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2017-12-07, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
No, it'll get you killed. Consider:
A) A natural 1 fails regardless, so there's pretty much always a 5% chance of failure that sets the intended target loose.
B) You don't necessarily know what your charisma score is (or any of your other stats, for that matter, such as level, AC, HP, et cetera).
C) You snatched the creature off of it's home plane (kidnapping)
D) You put it into a trap designed to force it to obey (slavery)
E) The spell explicitly includes the line "The creature might later seek revenge."
F) You apparently plan to do this a lot.
G) You only live once.
A + B mean you can't be certain of trapping a given creature, C + D means even the good aligned ones may want to kill you when they break free. E means even if you can bypass A and B, they may come back and kill you anyway (possibly bringing friends). F means you'll be risking this over & over & over again, while G means you only need to fail at it once to get yourself killed.
If it's good you're after, you'll do more good in the dozens of years you act on your own than you will in the couple of weeks where you survive temporarily putting a few outsiders to work.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2017-12-07, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
If you succeed the first couple times, you can just use those outsiders to beat up any of the ones that break the circle.
If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2017-12-07, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Wrong on all counts.
If you're scared of rolling a 1, just use a spell which gives a re-roll, such as alter fortune -- that reduces the chance of a natural 1 to 5% of 5%.
But really, that's the smallest problem with your paranoid reliance on game-effects, and your systemic inability to deal with the vagaries of other people.
My plan would not be to summon Outsiders who want to kill everyone. That would be against my stated goal, and also incredibly stupid.
Wrong, it'll keep me free, while you are dead -- or worse.
You have no allies. You'll either be forced to keep a few powerful people alive for eternity -- or until you die -- or you'll be murdered by some nutcase who thinks you're the anti-christ.
The best way to stay alive is to not become personally famous in the first place.
Arcane magic lets me help the world covertly, without becoming the focus of attention for the miracles that occur.
Indeed.
Another way to survive would be to use lesser planar binding to summon [Good] creatures and ask them to do things they'd want to do anyway. You're not risking death if an escaped angel doesn't want to kill you in the first place.
Today I optimized Arcane spellcasting by being honest and having good intentions.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-12-07, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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2017-12-07, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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- Trapped in England
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
If it gets me 'remove disease' I'm going with that. I have a grandmother and great uncle both suffering from cancer and I'll be damned if I'm not going to take the option that allows me to fix that with a wave of my hand.
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2017-12-07, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
If we're assuming that a bunch of bindable outsiders come with you to the real world so conjuration can work, why wouldn't the gods come along too, or entities like archdevils? It's probably simpler to just assume that summoning and calling creatures doesn't actually work in this premise than to deal with all that mess.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-12-07, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Could a demon native to a different plane planar bind someone from earth (presumably what would be considered the Material Plane)?
If so, I'm sure a lot of them would be interested in having a pet that can cast any arcane spell up to 3rd level, from any spell list, at will, without preparationLast edited by heavyfuel; 2017-12-07 at 11:16 AM.
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2017-12-07, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2017-12-07, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Even if it takes a regimen of the spell, rather than just a single casting, we're talking about a huge difference in affordability of treatment and quality of life that makes it worth it. I might go so far as to accept some form of the the druid prohibition on metal equipment, but I might also start requesting people call me Doctor Druid because that character is ridiculous.
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2017-12-07, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Wield Skill. I have ranks in Spellcraft. Although, since I can (sometimes) recognize spells by components, I arguably already did.
This. We'd be giving Angelic beings the option to do good in a world that needs them. If they respond by killing us? Um... Ok...
EDIT: personally, I like my chances better with literal angels than with crazy human beings knowing who I am.
That having been said, I don't put it past the crazy human beings to capture, drug, and torture the angels in order to find me.Last edited by Quertus; 2017-12-07 at 12:10 PM.
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2017-12-07, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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2017-12-07, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
You don't need to make a Spellcraft check to cast an inward-focused magic circle. You only need to make a Spellcraft check to make the diagram that lets you cast dimensional anchor on the circle, which is not a useful thing to do in this scenario because dimensional anchor is a 4th level spell and thus unavailable.
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2017-12-07, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Last edited by Quertus; 2017-12-07 at 12:47 PM.
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2017-12-08, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
You are directly calling me "paranoid" and systemically unable to deal with people. Because you have fallen to personal insults, I am not going to bother pointing out the various flaws in your arguments. Have a nice day.
You're making a number of assumptions here.
1) That the angels don't value their freedom. You are, after all, magically compelling them to do your choice of work. Whatever pretty face you put on it, this is slavery. Especially when you get into things various people have suggested to get around that, like:
2) That they don't have other things to do. You are, after all, snatching them forcefully off of whatever plane they're on, making it so that they can no longer do that good work.
3) That if I go divine, I'm going to be obvious about it. Invisibility, Flight, and Dimension Hop/Dimension Step are all available to divine by various means (Invisibility is on the Trickery domain, Flight is on the Travel domain, and while Dimension Hop and Dimension Step aren't directly, they're accessible via UA's Generic Spellcaster), which really means you'd just be getting hospitals that randomly empty for no obvious cause. Fingerprints and hairs don't even help when you're talking about an area a bazillion people go through every day.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2017-12-08, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-12-08, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Yeah, I just don't see the need for anyone to use such a toxic and repulsive debate style. You're not the first person to react to it this way and you likely won't be the last.
Indeed, I can never understand the "it's okay to compel them, we're compelling them to do good things!" argument. It's much easier for me to assume that there's a very good explanation for why they're not here voluntarily already. It's probably related to the reason that fiends aren't running rampant - certainly they would want to be.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2017-12-08, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Your argument was an appeal to fear.
When you make those, you should expect people to call you out on paranoia and fear-mongering -- because when you make those arguments, fear and paranoia are your rhetorical crutches.
This is not personal, nor is it any sort of insult. This is strictly a criticism of your argument.
You decided that fear-mongering was your best rhetorical tactic, and now that you're being called out on it, you're running away in a huff about how you feel attacked. That's all on you. You're allowed to flame out of a discussion if you want, but don't try to pin that on me.
Also, just an aside, please don't become so bitter over this rhetorical loss that you're compelled to follow me around making snide little comments like my personal Gollum over here:
See this?
This guy follows me around, soft padding footsteps in dark threads, and posts these nasty little turds.
This poster is now unable to enjoy potatoes.
Don't be like that guy; I don't need a second Gollum. (Honestly I don't need the first one, either.)I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2017-12-08, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
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2017-12-08, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
I didn't even address you when I joined this thread actually. But if you want me to provide more examples of the attitude you display towards other posters (myself included), I certainly can. I doubt it would change anything though, or make you resort to namecalling and flaming any less.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-12-08, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Last edited by heavyfuel; 2017-12-08 at 03:24 PM.
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2017-12-08, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2017-12-09, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Indeed. Far better for no one to be able to tell you apart from a broader civilian population by the time any coherent response could be made to your actions.
Either hypothetical powerset is far better wielded as a scalpel than as a hammer if one wished to get one's murderbucket on.
I'm sure with a little bit of ingenuity, someone could get around the pesky no suicide or certain death clause in Lesser Geas, too.
Why would we, aside from the ones where the risk outweighs the reward?
Whatever that reason is, it'd certainly be interesting to learn, especially if any particulars of it would now apply to one's self due to one's powers.
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2017-12-09, 05:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
I would lean arcane, but it depends on how divine is handled.
In the case of Divine one has to ask:
1. Objective morality or does our world remain subjective?
2. Alignment/Ethos of the being(s) offering access to divine magic?
3. How likely are you to abruptly gain/lose access to divine spellcasting?
While arcane magic, with rare exception, is not granted by an outside force.. divine is always granted by someone or something, unless you are an ur-priest. Sure, ASF is of no issue with divine and there are some wonderful things that can be done with the spells generally available from such, but the rules under which you gain and can lose access to said divine magic are critical when considering the impact. Would followers of X religion gain access while followers of Y religion not? That provides evidence to group X for legitimacy of their faith, while Y group will likely demonize them. Would it be anyone with faith or only those of specific standing? Is it how close they follow the tenants of their religion or is it how close they follow their specific interpretation? How do heresies and heterodoxies impact casting? How do druids feel about pleather?
Divine magic rapidly becomes pandora's box. Conversely, arcane magic can be treated as a scientific field. Yes, religion would be effected to some extent, but not to the same extent.
And yes, I know this was a matter of just you, but divine holds many implications that arcane simply does not have.Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2017-12-09 at 07:38 AM.
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2017-12-09, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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2017-12-10, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Lawful celestial beings should place a value on freedom, yes: that value being a negative number.
Chaotic celestial beings... Have you read Books of Magic? Forcing someone to be themselves is kinda a thing.
Point is, Planar Binding is a "cheap" way to bring problems to their attention, and let them do their thing.
Personally, the only thing I'd "bind" them to is to is to prevent them spilling the beans on just who I am.
In 2e, at least, the outer planes were infinite, and there were an infinite supply of chaotic beings (lawful outsiders, otoh, were in strict, finite supply).
Well, you'd probably be the first person I've seen talking about directly "using their powers for good" on these forums that didn't seem suicidal to my paranoid brain. Kudos.
That having been said, there's still several problems your listed plan doesn't address, so all you've done is buy yourself a little time before a more thorough investigator with sufficient resources finds you.
As I said above, personally, I'd not be compelling them to take actions, just using the spell to bring matters to their attention, and asking them what they'd like to do about it.
Not saying my alignment would let me summon them in the first place, mind. But, if it did, well, my actions would, IMO, be less objectionable than most any other possible use of the spell. So, if anyone can bind celestials, I can.
Now, as to why they're not here already... well, maybe one I summon will answer that question.
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2017-12-11, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Well again, the basic premise is that you get to bring spellcasting into our world. Bringing an entire cosmology in along with that is not part of that deal, nor is cherry-picking the parts of that cosmology that best suit you (i.e. getting angels that can be called/bound but not fiends, or getting both but not gods, etc.) I would suspect that most forms of summoning would simply not work if all you're getting is personal spellcasting ability itself; the alternative involves a metric ton of baggage even if we stick with the neutral setting.
If you assume the best case scenario, i.e. every monster comes along solely as batteries for your own summoning with no goals, desires or agency of their own, then of course summoning is pretty effective. Though it's worth pointing out that the premise in the OP is 3rd-level spells and lower, so most forms of calling will either not exist or be sharply limited.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-12-11, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Several things: one, I find the notion of "divine casting, but no gods" rather antithetical to D&D's origins. What does the word "divine" even mean in that context?
Two, you're conflating several different ideas here. Personally, I'm going with the idea of pulling celestial beings from a D&D world, same as the D&D Wizard would. This implies nothing about the cosmology or planar layout of this world - and certainly doesn't remove the desires or agency from the called beings.
Three, if you read a little more carefully, you may note that lesser planar binding has already been established as a 3rd level arcane spell.
Four, the OP explicitly called out that no-one else got these abilities. Now, this is the biggest thing that potentially works for and/or against your position.
Personally, I took it to mean, "nothing in universe has or can learn such power", to prevent Arcane from obviously being superior through teaching new Wizards. Or Divine from obviously being superior due to "everyone worships my deity of choice, or suffers 'caster > mundane' on an epic scale".
Further, I took the OP to mean that spells actually have the effect you'd expect. So fireballs create fire that deals damage, and summon spells summon things.
But, if nothing in this universe has such power, then the summon spells must pull them from, well, a different universe.
Five, most people seem to assume that magic doesn't exist in this world, so, if you go too far down their rabbit hole, getting the ability to cast spells does nothing. That seems clearly not what was intended by the OP. I apply that same logic on summons.
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2017-12-11, 01:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
That's my point exactly - either this premise brings everything in the cosmology with it, or none of it. But if you're bringing gods along, you bring all the Celestial Bureaucracy baggage that comes with them, and binding nearly anything becomes more potentially perilous.
But if they have agency of their own, then your binding willy-nilly is at a minimum interrupting that, however justified you think your cause to be.
Whereas if you read a little more carefully, you will note the part where I said "sharply limited." Meaning, you're not getting any higher in your calling desires than LPB.
Where the summons are coming from isn't relevant though. What matters is what they think of being bound repeatedly, and what might be stopping them from showing up on their own without you needing to bind them in the first place, not their origin.
This does not follow at all. Only conjuration, and maybe some forms of transmutation, rely on the trappings of a cosmology; the other schools don't, so you can certainly be a "spellcaster" (divine or arcane, as you choose) whether or not gods and other planes are accessible.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-12-11, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Whether it's "You're preventing me from following the orders of my liege" or "You're forcing me to serve your will" the effect is the same.
No. But it doesn't matter. You're forcing them to do certain types of work *here* rather than *there* - assuming, of course, that the type of work you actually want them doing is the type of work they were doing (not a given - a lot of divine critters are pretty martial, including the ones with the fix-its you'd want to bring in).
Lots of assumptions there.
1) That the ones you grab will be the "heal the sick" kind rather than the "Kill the sinners" kind. Outsiders tend to be personifications of things, which generally makes them rather extreme. Are you willing to risk something you called killing the homeless folks who shoplift food?
2) That they don't have Better Things To Do.
3) That they don't care about the kidnapping and forced servitude.
This is pretty much the definition of an open-ended task. Just five days. If you do the math, it's mostly more time-effective to do it yourself anyway. Remove Disease has a standard action casting time. Lesser Planar Binding has a ten minute casting time. You could cast Remove Disease a hundred times for less effort than it takes to cast Lesser Planar Binding once. Meanwhile, an elite array Cleric-6 Aasimar (maxing Wisdom) with the healing domain can cast four Cure Disease spells a day. An "Open-ended task" lasts CL days. At CL 5, that's just 20 castings. Your time is better spent healing directly.
Both are unlimited in supply in 3.5. However: In thinking that they're fine with getting called away from whatever they happen to be doing, you're making the assumption that they're not currently doing anything more useful than what you're calling them away for. This may not be a safe assumption.
... when I'm actually making plans to be secretive and/or deceptive, my plans tend to run 3-4 layers deep. Wieldskill + Divine Insight + mundane disguise + Wieldskill + a five mile walk while invisible + a bus ride to the hub + ...
What makes you think I'm going to tell you the entire path on just a quick forum post?
This can still get you killed. Right up in the spell description for Lesser Planar Binding it calls itself a dangerous act. It's dangerous regardless of how you use it.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2017-12-11, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Divine vs Arcane: Which would be better in the real world?
Note that I, personally, wouldn't be interested in forcing anyone to do anything. Call them, try to convince them to stay long enough hear me out, let them do as they will (including go home). Hopefully, that clears up a lot of replies.
... Yes. I'd say that makes me evil, but, in D&D terms, if the embodiment of good does it, that just makes my alignment even more good.
Perhaps "D&D good" isn't what this world needs.
True. But only true until I get caught.
Fair enough. I, personally, do not trust my plans to be foolproof; as such, it would be unwise of me to trust the fate of the world to me not messing up.
Perhaps. Again, I trust my odds better with the incarnation of Good than with my own fallibility and the morality of humanity.