Page 1 of 11 12345678910 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 318
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM

    Default Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I'm running a game, and playing in another, where MC is not allowed. I ruled it for the game I'm running just to simplify the choices for new players. The DM I'm playing with ruled it for similar reasons.

    I'm finding the games a lot more enjoyable than those where MCing is allowed; the players (myself included) aren't scrutinizing every possible build synergy between classes; no 'covfefelock' shenanigans to worry about and a hundred other 'unintentional mechanical benefits' to stress over.

    It seems everyone requesting builds online are looking for synergies to MC with - and I guess that makes sense - it's not hard to build a straight Paladin or Cleric or Warlock, once you know which subclasses look fun. But I kinda wish AL didn't include the option.

    I'd rather tailor a homebrew subclass that feels like a multiclass combination than open up MCing again; which seems to be the direction the subclasses in Xanathar's went as well.

    Anyone else feel this way?
    Trollbait extraordinaire

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    nah. multiclassing is fine in all the games I'm in. Comparing anecdotes I guess but it works just fine for the tables I'm on.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Morty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Poland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I wouldn't say it ruins it, but it has many of the problems 3E multiclassing did - namely, that it's an optimizer's tool and an easy way for an inexperienced player to make bad choices. And there's a lot of thematic overlap between it and archetypes. I've spent a while thinking about multiclassing my rogue, but decided against it.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Gulaghar and Ashen Lilies.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Swamp of Oblivion
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I also prefer games with no multiclassing. There's less build cheese and the cheese is more manageable, and you can still create most build concepts with some amount of reflavoring, especially if you do allow feats.

    You can also more easily allow unearthed arcana, since you don't have to worry about unexpected synergies.
    Last edited by Potato_Priest; 2017-12-04 at 03:33 PM.
    Spoiler: To My Fellow Empire Players and GM
    Show
    I may tend to come across as negative, as I usually post when something is wrong or to winge, but I really like this game so far and I'm having loads of fun. Thank you everyone for making it such a great experience!


    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    You are walking down the hallways following the map. You make a left turn, two right turns, step over a tripwire, and turn into a secret door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player
    I turn into a secret door? Dang the traps in this place are OP!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I honestly don't see it as an issue in my game that I play. We are all out there for fun and don't excessively min/max.
    To all the long suffering DMs putting up with our insane plans, crazy ideas, and "unique" solution we would like to say we are sorry. We "would" like to but we won't, since the truth is that we aren't sorry. We will continue to break your plans and make you make up rules at every possible opportunity.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Nah, the game is fine.

    Multi-classing might be ruining the civility of this sub-forum, though.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Not directly, but yes.

    Multiclassing ruins the game because the classes are not designed or balanced with regard to mult-classing.

    Multiclassing however does ruin the game due to the very unbalanced way that it works and stacks things FAR in favor of some classes than others.

    Ideally I would love to play in a game with these slight changes:

    1. No multi classing
    2. Feats are fine but SS/GWM become half feats and the -5/+10 part just becomes +1 Dex/Str
    3. Remove the spell Forcecage.
    4. LTH can is not a ritual and can be broken with enough damage.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2017

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I just limited so A. players can only multiclass if their characters story goes that way B. You can only multiclass once. No crazy Lock/sorc/paladin/fighter combos.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    Not directly, but yes.

    Multiclassing ruins the game because the classes are not designed or balanced with regard to mult-classing.

    Multiclassing however does ruin the game due to the very unbalanced way that it works and stacks things FAR in favor of some classes than others.

    Ideally I would love to play in a game with these slight changes:

    1. No multi classing
    2. Feats are fine but SS/GWM become half feats and the -5/+10 part just becomes +1 Dex/Str
    3. Remove the spell Forcecage.
    4. LTH can is not a ritual and can be broken with enough damage.
    I got mad for a second, but then I realized that this is just very keenly designed satire. Bravo, good sir.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Nah, the game is fine.

    Multi-classing might be ruining the civility of this sub-forum, though.
    Honestly, that's why I stay out of almost all threads that go over 2 pages.
    To all the long suffering DMs putting up with our insane plans, crazy ideas, and "unique" solution we would like to say we are sorry. We "would" like to but we won't, since the truth is that we aren't sorry. We will continue to break your plans and make you make up rules at every possible opportunity.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I feel like the title of this thread could use a "For You" tacked on at the end, but hey. I personally like multiclassing, since I've always been keen on customizing characters to taste.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Orlando FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    The current system of multi-classing only encourages optimizers and power gamers as easily evidenced by the multitude of "Most Optimized x and Y" threads on this forum. I prefer the 2nd edition version where you pick you classes at level one and all exp was split between them(made and make humans do this as well since dual classing is so clunky). Made much more role playing sense than the barbarian leveling up and suddenly "hey guys Im a wizard now!" in the middle of the dungeon.

    Currently I make my players tell me in advance what their character concept is and when they are going to do it. Further when switching classes into something they don't have they must find a trainer and spend 1 week and 100gp a level to find a higher level person of that class to instruct them. in game I am extremely hard on players who powergame and all 6 numbers for stats must be rolled in front of me, no point buys.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Multiclassing is the only thing that makes 5e interesting.

    The number of actual decision points you get in a straight 1-20 class are bare bones.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2012

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    No. Closed minds that think that multiclassing is going to duin the game is going to stilfle and ruin the game.

    Allow homebrew, allow multiclassing. What's the difference?

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Half of the players at our table, including me, are multiclass. Half are not. Not noticed any issue one way or the other.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Not really sure an optional rule can ruin the game. It might ruin a particular campaign, but if it seems to be headed in that direction...well, that's why it's optional, no?

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    The current system of multi-classing only encourages optimizers and power gamers as easily evidenced by the multitude of "Most Optimized x and Y" threads on this forum. I prefer the 2nd edition version where you pick you classes at level one and all exp was split between them(made and make humans do this as well since dual classing is so clunky). Made much more role playing sense than the barbarian leveling up and suddenly "hey guys Im a wizard now!" in the middle of the dungeon.

    Currently I make my players tell me in advance what their character concept is and when they are going to do it. Further when switching classes into something they don't have they must find a trainer and spend 1 week and 100gp a level to find a higher level person of that class to instruct them. in game I am extremely hard on players who powergame and all 6 numbers for stats must be rolled in front of me, no point buys.
    I take issue with the bolded bit here. What you're seeing is maybe a dozen or so people who like to use builds as a thought experiment talking about optimization. The game is more popular than it's been in a long time, do you actually think that the thought experiments of a handful of forums optimizers are evidence for a break in the game?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by UrielAwakened View Post
    Multiclassing is the only thing that makes 5e interesting.

    The number of actual decision points you get in a straight 1-20 class are bare bones.
    Playing the character is what makes 5e interesting.

    5e has a very dull character-building sub-game, but the actual playing of the game is quite fun.

    If you don't play, and you only use D&D for the character-building sub-game, then you probably want to use an edition like 3.5e instead.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Playing the character is what makes 5e interesting.

    5e has a very dull character-building sub-game, but the actual playing of the game is quite fun.

    If you don't play, and you only use D&D for the character-building sub-game, then you probably want to use an edition like 3.5e instead.
    The characters' toolkits are super boring though. And combat is not especially tactical or enjoyable, even compared to other D&D editions.

    I can play an interesting character in any edition or any system.
    Last edited by UrielAwakened; 2017-12-04 at 03:53 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    No. Multiclassing allows character concepts that wouldn't be possible to fulfill with single class, even with refluffing. 5e doesn't have enough options (or bloat) to have a single class for every possibility.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    No. Multiclassing allows character concepts that wouldn't be possible to fulfill with single class, even with refluffing. 5e doesn't have enough options (or bloat) to have a single class for every possibility.
    Then instead take out multi classing and introduce MANY more subclasses.

    Look how Pathfinder did it with their archetypes.

    Fighter has like thirty, many others have like in the high teens and twenties.

    You could sit down with 5 people of the same class and be COMPLETELY different.

    Honestly the way they did archetypes in general as adding or replacing class abilities was a great idea.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    No, Multiclassing isn't ruining the game.

    This kind of thing needs to be worked out at each table.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) or so I am told ... by 2D8HP

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudewithknives View Post
    Then instead take out multi classing and introduce MANY more subclasses.

    Look how Pathfinder did it with their archetypes.

    Fighter has like thirty, many others have like in the high teens and twenties.

    You could sit down with 5 people of the same class and be COMPLETELY different.

    Honestly the way they did archetypes in general as adding or replacing class abilities was a great idea.
    WotC can't keep 5 subclasses balanced with each other.

    Do you really want dozens of them for each class?

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2016

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    I don't have a problem with multiclassing, more with the push to "optimize" everything. Player sometime mocking other players for their less then "perfect" choice in class.

    See as a DM I try to make encounters that will have the players spend 15-20% of the hp/spell slots/potions. No matter our "optimized" your characters, you'll just face harder challenge. Worry more about making your character interesting then perfect.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    WotC can't keep 5 subclasses balanced with each other.

    Do you really want dozens of them for each class?
    Sure, if there were 20 subclasses for each class, 5 would be absolutely amazing, 10 would be meh and too focuses, and 5 would be garbage nobody plays. In the end you still get 5 good choices for every class, and 10 that are at least playable, which is much more than we have now.

    No more SORLOCK threads, no more SORCADIN threads, no more arguing over how spells for multiclassers work, seems good to me.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Hypersmith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Pluto (EST)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Multiclassing MAKES the game for me. For story reasons, to realize concepts, usually turns out pretty great. I'll plan to multiclass about 30% of the time, have multiclassed about 50% of the time. I wanted to play a cleric like a priest without having **** AC, 1 level monk dip. Story reasons later on turned him from a grave cleric into a death cleric, so now I'm gonna pick up two more levels of monk to go kensei and be all scary with an axe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Nah, the game is fine.

    Multi-classing might be ruining the civility of this sub-forum, though.
    Yep. People get personally offended pretty often over other people not playing the same as them. I'm happy with my two groups.
    Spoiler: Games
    Show
    Way of the Wicked: OOC, IC
    Surviving the Corruption: OOC, IC
    Blood and Ash: OOC, IC
    Crew Collider:OOC, IC

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    WotC can't keep 5 subclasses balanced with each other.

    Do you really want dozens of them for each class?
    Yes I very much do want exactly that.

    Then I can just pick the top 3-4 non-broken subclasses and declare them the only ones that exist.

    It's far easier to pick & choose the good stuff than it is to design good stuff from scratch.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Not a great place
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Yes, and no.

    Multiclassing is ruining the game, in that it's mainly there because people want multiclassing. In theory we should have just had four classes, and had a 'divine fighter' subclass instead of the paladin, and a 'roguish fighter' subclass instead of the ranger. But people thrive on options, so 5e has a lot more redundancy built in than needed.

    Really, there's no practical need to have a seperate Barbarian class, I can attach Barbarian fluff to a Fighter. Plus Berserker Fighters would be a cool subclass.

    In my 5e hack that's moving further and further away from core 5e there's no multiclassing, but that's because there's an attempt to archetype characters more. So you won't get a Scholar 4/Warrior 3, you'll get a Scholar who picked a couple of combat feats. Plus it takes a lot of weight off more for designing it, I can make classes a tad more front loaded without worrying about dips (which you'll notice 5e is slowly gaining a problem with).
    I prefer science fiction to fantasy, and generally play in the former genre. Due to this, I generally expect the laws of physics to apply to games, and work from that perspective.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Yes I very much do want exactly that.

    Then I can just pick the top 3-4 non-broken subclasses and declare them the only ones that exist.

    It's far easier to pick & choose the good stuff than it is to design good stuff from scratch.
    So... back to my original post, you'd want more subclasses so more character concepts could be realized without multiclassing, but then ban most of them, because WotC can't into proper balance.

    Yeah, I'd rather stick with multiclass.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    So... back to my original post, you'd want more subclasses so more character concepts could be realized without multiclassing, but then ban most of them, because WotC can't into proper balance.

    Yeah, I'd rather stick with multiclass.
    Wrong.

    I want both.

    I want more subclasses so I can pick a set of relatively well-balanced subclasses.

    I want multi-classing because that's also fun.

    There's no conflict between those.

    Smite False Dichotomy.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •