Is Multiclassing "ruining" the game?

[Theodoxus]

Me too - since the 3.5 UA had it, or close enough with the generic classes (Warrior, Adept, Scoundrel, iirc) and purchasable abilities... but I guess no one cares in 5E...

[mgshamster]

I would love a D&D hack to turn the existing abilities into point buy, but it sounds like a lot of work and extremely hard to balance. I am a little surprised I haven't seen attempts at this before, and I've looked.

If you don't mind it being an older edition, the Skills & Powers book did this for 2e.

[Saiga]

That's interesting. One of my friends is into 2E, I may ask her about it.

[Tanarii]

That's interesting. One of my friends is into 2E, I may ask her about it.

General consensus among everyone I've talked to about it, both those I played with using it, and outside my gaming circle since then: very overpowered and abusable.

[Saiga]

General consensus among everyone I've talked to about it, both those I played with using it, and outside my gaming circle since then: very overpowered and abusable.

Sadly I'm not surprised But hopefully it'd be useful for trying to create a 5E equivalent

[Matheau]

Why not just have a class less system, where abilities are bought like Point Buy? Certain abilities may have required levels, or require particular feats.

I have yet to see a class less system that actually works anywhere near as good as it sounds in theory. Any one I've seen end up with optimizers cherry picking almost the exact same character. On the other hand, players that want to build characters around a concept frequently end up having to spend a ton of their points just to be able to function as their concept, without necessarily actually being effective with it.

[ad_hoc]

I'm curious as to the appeal of a classless D&D.

Strong archetypes delivered through classes is one of the things that makes D&D, D&D.

Given that there are a ton of RPGs out there, why convert D&D to a classless system rather than just playing one? Where is the gain?

The move to a classless system is the major reason I don't like Multiclassing.

[Arkhios]

Strong archetypes delivered through classes is one of the things that makes D&D, D&D.

Given that there are a ton of RPGs out there, why convert D&D to a classless system rather than just playing one? Where is the gain?

This part particularly, I agree. Go play another game, or create one yourself, if D&D doesn't quite work for you.

[mephnick]

Given that there are a ton of RPGs out there, why convert D&D to a classless system rather than just playing one? Where is the gain?

People want D&D to be everything they want and don't seem to realize that it is a specific system with specific goals and traditions, just like every other system out there. So people try to warp D&D with all these crazy modifications instead of just looking up a system designed for what they want.

I'm gonna play a narrative role-play heavy game with no classes! Great, let's use D&D!

[Clistenes]

.
When I think of Moorcock's Elric he combines (in 5e D&D terms) attributes of a Fighter, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard.

The main problem with building characters like Elric is that he is very powerful. You cannot fully build him (or characters like Rand Al'Thor, Corwin, etc) because it would be unbalanced. Still, multiclassing helps you gather the right mix of stuff and you play up its effectiveness with good RP.

I don't remember what Elric did specifically, but most of Moorcock's heroes are fundamentally mortal warriors, and their most impressive feats are accomplished with the help of the Black Sword or other items of power, technology, or temporary infusions of cosmic energy. Most are humans, Corum's race has all but lost the use of its planeshifting powers before the story begins. I guess Elric would be the exception if any.

The way I remember it, what Elric does is:

1.-He summons Demons and Elementals who were bound by his ancestors. He can summon the strongest spirits from day 1, because the difficult part, binding, bribing, blackmailing or cajoling those magical beings into a pact was done by his ancestors, so all he has to do is to tell them "you owe me"

2.-He uses Stormbringer to cut people down. He can fight without Stormbringer to some extent, if he uses drugs or magic to make himself stronger, but he isn't that good a fighter without it.

So class isn't that important. Elric can use at least some martial weapons, has very low physical stats, high mental stats (well, maybe his Wisdom is not so high...), many skill ranks in Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (History), Profession (Alchemist), and probably has some overpowered inherited template that allows him to summon Demons and Elementals.

[Tanarii]

many skill ranks in Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (History), Profession (Alchemist),

None of those things exist in 5e.

[mgshamster]

I have yet to see a class less system that actually works anywhere near as good as it sounds in theory.

Fate works pretty well.

[Dudewithknives]

Fate works pretty well.

Fate is horrible. It is just a game of who can make up a bs reason to convince the gm that their aspects work.

Also, they only have like 20 skills, only like 8 or 9 that really matter and you can start with points in 10.
Every person ends up being almost the same with a swing of 1 point high or low in the important skills.

Fate is for when people want to tell a story and nobody cares about rules at all.

If you want a good classless system try NWOD normal humans. Works perfect. Look to d10 systems.

[Luccan]

The move to a classless system is the major reason I don't like Multiclassing.

I don't follow this. Multiclassing, even in 5e, is not nearly close enough to being a classless system for that to be a reason not to like it. Unless there's some connecting thread between multiclassing and classless systems I'm not seeing here.

[Clistenes]

None of those things exist in 5e.

Yeah, I forgot this thread was about 5th edition...

But my point still stands that, save having a lot of mystical knowledge, Elric does nothing by himself that requires him to have many levels in any class...

[Vaz]

I don't follow this. Multiclassing, even in 5e, is not nearly close enough to being a classless system for that to be a reason not to like it. Unless there's some connecting thread between multiclassing and classless systems I'm not seeing here.

There is also nothing stopping you in a classless system from playing a particular archetype. Playing Skyrim, I enjoyed being able to play as a Heavily Armoured 2 handed warrior using Enchantment, I enjoyed being a Lightly Armoured Archer using Illusion, and I enjoyed being a Mage using Alchemy. I also enjoyed playing different archetypes, such as a Heavily Armoured Archer or Warmage, or an Unarmoured Assassin using Necromancy to raise Undead in people's homes to kill people using their own family members.

Not entirely sure why classless systems are that much different than a perfect system that has a single class to fulfil every possible archetype.

[Beelzebubba]

I think part of my issue is that the build relies on grabbing Expertise, which is a legal mechanic that I find questionable, particularly when it comes to multiclassing, at least in terms of multiclassing for Expertise.

Well, it does use a skill that the Rogue actually has on it's list, so it's not like grabbing Rogue to double down on something completely unrelated.

[Pex]

General consensus among everyone I've talked to about it, both those I played with using it, and outside my gaming circle since then: very overpowered and abusable.

I liked it but agreed. I once turned a cleric into a paladin but stronger. It had everything a paladin did with a bit more spellcasting power. It was for a munchkin game I won't get into except to say two players wanted to play githzerai for the spell resistance, so I wasn't trying to be reasonable. I got greedy to do a perfect match so it cost me losing access to some magic item use, but I would have been fine not having the paladin HD and weapon proficiency if I actually cared about being reasonable for the game. There was out of game drama involved that contributed to my now infamous cynical contempt of tyrannical DMing and Jerk players.