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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    I don't think there's any point at which I would not want a sequel.

    Or, in another way of speaking, a work's status as a sequel (remake, reimagining, prequel, interquel, or just sitting in the same universe as) should be a reason why the work shouldn't be made. I'm not even sure what criterion I'd use for deciding that some piece of art shouldn't have been made, because even the most terrible of works can inspire great ideas.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    The best comics are the ones that are a limited run with a single driving creator, like Maus, Watchmen, Sandman, and so on.
    Any definition of "the best comics" that excludes "For the Man who Has Everything", "There is no Hope in Crime Alley", "This Man, This Monster", "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man", "Snowbirds Don't Fly", "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow", the first Jaka story, "The Valiant Also Die!", and "Days of Future Past" is a little too limited.

    To put it another way, your definition excludes Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, Wonder Woman, the Avengers, and many others because they are so successful that they have outlived their creators' comics-writing careers.

    Many great comics fall in your category, but many great comics don't.

    ----------------

    Getting back to the main question, many great stories have wonderfully satisfying endings, and just don't need a sequel. Examples include Tom Sawyer, The Hobbit, The Three Musketeers, Alice in Wonderland, Toy Story, etc. It would be easy to say that writing sequels to them would be wrong.

    Unfortunately, all of them had great sequels. There's no way I could have predicted that.

    I conclude that I'm in no position to set rules for great authors. We should judge real sequels, after they're written, rather than hypothetical sequels that haven't been written.

    Otherwise, we're treating The Empire Strikes Back like it's The Phantom Menace.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Sandman has had a couple other works published outside of its limited run and I donít think they decreased the quality of the work at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    There is nothing more emblematic of this forum than three or four pages of debate between people who, as it turns out, pretty much agree with each other.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I conclude that I'm in no position to set rules for great authors. We should judge real sequels, after they're written, rather than hypothetical sequels that haven't been written.

    Otherwise, we're treating The Empire Strikes Back like it's The Phantom Menace.
    I donít think it is practical to say there is no rules on disallowing a sequel prior to actually making one and seeing it.

    Imagine I am a studio executive trying to choose which out of hundreds of movie ideas being pitched to me to proceed with. IRL there are a lot of criteria used in these cases to decide what gets a green light and what is let go. Now you might say most studios donít care about artistic quality and just want any dreck that can sell. Sequels will appeal because they presumably come with a built in audience.

    Hypothetically though, letís say Iím an executive of a studio that wants to be known only for putting out high quality work. Is there truly no rules involving sequels?

    I think there are at least several examples of movies that have to prove themselves. Another Transformers movie? A Disney sequel? Another Shrek?

    Iím not saying its impossible to make good sequels to those sorts of things, but they have an abysmal track record.

    Also include the next DC movie set in the Snyderverse, unless itís Flash doing a hard-reboot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I donít think it is practical to say there is no rules on disallowing a sequel prior to actually making one and seeing it.

    Imagine I am a studio executive trying to choose which out of hundreds of movie ideas being pitched to me to proceed with. IRL there are a lot of criteria used in these cases to decide what gets a green light and what is let go. Now you might say most studios donít care about artistic quality and just want any dreck that can sell. Sequels will appeal because they presumably come with a built in audience.

    Hypothetically though, letís say Iím an executive of a studio that wants to be known only for putting out high quality work. Is there truly no rules involving sequels?

    I think there are at least several examples of movies that have to prove themselves. Another Transformers movie? A Disney sequel? Another Shrek?

    Iím not saying its impossible to make good sequels to those sorts of things, but they have an abysmal track record.

    Also include the next DC movie set in the Snyderverse, unless itís Flash doing a hard-reboot.
    Sequel vs. Reboot is an interesting construction. I think that, at least, is a question with a real answer. The question being: would drawing on previously produced material in this property add value - artistically and commercially - to a new production or would it be better to take the concept and start fresh from an ostensibly neutral position?

    Of course there are degrees of reboot, from simply disregarding some recently produced piece of media - like how the Fast & Furious franchise decided to divorce Tokyo Drift from the sequential timeline - while changing nothing else, to disregarding an entire assembled media creation to start from the inspiration anew - like Disney's Star Wars reboot, to fundamentally changing the concept in a massive way - like going from G1 Transformers to Beast Wars (Beast Wars ultimately chose to integrate a lot of G1 lore, but initially it was a totally different thing united primarily by the 'transform' idea).

    So to take the Michael Bay Transformers movie franchise as an example, I personally cannot see how trying to make a movie that incorporates the idea that Last Knight and it's predecessors actually happened would give you something better than just making a whole new Transformers film from the same inspirational material, the existing films are such a disaster, especially in terms of storyline, that they can only damage new productions. There is absolutely a point where things are so bad that you're digging yourself out of a hole and it would be better to just start on the ground somewhere else.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Is there truly no rules involving sequels?
    Sigh. OK, here are my rules for sequels:

    1. If you write a great, intriguing, original story, with interesting characters and an compelling plot, then it doesn't matter whether there was an earlier story with them, it's a successful story.
    2. If you write a lame story, with an overworn plot and no originality, using characters that do not ring true to us, then it doesn't matter whether there was an earlier story with them, it will not be a successful story.

    So how to make a great, intriguing, original story, with interesting characters and an compelling plot?

    I promise you that if I knew the answer to that, I wouldn't be writing on a forum.
    Last edited by Jay R; 2017-12-07 at 10:30 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I donít think it is practical to say there is no rules on disallowing a sequel prior to actually making one and seeing it.

    Imagine I am a studio executive trying to choose which out of hundreds of movie ideas being pitched to me to proceed with. IRL there are a lot of criteria used in these cases to decide what gets a green light and what is let go. Now you might say most studios donít care about artistic quality and just want any dreck that can sell. Sequels will appeal because they presumably come with a built in audience.

    Hypothetically though, letís say Iím an executive of a studio that wants to be known only for putting out high quality work. Is there truly no rules involving sequels?

    I think there are at least several examples of movies that have to prove themselves. Another Transformers movie? A Disney sequel? Another Shrek?

    Iím not saying its impossible to make good sequels to those sorts of things, but they have an abysmal track record.

    Also include the next DC movie set in the Snyderverse, unless itís Flash doing a hard-reboot.
    That is all fine, but you are making an argument against capitalism/commercialism influencing the way artist develop art. The argument doesn't reference the question about sequels in the least. You are basically saying that people who write for profit without regards of artistic value/meaning is a bad practice. Which is true, but can't work as a fast rule for every sequel. It applies to any story, be it a sequel or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    like Disney's Star Wars reboot, to fundamentally changing the concept in a massive way
    What. I get the canon was refurbished, but seriously... what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    going from G1 Transformers to Beast Wars (Beast Wars ultimately chose to integrate a lot of G1 lore, but initially it was a totally different thing united primarily by the 'transform' idea).
    Funny enough, it was supposed to be a "canon" timeline to G1 during the first part, until they essentially screw it up and now nobody knows how the timeline is supposed to work

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    There is absolutely a point where things are so bad that you're digging yourself out of a hole and it would be better to just start on the ground somewhere else.
    But that doesn't mean Transformers can't be rebooted or made a sequel that revitalizes the franchise. It just means that Michael Bay is a horrible, horrible director/writer/producer/human being. I'm not trhilled for any Bayformer movie, but I'm still waiting too watch a good "live-action" film with Optimus and palz during my lifetime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Sigh. OK, here are my rules for sequels:

    1. If you write a great, intriguing, original story, with interesting characters and an compelling plot, then it doesn't matter whether there was an earlier story with them, it's a successful story.
    2. If you write a lame story, with an overworn plot and no originality, using characters that do not ring true to us, then it doesn't matter whether there was an earlier story with them, it will not be a successful story.
    Again, these bunch of rules apply to every story as a "story" on its own, not exclusively to "sequels". I think a lot of people are making a distinction where is actually none (that is actually relevant). Sequels are only different to other stories simply because they come after. But they are stories just the same.

    EDIT: on second thought, I think we were agreeing
    Last edited by joeltion; 2017-12-07 at 11:07 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Stop wanting a sequel? As in, I wanted a sequel in the first place and learned something about the creative process which made me cease wanting it to be produced? I'm honestly not sure how to answer that question.

    I think any concept can be written well, and I'm interested in good writing. And I won't know whether something is written well or not until I actually see or read it.

    I generally don't consider sequels as something I want to indulge in the first place, but if an author/creator has a good track record with something I might stick around to see more of what they create. Sequels included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I'm not keen on a sequel to Watchmen, because the whole point of the ending relies on us not knowing whether Veidt's plan works or not. If you settle that question, you suck a lot of the impact out of that ending.
    Funny, I always thought the ending implied that Veidt's plan was bound to fail. It was just a matter of detail for how it goes off the rails and when. As in, Veidt's plan never "ended", it was just something he would be continually pulling off until he couldn't keep it under wraps anymore. Kind of like Veidt was a forum user, trying to keep a thread on topic.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeltion View Post
    That is all fine, but you are making an argument against capitalism/commercialism influencing the way artist develop art. The argument doesn't reference the question about sequels in the least. You are basically saying that people who write for profit without regards of artistic value/meaning is a bad practice. Which is true, but can't work as a fast rule for every sequel. It applies to any story, be it a sequel or not.
    I said Iíd like rules to apply to a sequel. The hypothetical studio executive who wishes to apply hard and fast rules is just a way to bring home the relevance of such rules.

    But then, I didnít want people taking that hypothetical into a direction of saying studio executives like dreck that sells. So I bracketed questions of whether sequels sell.

    You can discuss all you want whether a sequel will or wonít sell. I just donít see how that question impacts our discussion which is about the merits of making sequels.

    Reboots are also interesting to discuss but they are not the same as true sequels. I think Star Wars and Star Trek were both benefited by going the reboot route for the latest films (and other media) rather than just creating more sequels weighted down by all the canon that entailed.

    I think there are movies that are not-sequellable, or at the very least a sequel would be both a hard-sell and extremely difficult to pull off in ways an original story would not. I was having trouble putting a hard rule on what movies they are.

    Now however, I think there are a few. Iíll allow exceptions but they have to be very rare:

    I think very serious films with closed-ended stories are likely to be non-sequellable.

    I think that franchises that have put out several bad and unsuccessful sequels cannot be followed up with a true sequel and require some sort of reboot.

    I think new actors playing the original roles make it hard for audiences to accept a sequel as simple continuation of previous films.

    Separate from a hard and fast rule about sequels and reboots: it has long been said that thereís something bad about Hollywoodís reliance on sequels and reboots, and there is not enough original content being produced. Would you agree?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    I liked sequels but Ghostbusters 2016 killed my passion So, I wont see stupid sequels...

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    The only way you can care about Superhero stories is by both having the elements you like exist in your head as nostalgia, and selectively delete everything in the past as well, and seletively don't think ahead.
    The way you describe superheroes makes them sound positively mythic. The story that's retold, as if new, to each new generation - with different twists and bit players and morals to suit the times, but clothed in the semblance of continuity...

    Really, the only fly in the ointment is that they're owned by soulless corporations, and you can't do squat without their approval.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I do not believe there would ever be a situation in which a sequel shouldn't happen. There are always more stories to be told.
    I would agree with the second part of that. But "shouldn't" is a big word for me. In general, I don't know how to say what should or shouldn't be.

    I think Terminator 2 is a work of dreck that devalues everything good about the first movie. I think Aliens and Mad Max 2 are empty spectacle, pointless cash-ins on their predecessors' success, although unlike Terminator they don't actively betray those predecessors. But a lot of people like them, even preferring them to the real movies, and who am I to say they're wrong? They're their own stories, why not let them stand or fall by their own merits, rather than "as sequels"?

    And that's the difference between a story-with-sequels, and a story that's conceived from the get-go as a series or trilogy (like Star Wars, or LotR, or Back to the Future, or...). In those cases, I like to judge the whole as a single work. Which is why I think The Matrix is excruciating masturbatory drivel, devoid of any redeeming features whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I'm not keen on a sequel to Watchmen, because the whole point of the ending relies on us not knowing whether Veidt's plan works or not. If you settle that question, you suck a lot of the impact out of that ending.
    I agree. The ending of Watchmen is - tension. To resolve that tension, one way or the other, is to destroy that ending. It's a case where a sequel fundamentally changes the original.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Everything, however, seems to be subject to the remake. Often times those remakes, too, are awful. "The Day the Earth Stood Still" is probably the worst remake ever. I'm far more sure than I am about sequels that there are no hard and fast rules about what cannot be remade.
    "Worst remake ever" is a big claim to make. The Pink Panther? Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? Planet of the Apes? The Italian Job? The Ladykillers? I guess some are only awful because they're so inferior to their originals, and if you'd never seen said originals they might pass for merely forgettably dull.

    Remakes are not sequels. I find it's a once-in-a-decade level event for a remake to be worthwhile if I cared a straw for the original. They don't even have the excuse of "telling a new story". (I exclude "remakes" that completely change the plot of the original, like The Fly or The Thing.) In my opinion, the only way a remake can win is by vastly superior casting. The Front Page (1974) beats its predecessor by pairing Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau, which is almost cheating.

    I wouldn't have said "King Kong" was one of those movies that could be remade but I thought it was great.
    Which remake are you thinking of? The 1976 version, in my teenaged opinion, was memorable chiefly for Jessica Lange's wardrobe. The 2005 version didn't even have that going for it.
    Last edited by veti; 2017-12-15 at 06:09 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    And that's the difference between a story-with-sequels, and a story that's conceived from the get-go as a series or trilogy (like Star Wars, or LotR, or Back to the Future, or...). In those cases, I like to judge the whole as a single work. Which is why I think The Matrix is excruciating masturbatory drivel, devoid of any redeeming features whatsoever.
    Only one of those four sets of films was conceived as a trilogy from the get-go. The other three were stand-alone films that got ret-conned into trilogies when the original film was successful.

    Also, please consider these examinations of the themes of the Matrix before calling it a "excruciating masturbatory drivel, devoid of any redeeming features whatsoever", because such declarations, especially when you don't back them up, come across badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    I agree. The ending of Watchmen is - tension. To resolve that tension, one way or the other, is to destroy that ending. It's a case where a sequel fundamentally changes the original.
    The end of Watchmen, both comic and film, is the opposite of tension. It is quite clearly established that Ozymandias' plan won't work, and thus that the entirety of what you just read/watched only got a large bunch of people killed for no reason. It was a continuation of the message of the work: superheroes are useless at everything, as appropriate for a work of deconstruction of a myth.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2017-12-15 at 09:50 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, please consider these examinations of the themes of the Matrix before calling it a "excruciating masturbatory drivel, devoid of any redeeming features whatsoever", because such declarations, especially when you don't back them up, come across badly.
    Wait a minute.... If the Matrix isn't just a Skynet 3.0; but an allegory of the Cisgender Status Quo; that makes a way better ending for Matrix 3. I mean, one that doesn't completely suck at least. I always thought the Matrix allying itself with Neo because Smith was a jerk didn't mesh well with the story. Now, if Neo's journey was in fact one in which he finally comes to terms with Cis people and Cis people comes to terms with hir new transidentity... that would be way more clever. It would be an allegory for "Change the worldview and kill all the bigots" or something like that

    Not that it will change my opinion on the movie tho. I never liked The Matrix too much to be honest. It's like everyone who is a great actor (practically everyone) was just reading the lines of the script 4 am in the morning.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: What would make you no longer want a sequel?

    If you didnít like even the first Matrix thatís one thing. However, thatdoesnít mean it cannot be read as a single movie, especially by the standards of the Witkowski sistersí own favored criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeltion View Post
    Wait a minute.... If the Matrix isn't just a Skynet 3.0; but an allegory of the Cisgender Status Quo; that makes a way better ending for Matrix 3. I mean, one that doesn't completely suck at least. I always thought the Matrix allying itself with Neo because Smith was a jerk didn't mesh well with the story. Now, if Neo's journey was in fact one in which he finally comes to terms with Cis people and Cis people comes to terms with hir new transidentity... that would be way more clever. It would be an allegory for "Change the worldview and kill all the bigots" or something like that
    How does the allegory change the story of the entire trilogy or even the first movie?

    I donít quite understand the description of ďcisĒ and ďtransĒ identity in some of these criticisms. Being transgendered is not a choice that is made, its something one discovers about oneself. After one discovers it, there is no going back.

    Also, given the trans-identity of the writer-directors, I am not surprised that The Matrix has trans-themes, but that its a full-on allegory for trans-identity gaining cis-acceptance? I donít think so. Thereís too many other identity-themes thrown in. The trans-gendered matrix is at best a burnt book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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