MY PLAYERS WON'T STOP SAY (MATT MERCER DOES THIS) rant with a question?

[Tanarii]

Thanks for the suggestions, but I was more interested in help with the why (it is good to stress time), than the how (to implement it).

I'm not sure what you mean by the why. You mean, how to convince players that they should feel stressed?

Point out its combat. Their characters are stressed, need to make fairly quick decisions, and keep it snappy enhances verisimilitude. It also prevents boredom during other players turns, allows more to happen in a single session, and makes the session more memorable and exciting. If they wanted to play a turn based RPG they should go find a a turn based RPG to play.

Okay maybe not that last one. 😂

[Pelle]

I'm not sure what you mean by the why. You mean, how to convince players that they should feel stressed?

Point out its combat. Their characters are stressed, need to make fairly quick decisions, and keep it snappy enhances verisimilitude. It also prevents boredom during other players turns, allows more to happen in a single session, and makes the session more memorable and exciting. If they wanted to play a turn based RPG they should go find a a turn based RPG to play.

Okay maybe not that last one. 😂

Thanks, yes, convincing them that fast combat will be worth it in the end, even though it is unpleasant to feel stressed in the moment.

I guess I just need some coaching by people who have experience in getting players on board with fast paced combat.

Some (of my players) would say D&D is a turn based RPG.

[Tanarii]

Some (of my players) would say D&D is a turn based RPG.

For sure, that's why I was being sarcastic. :)

Of course, D&D is a cooperative turn based game. It sucks to play those slowly. It sucks to play a LAN-based or Hotseat game of Civ/Alpha Centari slowly, because you're constantly waiting on other people to make their slow-ass chess-like moves. Same goes from most strategic & tactical board games, for that matter. They're BORING if you have to sit there while someone dithers over their turn on their turn*. Instead of making a general strategic plan before the game starts, making a tactical plan on other people's turns, then adjust those both on the fly for what happened right before your turn starts.

That's totally possible to do in D&D too. Make strategic plans before combat, make tactical plan for your move on other people's turns, and be ready to adapt quickly when your turn comes up.

IMO of course. But, like, a strong opinion.

*If Axis & Allies takes more than 3 hours to wrap up a game, you're doing something wrong.

[2D8HP]

If it's "Theater of the Mind" I could see it taking some time because of asking/answering questions about who/what is where, but if you're using miniatures I have a hard time imagining what could take that long.

Maybe make a house rule that during combat all discussion of "tactics" be in-character shouting?

[Anonymouswizard]

Maybe make a house rule that during combat all discussion of "tactics" be in-character shouting?

I'll likely use this next time I run a game. Sure, it can be fun to discuss complex tactics in the middle of combat, but games are even more fun when you impose rulings like this in my experience (I think I once played in a 'no tactics discussion after initiative is rolled' game, and it actually worked pretty well. A few IC calls for other players to do certain actions was permitted, but the game began to run fast and we learnt to quickly react to each other).

[2D8HP]

I'll likely use this next time I run a game.....

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Just so long as there's no interruption of riffing on Buckaroo Banzai, Galaxy Quest, and (especially) Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

One must have the right priorities after all.

[GlenSmash!]

Maybe make a house rule that during combat all discussion of "tactics" be in-character shouting?

I find that when it's a players turn In combat, If I sum up the previous players turn, then ask "What do you do?" it cuts down on the tactic talk (and other talk)

Example.

DM: "Bill, Jim's fighter just slew one of the orcs, there are three more orcs left. What do you do?"

Those 4 simple word put a little onus on making a decision over having a discussion.

It doesn't solve all my problems, but it helps a lot.

[Tanarii]

If it's "Theater of the Mind" I could see it taking some time because of asking/answering questions about who/what is where, but if you're using miniatures I have a hard time imagining what could take that long.

IMX Battlemats are almost always slower until you get to quite complex and big battles. It encourages players to try and play the most tactically precise & exact moves.

They're still useful despite that, because players are less confused at to what's going on, for anything beyond very simple conflicts. (I didn't even realize how confused they were until I had a discussion with them). But even with the confusion, TotM is faster.

Maybe make a house rule that during combat all discussion of "tactics" be in-character shouting?

IMO that's the best way to play in general. If it's not something directed at the DM describing an action, if you say it, your character says something approximately like it.

Players should be sure to tell the DM they're pulling a PC aside before they start table talk about sending the henchmen ahead to spring traps, or calling them red shirts.

[Anonymouswizard]

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Just so long as there's no interruption of riffing on Buckaroo Banzai, Galaxy Quest, and (especially) Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

One must have the right priorities after all.

I mean, only the last one is banned at my table, because it'll stop the game dead for half an hour at least. Anything else is fair game

[mephnick]

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Just so long as there's no interruption of riffing on Buckaroo Banzai, Galaxy Quest, and (especially) [I]Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

I think if it was legal to kill players that overuse pop culture references I would probably do it. I mean, I'm getting close as it is.

I don't mind a light hearted table, but I think I might actually die if someone sings Brave Sir Robin during what should be a stressful retreat in the face of death once more.

[Demonslayer666]

IMX Battlemats are almost always slower until you get to quite complex and big battles. It encourages players to try and play the most tactically precise & exact moves.

They're still useful despite that, because players are less confused at to what's going on, for anything beyond very simple conflicts. (I didn't even realize how confused they were until I had a discussion with them). But even with the confusion, TotM is faster.

IMO that's the best way to play in general. If it's not something directed at the DM describing an action, if you say it, your character says something approximately like it.

Players should be sure to tell the DM they're pulling a PC aside before they start table talk about sending the henchmen ahead to spring traps, or calling them red shirts.

I have found the exact opposite is true. It's only faster for small combats, which are fast by default. If you try and do a large combat with TotM, you are going to be redescribing what's going on way too often. With a battle map, I can plan out my next turn without any description.

TotM always makes me feel cheated as a player. The DM arbitrarily says no or yes, at their whim. I had the DM look at me and say, you don't get Sentinel OA because you aren't next to her, despite me saying specifically that I am protecting the cleric. When important information is left out, it's pretty damning.

[Tanarii]

I have found the exact opposite is true. It's only faster for small combats, which are fast by default. If you try and do a large combat with TotM, you are going to be redescribing what's going on way too often. With a battle map, I can plan out my next turn without any description.

You're an exceptional player then, because you plan ahead. Most players who haven't been specifically trained NOT to wait until their turn, and then try to carefully play the battlemat like a board game, taking much longer than if they don't have a board to look at. Even confused by TotM, players generally make decisions faster on their turn.

OTOH It sounds like I'm giving TotM too much credit. I've shifted away from using it to using basic diagrams and occasionally a full battlemat, because the confusion with TotM was FAR more than I realized. My players told me they often felt like they were fighting in darkness, not just missing a full top-down view of the battle, but not really understanding what was going on. Even though they made decisions faster.

[Hyde]

You're an exceptional player then, because you plan ahead. Most players who haven't been specifically trained NOT to wait until their turn, and then try to carefully play the battlemat like a board game, taking much longer than if they don't have a board to look at. Even confused by TotM, players generally make decisions faster on their turn.

OTOH It sounds like I'm giving TotM too much credit. I've shifted away from using it to using basic diagrams and occasionally a full battlemat, because the confusion with TotM was FAR more than I realized. My players told me they often felt like they were fighting in darkness, not just missing a full top-down view of the battle, but not really understanding what was going on. Even though they made decisions faster.

I started out mostly with TotTM, but gradually shifted to battlemats and minis (there was a transition with a truly monstrous white board for a table I rather liked). Since my primary game is online, the mats are kind of necessary, since I don't have hand gestures and other nonverbal means of communicating what comes out of my face. I haven't noticed it as a factor that really slows down our play, we have... other issues, but I can see what you mean.

[2D8HP]

I started out mostly with TotTM, but gradually shifted to battlemats and minis (there was a transition with a truly monstrous white board for a table I rather liked). Since my primary game is online, the mats are kind of necessary, since I don't have hand gestures and other nonverbal means of communicating what comes out of my face. I haven't noticed it as a factor that really slows down our play, we have... other issues, but I can see what you mean.

How do you use mats on-line?

[Beelzebubba]

I could try bringing a timer, but not sure if it works well if I can't get buy-in to it first.

That has never worked for me in (way too many) years of gaming.

[Demonslayer666]

You're an exceptional player then, because you plan ahead. Most players who haven't been specifically trained NOT to wait until their turn, and then try to carefully play the battlemat like a board game, taking much longer than if they don't have a board to look at. Even confused by TotM, players generally make decisions faster on their turn.

OTOH It sounds like I'm giving TotM too much credit. I've shifted away from using it to using basic diagrams and occasionally a full battlemat, because the confusion with TotM was FAR more than I realized. My players told me they often felt like they were fighting in darkness, not just missing a full top-down view of the battle, but not really understanding what was going on. Even though they made decisions faster.

I've seen those players before, and generally attribute that to not paying attention. All 3 of us DM's encourage people to pay attention even when it's not your turn. OTOH we have a very deliberate player that takes more time than everyone else.

TotM certainly has it's place. We use it quite often, and it works very well for simple combats. A little confusion is fine - the players have to trust the DM to a certain extent.

[Anonymouswizard]

I've seen those players before, and generally attribute that to not paying attention. All 3 of us DM's encourage people to pay attention even when it's not your turn. OTOH we have a very deliberate player that takes more time than everyone else.

TotM certainly has it's place. We use it quite often, and it works very well for simple combats. A little confusion is fine - the players have to trust the DM to a certain extent.

A problem with paying attention is that whether or not somebody is paying attention can be hard to tell. Several times I've played closer attention to the combat when browsing this forum then when I've had my phone away (as a note, I also use my phone as a tool to not pay attention when the focus is on other party members, but I do generally respond when spoken to). Other people I've known use their phone to get away with not paying attention.

My general compromise is that I don't ban phones when running, although I do ban laptops, but I ban earphones and games. Browsing the internet is fine, replying to a message is fine, but if it's something that 'can't' be put on hold for five minutes while you take your turn it's banned.

I've noticed that I tend to prefer TotM and also prefer smaller combats, I've done large ones and it's never been as fun to me, although I'll generally pull out a pad of paper and mark positions on a rough map as well. It's a nice compromise, enough information that there's no 'where is everybody' but the fiddly squares get to stay away and everything remains 'that seems reasonable'.

Yes, PCs start moving further and further as combat drags on, but I'm alright with that as it just ends up making combat faster when people begin getting bored with it.

[dehro]

so.. did anybody notice that the OP's last post in this thread is a couple of pages back and nobody replied to that post either?

[Vaz]

so.. did anybody notice that the OP's last post in this thread is a couple of pages back and nobody replied to that post either?

Nah, thread's dead.

[bc56]

I would say that as a DM, you are letting your players push you around. You are the DM, you run the show. If your players expect Mercer, just say that you're not Mercer and that you are not going to play with his rules. If they object/threaten to quit, let them, and find players who want to play the way you run.