most heavily armored conquerors at any given level.
    Maybe not the most optimal build, heavy armor warforged still has an easier stat distribution and at least 1 better AC, but if you wanted a less-heavily-armored conqueror, for instance one calable of traveling with a stealthy party without giving them away, envoy is a solid alternative to half elf.

    There is an open question of what tool set to integrate. There aren't a lot of tool proficiencies that seem relevant to a conqueror. Maybe poisoner's kit?

    Of course, this is playtest material, and subject to change, but as it stands I'd currently put warforged envoy way up there with vuman, half elf, and fallen aasimar for best conqueror races.

    While its not quite on that tier, mark of sentinel human is also a solid racial choice. Largely wasted wisdom boost, but can still put +1 in str and cha, and has bonuses to perception and initiative (!), plus you can pick a buddy and gain advantage on perception to detect threats to your buddy, and can take a hit for them as a reaction, and you gain the blade ward cantrip (meh) and shield 1/rest (also probably meh unless and until you grab warcaster, unless you opt to fight with a greatsword or halberd instead of a shield). Still, a solid suite of bonuses and abilities for a tanky class.
    The pursuit of knowledge requires a mind unfettered by the petty constraints of ethics, faith, or ... mortality.

  19. - Top - End - #229
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Has anyone taken bows into account with the Oath of Conquest play style? Or is the lack of Smite just reducing your damage to much? I was thinking that having a ranged attack is pretty important for a character that uses Intimidation well, hell even at 10' your Aura of Conquest should be effective for shooting?

  20. - Top - End - #230
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Not generally a good fit for conquest. Can't wear a shield, lacking in opp attacks vs enemies that pass their fear saves, 10' aura will often push you into melee to maximize targets, not teally toom in the build for sharp shooter, etc. As a fallback ranged option for a rapier-wielding conquest dexadin is fine, but as your primary armament that would an extremely unusual choice.
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  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Not generally a good fit for conquest. Can't wear a shield, lacking in opp attacks vs enemies that pass their fear saves, 10' aura will often push you into melee to maximize targets, not teally toom in the build for sharp shooter, etc. As a fallback ranged option for a rapier-wielding conquest dexadin is fine, but as your primary armament that would an extremely unusual choice.
    Thank you for the information, I was thinking that was the likely problem although I personally think that many on this forum over focus on Sword & Board, and I was looking for another route. So far I am looking very close at Multi-classing a Draconic Sorcerer for Buffing/Crippling/DPS as an answer to that for my own build since you can get some great tricks out of 3 levels of Sorcerer. Since your not going to be wearing armor you can't take Defense, and you will need a free hand for a spell focus item. So with these requirements your going either shield and spells, or sword & spells, this is the reason I am actually liking the Viashino from the Ravnica stuff as then you can do both due to OK unarmed attacks, high dexterity, and a reaction counter attack.

    Draconic Origin: Fire or Lightning both seem to be best for this...
    Ranged Cantrips: Fire Bolt, or Ray of Frost
    Control Cantrips: Lightning Lure, or Booming Blade
    Melee Cantrips: Green Flame Blade, or Shocking Grasp (Better than it seems with Quickened...)

    Controls: Quickened/Heightened Earth Tremor, Twinned Maximillian's Earthen Grasp, or Twinned/Quickened Hold Perso
    Defense: Shield, or Mirror Image
    Buffs: Twinned Enlarge Person

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    This is a great guide. It really captures the ability synergies that make this archetype so damn powerful. Great job!

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    I mean, there are multiple reasons shield use is favored on a conqueror. You'll have good ac, and the better your ac is, the better every bit extra you can get becomes (until enemies need 20'2 to hit you, but that mostly doesn't happen in 5e), especially when you're imposing disadvantage.

    Often you'll be the only target enemies can attack, so making those attacks meaningless via being just too hard to hit really helps with the conqueror's mechanical role as a tank, as well as your role play disposition. Nothing kills the light of hope in your adversaries' eyes like watching their attacks go ti waste. You want to project an image of invincibility, and every little bit of AC you can get contributes to that.

    On top of the internal pressure towards shield use, if you dip hexblade to fix your MADness issue, then you're stuck wielding one handed weapons anyway unless you drag out the multiclass for two more levels, which isn't really recommended, and even if you do, imo chain is a better boon choice for the invication that maximizes healing effects used on you, which is a great ability for a tank.

    All that said, it's not at all the only way. Halberds in particular can be nice, especially for clowning on melee only enemies without reach trapped by your aura.

    Though I have to say I prefer a whip for that. Less damage, but, again, lets you wear a shield.
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  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Though I have to say I prefer a whip for that. Less damage, but, again, lets you wear a shield.
    Good information and thank you, I also like the whip for the OoC :)

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    This guide is amazing! Thanks so much for putting it together. I'm using it to plan an Adventurers League character for season 8. She's a lawful-evil half-elf Zhentarim (faction agent background) paladin of Loviatar who uses a whip and shield. I eventually want her level distribution to be thus:

    Paladin (Oath of Conquest) 10 / Warlock (The Hexblade) 5 / Bard (College of Whispers) 5

    I know it's not the most optimized build, but it fits my character concept well and has some ridiculous damage potential at higher levels (hexblade's curse + divine smite + eldritch smite + psychic blades). Given this array of classes, how would you suggest leveling up through the tiers of Adventurers League? After studying this guide at length, my idea was the following:

    1-4: Paladin
    5: Warlock (for the SAD [this is the last chance to tweak stats in DDAL])
    6-11: Paladin
    12-16: Bard
    17-20: Warlock

    Any suggestions or feedback would be greatly appreciated since we start the new season this week. Thanks again for the guide!

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Any suggestions for Backgrounds on a Half Elf Conquest Pali???
    "The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience."
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Are you playing with the optional rules that let you trade background skills for any other skill if you already have proficiency? If so, then soldier. It fits narratively, and you should already be proficient with athletics and intimidation, so they become two free choices, letting you pick up perception and whatever else you want.

    Otherwise? Sailor or Pirate get you perception (along with athletics), though they don't make the most aesthetic sense with typical heavy armor, sword & board conquerors. SCAG far traveler also gets perception (along with insight), but it isn't Adventurer's League legal on a conqueror, if AL restrictions matter to you.

    ...

    As a half elf, you can pick up perception via your racial bonus skills , in which case the background skills don't matter as much, and you're more free to choose based on background features. In that case, I like the noble background - either variant. History proficiency is a bit of a waste on you, but you'll get a lot of mileage out of persuasion. Position of privilege can open useful doors for you in game, while the variant retainers provide a lot of roleplaying value, and they can help carry your stuff, deliver messages for you, etc. The knight variant of noble is as good or better a thematic fit than soldier, and one of your retainers becomes your personal squire, with added role playing opportunities there.
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2018-08-31 at 10:45 AM.
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  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Absolutely love this guide and I am curious. I am currently playing a Conquest Pally in Curse of Strahd. Just got level 3 and got to dish out a little bit of smite-y goodness. Thing is, I know Strahd has influence over a lot of things and I think there's a handful of constructs in the setting. Am I just going to be miserable playing this subclass here?

    I love the flavor so much, if only I could roleplay him better.

  29. - Top - End - #239
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Are you playing with the optional rules that let you trade background skills for any other skill if you already have proficiency? If so, then soldier. It fits narratively, and you should already be proficient with athletics and intimidation, so they become two free choices, letting you pick up perception and whatever else you want.
    That isn't even an optional or variant rule. It is just normal PHB stuff.

  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    So question for those who have played higher levels.

    When do fear immune enemies and legendary resistances start being an issue?

    Curious because this is how I want to beat those enemies and enemies who pass the spell DC but I'm concerned I could have trouble hitting them with opportunity attacks if I don't increase strength.

    Waiting to 16 or 19 to devote an asi to strength seems brutal.....

    Like I don't care if I don't hit my regular attacks so much but I need to hit those opportunity attacks to freeze them up. And I need to be able to hit people through ac to proc wrathful Smite. But if not increasing strength this feels like an issue.
    Last edited by Rp4man; 2018-09-02 at 12:02 AM.

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