Elder Scrolls Lore Discussion

[Cikomyr]

So i have been catching up a lot on Elder Scroll lore recently, and i got wondering about what seems to be a strange point in the timelines. I thought: who best to ask than my local band of knowledgeable nerds?!?

Okay. So here is a (very, very rough) outline of Skyrim timeline:

- Elves arrive in Skyrim. Mostly the Falmer, but there were some Dwemers on the eastern edge, bordering Morrowind.
- Men arrived from Atmora, and created the "Old Holds" (Winterhold, Windhelm, Riften.. +?)
- Elves panic when they see men breed like rabbits. They commit genocide "Night of Tears". Some men flee.
- Human Uber King comes back with the 500 Companions. They conquer the Falmer, creating the New Holds (Whiterun, Solstice, Falkreath, +..?)
- Eventually, Humans decide to go all-in genocidal against the Falmer, who run away asking sanctuary to the Dwemers.

Eventually, there were wars of Nords vs. Dwemers/(Previous Dunmers).

I know also that somewhere in there, the Jarl of Whiterun decided to capture and keep a Dragon as pet.

And somewhere in there, Tiber Septim created the Empire as the first Dragonborn. And during a time, the Nords worshipped the Dragons as Gods, with the Dragonpriests acting as Stewarts. Until the Dragonwar where the people of Skyrim rose and overthrew them.

I am confused exactly where the Dragon Cult and the Dragon War fit in the timeline I wrote. And if Septim came before or after it. Or maybe during?

[Leecros]

I am confused exactly where the Dragon Cult and the Dragon War fit in the timeline I wrote. And if Septim came before or after it. Or maybe during?

The Dragon War occurred during the Merethic Era after Ysgramor(Human Uber King) and his followers settled in Skyrim.

The Eras as we know them today started with The First Era and the founding of the Camoran Dynasty and the Cyrodilic Empire. The first era starts after the Merethic Era. The First Era lasted 2920 years until the assassination of Emperor Reman Cyrodiil III brought an end to the Camoran Dynasty.

The Second Era lasted for almost 900 years. In 854 or 855 of the Second Era, General Talos changed his name to Tiber Septim and conquered Tamriel for The (Septim) Empire.

so to answer your questions. The events of the Dragon War occurred well over 3,000 years before Tiber Septim conquered Tamriel and they would have occurred after Ysgramor settled in Skyrim. When Ysgramor settled in Skyrim, he also brought the Atmoran religion with them which was known as the Dragon Cult which worshiped Dragons as gods. Which the dragons were just fine with.

[Feytalist]

Timelines in TES is always screwy. Entire eras have basically no solid timeline, so exact dates are fairly useless in the early ears.

The Dragon Cult came from a wider worship of totem animals by Men, so we can assume that it came with them from Atmora.

The Dragon War itself is said to have been in the Metheric Era. That script mentions Ysgramor, so it was after (or during?) his time, but before the start of the First Era. But that's like 1000 years of undocumented history, so who knows.

Ysgramor and the Five Hundred take control of Northern Skyrim sometime in the late Merethic. Harald kills the last of the Dragon Cult sometime in the early First Era (1E140 - Attack on Forelhost). So, best guess... sometime inbetween those two events.


Oh, extra tidbit: "Previous Dunmer" were called Chimer.

[Eldan]

Septim came much later. There are currently six eras in Tamrielic history, which are usually called the Mythic Era, the Merethic era, and then the first through fourth eras.

THe mythic era is where the gods walk around and things are weird. The merethic era is where elves did most relevant things. The first through third eras are roughly the time periods of the three cyrodiilic empires.

The arrival of men on Tamriel and the story of Ysgramor and the companions is in the Merethic era, where the few men who lived on Tamriel struggled against the mighty elven states that ruled almost the entire continent, though vast stretches of it were also uninhabited. This is the time of the Camoran, Direnni, Velothi, the Ayleïd and Falmer, elven cultures that went extinct or changed a lot. Only towards the end of this time came the arrival of the Nords and the Dragon wars.

The first era is when men begin to eclipse elves in many ways. This is the time of Ysmir Wulfarth, the War of the First Council for the Dunmer, the disappearance of the Dwemer, the arrival of the Yokudans in force in Hammerfell, the first Breton settlement in Evermore and, most importantly, Alessia's slave rebellion in Cyrodiil and the founding of the Cyrodiilic human culture, the first empire and the creation of the Eight Divines which are a mixture of elven and nordic gods. It is unknown how long the first era was, because it had a twenty-third century, but no 16th to 22nd centuries, thanks to a dragon break. Towards the end of this era, Reman Cyrodiil repels an Akaviri invasion for a time and establishes the second Empire, the Reman or Cyrodiilic Empire.

The second era was when the Reman Empire was slowly replaced by the Akaviri Potentates, who managed to take control. It's relatively short and begins by the ascencion of the first Potentate and lasts until Tiber Septim, the Dragonborn, conquers the entire continent, names it the Septim empire and crowns himself god-emperor Talos. The conquest is very bloody and the elves hate his very name to this day, especially the former Altmeri Dominion, which was brutally crushed when Talos marched a gigantic bronze war machine with the power of a dead god across their entire island, burning everything. (That's the reason they demand he should be removed from the pantheon. THey see him as a bloody tyrant and mass-murderer.)
The second era is also the setting of Elder Scrolls online.

The third empire is the time of the Septim dynasty, the descendants of Talos. Overall, it's a relatively peaceful time, though there's the occasional wars and rebellions that get quite bloody, such as the wars with Potema, the Wulf Queen of Solitude. The games Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind are all set during the reign of Uriel Septim VII. In Oblivion, he is murdered and his last surviving son sacrifices himself to stop an invasion of Daedra, which brings the Septim line to an end, along the third era.

Skyrim is set a few centuries into the fourth era. The empire has fallen apart, most provinces have seceded or been conquered by those that have and Titus Mede, the current emperor, doesn't seem able to restore it.

So, between the time of the dragons and the time of the Septim empire, there's thousands of years.

[Cikomyr]

All right. So Anduin fleeing into a Time Rift/all dragons going to sleep (AS CORPSES), that was during The Dragon War, right?

Because they had lost their cult?

Then... If Talos was thr first Dragonborn, how do the dragons know of Dragonborns, if they had already gone underground?

Or did Dragons lasted after the Dragon War for a while?

[Leecros]

Then... If Talos was thr first Dragonborn, how do the dragons know of Dragonborns, if they had already gone underground?

Talos wasn't the first Dragonborn. Miraak was(if himself, the locals of Solstheim, and Hermaeus Mora are to be believed) .

[Cikomyr]

Talos wasn't the first Dragonborn. Miraak was(if himself, the locals of Solstheim, and Hermaeus Mora are to be believed) .

So.. Talos was the last Dragonborn? (Before TES5)

[Mando Knight]

All right. So Anduin fleeing into a Time Rift/all dragons going to sleep (AS CORPSES), that was during The Dragon War, right?

Because they had lost their cult?

Then... If Talos was thr first Dragonborn, how do the dragons know of Dragonborns, if they had already gone underground?

Or did Dragons lasted after the Dragon War for a while?

Tiber Septim/Talos wasn't the first Dragonborn. That was Miraak, who was a former Dragon Priest whose ambitions led him to rebel against his masters to absorb their power. This is probably the main source of the dragons' knowledge of what Dragonborn are and what they can do.

After Alduin was thrown into the time rift (late in the Merethic Era), the rest of the dragons survived for several centuries on their own: Olaf One-Eye captured the dragon Numinex early in the First Era (but after the first Dragonborn Empress, St. Alessia, forged the First Cyrodilic Empire), and the Akaviri Dragonguard came to Tamriel late in the First Era for their dragon-hunting crusade.

The last Dragonborn (Emperor) before the player character in Skyrim was either Uriel Septim VII or his illegitimate son Martin Septim (who was subsumed into the Avatar of Akatosh at the end of the Oblivion Crisis).

[Eldan]

Yeah. The Imperial dynasties have always been dragonborn, that literal divine pact was a large part of their claim to the throne. But they didn't have any dragons to absorb or, after Talos, anyone to teach them the Thu'um.

[factotum]

(That's the reason they demand he should be removed from the pantheon. THey see him as a bloody tyrant and mass-murderer.)

I recall their reasons being a deal more sinister than that. Wasn't there something about them having to wipe out all Men in order to bring about the end of the world and a renewal with the Elves in charge, but they couldn't do that while a Man was effectively divine?

[LibraryOgre]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone pinpointed when Serana was put in Dimhollow? I got to that last night and it bugged me.

[Leecros]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone pinpointed when Serana was put in Dimhollow? I got to that last night and it bugged me.

according to a quote from Matt Grandstaff:

"The intention was that Serana went to sleep in the late second era, between the Reman and Septim empires. Her initial dialogue is just her surprise that there’s an Empire in Cyrodiil, as there hadn't been when she went to sleep."

[Inarius]

I recall their reasons being a deal more sinister than that. Wasn't there something about them having to wipe out all Men in order to bring about the end of the world and a renewal with the Elves in charge, but they couldn't do that while a Man was effectively divine?

Thats not really official lore, its stuff written by a former Bethesda employee who does some freelance stuff for them from time to time. So there is some merit to it but at the same time this is the guy who disliked the ESO lore so much he wrote a story about how the Aldmeri Dominion Queen Ayrenn is actually a mankind hating genocidal Aylied AI mining robot from the 9th Era.

[Feytalist]

Thats not really official lore, its stuff written by a former Bethesda employee who does some freelance stuff for them from time to time. So there is some merit to it but at the same time this is the guy who disliked the ESO lore so much he wrote a story about how the Aldmeri Dominion Queen Ayrenn is actually a mankind hating genocidal Aylied AI mining robot from the 9th Era.

Yeah, Kirkbride is a special kind of crazy. But he was responsible for some of the best parts of Morrowind lore, so he's good in my book.

[Eldan]

I like Kirkbridge's stuff in Morrowind, yeah. That's one of my all time favourite fluff writing. BUt he goes way overboard quite often. Like that long thing he wrote after Morrowind came out that was basically a long rant about how much better Vivec is than Azura, how everything went according to Vivec's plans and how Azura now has to KNEEEL BEFORE HIM.

I seem to recall some actual reference to at least some of the Dominion actually wanting to go through with a plan to unmake the world, yes. It's one of the most basic threads in all Elder Scrolls mythologies, how one god (Usually Lorkhan, but he goes by other names) tricked the other gods into making the world, which caused some of them to be trapped.

What I really like about Elder Scrolls mythology is how much of it works as both metaphor for political struggles in the real world and as straight up stories about gods actually walking around.

To the Nords, Shor is King of the Gods who made the world and fights off the evil Alduin, the dragon who will unmake the world.
To the Elves, Lorkhan is an evil trickster and spawn of Sithis, who made the world to trap the elven spirits, while Auri-El is a benevolent creator and the divine dragon king who lived outside of time in a state of perfection with the elven spirits who are now trapped in the world, while they worship Trinimac the Champion who will slay Lorkhan.

Anyway. While some elves may actually want to get their hands on all towers and unmake the world, I can't help but think that to the vast majority of them "They conquered us and they worship a monster who killed our parents and siblings" is a stronger motivation.
Remember: the oldest elves are many thousand years old. Divath Fyr was born in the first era and lived until the end of the third, over four thousand years. He remembers when the Dunmer were still Chimer. He was one. There are high elves older than that. They remember a time before humans were a thing and the almost total destruction of their civilization is a recent-ish event.

[Kesnit]

Yeah. The Imperial dynasties have always been dragonborn, that literal divine pact was a large part of their claim to the throne. But they didn't have any dragons to absorb or, after Talos, anyone to teach them the Thu'um.

The Graybeards have been around, and can and do teach non-Dragonborn to use Shouts.

[Eldan]

The Graybeards have been around, and can and do teach non-Dragonborn to use Shouts.

Yes, but as far as I'm aware, none of the Septims after Talos had it.

[Leecros]

The Graybeards have been around, and can and do teach non-Dragonborn to use Shouts.

Yes, but as far as I'm aware, none of the Septims after Talos had it.

IIRC, The Greybeards don't really like getting involved in politics. There would be a lot of political weight on them if they were to teach the Emperor's family members how to use The Voice.

Although...It's odd that given their disdain for getting involved in worldly affairs, they would take Ulfric Stormcloak on as a student...

[Keltest]

IIRC, The Greybeards don't really like getting involved in politics. There would be a lot of political weight on them if they were to teach the Emperor's family members how to use The Voice.

Although...It's odd that given their disdain for getting involved in worldly affairs, they would take Ulfric Stormcloak on as a student...

Ulfric came to them to join the Greybeards. He would have lived up on the mountain with them, except it turns out he was really bad at the whole non-involvement thing, so he packed up and left.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Aye, it's less that the Greybeards took on a political man as a student, but more a student of the greybeards dropped out and went into politics.

Kirkbride in my opinion, SOME of his stuff is in my headcanon. Definitely not any of his stuff about what happens AFTER any given game, but his mystical writing is fantastic.

[LibraryOgre]

Aye, it's less that the Greybeards took on a political man as a student, but more a student of the greybeards dropped out and went into politics.

Kirkbride in my opinion, SOME of his stuff is in my headcanon. Definitely not any of his stuff about what happens AFTER any given game, but his mystical writing is fantastic.

Have to wonder... is Fus just the easiest word to teach? Why do they seem to start with "Can you punch a man with your mouth"?

[Eldan]

It's probably more the most iconic one, so it's there for meta-reasons. ALl the references I can find to the Thu'um before Skyrim seem to be talking about it being used to kill people and tear down fortresses and so on with the pure power of shouting, too, no other powers.

[Keltest]

Have to wonder... is Fus just the easiest word to teach? Why do they seem to start with "Can you punch a man with your mouth"?

Probably because its one of the more versatile. Turning off the weather is nice, after all, but its not really a situation that youre going to run into too much.

[InvisibleBison]

Have to wonder... is Fus just the easiest word to teach? Why do they seem to start with "Can you punch a man with your mouth"?

I suspect it might be a measure of insurance on the Greybeard's part. They can't be sure how committed any student might be to the Way of the Voice, so they start their students off with a word that is cool but not that useful, to minimize the damage should it be abused. And over the course of the several years that it would take for any non-Dragonborn to learn even a single word, they can get a sense for their student's personality and determine whether it would be appropriate to teach them any of the more potent shouts.

[Cespenar]

Was the lore reason behind the Thu'um use of Draugr explained?

[Mikeavelli]

Was the lore reason behind the Thu'um use of Draugr explained?

The thu'um used to be much more widespread. Anyone who dedicates a sufficient portion of their lives can learn it, even if they don't do so as fast as a Dragonborn. The greybeards are a specific order devoted to the way of the voice that just happens to be the only voice-using order that managed to survive into modern times.

Draugr who use the Thu'um presumably were alive in the old times when learning it was much more common.

[LibraryOgre]

I suspect it might be a measure of insurance on the Greybeard's part. They can't be sure how committed any student might be to the Way of the Voice, so they start their students off with a word that is cool but not that useful, to minimize the damage should it be abused. And over the course of the several years that it would take for any non-Dragonborn to learn even a single word, they can get a sense for their student's personality and determine whether it would be appropriate to teach them any of the more potent shouts.

But they teach "Punch you in the face" not, say, "Animals, don't eat me"?

[Keltest]

But they teach "Punch you in the face" not, say, "Animals, don't eat me"?

That's what they taught to the Dragonborn, who had already learned the first word. We don't know what they teach to initiates in the Way of the Voice.

[InvisibleBison]

But they teach "Punch you in the face" not, say, "Animals, don't eat me"?

Yeah, it's not the best theory I've ever come up with.

That's what they taught to the Dragonborn, who had already learned the first word. We don't know what they teach to initiates in the Way of the Voice.

As far as I know, the only other student of the Greybeards who shows up in the game is Ulfric, who knows Unrelenting Force and Disarm. While there's no indication as to what order he learned them in, this does suggest that Unrelenting Force is the first Thu'um the Greybeards teach all their students.

[Leecros]

But they teach "Punch you in the face" not, say, "Animals, don't eat me"?

The thing is....Every Thu'um can be destructive. It's why the ground shakes when even one of the greybeards whispers "Dovahkiin.". Dovakiin is dragon for Dragonborn. The language itself is intrinsically destructive. There's nothing particularly destructive about Dovah and Kiin. It's simply the power of the language itself.

That doesn't mean you can't do good things with it. There's an animal allegiance shout for example. However that doesn't mean that in the wrong hands knowing the right words and ordering of words wouldn't be destructive.


It's like Paarthurnax said: "There is no distinction between debate and combat to a dragon.